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Motors difficult to turn by hand?

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  • Marrocco, Sam
    Just purchased some new nema23 motors for my new sherline mill with double shafts so I could keep the hand cranks. I don t yet have my driver to control and
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 24, 2013
      Just purchased some new nema23 motors for my new sherline mill with double shafts so I could keep the hand cranks. I don't yet have my driver to control and test them with the computer yet. After hookup, I noticed that two of them, when hand turned, move smooth sometimes but very rough other times. It's almost as though they are "grinding" against something internally when hand cranked, then slip suddenly and turn smooth again. It happens even when they are not attached to the mill and hand cranked. They might be smooth for several rotations, then rough again.

      Is this normal for steppers or have I possibly received a bad set? If they are that tough to turn it seems like having the hand cranks would be a waste.

      Sam Marrocco
      Chief Technical Officer
      248-548-2500 Main
      248-910-3344 Cell

      "Just because no one understands you doesn't make you an artist."

      RINGSIDE CREATIVE | INTEGRATED MEDIA STUDIO™
      http://www.ringsidecreative.com

      Find us on Facebook.

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    • Thayer Syme
      Sam, I had the same problems with my motors when I first got them. I finally realized it was being caused as some of the wire leads were contacting each other.
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 24, 2013
        Sam,

        I had the same problems with my motors when I
        first got them. I finally realized it was being
        caused as some of the wire leads were contacting
        each other. I expect if you fan them all out so
        nothing is shorting the motors will turn fine.

        Thayer


        >Just purchased some new nema23 motors for my new
        >sherline mill with double shafts so I could keep
        >the hand cranks. I don't yet have my driver to
        >control and test them with the computer yet.
        >After hookup, I noticed that two of them, when
        >hand turned, move smooth sometimes but very
        >rough other times. It's almost as though they
        >are "grinding" against something internally when
        >hand cranked, then slip suddenly and turn smooth
        >again. It happens even when they are not
        >attached to the mill and hand cranked. They
        >might be smooth for several rotations, then
        >rough again.
        >
        >Is this normal for steppers or have I possibly
        >received a bad set? If they are that tough to
        >turn it seems like having the hand cranks would
        >be a waste.
        >
        >Sam Marrocco
        >Chief Technical Officer
        >248-548-2500 Main
        >248-910-3344 Cell
        >
        >"Just because no one understands you doesn't make you an artist."
        >
        > RINGSIDE CREATIVE | INTEGRATED MEDIA STUDIO
        >http://www.ringsidecreative.com
        >
        >Find us on Facebook.
        >
        >Please consider the environment before printing this email.
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Tony Zampini
        Sam, Make sure no exposed wires are touching each other. If you short out any of the motor’s coils, the effect you are seeing will occur. Tony From:
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 24, 2013
          Sam,
          Make sure no exposed wires are touching each other. If you
          short out any of the motor’s coils, the effect you are seeing
          will occur.
          Tony


          From: Marrocco, Sam
          Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 10:26 AM
          To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SherlineCNC] Motors difficult to turn by hand?


          Just purchased some new nema23 motors for my new sherline mill with double shafts so I could keep the hand cranks. I don't yet have my driver to control and test them with the computer yet. After hookup, I noticed that two of them, when hand turned, move smooth sometimes but very rough other times. It's almost as though they are "grinding" against something internally when hand cranked, then slip suddenly and turn smooth again. It happens even when they are not attached to the mill and hand cranked. They might be smooth for several rotations, then rough again.

          Is this normal for steppers or have I possibly received a bad set? If they are that tough to turn it seems like having the hand cranks would be a waste.

          Sam Marrocco
          Chief Technical Officer
          248-548-2500 Main
          248-910-3344 Cell

          "Just because no one understands you doesn't make you an artist."

          RINGSIDE CREATIVE | INTEGRATED MEDIA STUDIO™
          http://www.ringsidecreative.com

          Find us on Facebook.

          Please consider the environment before printing this email.





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Marrocco, Sam
          ... Tony, Thayer, That was the issue-- thanks for the quick response.. I had bundled up the wires and they were occasionally shorting. Whew! Thought I d gotten
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 24, 2013
            On Mar 24, 2013, at 10:51 AM, "Tony Zampini" <zampini1@...> wrote:

            > Sam,
            > Make sure no exposed wires are touching each other. If you
            > short out any of the motor’s coils, the effect you are seeing
            > will occur.
            > Tony
            >
            >

            Tony, Thayer,

            That was the issue-- thanks for the quick response.. I had bundled up the wires and they were occasionally shorting. Whew! Thought I'd gotten a couple of lemons because it really felt like something inside was grinding!

