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Re: Thinking of anodizing the sherline aluminum tooling plate

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  • Eric
    Go with Stan s suggestion. Even if you do get the plate anodized, heli-coiled threads will stand up to the repeated threading in and out these holes will see
    Message 1 of 14 , May 6 10:24 AM
      Go with Stan's suggestion. Even if you do get the plate anodized, heli-coiled threads will stand up to the repeated threading in and out these holes will see longer than the thin anodize layer will.
      Enlarging the threads is not ideal because of the clamps you have, as you have stated.

      Eric


      --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "zodiaceng" <notamessenger@...> wrote:
      >
      > Unless you are doing Type III Class 2 hard anodize, the threads will not build up. Typical Type II anodize is too thin to make a difference, and it will not really harden the surface enough to warrant its use. Type III will build up roughly .002" so run a 10-32 GH5 or GH7 tap thru before hard anodize and you'll be good to go after. Every GH increase opens the pitch diameter by .0005" Typically most threads are done with a GH3 tap.
      >
      >
      > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, Stan Stocker <skstocker@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Good afternoon,
      > >
      > > All the considerations are indeed trade offs and preferences. It would
      > > look good :-)
      > >
      > > As for the threads, anodize will tighten up threaded holes by a few
      > > thou. Your plating shop should be able to give you good numbers and
      > > advise on dealing with that issue.
      > >
      > > In the aerospace/defense business we made lots of fixtures from
      > > aluminum, all sorts of alloys and plates. For production work we often
      > > installed threaded inserts in all threaded holes that would see repeated
      > > use. Back in the 1980's the specified inserts were free running
      > > helicoils. Adds expense, but the threads seldom wore out!
      > >
      > > And just to toss another consideration into the mix, for $200 you could
      > > get set up to do your own anodizing if that interests you.
      > >
      > > Take care,
      > > Stan
      > >
      > > On 05/05/2012 12:46 PM, rankinecyclce1 wrote:
      > > > thanks for advice guys.
      > > >
      > > > Even though the hard surface can dull cutters, it should be ok because I dont intend to cut into the tooling plate at all, and if so it will be done by mistake. I intend to treat the tooling plate as a permanent 'modification' of a standard sherline, so milling into the tooling plate to me will mean milling into the sherline X axis bed itself to normal folks.
      > > >
      > > > Yeah its a good point about the slippery surface. The sherline vice is also anodized and the surface it sits on a normal mill is also anodized-anodized aluminum so an anodized tooling plate is no different in this sense than a normal sherline table. I hope clamping harder will be ok.
      > > >
      > > > Its a great point about the cost. I have the CNC version of the table so its around 76 dollars in the website. Yeah, price is probably the downside that I am considering if its worth it.
      > > >
      > > > I checked with a local anodizing place and its minimum around 200 dollars per run. My plan is to save up until I have enough parts from different projects that I want anodized and then send them all off to have it done including the tooling plate then its just a matter of if the tooling plate should go in the batch or not.
      > > >
      > > > Yeah, its also a good point about cutting out the threads and threading the next larger size. The problem will be fitting my existing clamps and other tools that are for the standard threads right now. Or maybe there are products to re-thread the stripped out threads like loctite? I dont think loctite is very good for long term stuff though since its pretty brittle and flakes off I'd imagine.
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • rankinecyclce1
      Again, thanks for the advice. The helicoil idea is interesting. I m wondering what is often used to secure it in the hole? Adhesive based or perhaps a top
      Message 2 of 14 , May 11 10:06 PM
        Again, thanks for the advice.

        The helicoil idea is interesting. I'm wondering what is often used to secure it in the hole? Adhesive based or perhaps a top plate to keep the coil constrained? I assume it is not very good for load bearing applications compared to normal threads depending on the situation perhaps?

        Will anodizing warp the part at all like introducing or relieving residual stresses? I suppose it will be uniform case hardenining so perhaps outside geometry wont warp. The ideal case is the plate stays flat after anodizing.

        The other cost issue perhaps is to instead of anodizing, spend the cost on 3 or 4 extra tooling plate at the same cost as a scrap throwaway part after a while.

