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Battle Question

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  • ellfine2000
    How long did the War of Wrath last? Anybody know what were the approximate troop movements during that time? (i.e. in what year did the Army of Light reach
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 3, 2005
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      How long did the War of Wrath last? Anybody know what were the
      approximate troop movements during that time? (i.e. in what year did
      the Army of Light reach Angband)

      I've found conflicting info on this and really don't have a clue.

      Thanks!
      Ellie
    • rhapsody_the_bard
      ... That depends on which Tale of the years you are using from book eleven of HOME (that is War of the Jewels). There are four versions of the Tale of the
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 4, 2005
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        --- In SilmarillionWritersGuild@yahoogroups.com, "ellfine2000"
        <glenceol@b...> wrote:
        > How long did the War of Wrath last?

        That depends on which Tale of the years you are using from book eleven
        of HOME (that is War of the Jewels). There are four versions of the
        Tale of the years (in book eleven of HOME), that Tolkien drafted, with
        different dates iirc. Now if one source sticks to version A only, and
        the other to version B...

        From HOME:

        Version A:
        547. The host of the Valar comes up out of the West. Fionwe son of
        Manwe lands in Beleriand with great power.
        550-597. The last war of the Elder Days, and the Great Battle, is
        begun. In this war Beleriand is broken and destroyed.Morgoth is at
        last utterly overcome, and Angband is unroofed and unmade. Morgoth is
        bound, and the last two Silmarils are regained.

        Version B:
        547. The coming of the host of the Valar was moved to 545.
        550-597. The dates of 'the last war of the Elder Days' were changed to
        545-587, and after the last words of the original entry the following
        was added: 'Ancalagon is cast down by Earendil and all save two of the
        Dragons are destroyed.'
        597. This entry was changed to 587.
        600. This final entry was changed to 590, and the following was added
        to it: 'Morgoth is thrust from Arda into the Outer Dark.'
        'Here ends the First Age of the Children of Iluvatar' was changed to:
        'Here end the Elder Days with the passing of Melkor, according to the
        reckoning of most lore-masters; here ends also the First Age...'

        In 505, the striking out of Dior's return to Doriath preceded its
        inclusion under 503. There has never been any mention of a further
        warning of Ulmo (509) since the coming of Tuor to Gondolin. On the
        addition in 545 - 587 concerning Ancalagon see V.329, $18; and with
        the reference to the end of the Elder Days 'according to the reckoning
        of most lore-masters' cf. p. 343.
        The third stage was the striking out of the whole manuscript from the
        year 400 almost to the end, and its replacement by a new version
        ('C'), which I give here for the same period, from the return of Hurin
        from Angband: this is a clear text with some later changes to the
        dates (changes which largely return the dates to those in B).

        Version C only contains (as far as I can see, details on Turin and
        birthdates of Elros & Elrond).

        Version D: contains information on Fëanor's sons and Doriath things.

        This is all from HOME, Christopher's words, not me.

        > Anybody know what were the approximate troop movements during that
        > time? (i.e. in what year did the Army of Light reach Angband)

        See above for time. Earendil and the Edain approached from the North
        (even above the lands of Hithlum), first the Edain Lords, (this all
        according to the Silm chapter of the Voyage of Earendil, in my edition
        (harper collins, paperback, page 302-303) the three houses of Men and,
        yes, some of the house of Uldor. Earendil approached later on from the
        North (he killed Ancalagon first, who chrashed on Thangorodrim).

        The Valinor host came through the Toll of Sirion (where the eagles of
        Thorondor joined them)/Fens of Serech, but the battle was fought on
        Anfauglith. There is an excellent map in the atlas of Middle Earth by
        Karen Wynn Fonstad. I can't find it online that quickly, but if you
        can get your hands on it for the visual... I never found an exact
        statement of nr of troups. But from Valinor, with the Valar/Maiar came
        also elves from the Vanyar, the remaining Noldo houses and the Teleri
        who only wanted to sail in their white ships) and what was left of the
        Elven houses on Beleriand.