            Sam Marrocco
            Chief Technical Officer
            248-548-2500 Main
            248-910-3344 Cell

            "Just because no one understands you doesn't make you an artist."

            RINGSIDE CREATIVE | INTEGRATED MEDIA STUDIO™
            http://www.ringsidecreative.com

            Find us on Facebook.

            Please consider the environment before printing this email.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • R.L. Wurdack
            Just the magnetic poles rubbing... :
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 24, 2013
              Just the magnetic poles rubbing... :<)
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Marrocco, Sam
              To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 8:09 AM
              Subject: Re: [SherlineCNC] Motors difficult to turn by hand?





              On Mar 24, 2013, at 10:51 AM, "Tony Zampini" <zampini1@...> wrote:

              > Sam,
              > Make sure no exposed wires are touching each other. If you
              > short out any of the motor’s coils, the effect you are seeing
              > will occur.
              > Tony
              >
              >

              Tony, Thayer,

              That was the issue-- thanks for the quick response.. I had bundled up the wires and they were occasionally shorting. Whew! Thought I'd gotten a couple of lemons because it really felt like something inside was grinding!

              Sam Marrocco
              Chief Technical Officer
              248-548-2500 Main
              248-910-3344 Cell

              "Just because no one understands you doesn't make you an artist."

              RINGSIDE CREATIVE | INTEGRATED MEDIA STUDIO™
              http://www.ringsidecreative.com

              Find us on Facebook.

              Please consider the environment before printing this email.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tom Wade
              They should always be difficult to turn. Have no idea why they would sometimes be easy to turn. I have the double ended motors on my Sherline, and find that I
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 24, 2013
                They should always be difficult to turn. Have no idea why they would
                sometimes be easy to turn.

                I have the double ended motors on my Sherline, and find that I never use
                the hand cranks. My impression is that no one else uses the hand cranks
                either.

                My Bridgeport doesn't have hand cranks, and I don't miss them at all.

                Tom Wade
                Hope, Indiana


                On 3/24/2013 10:26 AM, Marrocco, Sam wrote:
                >
                > Just purchased some new nema23 motors for my new sherline mill with
                > double shafts so I could keep the hand cranks. I don't yet have my
                > driver to control and test them with the computer yet. After hookup, I
                > noticed that two of them, when hand turned, move smooth sometimes but
                > very rough other times. It's almost as though they are "grinding"
                > against something internally when hand cranked, then slip suddenly and
                > turn smooth again. It happens even when they are not attached to the
                > mill and hand cranked. They might be smooth for several rotations,
                > then rough again.
                >
                > Is this normal for steppers or have I possibly received a bad set? If
                > they are that tough to turn it seems like having the hand cranks would
                > be a waste.
                >
                > Sam Marrocco
                > Chief Technical Officer
                > 248-548-2500 Main
                > 248-910-3344 Cell
                >
                > "Just because no one understands you doesn't make you an artist."
                >
                > RINGSIDE CREATIVE | INTEGRATED MEDIA STUDIO™
                > http://www.ringsidecreative.com
                >
                > Find us on Facebook.
                >
                > Please consider the environment before printing this email.
                >
                >
              • Jeffrey Birt
                I have found that when folks are first starting out about 50% of them think they want to be able to hand crank the machine. After they try it 99% of them
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 24, 2013
                  I have found that when folks are first starting out about 50% of them think they want to be able to hand crank the machine. After they try it 99% of them don’t like it (the cogging feeling of the stepper motor) or they find that you can do things very easily and quickly by using MDI. There are a few folks that really like the hand cranks but most don’t.



                  Jeff Birt

                  Soigeneris.com



                  From: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Wade
                  Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 1:19 PM
                  To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: Marrocco, Sam
                  Subject: Re: [SherlineCNC] Motors difficult to turn by hand?





                  They should always be difficult to turn. Have no idea why they would
                  sometimes be easy to turn.

                  I have the double ended motors on my Sherline, and find that I never use
                  the hand cranks. My impression is that no one else uses the hand cranks
                  either.

                  My Bridgeport doesn't have hand cranks, and I don't miss them at all.

