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Re: [SkateFans] Pros Whining about Skaters(was Nancy Kerrigan's Reflections on Ice)

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  • Fred Goss
    I agree 100 percent with whoever wrote that the ISU killed pro skating That was their clear goal and they pretty well succeeded --by allowing skaters tomake
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 9, 2007
      I agree 100 percent with whoever wrote that the ISU "killed pro skating" That was their clear goal and they pretty well succeeded --by allowing skaters tomake real money while remaining "eligible" Kwan, Eldredge, Bourne/Kratz..the list of skaters who continued to compete as eligibles years after they would have turned pro under the "old system" goes on.

      And I can't blame Tara or Sarah at all. Injuries and natural growth derailed their potential for long pro careers...or looked at another way, Tara decided she'd rather be an actress and Sarah a college student...who can begrudge them their own career choices?

      Fred


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Susan
      To: SkateFans@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:20 AM
      Subject: Re: [SkateFans] Pros Whining about Skaters(was Nancy Kerrigan's Reflections on Ice)


      Virginia Blalock wrote:

      >
      >
      >I did not see the special, but honestly, I am sick and tired of these
      >pros blaming the "next generation" for killing pro skating.
      >
      To me, it really wasn't entirely a question of conscious choices as it
      was health and the delayed attack of the puberty monster for the ladies
      O champions and the absence of any US (or even Canadian or English)
      Olympic gold medals in men's singles in nearly 2 decades. If Baiul,
      Tara & Sarah Hughes had skated as long and as well as Kristi Y or
      Katerina Witt after their gold medals, pro skating would be in better
      shape today, regardless of the choices anyone else made.

      Susan McC

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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    • Fred Goss
      I agree with Trish and add that if Tara wants to be an actress and Sarah a college student, those are their choices..I fail to see where either had an
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 9, 2007
        I agree with Trish and add that if Tara wants to be an actress and Sarah a college student, those are their choices..I fail to see where either had an obligation to make pro skating more lucrative for others.

        Itmay also be that physical factors prevent either from having a long pro career; again nothing much they could do about that.

        Fred
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: trishsensei@...
        To: SkateFans@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:06 AM
        Subject: Re: [SkateFans] Pros Whining about Skaters(was Nancy Kerrigan's Reflections on Ice)


        If the pro ranks want to attract new talent, they need to offer the skaters better opportunities to make a living than the ISU. Until they can do that, they are just whining, and it's unfair to blame their colleagues for making that choice.

        Trish

        -------------- Original message ----------------------
        From: Virginia Blalock <virginia@...>
        > At 09:50 PM 1/9/2007, Kim wrote:
        >
        > >I did agree with what
        > >she said about Sara and Tara disappearing from skating and Kristi,
        > >Katarina Witt, and herself only being able to skate so long. For as
        > >deep as the US has been the last 10 years, there is nothing to show
        > >for it in the pro skating world.
        >
        > I did not see the special, but honestly, I am sick and tired of these
        > pros blaming the "next generation" for killing pro skating. The ISU
        > made changes that made it possible for skaters to still keep
        > eligibility and still make money. The skating scene has changed and
        > these pros need to get over it. One may have a legitimate point that
        > the ISU might have killed skating(or contributed to it) but if the
        > pro world wants more people in it, they need more than Disson shows
        > to entice the skaters.
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > No virus found in this outgoing message.
        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.7/620 - Release Date: 1/8/2007 4:12 PM
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/571 - Release Date: 12/5/06 11:50 AM


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Fred Goss
        Sorry Folks, another post from me, very similar to this one, will appear shortly because I thought I had accidentally deleted this one before sending. I would
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 9, 2007
          Sorry Folks, another post from me, very similar to this one, will appear shortly because I thought I had accidentally deleted this one before sending.

          I would also add that we have to blame the "glut" of pro skating that existed for a few years as part of today's problems..much of it was interesting and/or entertaining, but there was just too much, more than the market could support for long.

          It is also interesting to hear Nancy Kerrigan complain about the decline of pro skating when remarks like her famous "It really doesnt matter how well you skate, you get the same money either way" did very little to enhance the image of pro skating.

          Fred



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • trishsensei@comcast.net
          I don t disagree - an interesting opportunity is more appealing than a boring one, but if you re broke *any* opportunity will do. Trish ... From: capcomgr
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 10, 2007
            I don't disagree - an interesting opportunity is more appealing than a boring one, but if you're broke *any* opportunity will do.

