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Re: [SilmarillionWritersGuild] Houseless elves (replacement of query sent without SUBJECT)

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  • Rhapsody
    ... I knew you were still studying this, so that s why I didn t touch fading... :) MR (L&C) describes it best: ... Well, if it was only Lace, yes then I
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
      Dawn Felagund wrote:
      > Oh, Oshun, hand me a can opener, for you have just brought out a can of
      > worms. ;) Elven death and afterlife is one of my favorite research topics.
      >
      > As has been mentioned already, I can see two ways that an Elf can become
      > houseless. One is the normal process of "fading"; the other is the refusal
      > of Namo's call.
      >
      > Fading, in my humble opinion, is one of the most common incorrectly written
      > canon concepts I've encountered. I have been working on an essay on fading
      > for about a year now and have yet to find any proof that "fading" is the
      > same as "death from grief," as fanon commonly represents it. (Full
      > disclosure: I have not finished searching all of the books yet.) It is
      > something very different, and infinitely weirder and more interesting (imho
      > again).

      I knew you were still studying this, so that's why I didn't touch
      fading... :)

      MR (L&C) describes it best:
      <snip>
      > I hope that is helpful. :)
      >
      > One last thing before I shut up and go back to the B2MeM graphic I'm *
      > supposed* to be working on, is to keep in mind the source from which all of
      > this comes. L&C is not, imho (again), the most reliable of sources. It is
      > written by a mortal Man; if one assumes Aelfwine as the author, then a
      > mortal man living in 5th century AD, a time *very* far removed from when
      > most of us--even LotR writers--will be writing. Even if one makes the common
      > (and, so far as I know, canonically correct) assumption that Elven culture
      > is slow in changing, I think it's safe to say that First- or Third-Age Elves
      > aren't going to believe or behave exactly the same as Elves living in 5th C
      > AD, nor are Noldorin exiles going to believe or behave the same as those
      > returned to Eressea.
      >
      > L&C, interestingly, even states outright, "What then happened to the
      > houseless fea? The answer to this question the Elves did not know by nature
      > ... It was in Aman that they learned of Manwe ..." So the information that
      > the Elves are giving to the L&C narrator/Aelfwine was received by them from
      > the Valar in the first place. Can we trust, then, all the stuff about
      > houseless spirits have evil tendencies and being ensnared by Morgoth to be
      > entirely correct? I suppose the "correct" and credulous answer is *yes.* But
      > I'm a self-proclaimed heretic where canon is concerned, so I wonder ... ;)

      Well, if it was only Lace, yes then I would agree, but such a thing is
      not in Lace alone. Finrod and Andreth talk at length about death, their
      fates, love ect in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (one of my absolute fav
      pieces of Tolkien). There hroa and fea is discussed, the influence of
      Endor & Melkor upon elves and men. It's too much to cite it, but I
      daresay that Tolkien's concept of death and going to Mandos' halls still
      stands even outside LACE. Then there is Glorfindel's essay, him being an
      exiled one, going to Mandos, returning from it. Finrod's own case. Beren
      & Luthien's case in the Silm comes to mind too, I mean Luthien knew of
      this being from a Sinda/Maiar line. Even before Aelfwine washed upon the
      shores of Tol Eressa somewhere in the 4th age, there is enough material
      and knowledge amongst Elves about those halls and death that your Quendi
      status in Endor does not matter when you are called to Mandos.

      <snip>
      >
      > Anyway, I think, from what I understand of it, that your friend can
      > certainly get away with her idea without putting a blinking neon *"AU"* sign
      > on the story. ;) And now, it is back to work, then off to bed, for me. :)

      Well, yes, as I said before, it depends on the state of mind of that elf
      (for the actions you've done, you'll be redressed by that in the halls
      by Mandos therapy, I know that you Dawn and Istarnie both have pieces on
      that as well). If he or she is still rather angry with Mandos and the
      Valar, he might as well flip the bird and go his own merry way. From the
      Valar pov, he's still tainted then ;) But redemption is possible.

      Rhapsody
      (is indeed in Sirielle's timezone)
    • Dawn Felagund
      ... Hi, Rhapsy! Actually, heretic though I may be ;) , I m not arguing or suggesting that the Valar lied about duality of the hroa and fea or the halls of
      Message 2 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
        On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 6:17 AM, Rhapsody <rhapsody74@...> wrote:
        >
        Well, if it was only Lace, yes then I would agree, but such a thing is
        > not in Lace alone. Finrod and Andreth talk at length about death, their
        > fates, love ect in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (one of my absolute fav
        > pieces of Tolkien). There hroa and fea is discussed, the influence of
        > Endor & Melkor upon elves and men. It's too much to cite it, but I
        > daresay that Tolkien's concept of death and going to Mandos' halls still
        > stands even outside LACE.