        --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <buckeyevs@...> wrote:
        >
        > Go with Stan's suggestion. Even if you do get the plate anodized, heli-coiled threads will stand up to the repeated threading in and out these holes will see longer than the thin anodize layer will.
        > Enlarging the threads is not ideal because of the clamps you have, as you have stated.
        >
        > Eric
        >
        >
        > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "zodiaceng" <notamessenger@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Unless you are doing Type III Class 2 hard anodize, the threads will not build up. Typical Type II anodize is too thin to make a difference, and it will not really harden the surface enough to warrant its use. Type III will build up roughly .002" so run a 10-32 GH5 or GH7 tap thru before hard anodize and you'll be good to go after. Every GH increase opens the pitch diameter by .0005" Typically most threads are done with a GH3 tap.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, Stan Stocker <skstocker@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Good afternoon,
        > > >
        > > > All the considerations are indeed trade offs and preferences. It would
        > > > look good :-)
        > > >
        > > > As for the threads, anodize will tighten up threaded holes by a few
        > > > thou. Your plating shop should be able to give you good numbers and
        > > > advise on dealing with that issue.
        > > >
        > > > In the aerospace/defense business we made lots of fixtures from
        > > > aluminum, all sorts of alloys and plates. For production work we often
        > > > installed threaded inserts in all threaded holes that would see repeated
        > > > use. Back in the 1980's the specified inserts were free running
        > > > helicoils. Adds expense, but the threads seldom wore out!
        > > >
        > > > And just to toss another consideration into the mix, for $200 you could
        > > > get set up to do your own anodizing if that interests you.
        > > >
        > > > Take care,
        > > > Stan
        > > >
        > > > On 05/05/2012 12:46 PM, rankinecyclce1 wrote:
        > > > > thanks for advice guys.
        > > > >
        > > > > Even though the hard surface can dull cutters, it should be ok because I dont intend to cut into the tooling plate at all, and if so it will be done by mistake. I intend to treat the tooling plate as a permanent 'modification' of a standard sherline, so milling into the tooling plate to me will mean milling into the sherline X axis bed itself to normal folks.
        > > > >
        > > > > Yeah its a good point about the slippery surface. The sherline vice is also anodized and the surface it sits on a normal mill is also anodized-anodized aluminum so an anodized tooling plate is no different in this sense than a normal sherline table. I hope clamping harder will be ok.
        > > > >
        > > > > Its a great point about the cost. I have the CNC version of the table so its around 76 dollars in the website. Yeah, price is probably the downside that I am considering if its worth it.
        > > > >
        > > > > I checked with a local anodizing place and its minimum around 200 dollars per run. My plan is to save up until I have enough parts from different projects that I want anodized and then send them all off to have it done including the tooling plate then its just a matter of if the tooling plate should go in the batch or not.
        > > > >
        > > > > Yeah, its also a good point about cutting out the threads and threading the next larger size. The problem will be fitting my existing clamps and other tools that are for the standard threads right now. Or maybe there are products to re-thread the stripped out threads like loctite? I dont think loctite is very good for long term stuff though since its pretty brittle and flakes off I'd imagine.
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • EngFromSantaClara
        ... LokTite red (non-removable) Adhesive based or perhaps a top plate to keep the coil constrained? I assume it is not very good for load bearing applications
        Message 3 of 14 , May 11 10:31 PM
          --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "rankinecyclce1" <baboonhead11@...> wrote:
          >
          > Again, thanks for the advice.
          >
          > The helicoil idea is interesting. I'm wondering what is often used to secure it in the hole?

          LokTite red (non-removable)

          Adhesive based or perhaps a top plate to keep the coil constrained? I assume it is not very good for load bearing applications compared to normal threads depending on the situation perhaps?

          Used for aircraft engine cylinder heads...

          >
          > Will anodizing warp the part at all like introducing or relieving residual stresses? I suppose it will be uniform case hardenining so perhaps outside geometry wont warp. The ideal case is the plate stays flat after anodizing.

          Soft (colored) anodize is very thin. Hard anodize is like a case hardening. Neither cause warps as far as I know.

          >
          > The other cost issue perhaps is to instead of anodizing, spend the cost on 3 or 4 extra tooling plate at the same cost as a scrap throwaway part after a while.

          Hard anodize is very expensive, even more than a minimum order of soft anodize. Odds are that several consumable tooling plates from Sherline are competitive.