        > I've found conflicting info on this and really don't have a clue.

        I can imagine that. I got this as a beta research request once and it
        gave me an headache.. I do have this short clip of the Tale of the
        years in a document. Let me know if you want it.

        On a complete different note... I joined last night, but I was too
        tired to type a welcome message, my sincere apologies. But I couldn't
        resist this... So eum, hi Rhapsody, some might know me from Stories of
        Arda or Open Scrolls Archive or from the Marigold Challenges. I do
        have a weird fascination for the sons of Fëanor (Maglor specifically)
        and I am fond of digging out anything strategic (see above) regarding
        battles or campaigns. I do have a very weak spot for Numenor as well.
        So forgive me for dropping in like this.. My friend Isil Elensar told
        me about the lj group, but I found my way here as well. So, not the
        introduction I imagined... *ahem*

        If you have more questions and so on, or if I have to give more
        information, please let me know.

        Rhapsody
        (shuffles back into the corner)
      • rhapsody_the_bard
        ... Correction on this, I just spotted more Edain arrows/lines.. There is a group of Edain joining the big host coming from either Dor-Lómin/Caves of Andros
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 4, 2005
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          --- In SilmarillionWritersGuild@yahoogroups.com, "rhapsody_the_bard"
          <rhapsody74@g...> wrote:
          > --- In SilmarillionWritersGuild@yahoogroups.com, "ellfine2000"
          > <glenceol@b...> wrote:

          >
          > > Anybody know what were the approximate troop movements during that
          > > time? (i.e. in what year did the Army of Light reach Angband)
          >
          > See above for time. Earendil and the Edain approached from the North
          > (even above the lands of Hithlum), first the Edain Lords, (this all
          > according to the Silm chapter of the Voyage of Earendil, in my
          > edition (harper collins, paperback, page 302-303) the three houses
          > of Men and, yes, some of the house of Uldor. Earendil approached
          > later on from the North (he killed Ancalagon first, who chrashed on
          > Thangorodrim).

          Correction on this, I just spotted more Edain arrows/lines.. There is
          a group of Edain joining the big host coming from either
          Dor-Lómin/Caves of Andros and another group coming from Ossiriand
          (they marched along the Andram, (The Long Wall) before they join the
          big host. Now if I remember it correctly: the house of Marach (third
          house) lived in Dor-Lomin, the House of Bëor (first house) lived in
          Ossiriand, so does the house of Bor, the house of the Haladin (second
          house) has colozined southern Thargelion (under Brethil). The house of
          Ulfang dwelled a bit around Amon Ereb for a while. So only Eärendil
          came from the North.. I assume. This makes more sense, because all
          North of Hitlum isn't that nice.

          Sorry about noticing it so late..

          Rhapsody
        • DawnFelagund@comcast.net
          Hi, Rhapsody, Wow, what wonderful research! ... LoL! You and 90% of the group, I think! ... Hopefully not for long, not with your research skills :) Anyway,
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 4, 2005
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            Hi, Rhapsody,
            Wow, what wonderful research!

            > I do have a weird fascination for the sons of F�anor (Maglor specifically)

            LoL! You and 90% of the group, I think!

            > (shuffles back into the corner)

            Hopefully not for long, not with your research skills :) Anyway, welcome to the group! Hope to see you around,
            Dawn Felagund :)


            --
            ~oOo~
            Dawn Felagund
            Read my stories or visit me online at http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=dawn_felagund

            Are you a relentless First-Ager?
            Check out the Silmarillion Writers' Guild at http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=silwritersguild.
            ~oOo~
          • ellfine2000
            Rhapsody, Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Welcome here and Thank you! Would you be interested in being a resource for a
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 4, 2005
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              Rhapsody,
              Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
              Welcome here and Thank you!

              Would you be interested in being a resource for a Finarfin story I'm
              writing that takes place during the War of Wrath? I desperately need
              the kind of info you just so graciously provided!