        Hi, Rhapsy!

        Actually, heretic though I may be ;) , I'm not arguing or suggesting that the Valar lied about duality of the hroa and fea or the halls of Mandos. Those things, to me, are spiritual essentials; they underlie our understanding of everything spiritual in Tolkien's world. And we have plenty of instances of "proof" of both: Elves who have gone--and returned--from Mandos proving the halls of Mandos; fading proving the idea of the coexistence of fear and hroar.

        My point in not trusting the Valar was actually intended to be much narrower than that. I may be showing myself as an agnostic living in America with this, seeing attempts at forcing religious views upon me at every turn. ;) But, to me, the bit in L&C about some spirits being under the control of the dark lord(s) and especially about how spirits that reject the "correct" action in answering the call of Mandos have some sort of inherent taint sounds terribly similar to the cautionary tales and scare tactics used by some religious leaders to dissuade actions that they personally deem wrong, for whatever reason. Of course the Valar are going to teach that forsaking the call of Namo is wrong. It is in their best interest to bring spirits to Mandos, and I think that they believe so fervently that what they offer to dead Elves is a gift that they fail to see how it might not be, to some. (This being a central theme of both stories I mentioned, actually.) So it is natural for them to see that rejecting such a gift = something wrong with the Elf who rejects it. But I don't think this has to be the case.

        And, unlike fear and hroar and the halls of Mandos, we really have no proof that these things are true. L&C says that the Elves learned what they knew of spirituality from the Valar; before that, they made all manner of strange guesses about the fates of their bodies and spirits. Over time, what they were taught about the dual existence of fea and hroa and the halls of Mandos was proven. I can think of no instance where their teachings about spirits that refuse the call of Mandos is proven in any way. (In fact, I can't even think of an instance where it is mentioned outside the pages of L&C.) So I remain skeptical on the truth of this. :)

        Though I'll admit that I would love to read a skeptical take on such essentials as fear/hroar and Mandos as well. Uh oh, I think I feel little teeth nibbling (and I so do not have time for this! ;)

        All the best,

        Dawn F.



        --
        ~oOo~
        Dawn Felagund
        www.silmarillionwritersguild.org
      • pandemonium_213
        ... little ... Although not written as a story or essay that explicitly addresses these, there will likely be some skeptic questioning of these concepts that
        Message 3 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
          --- In SilmarillionWritersGuild@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Felagund"
          <DawnFelagund@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Though I'll admit that I would *love* to read a skeptical take on such
          > essentials as fear/hroar and Mandos as well. Uh oh, I think I feel
          little
          > teeth nibbling (and I *so* do not have time for this! ;)
          >

          Although not written as a story or essay that explicitly addresses
          these, there will likely be some skeptic questioning of these concepts
          that will eventually appear in my latest WIP. But then, by necessity,
          I must label whatever I write as AU because my own skepticism colors
          my interpretation of JRRT just as much as his own belief system, which
          clearly embraced Cartesian dualism, affected his great works.

          I always wondered how accessible re-embodiment/reincarnation was to
          any given Elf. Or were these special cases, e.g., Finrod and
          Glorfindel? I'm afraid the capriciousness of the Valar cause me to
          wonder if such reincarnation is the exception rather than the rule,
          not unlike the contrast of Eärendil going through maritime hell to beg
          the Valar for help, but then Tuor apparently getting a cheerful "c'mon
          over" from the Divine Ones. Of course, one could always argue there
          were plenty of cases which were not documented by the "historians."
        • Rhapsody
          ... Hmmm yay!!! ;) Who needs glue? Just a few e-mails here and there and the bunnies are all over you Dawn ;c) *whistles an innocent tune* ... Of course! I
          Message 4 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
            pandemonium_213 wrote:
            > --- In SilmarillionWritersGuild@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Felagund"
            > <DawnFelagund@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> Though I'll admit that I would *love* to read a skeptical take on such
            >> essentials as fear/hroar and Mandos as well. Uh oh, I think I feel
            >> little teeth nibbling (and I *so* do not have time for this! ;)

            Hmmm yay!!! ;) Who needs glue? Just a few e-mails here and there and the
            bunnies are all over you Dawn ;c) *whistles an innocent tune*

            > Although not written as a story or essay that explicitly addresses
            > these, there will likely be some skeptic questioning of these concepts
            > that will eventually appear in my latest WIP. But then, by necessity,
            > I must label whatever I write as AU because my own skepticism colors
            > my interpretation of JRRT just as much as his own belief system, which
            > clearly embraced Cartesian dualism, affected his great works.