                  Tom Wade
                  Hope, Indiana

                  On 3/24/2013 10:26 AM, Marrocco, Sam wrote:
                  >
                  > Just purchased some new nema23 motors for my new sherline mill with
                  > double shafts so I could keep the hand cranks. I don't yet have my
                  > driver to control and test them with the computer yet. After hookup, I
                  > noticed that two of them, when hand turned, move smooth sometimes but
                  > very rough other times. It's almost as though they are "grinding"
                  > against something internally when hand cranked, then slip suddenly and
                  > turn smooth again. It happens even when they are not attached to the
                  > mill and hand cranked. They might be smooth for several rotations,
                  > then rough again.
                  >
                  > Is this normal for steppers or have I possibly received a bad set? If
                  > they are that tough to turn it seems like having the hand cranks would
                  > be a waste.
                  >
                  > Sam Marrocco
                  > Chief Technical Officer
                  > 248-548-2500 Main
                  > 248-910-3344 Cell
                  >
                  > "Just because no one understands you doesn't make you an artist."
                  >
                  > RINGSIDE CREATIVE | INTEGRATED MEDIA STUDIO™
                  > http://www.ringsidecreative.com
                  >
                  > Find us on Facebook.
                  >
                  > Please consider the environment before printing this email.
                  >
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • janrwl
                  In a message dated 3/24/2013 9:27:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time, SMarrocco@ringsidecreative.com writes: It happens even when they are not attached to the mill
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 24, 2013
                    In a message dated 3/24/2013 9:27:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
                    SMarrocco@... writes:

                    It happens even when they are not attached to the mill and hand cranked.
                    They might be smooth for several rotations, then rough again.

                    Is this normal for steppers or have I possibly received a bad set? If they
                    are that tough to turn it seems like having the hand cranks would be a
                    waste.<<
                    I haven't yet read all the other suggestions, but I will give you MY 2'
                    worth: You probably are simply shorting two or more of the lead-wires
                    together! The reverse-EMF generated by the stepper acting as a "generator" does
                    that.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • kungfumachinist
                    ... I have a nearly instant on setup, just 4 seconds from turning it on to having power feed (no computer to boot up). So manually turning the hand cranks is
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 25, 2013
                      --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, Tom Wade <tom@...> wrote:

                      > I have the double ended motors on my Sherline, and find that I never use
                      > the hand cranks. My impression is that no one else uses the hand cranks
                      > either.

                      I have a "nearly instant on" setup, just 4 seconds from turning it on to having power feed (no computer to boot up). So manually turning the hand cranks is rare for me, too. I do use them, however, mostly for maintenance, to check for binding and whatnot. I also have electronic backlash compensation in my controller so I check the backlash with the power off using the hand cranks.

                      /Daryl
                    • jowhowho
                      If you re still looking for something to do before you install your stepper motors, you can wire two motors together so that one drives the other! Ah, endless
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 25, 2013
                        If you're still looking for something to do before you install your stepper motors, you can wire two motors together so that one drives the other! Ah, endless hours of fun.....
                      • Joseph L. Gelsomino
                        But what controller software are you using to make them run? I have Mach 3 install and can t get the motors to turn. Can anyone help me figure this out as to
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 25, 2013
                          But what controller software are you using to make them run? I have Mach 3
                          install and can't get the motors to turn. Can anyone help me figure this out
                          as to why I can't get them to move?



                          Wacko



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • intenselymellow
                          I absolutely use my hand wheels! I need em to drive the Sherline DRO. But even if I didn t, I use the machines by hand for one offs almost as often as I run
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 25, 2013
                            I absolutely use my hand wheels!

                            I need 'em to drive the Sherline DRO.

                            But even if I didn't, I use the machines by hand for one offs almost
                            as often as I run CNC parts. I also use them for edge finding, setting
                            a particular position as "zero" and so forth.

                            Frankly the notion of using the CNC control to micro-position the
                            machine scares me silly. I issue "G00 ...." commands all the time.
                            But I rarely ever touch the cursor keys. I can't count the number
                            of times I've hit a cursor key with the wrong scale in place or
                            whatever and way over shot my mark. Which would have either
                            ruined a part or broken a tool.

                            Call me one of the few...

