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Re: [SimplySolar] Re: Pex vs. Copper [vs CPVC]

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  • Snkdavis
    Hi Larry, Not necessarily. I went with a closed loop here since my collectors are at the end of my yard, which is lower than the house, but not lower than
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 26 12:44 PM
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    Hi Larry,
     
    Not necessarily.  I went with a "closed loop" here since my collectors are at the end of my yard, which is lower than the house, but not lower than the bottom of the basement floor, where my pump is. 
     
    There is virtually no additional plumbing, an old iced tea jar performs the functions of ensuring pressure never builds up and eliminates any air bubbles.  Here is a picture:
     
     
    JarSmall.jpg
     
     
    Having done both drain back and closed loop, I would choose drain back if I could ensure a slope, but otherwise, I would have no hesitation to do another closed loop at all.  It is very easy.
     
    Take care,
    Scott
    MD



     
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Larry Swanson <swanson1485@...>
    To: SimplySolar <SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Thu, Apr 26, 2012 3:34 pm
    Subject: RE: [SimplySolar] Re: Pex vs. Copper [vs CPVC]

     
    Hi Wayne,
    Why closed loop?, Physical restrictions?  The closed loop is much more plumbing to consider, antifreeze, pressure tank, relief valve and such.
    Larry
    WI
     
    From: SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
    Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:20 PM
    To: SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [SimplySolar] Re: Pex vs. Copper [vs CPVC]
     
     
    Hi Scott, Thank you for the details!

    I might also add, the purpose of this initial build is to supply heat for hot water.
    - If I can sustain enough heat in the winter (doubtful), I may consider hooking up a heat exchanger to my HVAC unites as well.

    I hadn't seen anything about using CPVC (or this vid)...you may just have me convinced. :-)
    - If I were to do this (closed loop):
    -- I have space for a 6' x 8' collector.
    -- I could space CPVC horizontally 2" on center.
    -- Increase performance by bending fla shing... (thoughts?)
    -- Automatic cooling fan in collector triggered at 210 *F
    ---- Fan could run off of same PV power as the circulation pump.

    BIG question now...stick with Plex of go with copper in the heat transfer/storage tank?
    How many feet of heat exchanger tube should I plan on using (either plex or copper).

    If you don't mind double checking my thoughts/ideas, please tell me if I'm missing something obvious with this part of my planning.

    Thanks again,

    Wayne

    --- In SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com, Snkdavis <SNKDavis@...> wrote:
    >
    >
    > Hi Wayne,
    >
    > Great questions! Responses inserted:
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Wayne <wm.changetheworld@...>
    > To: SimplySolar <SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com>
    > Sent: Wed, Apr 25, 2012 4:30 pm
    > Subject: [SimplySolar] Pex vs. Copper
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Preface - I'm in the research phase and getting ready to put together a build list for a hydro solar collector.
    >
    > I'm sure you have already answered this question(s) and I'm overlooking it!
    >
    > 1. Are you still satisfied with the performance of the Pex tubing (ie: doesn't copper conduct much better and last longer in high temps?)?
    >
    > ** The pex collector is still working great after several years, but I'm even more excited about the CPVC collector. Please see this video before continuing:
    >
    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP8H5IOTwYU
    > ** Copper conducts much better, but that is only part of the story. There is a heat transfer bottle neck resulting from the flowing fluid that negates much of th e otherwise good heat transfer benefits of copper. With the much lower cost of CPVC, you can have quite a bit more contact area, for less cost, which in early testing appears to efficiently offset the copper benefits.
    >
    > ** Also, Gary just did a test within the past few days showing CPVC should be okay to 220F for our applications. If you build at a high tilt angle for the winter sun, that should be sufficient to survive a stagnation event.
    >
    > 2. If you were to build another, would you go with Pex or Copper?
    > ** CPVC.
    >
    > 3. Are you still satisfied with your choice of single Horizontal vs. Vertical collector?
    >
    > ** The video shows a 8' X 8' with 32 parallel risers. If I retrofit my 24' X 8' collector, I will run the parallel risers horizontally (hisers).
    >
    > 4. If you had it to do all over again, is there anything that you would change about your design?
    > ** Using CPVC will add a lot of contact area and overcome the low flow resistance of a long single run of serpentine pex.
    >
    >
    > Hope that's not too much...AND Thank You in advance!
    > ** Glad to help!
    >
    > Take care,
    > Scott
    > MD
    >
    > Wayne
    >

    No virus found in this message.
    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
    Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2411/4960 - Release Date: 04/26/12
  • Snkdavis
    I should add that you do have to mix in environmentally friendly glycol to keep your fluid from freezing, but depending on your run, you probably won t need
    Message 2 of 10 , Apr 26 12:47 PM
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      I should add that you do have to mix in environmentally friendly glycol to keep your fluid from freezing, but depending on your run, you probably won't need that much and it will last a decade.
       
