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Using large 4" Tool Maker's Vise

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  • Bruce
    Hello all I have my new A2Z Monster Mill up and running. It s great! Still in set-up and learning CNC stage. Will post some pics when I have a chance. Got a
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 1, 2011
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      Hello all
      I have my new A2Z Monster Mill up and running. It's great! Still in set-up and learning CNC stage. Will post some pics when I have a chance.

      Got a quick question....

      I want to make 3.875 x 3.875 aluminum blocks from 4" sq. stock. Additional 1" and 2" spiral holes will be cnc'd on the corner of a block at 45 deg. angle. Making the block is easy.

      My dilema is my sherline rotaing toolmaker's vise is way to small. Can the A2Z mill handle a toolmakers vise with a 4.875" opening, about 9.5" x 4" x 3", about 20lbs. Will that amount weight wear out the gibs/strip glide thingys prematurely?

      Also, what are any other A2Z users thoughts about stacking 2 riser blocks off the Z axis behind the Sherline motor head to gain more throat length?

      Bruce
    • Thayer Syme
      ... Bruce, I do know some users are stacking risers. I am using just one myself. Don t know about the carrying capacity of the table. Thayer
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 1, 2011
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        >Hello all
        >I have my new A2Z Monster Mill up and running. It's great! Still in
        >set-up and learning CNC stage. Will post some pics when I have a
        >chance.
        >
        >Got a quick question....
        >
        >I want to make 3.875 x 3.875 aluminum blocks from 4" sq. stock.
        >Additional 1" and 2" spiral holes will be cnc'd on the corner of a
        >block at 45 deg. angle. Making the block is easy.
        >
        >My dilema is my sherline rotaing toolmaker's vise is way to small.
        >Can the A2Z mill handle a toolmakers vise with a 4.875" opening,
        >about 9.5" x 4" x 3", about 20lbs. Will that amount weight wear out
        >the gibs/strip glide thingys prematurely?
        >
        >Also, what are any other A2Z users thoughts about stacking 2 riser
        >blocks off the Z axis behind the Sherline motor head to gain more
        >throat length?


        Bruce,

        I do know some users are stacking risers. I am using just one myself.
        Don't know about the carrying capacity of the table.

        Thayer
      • Phil@Yahoo
        I ve used riser blocks just about anywhere you can put them at one time or another, and things worked OK. You just need to bear in mind that the more you
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 1, 2011
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          I've used riser blocks just about anywhere you can put them at one time or
          another, and things worked OK. You just need to bear in mind that the more
          you extend anything the more you compromise the machine's rigidity. That
          means lighter cuts and less expectation of precision due to flexing.
          Theoretically you could expand the work envelope to 24" in all three axes,
          but the machine wouldn't be good for cutting anything much harder than
          styrofoam. The Sherline machines were designed to achieve a balance of
          strength and precision for a certain range of tasks and materials. Every
          "improvement" comes at a cost in terms of compromising some other feature or
          capability. I suspect that Sherline left some money on the table by failing
          to recognize that not everyone who buys a desk-top mill wants to use it to
          build tiny steam engines.

          --Phil M.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Bruce" <bforgan@...>
          To: <SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 5:02 AM
          Subject: [SherlineCNC] Using large 4" Tool Maker's Vise


          > Hello all
          > I have my new A2Z Monster Mill up and running. It's great! Still in set-up
          > and learning CNC stage. Will post some pics when I have a chance.
          >
          > Got a quick question....
          >
          > I want to make 3.875 x 3.875 aluminum blocks from 4" sq. stock. Additional
          > 1" and 2" spiral holes will be cnc'd on the corner of a block at 45 deg.
          > angle. Making the block is easy.
          >
          > My dilema is my sherline rotaing toolmaker's vise is way to small. Can the
          > A2Z mill handle a toolmakers vise with a 4.875" opening, about 9.5" x 4" x
          > 3", about 20lbs. Will that amount weight wear out the gibs/strip glide
          > thingys prematurely?
          >
          > Also, what are any other A2Z users thoughts about stacking 2 riser blocks
          > off the Z axis behind the Sherline motor head to gain more throat length?
          >
          > Bruce
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • wongsterwish
          I do not have the monster mill column but have been using the a2z 2.2 spacer with the sherline s 1 to reach the middle of the a2z long Y base. Just
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 1, 2011
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            I do not have the monster mill column but have been using the a2z 2.2" spacer with the sherline's 1" to reach the middle of the a2z long Y base. Just experienced the lifting of the spindle when I tried to drill too fast. Had to slow down a great deal to avoid the problem.