            Trish
            -------------- Original message ----------------------
            From: "capcomgr" <capcomop@...>
            > I think it is more than just "a living" opportunities, they need to
            > be INTERESTING opportunities. The big names could and did make money
            > as eligibles and so are not bound for the circus route in an attempt
            > to make a living. A big name could of course make a living shaking
            > booty in the repetitive themed cookie cutter shows, but obviously
            > something more interesting exists! There was a time when the World
            > Pro title was taken seriously and gave the pro skaters something more
            > than shaking booty to another mediocre live singer or being forced to
            > skate to whatever happens to be on the Top Ten pop chart this week
            > (cough, cough SOI cough, cough). Remember Improv on Ice? Now that was
            > interesting as a viewer and I can imagine what it was like as a
            > skater.
            > I figure that if a concept is boring to hardcore skating fans, it is
            > probably not that much more interesting to the skaters!
            > --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, trishsensei@... wrote:
            > >
            > > If the pro ranks want to attract new talent, they need to offer the
            > skaters better opportunities to make a living than the ISU. Until
            > they can do that, they are just whining, and it's unfair to blame
            > their colleagues for making that choice.
            > >
            > > Trish
            >
            >
            > -------------- Original message ----------------------
            > > From: Virginia Blalock <virginia@...>
            > > > At 09:50 PM 1/9/2007, Kim wrote:
            > > >
            > > > >I did agree with what
            > > > >she said about Sara and Tara disappearing from skating and
            > Kristi,
            > > > >Katarina Witt, and herself only being able to skate so long. For
            > as
            > > > >deep as the US has been the last 10 years, there is nothing to
            > show
            > > > >for it in the pro skating world.
            > > >
            > > > I did not see the special, but honestly, I am sick and tired of
            > these
            > > > pros blaming the "next generation" for killing pro skating. The
            > ISU
            > > > made changes that made it possible for skaters to still keep
            > > > eligibility and still make money. The skating scene has changed
            > and
            > > > these pros need to get over it. One may have a legitimate point
            > that
            > > > the ISU might have killed skating(or contributed to it) but if
            > the
            > > > pro world wants more people in it, they need more than Disson
            > shows
            > > > to entice the skaters.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --
            > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
            > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > > > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.7/620 - Release Date:
            > 1/8/2007 4:12 PM
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • capcomgr
            If you are broke, absolutely, however Kerrigan was singling out Kwan, Hughes etc in her comments (my assumption is that she feels that if a big name headlines
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 10, 2007
              If you are broke, absolutely, however Kerrigan was singling out Kwan,
              Hughes etc in her comments (my assumption is that she feels that if a
              big name headlines a show it creates work for the lesser known names
              as well) and these folks certainly don't need just any old
              opportunity to avoid being broke. I would imagine that if, as
              Kerrigan is wishing, the BIG names are going to get into the game
              there needs to be more than just any old opportunity to put on a pair
              of skates and earn a paycheck.


              --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, trishsensei@... wrote:
              >
              > I don't disagree - an interesting opportunity is more appealing
              than a boring one, but if you're broke *any* opportunity will do.
              >
              > Trish
              > -------------- Original message ----------------------
              > From: "capcomgr" <capcomop@...>
              > > I think it is more than just "a living" opportunities, they need
              to
              > > be INTERESTING opportunities. The big names could and did make
              money
              > > as eligibles and so are not bound for the circus route in an
              attempt
              > > to make a living. A big name could of course make a living
              shaking
              > > booty in the repetitive themed cookie cutter shows, but obviously
              > > something more interesting exists! There was a time when the
              World
              > > Pro title was taken seriously and gave the pro skaters something
              more
              > > than shaking booty to another mediocre live singer or being
              forced to
              > > skate to whatever happens to be on the Top Ten pop chart this
              week
              > > (cough, cough SOI cough, cough). Remember Improv on Ice? Now that
              was
              > > interesting as a viewer and I can imagine what it was like as a
              > > skater.
              > > I figure that if a concept is boring to hardcore skating fans, it
              is
              > > probably not that much more interesting to the skaters!
              > > --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, trishsensei@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > If the pro ranks want to attract new talent, they need to offer
              the
              > > skaters better opportunities to make a living than the ISU.
              Until
              > > they can do that, they are just whining, and it's unfair to blame
              > > their colleagues for making that choice.
              > > >
              > > > Trish
              > >
              > >
              > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
              > > > From: Virginia Blalock <virginia@>
              > > > > At 09:50 PM 1/9/2007, Kim wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > >I did agree with what
              > > > > >she said about Sara and Tara disappearing from skating and
              > > Kristi,
              > > > > >Katarina Witt, and herself only being able to skate so long.
              For
              > > as
              > > > > >deep as the US has been the last 10 years, there is nothing
              to
              > > show
              > > > > >for it in the pro skating world.
              > > > >
              > > > > I did not see the special, but honestly, I am sick and tired
              of
              > > these
              > > > > pros blaming the "next generation" for killing pro skating.
              The
              > > ISU
              > > > > made changes that made it possible for skaters to still keep
              > > > > eligibility and still make money. The skating scene has
              changed
              > > and
              > > > > these pros need to get over it. One may have a legitimate
              point
              > > that
              > > > > the ISU might have killed skating(or contributed to it) but
              if
              > > the
              > > > > pro world wants more people in it, they need more than Disson
              > > shows
              > > > > to entice the skaters.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --
              > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
              > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > > > > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.7/620 - Release
              Date:
              > > 1/8/2007 4:12 PM
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • denbydilbert2001
              ... whether ... Did Lund out himself while he was at it? Meagan Leigh
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 10, 2007
                --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "iaustin_28" <Austin_I@...> wrote:
                >
                > Has anyone else caught Kerrigan's how "Reflections on Ice -
                > Countdown to Nationals" being shown on ABC affiliates? I caught it
                > this past weekend, and I understand it's been on other affiliates
                > recently.
                >
                > Overall the show was a generic preview of Nationals. After all
                > these years, I still think Kerrigan is awful on TV. But two other
                > things in the show bothered me more:

                > 2. Nancy and Mark Lund were just awful to Johnny Weir. Whether you
                > like Johnny's theatrics and his skating or not, they were out of
                > line. Mark Lund felt the need to announce that Weir is gay,
                whether
                > Johnny wants to admit it or not. Both raved about Lysacek and say
                > that Evan's image, not Johnny's, is what the public wants, and
                > therefore, Evan should win. I thought they were both out of line.
                >
                > I see someone has posted the men's preview clip on Youtube, if
                > you're interested:
                > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwDarorjN6c
                >
                > Ingrid
                >

                Did Lund out himself while he was at it?

                Meagan Leigh
              • annmjensen
                ... Mr. Lund said of Johnny: he is not representitive of my community . So I guess he was implying it, yeah.
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 10, 2007
                  --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "denbydilbert2001"
                  <denbydilbert2001@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "iaustin_28" <Austin_I@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Has anyone else caught Kerrigan's how "Reflections on Ice -
                  > > Countdown to Nationals" being shown on ABC affiliates? I caught it
                  > > this past weekend, and I understand it's been on other affiliates
                  > > recently.
                  > >
                  > > Overall the show was a generic preview of Nationals. After all
                  > > these years, I still think Kerrigan is awful on TV. But two other
                  > > things in the show bothered me more:
                  >
                  > > 2. Nancy and Mark Lund were just awful to Johnny Weir. Whether you
                  > > like Johnny's theatrics and his skating or not, they were out of
                  > > line. Mark Lund felt the need to announce that Weir is gay,
                  > whether
                  > > Johnny wants to admit it or not. Both raved about Lysacek and say
                  > > that Evan's image, not Johnny's, is what the public wants, and
                  > > therefore, Evan should win. I thought they were both out of line.
                  > >
                  > > I see someone has posted the men's preview clip on Youtube, if
                  > > you're interested:
                  > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwDarorjN6c
                  > >
                  > > Ingrid
                  > >
                  >
                  > Did Lund out himself while he was at it?
                  >
                  > Meagan Leigh
                  >
                  Mr. Lund said of Johnny: "he is not representitive of my community".
                  So I guess he was implying it, yeah.
                • Sandra Loosemore
                  ... I m kind of puzzled how anyone could possibly think that Mark Lund wasn t out long before this. -Sandra the cynic
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 10, 2007
                    Re:

                    > > Did Lund out himself while he was at it?

                    I'm kind of puzzled how anyone could possibly think that Mark Lund
                    wasn't "out" long before this.

                    -Sandra the cynic
                  • Nicole
                    I just caught this now through youtube. And what the heck is their problem? Yes, Johnny s a little behind this year, and it s probably going to be Evan s
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 11, 2007
                      I just caught this now through youtube. And what the heck is their
                      problem? Yes, Johnny's a little behind this year, and it's probably
                      going to be Evan's year for nationals unless Johnny can really put
                      it together. And its fantastic that Nancy thinks that Evan is a
                      great kid blah blah blah. His sexuality shouldn't be a factor in
                      his skating, first and foremost. Sure, Johnny is probably gay, but
                      whose business is that besides his? The bash on the costumes?
                      Please, they're a lot nicer than most of the guys out on the ice.
                      Evan is wearing black on black on black on black. Hard to be
                      controversial wearing one color. And on what planet was The Swan a
                      bad program that reached nobody? It got him second place after the
                      short program at the Olympics, didn't it? With that "balletic
                      style" that no one wants to see, none the less. Maybe Marc Lund
                      should go back to commentating on Skating with Celebrities or
                      whatever other nonsense he's been up to recently. I'm not Johnny's
                      OMGBIGGESTFANEVER, but I think that he deserves a little bit more
                      respect than he's being shown in that clip.