              YAY! I'm glad you are here!

              Ellie
            • rhapsody_the_bard
              ... *smile* ... That is a hell of a plotbunnie Ellie, he would be seen as a natural leader of the Vanyar host. :) I am always around, when I can.. So as a
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 4, 2005
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                --- In SilmarillionWritersGuild@yahoogroups.com, "ellfine2000"
                <glenceol@b...> wrote:
                > Rhapsody,
                > Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
                > Welcome here and Thank you!

                *smile*

                > Would you be interested in being a resource for a Finarfin story I'm
                > writing that takes place during the War of Wrath? I desperately need
                > the kind of info you just so graciously provided!

                That is a hell of a plotbunnie Ellie, he would be seen as a natural
                leader of the Vanyar host. :) I am always around, when I can.. So as
                a resource, I am here for you. That is, in 16 weeks I will become not
                available for a while because of my due date.

                > YAY! I'm glad you are here!

                Thanks I am happy that my rambling post on this helped you so much.
                And I am looking forward to that story: it sounds incredibly interesting!

                Rhapsody
              • rhapsody_the_bard
                ... You re welcome. ... Hehehe, Maglor or Fëanorians in general? It is nice to meet more people who like them as well (despite their vices). ... I will try as
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 4, 2005
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                  --- In SilmarillionWritersGuild@yahoogroups.com, DawnFelagund@c... wrote:
                  > Hi, Rhapsody,
                  > Wow, what wonderful research!

                  You're welcome.

                  > > I do have a weird fascination for the sons of Fëanor (Maglor
                  > > specifically)
                  >
                  > LoL! You and 90% of the group, I think!

                  Hehehe, Maglor or Fëanorians in general? It is nice to meet more
                  people who like them as well (despite their vices).

                  > > (shuffles back into the corner)
                  >
                  > Hopefully not for long, not with your research skills :) Anyway,
                  > welcome to the group! Hope to see you around,

                  I will try as much as I can. I am not in such a writing mood lately,
                  besides drabbling for the OSA drabbling challenges. Are these welcome
                  too? Should they be posted to the LJ community?

                  Rhapsody
                • DawnFelagund@comcast.net
                  ... people who like them as well (despite their vices). I would say the Feanorians in general are very popular here, with Maglor being one of the most popular.
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 4, 2005
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                    Rhapsody the Bard wrote:
                    > Hehehe, Maglor or F�anorians in general? It is nice to meet more
                    people who like them as well (despite their vices).
                    I would say the Feanorians in general are very popular here, with Maglor being one of the most popular. (Maedhros, of course, gets his due share of attention!) And many of us are quite adept at defending their characters, despite said vices :)
                     
                    I know when I really started to get into the Sil community and started this group, I was amazed by the number of Feanatics out there. In general Tolkien groups, they seemed to always have such a bad rap, and I always felt rather alone in my defense of them...but many people who read (primarily) The Sil, it seems, realize the depth of their characters, especially for writing purposes. Okay, this is a dangerous topic for me, so I'm going to forestall the ramble for the moment! :D
                     
                    > I am not in such a writing mood lately, besides drabbling for the OSA drabbling challenges. Are these welcome too? Should they be posted to the LJ community?
                     
                    Absolutely! Any writing at all that is related to the Sil or its related texts (like HoMe) is welcome on our list or in our LJ. And ideas from other groups or challenge pieces for other groups that would be of interest here are more than welcome, always.
                     
                    You can post to the LJ community and also let people on this list know that you've posted. While many of us are members of both, not everyone is, and that's a good way to assure that all who might be interested know about your work. (I, for one--being into drabbling quite a bit lately myself--am very interested! :D)
                     
                    Best regards,
                    Dawn :)
                    --
                    ~oOo~
                    Dawn Felagund
                    Read my stories or visit me online at http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=dawn_felagund

                    Are you a relentless First-Ager?
                    Check out the Silmarillion Writers' Guild at http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=silwritersguild.
                    ~oOo~
                     
                    -------------- Original message --------------
                    --- In SilmarillionWritersGuild@yahoogroups.com, DawnFelagund@c... wrote:
                    > Hi, Rhapsody,
                    > Wow, what wonderful research!