      Scott
      MD


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Snkdavis <SNKDavis@...>
      To: SimplySolar <SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thu, Apr 26, 2012 3:44 pm
      Subject: Re: [SimplySolar] Re: Pex vs. Copper [vs CPVC] [1 Attachment]

       
      [Attachment(s) from Snkdavis included below]
      Hi Larry,
       
      Not necessarily.  I went with a "closed loop" here since my collectors are at the end of my yard, which is lower than the house, but not lower than the bottom of the basement floor, where my pump is. 
       
      There is virtually no additional plumbing, an old iced tea jar performs the functions of ensuring pressure never builds up and eliminates any air bubbles.  Here is a picture:
       
       
      JarSmall.jpg
       
       
      Having done both drain back and closed loop, I would choose drain back if I could ensure a slope, but otherwise, I would have no hesitation to do another closed loop at all.  It is very easy.
       
      Take care,
      Scott
      MD



       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Larry Swanson <swanson1485@...>
      To: SimplySolar <SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thu, Apr 26, 2012 3:34 pm
      Subject: RE: [SimplySolar] Re: Pex vs. Copper [vs CPVC]

       
      Hi Wayne,
      Why closed loop?, Physical restrictions?  The closed loop is much more plumbing to consider, antifreeze, pressure tank, relief valve and such.
      Larry
      WI
       
      From: SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
      Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:20 PM
      To: SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [SimplySolar] Re: Pex vs. Copper [vs CPVC]
       
       
      Hi Scott, Thank you for the details!

      I might also add, the purpose of this initial build is to supply heat for hot water.
      - If I can sustain enough heat in the winter (doubtful), I may consider hooking up a heat exchanger to my HVAC unites as well.

      I hadn't seen anything about using CPVC (or this vid)...you may just have me convinced. :-)
      - If I were to do this (closed loop):
      -- I have space for a 6' x 8' collector.
      -- I could space CPVC horizontally 2" on center.
      -- Increase performance by bending fla shing... (thoughts?)
      -- Automatic cooling fan in collector triggered at 210 *F
      ---- Fan could run off of same PV power as the circulation pump.

      BIG question now...stick with Plex of go with copper in the heat transfer/storage tank?
      How many feet of heat exchanger tube should I plan on using (either plex or copper).

      If you don't mind double checking my thoughts/ideas, please tell me if I'm missing something obvious with this part of my planning.

      Thanks again,

      Wayne

      --- In SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com, Snkdavis <SNKDavis@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Wayne,
      >
      > Great questions! Responses inserted:
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Wayne <wm.changetheworld@...>
      > To: SimplySolar <SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wed, Apr 25, 2012 4:30 pm
      > Subject: [SimplySolar] Pex vs. Copper
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Preface - I'm in the research phase and getting ready to put together a build list for a hydro solar collector.
      >
      > I'm sure you have already answered this question(s) and I'm overlooking it!
      >
      > 1. Are you still satisfied with the performance of the Pex tubing (ie: doesn't copper conduct much better and last longer in high temps?)?
      >
      > ** The pex collector is still working great after several years, but I'm even more excited about the CPVC collector. Please see this video before continuing:
      >
      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP8H5IOTwYU
      > ** Copper conducts much better, but that is only part of the story. There is a heat transfer bottle neck resulting from the flowing fluid that negates much of th e otherwise good heat transfer benefits of copper. With the much lower cost of CPVC, you can have quite a bit more contact area, for less cost, which in early testing appears to efficiently offset the copper benefits.
      >
      > ** Also, Gary just did a test within the past few days showing CPVC should be okay to 220F for our applications. If you build at a high tilt angle for the winter sun, that should be sufficient to survive a stagnation event.
      >
      > 2. If you were to build another, would you go with Pex or Copper?
      > ** CPVC.
      >
      > 3. Are you still satisfied with your choice of single Horizontal vs. Vertical collector?
      >
      > ** The video shows a 8' X 8' with 32 parallel risers. If I retrofit my 24' X 8' collector, I will run the parallel risers horizontally (hisers).
      >
      > 4. If you had it to do all over again, is there anything that you would change about your design?
      > ** Using CPVC will add a lot of contact area and overcome the low flow resistance of a long single run of serpentine pex.
      >
      >
      > Hope that's not too much...AND Thank You in advance!
      > ** Glad to help!
      >
      > Take care,
      > Scott
      > MD
      >
      > Wayne
      >

      No virus found in this message.
      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2411/4960 - Release Date: 04/26/12
    • Wayne
      Hi Larry, I think it s worth the extra work for the added value of less hassle free operations. I live in SC where we have a warm climate and rarely freezes.
      Message 3 of 10 , Apr 26 1:23 PM
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        Hi Larry,

        I think it's worth the extra work for the added value of less hassle free operations. I live in SC where we have a warm climate and rarely freezes. I also can't put this on the roof/up high so a drain back system isn't an option. Overall, I feel that it's the best choice.

