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Re: [SherlineCNC] Motors difficult to turn by hand?

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  • janrwl
    In a message dated 3/24/2013 9:27:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time, SMarrocco@ringsidecreative.com writes: It happens even when they are not attached to the mill
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 24 2:20 PM
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      In a message dated 3/24/2013 9:27:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
      SMarrocco@... writes:

      It happens even when they are not attached to the mill and hand cranked.
      They might be smooth for several rotations, then rough again.

      Is this normal for steppers or have I possibly received a bad set? If they
      are that tough to turn it seems like having the hand cranks would be a
      waste.<<
      I haven't yet read all the other suggestions, but I will give you MY 2'
      worth: You probably are simply shorting two or more of the lead-wires
      together! The reverse-EMF generated by the stepper acting as a "generator" does
      that.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • kungfumachinist
      ... I have a nearly instant on setup, just 4 seconds from turning it on to having power feed (no computer to boot up). So manually turning the hand cranks is
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 25 6:01 AM
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        --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, Tom Wade <tom@...> wrote:

        > I have the double ended motors on my Sherline, and find that I never use
        > the hand cranks. My impression is that no one else uses the hand cranks
        > either.

        I have a "nearly instant on" setup, just 4 seconds from turning it on to having power feed (no computer to boot up). So manually turning the hand cranks is rare for me, too. I do use them, however, mostly for maintenance, to check for binding and whatnot. I also have electronic backlash compensation in my controller so I check the backlash with the power off using the hand cranks.

        /Daryl
      • jowhowho
        If you re still looking for something to do before you install your stepper motors, you can wire two motors together so that one drives the other! Ah, endless
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 25 11:12 AM
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          If you're still looking for something to do before you install your stepper motors, you can wire two motors together so that one drives the other! Ah, endless hours of fun.....
        • Joseph L. Gelsomino
          But what controller software are you using to make them run? I have Mach 3 install and can t get the motors to turn. Can anyone help me figure this out as to
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 25 3:33 PM
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            But what controller software are you using to make them run? I have Mach 3
            install and can't get the motors to turn. Can anyone help me figure this out
            as to why I can't get them to move?



            Wacko



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • intenselymellow
            I absolutely use my hand wheels! I need em to drive the Sherline DRO. But even if I didn t, I use the machines by hand for one offs almost as often as I run
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 25 3:43 PM
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              I absolutely use my hand wheels!

              I need 'em to drive the Sherline DRO.

              But even if I didn't, I use the machines by hand for one offs almost
              as often as I run CNC parts. I also use them for edge finding, setting
              a particular position as "zero" and so forth.

              Frankly the notion of using the CNC control to micro-position the
              machine scares me silly. I issue "G00 ...." commands all the time.
              But I rarely ever touch the cursor keys. I can't count the number
              of times I've hit a cursor key with the wrong scale in place or
              whatever and way over shot my mark. Which would have either
              ruined a part or broken a tool.

              Call me one of the few...

              Cheers,

              Jeff




              On Sun, March 24, 2013 2:19 pm, Tom Wade wrote:
              > They should always be difficult to turn. Have no idea why they would
              > sometimes be easy to turn.
              >
              > I have the double ended motors on my Sherline, and find that I never use
              > the hand cranks. My impression is that no one else uses the hand cranks
              > either.
              >
              > My Bridgeport doesn't have hand cranks, and I don't miss them at all.
              >
              > Tom Wade
              > Hope, Indiana
            • Thayer Syme
              ... Jeff, I used to have the same problem with jogging until I decided to leave it set to .001 increments. My rapids are set at 75 ipm so I get that with
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 25 5:02 PM
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                >Frankly the notion of using the CNC control to micro-position the
                >machine scares me silly. I issue "G00 ...." commands all the time.
                >But I rarely ever touch the cursor keys. I can't count the number
                >of times I've hit a cursor key with the wrong scale in place or
                >whatever and way over shot my mark. Which would have either
                >ruined a part or broken a tool.

                Jeff,

                I used to have the same problem with jogging until I decided to leave
                it set to .001 increments. My rapids are set at 75 ipm so I get that
                with <shift> plus arrow keys. I have the actual motion rate set to 5%
                I think, or there about, so with just the arrow keys I have a feed
                rate of maybe 5 ipm. I can then switch to .001 jogging quickly with
                <ctrl> plus arrow keys. I find this combination works very well for
                me and I can find edges quite quickly working that way. I used to
                change the micro positioning scale to then accurately move for the
                offset, but then I learned how to drive with the MDI screen.

                I do have cranks on all three axes and use them for rough positioning
                but never fine tuning. My understanding is that the motors can move a
                step or two as you press the reset button which would likely negate
                the accuracy of manual edge finding.

                My setup is the A2Z CNC Monster Mill, Sherline 10k spindle, Keling
                steppers and power supply, a Gecko G540 driver and Mach 3.

                Thayer
              • jowhowho
                ... ....I have Mach 3 install and can t get the motors to turn. Can anyone help me figure this out as to why I can t get them to move? There are too many
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 25 11:08 PM
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                  --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph L. Gelsomino" <jgelsomino11@...> wrote:
                  "....I have Mach 3 install and can't get the motors to turn. Can anyone help me figure this out as to why I can't get them to move?"



                  There are too many possibilities.....

                  What sort of system do you have? Lathe? Mill? Computer brand? Stepper controller brand? Do you have any support from Artsoft or Sherline, or any other vendors? Do you have another working system? Do you have any ideas what the problem is or is not? What have you observed? Do the motors buzz or hum? Are the motors warm? Are there any lights that are on or off and shouldn't be? Is the stepper controller warm? Is the stepper controller's power supply warm? Has this system or a previous system this one evolved from ever run? Does the computer think the motors are turning? Do you have a VOM? Etc.