                            Cheers,

                            Jeff




                            On Sun, March 24, 2013 2:19 pm, Tom Wade wrote:
                            > They should always be difficult to turn. Have no idea why they would
                            > sometimes be easy to turn.
                            >
                            > I have the double ended motors on my Sherline, and find that I never use
                            > the hand cranks. My impression is that no one else uses the hand cranks
                            > either.
                            >
                            > My Bridgeport doesn't have hand cranks, and I don't miss them at all.
                            >
                            > Tom Wade
                            > Hope, Indiana
                          • Thayer Syme
                            ... Jeff, I used to have the same problem with jogging until I decided to leave it set to .001 increments. My rapids are set at 75 ipm so I get that with
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 25, 2013
                              >Frankly the notion of using the CNC control to micro-position the
                              >machine scares me silly. I issue "G00 ...." commands all the time.
                              >But I rarely ever touch the cursor keys. I can't count the number
                              >of times I've hit a cursor key with the wrong scale in place or
                              >whatever and way over shot my mark. Which would have either
                              >ruined a part or broken a tool.

                              Jeff,

                              I used to have the same problem with jogging until I decided to leave
                              it set to .001 increments. My rapids are set at 75 ipm so I get that
                              with <shift> plus arrow keys. I have the actual motion rate set to 5%
                              I think, or there about, so with just the arrow keys I have a feed
                              rate of maybe 5 ipm. I can then switch to .001 jogging quickly with
                              <ctrl> plus arrow keys. I find this combination works very well for
                              me and I can find edges quite quickly working that way. I used to
                              change the micro positioning scale to then accurately move for the
                              offset, but then I learned how to drive with the MDI screen.

                              I do have cranks on all three axes and use them for rough positioning
                              but never fine tuning. My understanding is that the motors can move a
                              step or two as you press the reset button which would likely negate
                              the accuracy of manual edge finding.

                              My setup is the A2Z CNC Monster Mill, Sherline 10k spindle, Keling
                              steppers and power supply, a Gecko G540 driver and Mach 3.

                              Thayer
                            • jowhowho
                              ... ....I have Mach 3 install and can t get the motors to turn. Can anyone help me figure this out as to why I can t get them to move? There are too many
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 25, 2013
                                --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph L. Gelsomino" <jgelsomino11@...> wrote:
                                "....I have Mach 3 install and can't get the motors to turn. Can anyone help me figure this out as to why I can't get them to move?"



                                There are too many possibilities.....

                                What sort of system do you have? Lathe? Mill? Computer brand? Stepper controller brand? Do you have any support from Artsoft or Sherline, or any other vendors? Do you have another working system? Do you have any ideas what the problem is or is not? What have you observed? Do the motors buzz or hum? Are the motors warm? Are there any lights that are on or off and shouldn't be? Is the stepper controller warm? Is the stepper controller's power supply warm? Has this system or a previous system this one evolved from ever run? Does the computer think the motors are turning? Do you have a VOM? Etc.


                                Be verbose.
                              • Ron Ginger
                                ... You will need to provide a lot more info on what you have and what happens before we can answer that. You might also find better response to Mach questions
                                Message 15 of 18 , Mar 26, 2013
                                  > Posted by: "Joseph L. Gelsomino"jgelsomino11@... wackowolf35
                                  > Date: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:33 pm ((PDT))
                                  >
                                  > But what controller software are you using to make them run? I have Mach 3
                                  > install and can't get the motors to turn. Can anyone help me figure this out
                                  > as to why I can't get them to move?

                                  You will need to provide a lot more info on what you have and what
                                  happens before we can answer that. You might also find better response
                                  to Mach questions on the mach list instead of the Sherline list.

                                  The best way is to download the Mach Installation and configuration
                                  manual and follow its step by step explanation. I know that is correct
                                  and will work every time because I had a hand in getting it written.

                                  ron ginger
                                • Joseph L. Gelsomino
                                  I am using the Mach 3. I can get it to show movement in the run window but the motors do not move. I tested with a meter and I am not getting a good read (0.04
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Mar 26, 2013
                                    I am using the Mach 3. I can get it to show movement in the run window but
                                    the motors do not move. I tested with a meter and I am not getting a good
                                    read (0.04 was the highest ). So it is the port. I can't change the port
                                    settings in the bios, it is either on or off, there is no setting to change
                                    to EPP or ECP. So if I am right I need a parallel port that works.