            Of course! I think that our own worldviews/morality will define on how
            we see or write things, and this combined with what is known in canon so
            in a way, the professor's opinion plays a part too. That's the challenge
            of writing in this fandom, imho. Not only that, it will define us
            differently as authors. For me a story has to be way way way out of line
            of the story before I will ever label it as AU :)

            > I always wondered how accessible re-embodiment/reincarnation was to
            > any given Elf. Or were these special cases, e.g., Finrod and
            > Glorfindel? I'm afraid the capriciousness of the Valar cause me to
            > wonder if such reincarnation is the exception rather than the rule,
            > not unlike the contrast of Eärendil going through maritime hell to beg
            > the Valar for help, but then Tuor apparently getting a cheerful "c'mon
            > over" from the Divine Ones. Of course, one could always argue there
            > were plenty of cases which were not documented by the "historians."

            As far as I know re-embodiment was for all, if you wanted to because one
            needed to re-imagine their own body before you could get it back... or
            something like that (I recall reading it somewhere but *not* in Lace,
            yes I know, not helpful!). I am sorry, it's dinner time here and the
            smells of that are highly distracting. Hmmmm freshly baked bread....
            french brie...

            Rhapsody
            (carpe diem and all of that)
          • Sirielle
            p I always wondered how accessible re-embodiment/reincarnation was to p any given Elf. Or were these special cases, e.g., Finrod and p Glorfindel? p
            Message 5 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
              p> I always wondered how accessible re-embodiment/reincarnation was to
              p> any given Elf. Or were these special cases, e.g., Finrod and
              p> Glorfindel?
              p> (...)
              p> Of course, one could always argue there were plenty of cases which were not documented by the "historians."

              I'm sure there were. I think exception is rather Fëanor who is never
              to be reembodied till Arda Healed.

              If JRRT had more time on Arda we would have better source material for
              debates. Unfortunately someone else did an order in his notes. I
              haven't peered to Glorfindel's essay but I think reincarnation is
              backed up there, as Rhapsody already mentioned. Text in
              Tolkien's own words not rewritten by Silmarillion editors.

              Sirielle
            • Sirielle
              Hi p I m afraid the capriciousness of the Valar This is interesting, what do you mean by their capriciousness? Suilad, Sirielle sirielle@tlen.pl
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                Hi

                p> I'm afraid the capriciousness of the Valar

                This is interesting, what do you mean by their capriciousness?


                Suilad,
                Sirielle

                sirielle@...
                http://www.isle.px.pl
                http://sirielle.cgsociety.org/gallery/
              • pandemonium_213
                ... Hi Sirielle! Yep, with regard to Fëanor, that is canonically accurate. I m less certain of the rest - unspoken/unwritten is rife with ambiguity. ... Yes,
                Message 7 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                  --- In SilmarillionWritersGuild@yahoogroups.com, Sirielle
                  <sirielle@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > I'm sure there were. I think exception is rather Fëanor who is never
                  > to be reembodied till Arda Healed.

                  Hi Sirielle!

                  Yep, with regard to Fëanor, that is canonically accurate. I'm less
                  certain of the rest - unspoken/unwritten is rife with ambiguity.
                  >
                  > If JRRT had more time on Arda we would have better source material for
                  > debates. Unfortunately someone else did an order in his notes.

                  Yes, completely agree here. One of the things I love about the HoMe
                  is the manner in which it documents the evolution of his thoughts and
                  world.

                  I
                  > haven't peered to Glorfindel's essay but I think reincarnation is
                  > backed up there, as Rhapsody already mentioned. Text in
                  > Tolkien's own words not rewritten by Silmarillion editors.