                  Be verbose.
                • Ron Ginger
                  ... You will need to provide a lot more info on what you have and what happens before we can answer that. You might also find better response to Mach questions
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 26 5:06 AM
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                    > Posted by: "Joseph L. Gelsomino"jgelsomino11@... wackowolf35
                    > Date: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:33 pm ((PDT))
                    >
                    > But what controller software are you using to make them run? I have Mach 3
                    > install and can't get the motors to turn. Can anyone help me figure this out
                    > as to why I can't get them to move?

                    You will need to provide a lot more info on what you have and what
                    happens before we can answer that. You might also find better response
                    to Mach questions on the mach list instead of the Sherline list.

                    The best way is to download the Mach Installation and configuration
                    manual and follow its step by step explanation. I know that is correct
                    and will work every time because I had a hand in getting it written.

                    ron ginger
                  • Joseph L. Gelsomino
                    I am using the Mach 3. I can get it to show movement in the run window but the motors do not move. I tested with a meter and I am not getting a good read (0.04
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 26 5:16 AM
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                      I am using the Mach 3. I can get it to show movement in the run window but
                      the motors do not move. I tested with a meter and I am not getting a good
                      read (0.04 was the highest ). So it is the port. I can't change the port
                      settings in the bios, it is either on or off, there is no setting to change
                      to EPP or ECP. So if I am right I need a parallel port that works.



                      Wacko



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ron Thompson
                      ... I second the suggestion you go to the Mach forum for quick answers. That said, make sure the correct port address is entered in Mach3. Then make sure the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 26 7:54 AM
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                        On 3/26/2013 8:16 AM, Joseph L. Gelsomino wrote:
                        >
                        > I am using the Mach 3. I can get it to show movement in the run window but
                        > the motors do not move. I tested with a meter and I am not getting a good
                        > read (0.04 was the highest ). So it is the port. I can't change the port
                        > settings in the bios, it is either on or off, there is no setting to
                        > change
                        > to EPP or ECP. So if I am right I need a parallel port that works.
                        >
                        > Wacko
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this message.
                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
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                        >
                        I second the suggestion you go to the Mach forum for quick answers.
                        That said, make sure the correct port address is entered in Mach3. Then
                        make sure the port and pins are set correctly.
                        This is not plug and play. You need to read the manual and configure
                        each parameter for it to work correctly.

                        --


                        Ron Thompson
                        On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA

                        Think, Draw, Print. 3D printers ROCK!

                        http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/PrusaMendel2012-1/

                        http://www.plansandprojects.com My hobby pages are here:
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • intenselymellow
                        Sorry for the late reply... I should have added that I have sepparate switches on each axis to enable or disable them independently. That makes a whole lot of
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 28 4:24 PM
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                          Sorry for the late reply...

                          I should have added that I have sepparate switches on each axis to
                          enable or disable them independently. That makes a whole lot of
                          difference. Even relatively slow cranking with the driver "off"
                          can generate enough back EMF to semi-power driver and make cranking
                          really hard. Disabling them makes quite a difference.

                          True, moving the steppers manually can put you off by as much as two
                          steps when you switch the drivers back on. But on average it's more
                          like 1 step. Given 200 step per rev steppers on my .050 per rev
                          screw that's (theoretically) .00025 per step and a deviation of
                          at most a half thou, more likely much less, which for most work is
                          silly talk anyway. Though that would be different if you're using
                          5 TPI screws...

                          I suppose I shouldn't have said "micro-position." That's misleading.
                          What I meant was I'm a lot more comfortable delicately sneaking up on
                          locations slowly, carefully and manually and by feel. My "finger
                          memory" for turning the hand wheels is very reliable and the tactile
                          feedback helps. My "finger memory" for those shift-alt-control cursor
                          keys is much les reliable. Which is, o course, my own fault. Slowing
                          things down doesn't help much because once you've hit the wrong key
                          (or the right one with the wrong modifier) the part or tool is likely
                          ruined before realize there's a problem, let alone hit the E-stop.

                          MDI is the other thorn in my side. I still use it all the time. Love
                          it. But if I had a dime for every time I pressed "cursor up" to scroll
                          back through the history and moved the table instead... Sigh.

                          No pleasing some people, eh? :)

                          Anyway I see where you're coming from. My point was simply that
                          some people really do use the hand wheels on CNC'd machines for
                          any number of reasons.

                          Jeff


                          On Mon, March 25, 2013 8:02 pm, Thayer Syme wrote:
                          > Jeff,
                          >
                          > I used to have the same problem with jogging until I decided to leave
                          > it set to .001 increments. My rapids are set at 75 ipm so I get that
                          > with <shift> plus arrow keys. I have the actual motion rate set to 5%
                          > I think, or there about, so with just the arrow keys I have a feed
                          > rate of maybe 5 ipm. I can then switch to .001 jogging quickly with
                          > <ctrl> plus arrow keys. I find this combination works very well for
                          > me and I can find edges quite quickly working that way. I used to
                          > change the micro positioning scale to then accurately move for the
                          > offset, but then I learned how to drive with the MDI screen.
                          >
                          > I do have cranks on all three axes and use them for rough positioning
                          > but never fine tuning. My understanding is that the motors can move a
                          > step or two as you press the reset button which would likely negate
                          > the accuracy of manual edge finding.
                          >
                          > My setup is the A2Z CNC Monster Mill, Sherline 10k spindle, Keling
                          > steppers and power supply, a Gecko G540 driver and Mach 3.
                          >
                          > Thayer
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