                                    Wacko



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Ron Thompson
                                    ... I second the suggestion you go to the Mach forum for quick answers. That said, make sure the correct port address is entered in Mach3. Then make sure the
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Mar 26, 2013
                                      On 3/26/2013 8:16 AM, Joseph L. Gelsomino wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I am using the Mach 3. I can get it to show movement in the run window but
                                      > the motors do not move. I tested with a meter and I am not getting a good
                                      > read (0.04 was the highest ). So it is the port. I can't change the port
                                      > settings in the bios, it is either on or off, there is no setting to
                                      > change
                                      > to EPP or ECP. So if I am right I need a parallel port that works.
                                      >
                                      > Wacko
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > No virus found in this message.
                                      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
                                      > Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5704 - Release Date: 03/25/13
                                      >
                                      I second the suggestion you go to the Mach forum for quick answers.
                                      That said, make sure the correct port address is entered in Mach3. Then
                                      make sure the port and pins are set correctly.
                                      This is not plug and play. You need to read the manual and configure
                                      each parameter for it to work correctly.

                                      --


                                      Ron Thompson
                                      On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA

                                      Think, Draw, Print. 3D printers ROCK!

                                      http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/PrusaMendel2012-1/

                                      http://www.plansandprojects.com My hobby pages are here:
                                      http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/

                                      Visit the castinghobby FAQ:
                                      http://castinghobbyfaq.bareboogerhost.com/








                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • intenselymellow
                                      Sorry for the late reply... I should have added that I have sepparate switches on each axis to enable or disable them independently. That makes a whole lot of
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Mar 28, 2013
                                        Sorry for the late reply...

                                        I should have added that I have sepparate switches on each axis to
                                        enable or disable them independently. That makes a whole lot of
                                        difference. Even relatively slow cranking with the driver "off"
                                        can generate enough back EMF to semi-power driver and make cranking
                                        really hard. Disabling them makes quite a difference.

                                        True, moving the steppers manually can put you off by as much as two
                                        steps when you switch the drivers back on. But on average it's more
                                        like 1 step. Given 200 step per rev steppers on my .050 per rev
                                        screw that's (theoretically) .00025 per step and a deviation of
                                        at most a half thou, more likely much less, which for most work is
                                        silly talk anyway. Though that would be different if you're using
                                        5 TPI screws...

                                        I suppose I shouldn't have said "micro-position." That's misleading.
                                        What I meant was I'm a lot more comfortable delicately sneaking up on
                                        locations slowly, carefully and manually and by feel. My "finger
                                        memory" for turning the hand wheels is very reliable and the tactile
                                        feedback helps. My "finger memory" for those shift-alt-control cursor
                                        keys is much les reliable. Which is, o course, my own fault. Slowing
                                        things down doesn't help much because once you've hit the wrong key
                                        (or the right one with the wrong modifier) the part or tool is likely
                                        ruined before realize there's a problem, let alone hit the E-stop.

                                        MDI is the other thorn in my side. I still use it all the time. Love
                                        it. But if I had a dime for every time I pressed "cursor up" to scroll
                                        back through the history and moved the table instead... Sigh.

                                        No pleasing some people, eh? :)

                                        Anyway I see where you're coming from. My point was simply that
                                        some people really do use the hand wheels on CNC'd machines for
                                        any number of reasons.

                                        Jeff


                                        On Mon, March 25, 2013 8:02 pm, Thayer Syme wrote:
                                        > Jeff,
                                        >
                                        > I used to have the same problem with jogging until I decided to leave
                                        > it set to .001 increments. My rapids are set at 75 ipm so I get that
                                        > with <shift> plus arrow keys. I have the actual motion rate set to 5%
                                        > I think, or there about, so with just the arrow keys I have a feed
                                        > rate of maybe 5 ipm. I can then switch to .001 jogging quickly with
                                        > <ctrl> plus arrow keys. I find this combination works very well for
                                        > me and I can find edges quite quickly working that way. I used to
                                        > change the micro positioning scale to then accurately move for the
                                        > offset, but then I learned how to drive with the MDI screen.
                                        >
                                        > I do have cranks on all three axes and use them for rough positioning
                                        > but never fine tuning. My understanding is that the motors can move a
                                        > step or two as you press the reset button which would likely negate
                                        > the accuracy of manual edge finding.
                                        >
                                        > My setup is the A2Z CNC Monster Mill, Sherline 10k spindle, Keling
                                        > steppers and power supply, a Gecko G540 driver and Mach 3.
                                        >
                                        > Thayer
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