                  Yep again. Although Christopher T does change his mind, e.g.,quoting
                  from footnote 17 from Last Writings "Of Glorfindel, Círdan and other
                  matters" in vol XII of the HoMe:

                  "He wrote here reincarnation of elves x.363-4 that the idea (rebirth)
                  'must be abandoned, or at least noted as a false notion, e.g. probably
                  of Mannish origin, since nearly all the matter of The Silmarillion is
                  contained in myths and legends that have passed through Men's hands
                  and minds and are (in many points) plainly influenced by contact and
                  confusion with the myths, theories and legends of Men'c17f p 357 note

                  My (Christopher Tolkien) discussion of this matter in X.364 must be
                  corrected. I said there that the idea that the 'houseless' fea was
                  enbalbed to rebuild its hroa from its memory became my father's 'firm
                  and stable view on the matter', 'as appears from very late writing on
                  the subject of the reincarnation of Glorfindel of Gondolin.' This is
                  erroneous. This last discussion of Elvish reincarnation refers only
                  to the 'restoration' or 'reconstitution' of the former body by the
                  Valar, and makes no mention of the idea that it could be achieved by
                  the 'houseless fea' operating of itself."

                  That's some interesting text IMO. It certainly suggests that the
                  Valar had a major hand in who would be reincarnated.
                • pandemonium_213
                  ... Hi, Sirielle! By capriciousness I mean a certain inconsistency in their actions. The case of Eärendil and Tuor to me is the most glaring. Tuor is
                  Message 8 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                    --- In SilmarillionWritersGuild@yahoogroups.com, Sirielle
                    <sirielle@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > p> I'm afraid the capriciousness of the Valar
                    >
                    > This is interesting, what do you mean by their capriciousness?
                    >
                    >

                    Hi, Sirielle!

                    By "capriciousness" I mean a certain inconsistency in their actions.
                    The case of Eärendil and Tuor to me is the most glaring. Tuor is
                    allowed into Valinor (inferred anyway although this could just be
                    another "myth of Men" see my other response to you which cites that
                    footnote) and "counted among the Firstborn." Yet Eärendil, who
                    actually carries direct Eldarin lineage is allowed to reach Valinor
                    only under the most extenuating circumstances. There's a troublesome
                    inconsistency there.

                    I just received a copy of the Parma Eldalamberon (v. 17) which
                    contains this passage - written by JRRT:

                    "With regard to Elves and Men Eru had made one absolute prohibition:
                    the Valar were not to attempt to dominate the Children ...

                    ...The Valar - all save one, Melkor, obeyed this prohibition,
                    according to their wisdom.*

                    *This is said because the invitation given to the Eldar to remove to
                    Valinor and live unendangered by Melkor was not in fact according to
                    the design of Eru. It arose from anxiety, and it might be said from
                    failure in trust of Eru, and from anxiety and fear of Melkor, and the
                    decision of the Eldar to accept the invitation was due to the
                    overwhelming effect of their contact, while still in their
                    inexperienced youth, with the bliss of Aman and the beauty and majesty
                    of the Valar. It had disastrous consequences in diminishing the Elves
                    of Middle-earth and so depriving Men of a large measure of the
                    intended help and teaching of their 'elder brethren', and exposing
                    them more dangerously to the power and deceits of Melkor. Also since
                    it was in fact alien to the nature of the Elves to live under the
                    protection of Aman, and not (as was intended) in Middle-earth, one
                    consequence was the revolt of the Noldor."

                    Although this may not be defined as "capricious," it does seem to
                    indicate that the Valar exercised bad judgment on occasion. :^)
                  • Rhapsody
                    ... ... But, elsewhere in the same book or HOME (IIRC), there is an essay about the professor soundly rejecting people being reborn as babies (those
                    Message 9 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                      pandemonium_213 wrote:
                      > --- In SilmarillionWritersGuild@yahoogroups.com, Sirielle
                      > <sirielle@...> wrote:
                      <snip>
                      > I
                      >> haven't peered to Glorfindel's essay but I think reincarnation is
                      >> backed up there, as Rhapsody already mentioned. Text in
                      >> Tolkien's own words not rewritten by Silmarillion editors.
                      >
                      > Yep again. Although Christopher T does change his mind, e.g.,quoting
                      > from footnote 17 from Last Writings "Of Glorfindel, Círdan and other
                      > matters" in vol XII of the HoMe:
                      >
                      > "He wrote here reincarnation of elves x.363-4 that the idea (rebirth)
                      > 'must be abandoned, or at least noted as a false notion, e.g. probably
                      > of Mannish origin, since nearly all the matter of The Silmarillion is
                      > contained in myths and legends that have passed through Men's hands
                      > and minds and are (in many points) plainly influenced by contact and
                      > confusion with the myths, theories and legends of Men'c17f p 357 note
                      >
                      > My (Christopher Tolkien) discussion of this matter in X.364 must be
                      > corrected. I said there that the idea that the 'houseless' fea was
                      > enbalbed to rebuild its hroa from its memory became my father's 'firm
                      > and stable view on the matter', 'as appears from very late writing on
                      > the subject of the reincarnation of Glorfindel of Gondolin.' This is
                      > erroneous. This last discussion of Elvish reincarnation refers only
                      > to the 'restoration' or 'reconstitution' of the former body by the
                      > Valar, and makes no mention of the idea that it could be achieved by
                      > the 'houseless fea' operating of itself."
                      >
                      > That's some interesting text IMO. It certainly suggests that the
                      > Valar had a major hand in who would be reincarnated.
                      >
                      But, elsewhere in the same book or HOME (IIRC), there is an essay about the
                      professor soundly rejecting people being reborn as babies (those stories I
                      do label as AU). Because it would be unnecessary cruel upon both set of
                      parents (the new parents and the first parents) to have them go through
                      this, in that same essay, not the one about Glorfindel, the professor
                      says that it takes up a lot of energy of a person to recreate a body
                      from scratch and from memory, therefore not many did it. It must be the
                      person's wish to do so, not so much as the Valar going like... heeeey
                      Aegnor, you have to be reincarnated, so what say you? No? Too bad
                      because we wants it.