                      --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "iaustin_28" <Austin_I@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Has anyone else caught Kerrigan's how "Reflections on Ice -
                      > Countdown to Nationals" being shown on ABC affiliates? I caught
                      it
                      > this past weekend, and I understand it's been on other affiliates
                      > recently.
                      >
                      > Overall the show was a generic preview of Nationals. After all
                      > these years, I still think Kerrigan is awful on TV. But two other
                      > things in the show bothered me more:
                      >
                      > 1. After a segment on Kwan and her career, Kerrigan was boo-hooing
                      > about how Kwan has singlehandedly killed pro skating, along with
                      > Lipinski, Hughes, and now Cohen. How DARE they choose different
                      > paths, rather than choosing those god-awful Disson shows...
                      >
                      > 2. Nancy and Mark Lund were just awful to Johnny Weir. Whether
                      you
                      > like Johnny's theatrics and his skating or not, they were out of
                      > line. Mark Lund felt the need to announce that Weir is gay,
                      whether
                      > Johnny wants to admit it or not. Both raved about Lysacek and say
                      > that Evan's image, not Johnny's, is what the public wants, and
                      > therefore, Evan should win. I thought they were both out of line.
                      >
                      > I see someone has posted the men's preview clip on Youtube, if
                      > you're interested:
                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwDarorjN6c
                      >
                      > Ingrid
                      >
                    • Susan
                      ... She also didn t bother keeping up her skills for very long. Frankly, the general tedium and sloppiness of her post-eligible skating was part of the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 11, 2007
                        Fred Goss wrote:

                        >
                        >It is also interesting to hear Nancy Kerrigan complain about the decline of pro skating when remarks like her famous "It really doesnt matter how well you skate, you get the same money either way" did very little to enhance the image of pro skating.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        She also didn't bother keeping up her skills for very long. Frankly,
                        the general tedium and sloppiness of her post-eligible skating was part
                        of the problem, so I find it odd she is acting like she was being a
                        trouper while others were letting down the side.

                        Susan McC
                      • revjoelle@aol.com
                        I m just surprised Mark Lund hasn t threatened to sue everyone who s criticized him yet. Joelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 12, 2007
                          I'm just surprised Mark Lund hasn't threatened to sue everyone who's
                          criticized him yet.

                          Joelle


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • iceickles
                          I think he grew outta that stage when karma took a delicious bite outta his ass.
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 12, 2007
                            I think he grew outta that stage when karma took a delicious bite outta
                            his ass. <G>


                            --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, revjoelle@... wrote:
                            >
                            > I'm just surprised Mark Lund hasn't threatened to sue everyone who's
                            > criticized him yet.
                            >
                            > Joelle
                            >
                            >

                            >
                          • Kaye Cooper
                            I m not a big fan of Johnny off the ice, but I agree. They were all way out of line. Nicole wrote: I just caught this now through
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 13, 2007
                              I'm not a big fan of Johnny off the ice, but I agree. They were all way out of line.



                              Nicole <knitcole22@...> wrote:
                              I just caught this now through youtube. And what the heck is their
                              problem? Yes, Johnny's a little behind this year, and it's probably
                              going to be Evan's year for nationals unless Johnny can really put
                              it together. And its fantastic that Nancy thinks that Evan is a
                              great kid blah blah blah. His sexuality shouldn't be a factor in
                              his skating, first and foremost. Sure, Johnny is probably gay, but
                              whose business is that besides his? The bash on the costumes?
                              Please, they're a lot nicer than most of the guys out on the ice.
                              Evan is wearing black on black on black on black. Hard to be
                              controversial wearing one color. And on what planet was The Swan a
                              bad program that reached nobody? It got him second place after the
                              short program at the Olympics, didn't it? With that "balletic
                              style" that no one wants to see, none the less. Maybe Marc Lund
                              should go back to commentating on Skating with Celebrities or
                              whatever other nonsense he's been up to recently. I'm not Johnny's
                              OMGBIGGESTFANEVER, but I think that he deserves a little bit more
                              respect than he's being shown in that clip.

