Re: [SilmarillionWritersGuild] How little Mr Little Finwe really was? And who burnt in Losgar?
LOL I won’t comment on the names, I think. The professor mixed up some things and put many loose ends which conflict with one another, anyway, like where Orodreth is supposed to be put in the family tree and who is Ereinion’s father. (Hmm. But I am sidetracking here…)
Ah, Fëanor was truly a genius, was he not? *roll eyes* *grin* But the ‘pretty names’ were not only those, actually. Look at Maedhros’ father name: Nelyufinwë, “Third Finwë.” Thought one couldn’t count, eh? *grin* Perhaps that was why his brood mostly chose their mother names over their father ones, except for Curufin. Personally, I think you were right about the “Last Finwë” reasoning, and, to me, “Little Finwë” means just like that, one of the youngest in the family; since “little” doesn’t only mean “small” in physique in its usage in the language (or at least in English). So actually both were quite similar in meaning… apt for a pair of twins.
I’m sorry that I can’t help you with the changing of names (and, subsequently, who is supposed to have died in Losgar). I commend your hard work in researching those baffling contradictions, though. But well, I have tried to research about Ereinion’s geneology before, and since then I vowed to myself never to try to match things that can never be paired over in this universe of his. Even the proff’s son couldn’t do it!
All right. I am rambling… :sheepish: Well, sorry for that, and sorry that I can’t be of much help.
--- On Mon, 8/31/09, hathorsisle <sirielle@...> wrote:
From: hathorsisle <sirielle@...>
Subject: [SilmarillionWritersGuild] How little Mr Little Finwe really was? And who burnt in Losgar?
Date: Monday, August 31, 2009, 9:03 AM
Two things: first - name meaning vs height/built of the twins, second - who finally burnt in Losgar?
Feanor must have been gifted with fantastic imagination to make up such names like "Little Finwe" and "Last Finwe". Those names could have no meaning at all, especially that no further description is given like in the case of Turkafinwe for example. But all the other names had meaning, so do you think it means that both twins were shorter or more slender than the rest of siblings? If so were they average given Maedhros and Celegorm weren't (extra tall, extra strong)? Or does it mean that Pityo was smaller than his twin brother?
Or Feanor was too busy and just gave the simplest "first look" names to focus back on his job ASAP - the newborns were "little" as all the newborns are and "last", definitely, no more babies in the master plan.
The name tree in HoME gives us Pityafinwe/Amrod as Ambarto and Telufinwe/Amras as Ambarussa, which means Pityo was the one who died in burning. But a commentary in HoME XII under the mother names on p.353 explains:
"my father changed the name Ambarto to Umbarto in the list and reversed the names of the twin brothers (see note 62), so that Ambarussa becomes the elder of the two and Ambarto/Umbarto the youngest of Feanor's children, as he is in the legend told here."
"The story first emerged, I think, with the words 'The most authentic seems to be thus: The two twins were both red-haired. Nerdanel gave them both the name Ambarussa ...' It was then, no doubt, that my father changed the name Ambarto to Umbarto in the list and reversed the names of the twin brothers (see note 62), so that Ambarussa becomes the elder of the two and Ambarto/Umbarto the youngest of Feanor's children, as he is in the legend told here.
(...) The twins remained alike, but the elder grew darker in hair, and was more dear to his father."/
To me it means Pityo/Amrod became Ambarussa and survived, Telvo/Amras became Umbarto and died in Losgar. Which is more logical that the one dear to mum wanted to go back, not the older one closer to father.
Why the names on the list hasn't been switched then? To keep original the narration untouched? It misleads, because we check the list not footnotes, a second fixed list would be a better idea, or two options on the original one.
Information in twins bios at TolkienGateway confirms it, but in comments to it I saw a different view regarding Sindarin names, either and now I am not sure anymore:
http://tolkiengatew ay.net/wiki/ Talk:Amrod
So maybe Amrod and Amras should be exchanged on the lists, too? Or it is totally irrelevant for JRRT never finished it, so the names do not match the linguistics?
I just checked "Seven in 07" page and Character of the Month page, but no answer there.