                      I think it's either in HOME 10 or HOME 12 (I think the latter and its in
                      the debate of Finwe & Miriel). I read & studied it extensively when I
                      was writing my first installment of my Maglor novel when doing the
                      NaNoWriMo, so I might have it somewhere, but just like Dawn at this very
                      moment B2MEM and other RL stuff takes away a lot from free time, so I
                      need to dig it up when things become less hectic for me.

                      What I am trying to say however is, whenever I dive into such a thing so
                      canonical (or wanting to be sure it fits canon), I always compare
                      several pieces the professor wrote on the matter. There is a certain
                      growth in his reasoning, so looking at the overview of such a topic
                      might give you a better idea how he regarded it than basing it on one
                      essay (of which I am sure you won't).

                      Rhapsody
                    • pandemonium_213
                      ... about the ... stories I ... Oh, yes, I completely agree - I imagine it s a mutual agreement between said fëa and those who are going to - ah - somehow
                      Message 10 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                        --- In SilmarillionWritersGuild@yahoogroups.com, Rhapsody
                        <rhapsody74@...> wrote:

                        > >
                        > But, elsewhere in the same book or HOME (IIRC), there is an essay
                        about the
                        > professor soundly rejecting people being reborn as babies (those
                        stories I
                        > do label as AU). Because it would be unnecessary cruel upon both set of
                        > parents (the new parents and the first parents) to have them go through
                        > this, in that same essay, not the one about Glorfindel, the professor
                        > says that it takes up a lot of energy of a person to recreate a body
                        > from scratch and from memory, therefore not many did it. It must be the
                        > person's wish to do so, not so much as the Valar going like... heeeey
                        > Aegnor, you have to be reincarnated, so what say you? No? Too bad
                        > because we wants it.

                        Oh, yes, I completely agree - I imagine it's a mutual agreement
                        between said fëa and those who are going to - ah - somehow reconstruct
                        the body...and to think there are those who deny that Tolkien cannot
                        be binned under "science fiction. :^D


                        >
                        > What I am trying to say however is, whenever I dive into such a
                        thing so
                        > canonical (or wanting to be sure it fits canon), I always compare
                        > several pieces the professor wrote on the matter. There is a certain
                        > growth in his reasoning, so looking at the overview of such a topic
                        > might give you a better idea how he regarded it than basing it on one
                        > essay (of which I am sure you won't).

                        Heh. Yes, indeed, that's my approach, too. I'll read a bunch of
                        essays and then go turn canon on its head. :^)

                        Re: carpe diem - I'm now taking Rampaging Frodo out for a driving
                        lesson - in *my* car. Wish me luck!
                      • Dawn Felagund
                        ... I recently collected quotes about Elven rebirth/reincarnation for a friend who needed this information, so it s pretty fresh in my memory. I think the
                        Message 11 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                          On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 3:22 PM, Rhapsody <rhapsody74@...> wrote:
                          >
                          I think it's either in HOME 10 or HOME 12 (I think the latter and its in
                          > the debate of Finwe & Miriel). I read & studied it extensively when I
                          > was writing my first installment of my Maglor novel when doing the
                          > NaNoWriMo, so I might have it somewhere, but just like Dawn at this very
                          > moment B2MEM and other RL stuff takes away a lot from free time, so I
                          > need to dig it up when things become less hectic for me.