                              --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "iaustin_28" <Austin_I@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Has anyone else caught Kerrigan's how "Reflections on Ice -
                              > Countdown to Nationals" being shown on ABC affiliates? I caught
                              it
                              > this past weekend, and I understand it's been on other affiliates
                              > recently.
                              >
                              > Overall the show was a generic preview of Nationals. After all
                              > these years, I still think Kerrigan is awful on TV. But two other
                              > things in the show bothered me more:
                              >
                              > 1. After a segment on Kwan and her career, Kerrigan was boo-hooing
                              > about how Kwan has singlehandedly killed pro skating, along with
                              > Lipinski, Hughes, and now Cohen. How DARE they choose different
                              > paths, rather than choosing those god-awful Disson shows...
                              >
                              > 2. Nancy and Mark Lund were just awful to Johnny Weir. Whether
                              you
                              > like Johnny's theatrics and his skating or not, they were out of
                              > line. Mark Lund felt the need to announce that Weir is gay,
                              whether
                              > Johnny wants to admit it or not. Both raved about Lysacek and say
                              > that Evan's image, not Johnny's, is what the public wants, and
                              > therefore, Evan should win. I thought they were both out of line.
                              >
                              > I see someone has posted the men's preview clip on Youtube, if
                              > you're interested:
                              > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwDarorjN6c
                              >
                              > Ingrid
                              >






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                              with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Fred Goss
                              I remember nearly 20 years ago when Christopher Bowman was evidently spending as much time drinking, drugging and wenching as training and not too secretly it
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 13, 2007
                                I remember nearly 20 years ago when Christopher Bowman was evidently spending as much time drinking, drugging and wenching as training and not too secretly it appeared that TPTB at USFSA were actually "pleased" that our top male skater was a "real man"

                                I doubt that attitude has changed very much.

                                Fred
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Kaye Cooper
                                To: SkateFans@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 7:57 AM
                                Subject: Re: [SkateFans] Re: Nancy Kerrigan's Reflections on Ice


                                I'm not a big fan of Johnny off the ice, but I agree. They were all way out of line.



                                Nicole <knitcole22@...> wrote:
                                I just caught this now through youtube. And what the heck is their
                                problem? Yes, Johnny's a little behind this year, and it's probably
                                going to be Evan's year for nationals unless Johnny can really put
                                it together. And its fantastic that Nancy thinks that Evan is a
                                great kid blah blah blah. His sexuality shouldn't be a factor in
                                his skating, first and foremost. Sure, Johnny is probably gay, but
                                whose business is that besides his? The bash on the costumes?
                                Please, they're a lot nicer than most of the guys out on the ice.
                                Evan is wearing black on black on black on black. Hard to be
                                controversial wearing one color. And on what planet was The Swan a
                                bad program that reached nobody? It got him second place after the
                                short program at the Olympics, didn't it? With that "balletic
                                style" that no one wants to see, none the less. Maybe Marc Lund
                                should go back to commentating on Skating with Celebrities or
                                whatever other nonsense he's been up to recently. I'm not Johnny's
                                OMGBIGGESTFANEVER, but I think that he deserves a little bit more
                                respect than he's being shown in that clip.

                                --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "iaustin_28" <Austin_I@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Has anyone else caught Kerrigan's how "Reflections on Ice -
                                > Countdown to Nationals" being shown on ABC affiliates? I caught
                                it
                                > this past weekend, and I understand it's been on other affiliates
                                > recently.
                                >
                                > Overall the show was a generic preview of Nationals. After all
                                > these years, I still think Kerrigan is awful on TV. But two other
                                > things in the show bothered me more:
                                >
                                > 1. After a segment on Kwan and her career, Kerrigan was boo-hooing
                                > about how Kwan has singlehandedly killed pro skating, along with
                                > Lipinski, Hughes, and now Cohen. How DARE they choose different
                                > paths, rather than choosing those god-awful Disson shows...
                                >
                                > 2. Nancy and Mark Lund were just awful to Johnny Weir. Whether
                                you
                                > like Johnny's theatrics and his skating or not, they were out of
                                > line. Mark Lund felt the need to announce that Weir is gay,
                                whether
                                > Johnny wants to admit it or not. Both raved about Lysacek and say
                                > that Evan's image, not Johnny's, is what the public wants, and
                                > therefore, Evan should win. I thought they were both out of line.
                                >
                                > I see someone has posted the men's preview clip on Youtube, if
                                > you're interested:
                                > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwDarorjN6c
                                >
                                > Ingrid
                                >

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                                Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
                                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/571 - Release Date: 12/5/06 11:50 AM


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