        I'm open to ideas!

        W.



        --- In SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Swanson" <swanson1485@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Wayne,
        > Why closed loop?, Physical restrictions? The closed loop is much more
        > plumbing to consider, antifreeze, pressure tank, relief valve and such.
        > Larry
        > WI
        >
        > From: SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Wayne
        > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:20 PM
        > To: SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [SimplySolar] Re: Pex vs. Copper [vs CPVC]
        >
        >
        > Hi Scott, Thank you for the details!
        >
        > I might also add, the purpose of this initial build is to supply heat for
        > hot water.
        > - If I can sustain enough heat in the winter (doubtful), I may consider
        > hooking up a heat exchanger to my HVAC unites as well.
        >
        > I hadn't seen anything about using CPVC (or this vid)...you may just have me
        > convinced. :-)
        > - If I were to do this (closed loop):
        > -- I have space for a 6' x 8' collector.
        > -- I could space CPVC horizontally 2" on center.
        > -- Increase performance by bending flashing... (thoughts?)
        > -- Automatic cooling fan in collector triggered at 210 *F
        > ---- Fan could run off of same PV power as the circulation pump.
        >
        > BIG question now...stick with Plex of go with copper in the heat
        > transfer/storage tank?
        > How many feet of heat exchanger tube should I plan on using (either plex or
        > copper).
        >
        > If you don't mind double checking my thoughts/ideas, please tell me if I'm
        > missing something obvious with this part of my planning.
        >
        > Thanks again,
        >
        > Wayne
        >
        > --- In SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SimplySolar%40yahoogroups.com> ,
        > Snkdavis <SNKDavis@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Wayne,
        > >
        > > Great questions! Responses inserted:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Wayne <wm.changetheworld@>
        > > To: SimplySolar <SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:SimplySolar%40yahoogroups.com> >
        > > Sent: Wed, Apr 25, 2012 4:30 pm
        > > Subject: [SimplySolar] Pex vs. Copper
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Preface - I'm in the research phase and getting ready to put together a
        > build list for a hydro solar collector.
        > >
        > > I'm sure you have already answered this question(s) and I'm overlooking
        > it!
        > >
        > > 1. Are you still satisfied with the performance of the Pex tubing (ie:
        > doesn't copper conduct much better and last longer in high temps?)?
        > >
        > > ** The pex collector is still working great after several years, but I'm
        > even more excited about the CPVC collector. Please see this video before
        > continuing:
        > >
        > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP8H5IOTwYU
        > > ** Copper conducts much better, but that is only part of the story. There
        > is a heat transfer bottle neck resulting from the flowing fluid that negates
        > much of the otherwise good heat transfer benefits of copper. With the much
        > lower cost of CPVC, you can have quite a bit more contact area, for less
        > cost, which in early testing appears to efficiently offset the copper
        > benefits.
        > >
        > > ** Also, Gary just did a test within the past few days showing CPVC should
        > be okay to 220F for our applications. If you build at a high tilt angle for
        > the winter sun, that should be sufficient to survive a stagnation event.
        > >
        > > 2. If you were to build another, would you go with Pex or Copper?
        > > ** CPVC.
        > >
        > > 3. Are you still satisfied with your choice of single Horizontal vs.
        > Vertical collector?
        > >
        > > ** The video shows a 8' X 8' with 32 parallel risers. If I retrofit my 24'
        > X 8' collector, I will run the parallel risers horizontally (hisers).
        > >
        > > 4. If you had it to do all over again, is there anything that you would
        > change about your design?
        > > ** Using CPVC will add a lot of contact area and overcome the low flow
        > resistance of a long single run of serpentine pex.
        > >
        > >
        > > Hope that's not too much...AND Thank You in advance!
        > > ** Glad to help!
        > >
        > > Take care,
        > > Scott
        > > MD
        > >
        > > Wayne
        > >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > No virus found in this message.
        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2411/4960 - Release Date: 04/26/12
        >
      • Wayne
        An interesting thought Peter, Thanks! W.
        Message 4 of 10 , Apr 26 1:24 PM
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          An interesting thought Peter, Thanks!