                          I recently collected quotes about Elven rebirth/reincarnation for a friend who needed this information, so it's pretty fresh in my memory. I think the section you're talking about is "The Converse of Manwe and Eru and later conceptions of Elven reincarnation" from HoMe X. It basically refutes the ideas of L&C from earlier in the same book. It starts on page 361 in my copy. It's pretty long, so I won't reprint the whole thing here, but I will if anyone is interested.

                          >
                          What I am trying to say however is, whenever I dive into such a thing so
                          > canonical (or wanting to be sure it fits canon), I always compare
                          > several pieces the professor wrote on the matter. There is a certain
                          > growth in his reasoning, so looking at the overview of such a topic
                          > might give you a better idea how he regarded it than basing it on one
                          > essay (of which I am sure you won't).

                          The passage Pandemonium cited is later than "Converse." In fact, the X.364 to which CT refers as erroneous occurs in "Converse." So we can certainly see the evolution of which you speak here:

                          L&C (HoMe X): Elves are reborn as babies to a new set of parents (fraught with problems)
                          "Converse" (HoMe X): according to CT, an Elf can "rebuild its hroa from its memory" and this was JRRT's final word on the subject
                          "Of Glorfindel" (HoMe XII): This was not JRRT's final word; CT was mistaken. The Valar must be involved in reincarnation, in building a body identical to the first.

                          All the best,

                          Dawn

                          PS-- Oshun ... I told you that you'd opened a can of worms! ;)

                          --
                          ~oOo~
                          Dawn Felagund
                          www.silmarillionwritersguild.org
                        • heartofoshun@aol.com
                          In a message dated 3/1/2008 3:21:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, docbushwell@gmail.com writes: Also since it was in fact alien to the nature of the Elves to live
                          Message 12 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                            In a message dated 3/1/2008 3:21:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, docbushwell@... writes:
                            Also since
                            it was in fact alien to the nature of the Elves to live under the
                            protection of Aman, and not (as was intended) in Middle-earth, one
                            consequence was the revolt of the Noldor."
                            That's wonderful. I'm going to have to get my hands on that journal.




                            Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living.
                          • Rhapsody
                            ... Hmmm no :) The reason why I read that bit was not for reincarnation, its somewhere else and it had to do with Finwe and Miriel, the whole saga of Miriel
                            Message 13 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                              Dawn Felagund wrote:
                              > On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 3:22 PM, Rhapsody <rhapsody74@...> wrote:
                              >> I think it's either in HOME 10 or HOME 12 (I think the latter and its in
                              >> the debate of Finwe & Miriel). I read & studied it extensively when I
                              >> was writing my first installment of my Maglor novel when doing the
                              >> NaNoWriMo, so I might have it somewhere, but just like Dawn at this very
                              >> moment B2MEM and other RL stuff takes away a lot from free time, so I
                              >> need to dig it up when things become less hectic for me.
                              >
                              > I recently collected quotes about Elven rebirth/reincarnation for a friend
                              > who needed this information, so it's pretty fresh in my memory. I think the
                              > section you're talking about is "The Converse of Manwe and Eru and later
                              > conceptions of Elven reincarnation" from HoMe X. It basically refutes the
                              > ideas of L&C from earlier in the same book. It starts on page 361 in my
                              > copy. It's pretty long, so I won't reprint the whole thing here, but I will
                              > if anyone is interested.

                              Hmmm no :) The reason why I read that bit was not for reincarnation, its
                              somewhere else and it had to do with Finwe and Miriel, the whole saga of
                              Miriel not wanting to stay within her body, the Valar also chatting.
                              Must be HOME XII. It must be some few pesky lines here and there which
                              will feel like a needle in a haystack to find it!

                              > PS-- Oshun ... I told you that you'd opened a can of worms! ;)

                              It's not that bad, is it? I don't sense much disagreement here that
                              usually comes with the opening of a can of worms ;)

                              Rhapsody
                            • Sirielle
                              Ai Rhapsody, R Hmmm no :) The reason why I read that bit was not for reincarnation, its R somewhere else and it had to do with Finwe and Miriel, the whole
                              Message 14 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                                Ai Rhapsody,

                                R> Hmmm no :) The reason why I read that bit was not for reincarnation, its
                                R> somewhere else and it had to do with Finwe and Miriel, the whole saga of
                                R> Miriel not wanting to stay within her body, the Valar also chatting.
                                R> Must be HOME XII.