                    You're welcome.

                    > > I do have a weird fascination for the sons of F�anor (Maglor
                    > > specifically)
                    >
                    > LoL! You and 90% of the group, I think!

                    Hehehe, Maglor or F�anorians in general? It is nice to meet more
                    people who like them as well (despite their vices).

                    > > (shuffles back into the corner)
                    >
                    > Hopefully not for long, not with your research skills :) Anyway,
                    > welcome to the group! Hope to see you around,

                    I will try as much as I can. I am not in such a writing mood lately,
                    besides drabbling for the OSA drabbling challenges. Are these welcome
                    too? Should they be posted to the LJ community?

                    Rhapsody


                  • rhapsody_the_bard
                    ... of course, Nerdanel. For the MEFA s I stumbled upon Maglor stories... for the lj community do_me_maglor I proposed to start gathering stories about him, so
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 5, 2005
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                      --- In SilmarillionWritersGuild@yahoogroups.com, DawnFelagund@c...
                      wrote:
                      > Rhapsody the Bard wrote:
                      > > Hehehe, Maglor or Fëanorians in general? It is nice to meet more
                      > > people who like them as well (despite their vices).
                      >
                      > I would say the Feanorians in general are very popular here, with
                      > Maglor being one of the most popular. (Maedhros, of course, gets
                      > his due share of attention!) And many of us are quite adept at
                      > defending their characters, despite said vices :)

                      :) I am looking forward to being directed to fic about these guys and
                      of course, Nerdanel. For the MEFA's I stumbled upon Maglor stories...
                      for the lj community do_me_maglor I proposed to start gathering
                      stories about him, so any suggestions...

                      > I know when I really started to get into the Sil community and
                      > started this group, I was amazed by the number of Feanatics out
                      > there. In general Tolkien groups, they seemed to always have such a
                      > bad rap, and I always felt rather alone in my defense of them...but
                      > many people who read (primarily) The Sil, it seems, realize the
                      > depth of their characters, especially for writing purposes. Okay,
                      > this is a dangerous topic for me, so I'm going to forestall the
                      > ramble for the moment! :D

                      :c) The thing is, for me, with Tolkien: characters are never black
                      and white, most are grey or beige. For example many think Curufin was
                      an all dark boy, but in HOME you find enough to put him in a
                      different spotlight. Celegorm is an interesting one, I recently
                      started to do a bit more research about him and yes he isn't a saint,
                      but I can understand the why given his character and upbringing.

                      Anyhow: lots of food for thought :) Loads of plotbunnies...

                      > > I am not in such a writing mood lately, besides drabbling for the
                      > > OSA drabbling challenges. Are these welcome too? Should they be
                      > > posted to the LJ community?
                      >
                      > Absolutely! Any writing at all that is related to the Sil or its
                      > related texts (like HoMe) is welcome on our list or in our LJ. And
                      > ideas from other groups or challenge pieces for other groups that
                      > would be of interest here are more than welcome, always.

                      One tiny question... Isildur for example, I can imagine that stories
                      about him are easily grouped under LOTR, but then to me: he feels
                      more a Silmarillion character. Where in the third age do you reckon
                      it bno longer can fall under the Silm?

                      > You can post to the LJ community and also let people on this list
                      > know that you've posted. While many of us are members of both, not
                      > everyone is, and that's a good way to assure that all who might be
                      > interested know about your work. (I, for one--being into drabbling
                      > quite a bit lately myself--am very interested! :D)

                      Thanks :) I posted. A Vignette named Oaths Foresworn featuring
                      Maglor/Amrod, three drabbles: one with Lúthien, one with Dior and one
                      with Maglor.

                      I have more, but all in good time... thanks for the positive vibes!

                      Rhapsody
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