          Larry

          >
          > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <buckeyevs@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Go with Stan's suggestion. Even if you do get the plate anodized, heli-coiled threads will stand up to the repeated threading in and out these holes will see longer than the thin anodize layer will.
          > > Enlarging the threads is not ideal because of the clamps you have, as you have stated.
          > >
          > > Eric
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "zodiaceng" <notamessenger@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Unless you are doing Type III Class 2 hard anodize, the threads will not build up. Typical Type II anodize is too thin to make a difference, and it will not really harden the surface enough to warrant its use. Type III will build up roughly .002" so run a 10-32 GH5 or GH7 tap thru before hard anodize and you'll be good to go after. Every GH increase opens the pitch diameter by .0005" Typically most threads are done with a GH3 tap.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, Stan Stocker <skstocker@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Good afternoon,
          > > > >
          > > > > All the considerations are indeed trade offs and preferences. It would
          > > > > look good :-)
          > > > >
          > > > > As for the threads, anodize will tighten up threaded holes by a few
          > > > > thou. Your plating shop should be able to give you good numbers and
          > > > > advise on dealing with that issue.
          > > > >
          > > > > In the aerospace/defense business we made lots of fixtures from
          > > > > aluminum, all sorts of alloys and plates. For production work we often
          > > > > installed threaded inserts in all threaded holes that would see repeated
          > > > > use. Back in the 1980's the specified inserts were free running
          > > > > helicoils. Adds expense, but the threads seldom wore out!
          > > > >
          > > > > And just to toss another consideration into the mix, for $200 you could
          > > > > get set up to do your own anodizing if that interests you.
          > > > >
          > > > > Take care,
          > > > > Stan
          > > > >
          > > > > On 05/05/2012 12:46 PM, rankinecyclce1 wrote:
          > > > > > thanks for advice guys.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Even though the hard surface can dull cutters, it should be ok because I dont intend to cut into the tooling plate at all, and if so it will be done by mistake. I intend to treat the tooling plate as a permanent 'modification' of a standard sherline, so milling into the tooling plate to me will mean milling into the sherline X axis bed itself to normal folks.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Yeah its a good point about the slippery surface. The sherline vice is also anodized and the surface it sits on a normal mill is also anodized-anodized aluminum so an anodized tooling plate is no different in this sense than a normal sherline table. I hope clamping harder will be ok.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Its a great point about the cost. I have the CNC version of the table so its around 76 dollars in the website. Yeah, price is probably the downside that I am considering if its worth it.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I checked with a local anodizing place and its minimum around 200 dollars per run. My plan is to save up until I have enough parts from different projects that I want anodized and then send them all off to have it done including the tooling plate then its just a matter of if the tooling plate should go in the batch or not.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Yeah, its also a good point about cutting out the threads and threading the next larger size. The problem will be fitting my existing clamps and other tools that are for the standard threads right now. Or maybe there are products to re-thread the stripped out threads like loctite? I dont think loctite is very good for long term stuff though since its pretty brittle and flakes off I'd imagine.
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Hamilton Elliott
          Hi, You do not glue the helicoil in with anything, the spring in the coil keeps it in and it doesn t move. It is supposed to be stronger than the original
          Message 4 of 14 , May 12 1:50 AM
            Hi,
            You do not glue the helicoil in with anything, the spring in the coil keeps
            it in and it doesn't move. It is supposed to be stronger than the original
            threads because the load is spread over more of the threads. In a normal
            threaded hole the top couple of threads provide a lot of the holding force
            whereas the coil because of the slight movement allows it to be spread over
            all of the coil. This is what I have read about them! The disadvantage that
            I see is that the special drill and tap are expensive especially if you want
            to cover a lot of sizes. I only bought two, 10-32 and 6mm but you can find
            them easily on ebay.

            Regards,
            Hamilton

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com]
            > On Behalf Of rankinecyclce1
            > Sent: 12 May 2012 06:06
            > To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [SherlineCNC] Re: Thinking of anodizing the sherline aluminum
            > tooling plate
            >
            > Again, thanks for the advice.
            >
            > The helicoil idea is interesting. I'm wondering what is often used to
            > secure it in the hole? Adhesive based or perhaps a top plate to keep
            > the coil constrained? I assume it is not very good for load bearing
            > applications compared to normal threads depending on the situation
            > perhaps?
            >
            > Will anodizing warp the part at all like introducing or relieving
            > residual stresses? I suppose it will be uniform case hardenining so
            > perhaps outside geometry wont warp. The ideal case is the plate stays
            > flat after anodizing.
            >
            > The other cost issue perhaps is to instead of anodizing, spend the cost
            > on 3 or 4 extra tooling plate at the same cost as a scrap throwaway
            > part after a while.
            >
            > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <buckeyevs@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Go with Stan's suggestion. Even if you do get the plate anodized,
            > heli-coiled threads will stand up to the repeated threading in and out
            > these holes will see longer than the thin anodize layer will.
            > > Enlarging the threads is not ideal because of the clamps you have, as
            > you have stated.
            > >
            > > Eric
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "zodiaceng" <notamessenger@>
            > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Unless you are doing Type III Class 2 hard anodize, the threads
            > will not build up. Typical Type II anodize is too thin to make a
            > difference, and it will not really harden the surface enough to warrant
            > its use. Type III will build up roughly .002" so run a 10-32 GH5 or GH7
            > tap thru before hard anodize and you'll be good to go after. Every GH
            > increase opens the pitch diameter by .0005" Typically most threads are
            > done with a GH3 tap.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, Stan Stocker <skstocker@>
            > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Good afternoon,
            > > > >
            > > > > All the considerations are indeed trade offs and preferences. It
            > would
            > > > > look good :-)
            > > > >
            > > > > As for the threads, anodize will tighten up threaded holes by a
            > few
            > > > > thou. Your plating shop should be able to give you good numbers
            > and
            > > > > advise on dealing with that issue.
            > > > >
            > > > > In the aerospace/defense business we made lots of fixtures from
            > > > > aluminum, all sorts of alloys and plates. For production work we
            > often
            > > > > installed threaded inserts in all threaded holes that would see
            > repeated
            > > > > use. Back in the 1980's the specified inserts were free running
            > > > > helicoils. Adds expense, but the threads seldom wore out!
            > > > >
            > > > > And just to toss another consideration into the mix, for $200 you
            > could
            > > > > get set up to do your own anodizing if that interests you.
            > > > >
            > > > > Take care,
            > > > > Stan
            > > > >
            > > > > On 05/05/2012 12:46 PM, rankinecyclce1 wrote:
            > > > > > thanks for advice guys.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Even though the hard surface can dull cutters, it should be ok
            > because I dont intend to cut into the tooling plate at all, and if so
            > it will be done by mistake. I intend to treat the tooling plate as a
            > permanent 'modification' of a standard sherline, so milling into the
            > tooling plate to me will mean milling into the sherline X axis bed
            > itself to normal folks.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Yeah its a good point about the slippery surface. The sherline
            > vice is also anodized and the surface it sits on a normal mill is also
            > anodized-anodized aluminum so an anodized tooling plate is no different
            > in this sense than a normal sherline table. I hope clamping harder will
            > be ok.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Its a great point about the cost. I have the CNC version of the
            > table so its around 76 dollars in the website. Yeah, price is probably
            > the downside that I am considering if its worth it.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I checked with a local anodizing place and its minimum around
            > 200 dollars per run. My plan is to save up until I have enough parts
            > from different projects that I want anodized and then send them all off
            > to have it done including the tooling plate then its just a matter of
            > if the tooling plate should go in the batch or not.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Yeah, its also a good point about cutting out the threads and
            > threading the next larger size. The problem will be fitting my existing
            > clamps and other tools that are for the standard threads right now. Or
            > maybe there are products to re-thread the stripped out threads like
            > loctite? I dont think loctite is very good for long term stuff though
            > since its pretty brittle and flakes off I'd imagine.
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >


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          • Ron Thompson
            ... The geometry of the Helicoil insert keeps it in the hole. It is shaped like a spring. It screws in easily, but jams in reverse. It uses a special over
            Message 5 of 14 , May 12 4:10 AM
              On 5/12/2012 1:31 AM, EngFromSantaClara wrote:
              > > The helicoil idea is interesting. I'm wondering what is often used
              > to secure it in the hole?
              The geometry of the Helicoil insert keeps it in the hole. It is shaped
              like a spring. It screws in easily, but jams in reverse. It uses a
              special over sized tap, so you have to drill it larger.

              --


              Ron Thompson
              On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA

              Think, Draw, Print. 3D printers ROCK!

              http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/PrusaMendel2012-1/

              http://www.plansandprojects.com My hobby pages are here:
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            • Stan Stocker
              Greetings, Helicoils lock in place when you install them. You install them with the installation tool and snap off the tang. All done. Here s the word from
              Message 6 of 14 , May 12 6:55 AM
                Greetings,

                Helicoils lock in place when you install them. You install them with
                the installation tool and snap off the tang. All done. Here's the word
                from the horses mouth:

                http://www.helicoil.com.sg/HeliCoil-Screw-Thread-Insert-Types.htm

                I haven't heard of anodizing causing warping, just some dimensional
                changed from the coating, which you already know about.

                You mentioned that you had a CNC table. Does this mean you have a CNC
                mill, or just a CNC ready mill? Drilling a grid of holes in a piece of
                surplus aluminum jig plate is pretty easy on a CNC machine. In reality,
                as the hole locations are not critical, you can make tooling plates on a
                drill press with a fence and a batch of short wood strips as thick as
                the hole spacing. Tapping can be sort of a chore, but gun taps can be
                run in using a cordless drill.

                Aluminum jig plate shows up surplus now and then, it's precision ground,
                hard, and flat. Wonderful stuff, but very expensive to purchase new.

                Have fun,
                Stan

                On 05/12/2012 01:06 AM, rankinecyclce1 wrote:
                > Again, thanks for the advice.
                >
                > The helicoil idea is interesting. I'm wondering what is often used to secure it in the hole? Adhesive based or perhaps a top plate to keep the coil constrained? I assume it is not very good for load bearing applications compared to normal threads depending on the situation perhaps?
                >
                > Will anodizing warp the part at all like introducing or relieving residual stresses? I suppose it will be uniform case hardenining so perhaps outside geometry wont warp. The ideal case is the plate stays flat after anodizing.
                >
                > The other cost issue perhaps is to instead of anodizing, spend the cost on 3 or 4 extra tooling plate at the same cost as a scrap throwaway part after a while.
                >
                > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "Eric"<buckeyevs@...> wrote:
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.