                                "Later versions of of the Story of Finwe and Miriel" is in MR, I was
                                quoting from there. If there is more on them in XII than not mentioned
                                in index. Maybe in the "Shibboleth of Feanor" where if I remember well
                                there is the version of Miriel leaving when Feanor was already old
                                enough (teenager?), not right after giving him birth as in the
                                Silmarillion. Anyway theres a bit about her in this text.


                                >> PS-- Oshun ... I told you that you'd opened a can of worms! ;)

                                R> It's not that bad, is it? I don't sense much disagreement here that
                                R> usually comes with the opening of a can of worms ;)

                                Rather interesting discussion which immediately brought us back to ME ;)

                                Suilad,
                                Sirielle

                                sirielle@...
                                http://www.isle.px.pl
                                http://sirielle.cgsociety.org/gallery/
                              • heartofoshun@aol.com
                                In a message dated 3/1/2008 3:46:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, DawnFelagund@gmail.com writes: PS-- Oshun ... I told you that you d opened a can of worms! ;)
                                Message 15 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                                  In a message dated 3/1/2008 3:46:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, DawnFelagund@... writes:
                                  PS-- Oshun ... I told you that you'd opened a can of worms! ;)
                                  Hey! But its a great discussion. (The only thing is that I am now embarrassed since I am recognizing all of the quotations that people are citing--I have the attention span/memory of a housefly and am as lazy as a slug--but people's comments on them are as interesting as the original cites in this case.)




                                  Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living.
                                • Dawn Felagund
                                  ... I skimmed Finwe and Miriel quickly while looking for the passage from Converse and didn t see much different on the subject of reincarnation, but I
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                                    On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Sirielle <sirielle@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    "Later versions of of the Story of Finwe and Miriel" is in MR, I was
                                    > quoting from there.

                                    I skimmed "Finwe and Miriel" quickly while looking for the passage from "Converse" and didn't see much different on the subject of reincarnation, but I skimmed very quickly, so I really need to sit down and read the durned thing again. It was one of the first essays I read back on that heady day when I first got MR in the mail from Barnes & Noble; it's on my list to re-read, but there just aren't enough hours in the day. :)

                                    Rhapsy (or anyone), if you find that passage, I'd be really interested to see it and to figure out how it fits in the scheme with L&C, "Converse," and "Of Glorfindel." Either way, I'll be rereading this essay in the next couple of days; you've all piqued my curiosity!

                                    Dawn

                                    --
                                    ~oOo~
                                    Dawn Felagund
                                    www.silmarillionwritersguild.org
                                  • Sirielle
                                    Ladies and Gentlemen, just in case you haven t seen it - this should explain a lot of your doubts about the nature of the elven death... or maybe not ;)
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                                      Ladies and Gentlemen,

                                      just in case you haven't seen it - this should explain a lot of your
                                      doubts about the nature of the elven death... or maybe not ;)

                                      http://www.wladca.pl/Rivendell/galeria/books/remi/the_halls_of_mandos_by_sidhanniel.jpg/image_view_fullscreen

                                      (I hope I didn't link it before.)



                                      Suilad,
                                      Sirielle

                                      sirielle@...
                                      http://www.isle.px.pl
                                      http://sirielle.cgsociety.org/gallery/
                                    • Dawn Felagund
                                      Oh, I *love* this! I ve seen it before, but rereading it is always a joy! My poor namesake. I think you were very brave, Finrod. *pets* Thanks, Sirielle, for
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                                        Oh, I love this! I've seen it before, but rereading it is always a joy!

                                        My poor namesake. I think you were very brave, Finrod. *pets*

                                        Thanks, Sirielle, for the link!

                                        Dawn

                                        --
                                        ~oOo~
                                        Dawn Felagund
                                        www.silmarillionwritersguild.org
                                      • heartofoshun@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 3/1/2008 5:21:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, sirielle@tlen.pl writes: just in case you haven t seen it - this should explain a lot of your
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                                          In a message dated 3/1/2008 5:21:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, sirielle@... writes:
                                          just in case you haven't seen it - this should explain a lot of your
                                          doubts about the nature of the elven death... or maybe not ;)
                                          OMG! Poor Finrod. He is really too nice to hang out with those two.




                                          Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living.
                                        • Sirielle
                                          Dawn: DF Oh, I love this! I ve seen it before, but rereading it is always a joy! I do it sometimes for a better mood ;) DF My poor namesake. I think you were
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                                            Dawn:
                                            DF> Oh, I love this! I've seen it before, but rereading it is always a joy!