          W.


          --- In SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com, "Peter J. Thomas" <pj_thomas@...> wrote:
          >
          > On 4/26/2012 3:19 PM, Wayne wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Scott, Thank you for the details!
          > >
          > > I might also add, the purpose of this initial build is to supply heat
          > > for hot water.
          > > - If I can sustain enough heat in the winter (doubtful), I may
          > > consider hooking up a heat exchanger to my HVAC unites as well.
          > >
          > > I hadn't seen anything about using CPVC (or this vid)...you may just
          > > have me convinced. :-)
          > > - If I were to do this (closed loop):
          > > -- I have space for a 6' x 8' collector.
          > > -- I could space CPVC horizontally 2" on center.
          > > -- Increase performance by bending flashing... (thoughts?)
          > > -- Automatic cooling fan in collector triggered at 210 *F
          > > ---- Fan could run off of same PV power as the circulation pump.
          > >
          >
          > I contemplating my first solar build. Still in the idea/planning
          > stage. One idea I had to deal with stagnation was to install a pair of
          > automotive cooling thermostats. These are the automatic thermostats in
          > the auto's water cooling system that open and close at a preset
          > temperature. They use the expansion of a wax pellet to open and close a
          > valve at a specific temperature. Prices vary but you could could pick
          > them up for about $6 a piece. One placed on top at about 195 degrees F
          > and one on the bottom at 185 degrees F. This setup would require no
          > wiring and would seal watertight in the normal operating temperature.
          >
          > Again, just an idea, I've never tried it.
          >
          > Peter Thomas
          >
          > >
          > > BIG question now...stick with Plex of go with copper in the heat
          > > transfer/storage tank?
          > > How many feet of heat exchanger tube should I plan on using (either
          > > plex or copper).
          > >
          > > If you don't mind double checking my thoughts/ideas, please tell me if
          > > I'm missing something obvious with this part of my planning.
          > >
          > > Thanks again,
          > >
          > > Wayne
          > >
          > > --- In SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:SimplySolar%40yahoogroups.com>, Snkdavis <SNKDavis@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hi Wayne,
          > > >
          > > > Great questions! Responses inserted:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: Wayne <wm.changetheworld@>
          > > > To: SimplySolar <SimplySolar@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:SimplySolar%40yahoogroups.com>>
          > > > Sent: Wed, Apr 25, 2012 4:30 pm
          > > > Subject: [SimplySolar] Pex vs. Copper
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Preface - I'm in the research phase and getting ready to put
          > > together a build list for a hydro solar collector.
          > > >
          > > > I'm sure you have already answered this question(s) and I'm
          > > overlooking it!
          > > >
          > > > 1. Are you still satisfied with the performance of the Pex tubing
          > > (ie: doesn't copper conduct much better and last longer in high temps?)?
          > > >
          > > > ** The pex collector is still working great after several years, but
          > > I'm even more excited about the CPVC collector. Please see this video
          > > before continuing:
          > > >
          > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP8H5IOTwYU
          > > > ** Copper conducts much better, but that is only part of the story.
          > > There is a heat transfer bottle neck resulting from the flowing fluid
          > > that negates much of the otherwise good heat transfer benefits of
          > > copper. With the much lower cost of CPVC, you can have quite a bit
          > > more contact area, for less cost, which in early testing appears to
          > > efficiently offset the copper benefits.
          > > >
          > > > ** Also, Gary just did a test within the past few days showing CPVC
          > > should be okay to 220F for our applications. If you build at a high
          > > tilt angle for the winter sun, that should be sufficient to survive a
          > > stagnation event.
          > > >
          > > > 2. If you were to build another, would you go with Pex or Copper?
          > > > ** CPVC.
          > > >
          > > > 3. Are you still satisfied with your choice of single Horizontal vs.
          > > Vertical collector?
          > > >
          > > > ** The video shows a 8' X 8' with 32 parallel risers. If I retrofit
          > > my 24' X 8' collector, I will run the parallel risers horizontally
          > > (hisers).
          > > >
          > > > 4. If you had it to do all over again, is there anything that you
          > > would change about your design?
          > > > ** Using CPVC will add a lot of contact area and overcome the low
          > > flow resistance of a long single run of serpentine pex.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hope that's not too much...AND Thank You in advance!
          > > > ** Glad to help!
          > > >
          > > > Take care,
          > > > Scott
          > > > MD
          > > >
          > > > Wayne
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          >
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