                                            I do it sometimes for a better mood ;)

                                            DF> My poor namesake. I think you were very brave, Finrod. *pets*
                                            DF> Thanks, Sirielle, for the link!

                                            And here is the right link - credits are only in preview:
                                            http://www.wladca.pl/Rivendell/galeria/books/remi/the_halls_of_mandos_by_sidhanniel.jpg/view
                                            (though the link to Remi's gallery is quite misleading for she has removed all her
                                            galleries from web and I doubt she is checking any notes at dA).

                                            Oshun:
                                            hac> OMG! Poor Finrod. He is really too nice to hang out with those two.

                                            Evil half bros ;) There is another part to this one, not that funny
                                            though. But I haven't submitted it to the gallery. Uploading
                                            attachment would not be fair for people who read all on-line, so I'll
                                            link it later. Findaráto has his moment of laughter, too :)

                                            Sirielle
                                          • Rhapsody
                                            ... She s banned from DA O-o Wow, I have seen her images before, but do you have any idea what happened? Rhapsody (hasn t been on DA for a while)
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                                              Sirielle wrote:

                                              > DF> My poor namesake. I think you were very brave, Finrod. *pets*
                                              > DF> Thanks, Sirielle, for the link!
                                              >
                                              > And here is the right link - credits are only in preview:
                                              > http://www.wladca.pl/Rivendell/galeria/books/remi/the_halls_of_mandos_by_sidhanniel.jpg/view
                                              > (though the link to Remi's gallery is quite misleading for she has removed all her
                                              > galleries from web and I doubt she is checking any notes at dA).

                                              She's banned from DA O-o Wow, I have seen her images before, but do you
                                              have any idea what happened?

                                              Rhapsody
                                              (hasn't been on DA for a while)
                                            • Sirielle
                                              Ai Rhapsody, R She s banned from DA O-o Wow, I have seen her images before, but do you R have any idea what happened? No, I don t. It has happened some
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Mar 1, 2008
                                                Ai Rhapsody,

                                                R> She's banned from DA O-o Wow, I have seen her images before, but do you
                                                R> have any idea what happened?

                                                No, I don't. It has happened some months ago. I contacted her via Peter (
                                                http://dauph.deviantart.com/ ), she
                                                is not coming back to net galleries anytime soon as he told me.



                                                Suilad,
                                                Sirielle

                                                sirielle@...
                                                http://www.isle.px.pl
                                                http://sirielle.cgsociety.org/gallery/
                                              • moreth00
                                                ... taking over ... know if the ... houseless elf ... Hmmm I ve skimmed the responses, so I ll go back to the original post for my take on houseless elves...
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Mar 2, 2008
                                                  heartofoshun@... wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > a good friend is writing a story which includes a case of a
                                                  > follower of the sons of Feanor becoming a houseless elf and they
                                                  taking over
                                                  > other people's bodies. She wants my comments and I really don't
                                                  know if the
                                                  > conception that a follower of the sons of Feanor could become a
                                                  houseless elf
                                                  > controlled by Sauron was AU or canon.
                                                  > Oshun
                                                  >

                                                  Hmmm I've skimmed the responses, so I'll go back to the original post
                                                  for my take on houseless elves...

                                                  It seems to me that in part 4 of LAC, Tolkien was messing about
                                                  trying to incorporate the European traditions of spirits associated
                                                  with wells/stones/trees ('tutelary spirits' is the term I believe)
                                                  with houseless elves. Then he diverts into this being 'wrong' and
                                                  winds up with them under the control of Morgoth / Sauron and able to
                                                  possess people... So, your friend's idea has canon support to that
                                                  extent :)

                                                  How far Tolkien would have wanted to pursue this, I'm not sure, since
                                                  even thinking about it briefly lands you in some pretty murky
                                                  territory! Ofc, this is the same essay that has elves being
                                                  reincarnated as infants (Bad idea. Thank god that one was retracted!)

                                                  Interestingly enough - the essay explicity distinguishes
                                                  between 'Lingerers' who have faded (but are OK) and the 'Houseless'
                                                  who have no bodies due to death (and are not OK at all)...

                                                  Tricky thing to write - but your friend's thoughts are not AU to my
                                                  mind: "... the fea unbodied would flee in terror of the Shadow...
                                                  unless it were already committed to the Darkness and passed then into
                                                  its dominion."

                                                  (And on reading the long discussion - yay! Let's hear it for
                                                  redaction criticism... guessing what C. Tolkien meant is nearly as
                                                  much fun as guessing JRR's original thoughts ;P)
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