            Regards,
            Wong


            --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "Phil@..." <yahoo@...> wrote:
            >
            > I've used riser blocks just about anywhere you can put them at one time or
            > another, and things worked OK. You just need to bear in mind that the more
            > you extend anything the more you compromise the machine's rigidity. That
            > means lighter cuts and less expectation of precision due to flexing.
            > Theoretically you could expand the work envelope to 24" in all three axes,
            > but the machine wouldn't be good for cutting anything much harder than
            > styrofoam. The Sherline machines were designed to achieve a balance of
            > strength and precision for a certain range of tasks and materials. Every
            > "improvement" comes at a cost in terms of compromising some other feature or
            > capability. I suspect that Sherline left some money on the table by failing
            > to recognize that not everyone who buys a desk-top mill wants to use it to
            > build tiny steam engines.
            >
            > --Phil M.
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Bruce" <bforgan@...>
            > To: <SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 5:02 AM
            > Subject: [SherlineCNC] Using large 4" Tool Maker's Vise
            >
            >
            > > Hello all
            > > I have my new A2Z Monster Mill up and running. It's great! Still in set-up
            > > and learning CNC stage. Will post some pics when I have a chance.
            > >
            > > Got a quick question....
            > >
            > > I want to make 3.875 x 3.875 aluminum blocks from 4" sq. stock. Additional
            > > 1" and 2" spiral holes will be cnc'd on the corner of a block at 45 deg.
            > > angle. Making the block is easy.
            > >
            > > My dilema is my sherline rotaing toolmaker's vise is way to small. Can the
            > > A2Z mill handle a toolmakers vise with a 4.875" opening, about 9.5" x 4" x
            > > 3", about 20lbs. Will that amount weight wear out the gibs/strip glide
            > > thingys prematurely?
            > >
            > > Also, what are any other A2Z users thoughts about stacking 2 riser blocks
            > > off the Z axis behind the Sherline motor head to gain more throat length?
            > >
            > > Bruce
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • imserv1
            ... You don t usually need a rotating vise with CNC. Can t you just program the part fixed in the vise, parallel to the axes? I have mounted a Sherline rotary
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 2, 2011
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              --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce" <bforgan@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello all
              > I have my new A2Z Monster Mill up and running. It's great! Still in set-up and learning CNC stage. Will post some pics when I have a chance.
              >
              > Got a quick question....
              >
              > I want to make 3.875 x 3.875 aluminum blocks from 4" sq. stock. Additional 1" and 2" spiral holes will be cnc'd on the corner of a block at 45 deg. angle. Making the block is easy.
              >
              > My dilema is my sherline rotaing toolmaker's vise is way to small. Can the A2Z mill handle a toolmakers vise with a 4.875" opening, about 9.5" x 4" x 3", about 20lbs. Will that amount weight wear out the gibs/strip glide thingys prematurely?


              You don't usually need a rotating vise with CNC. Can't you just program the part fixed in the vise, parallel to the axes?

              I have mounted a Sherline rotary table with servo motor, trunion, HTC 4" x 14" fixture plate, Sherline vise, and a part onto a Sherline standard table, with A2Z Precision lead screws. Absolutely no problem holding this load. You might want to make sure that you bolt your mill base to your workbench so the mill does not tip over if you get too far to either side with the heavy vise. I would recommend you check with A2Z about their load specification for any extended use with that kind of load.

              Fred Smith - IMService
              Happy Ground Hog Day
              http://www.imsrv.com
            • timgoldstein
              ... --SNIP--- ... As long as you use a some #2 way oil on the XY and Z you don t need to worry about wearing out the Turcite with any realistic weight you put
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 2, 2011
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                --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce" <bforgan@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello all
                > I have my new A2Z Monster Mill up and running. It's great! Still in set-up and learning CNC stage. Will post some pics when I have a chance.
                >

                --SNIP---

                > My dilema is my sherline rotaing toolmaker's vise is way to small. Can the A2Z mill handle a toolmakers vise with a 4.875" opening, about 9.5" x 4" x 3", about 20lbs. Will that amount weight wear out the gibs/strip glide thingys prematurely?

                As long as you use a some #2 way oil on the XY and Z you don't need to worry about wearing out the Turcite with any realistic weight you put on the machine. Really no wear with oiled Teflon. I would not be worried about using the vise from a weigh perspective.

                > Also, what are any other A2Z users thoughts about stacking 2 riser blocks off the Z axis behind the Sherline motor head to gain more throat length?

                We have many users that do that. The real issue is not flex in the Monster Mill itself, but really flex in the Sherline headstock coupler system. And that is the same whether using our parts or factory Sherline parts as we buy the steel pin from Sherline. Because of the tiny diameter in the center of the waist of the pin the part does stretch and distort as you try to pry the head with the down and side force of a cut. This lets the headstock, and all the spacers flex out some.

                General advise is use the least amount of extension on the headstock that the part requires. As you go out further, reduce how aggressive you are cutting. And as I suggested earlier, never plunge straight into a piece if you are not using a drill bit. Always ramp at a shallow 5 deg or less angle.

                Tim Goldstein
                A2Z Corp
                A2Z CNC division
                3955 S Mariposa St
                Englewood CO 80110
                720 833-9300
                Toll Free 877 754-7465

                www.A2ZCorp.us/store
                USA made accessories for desktop mills & lathes.
                Specialized No Mar tools for the jewelry industry.
              • Bruce
                Tim, what do you mean by, never plunge straight into a piece if you are not using a drill bit. Always ramp at a shallow 5 deg or less angle. So this means,
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 4, 2011
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                  Tim, what do you mean by, "never plunge straight into a piece if you are not using a drill bit. Always ramp at a shallow 5 deg or less angle."
                  So this means, lets say, CNC cutting a simple 2" x 1" oval slot through .25" thick alum. with a .25" centerline end mill in .0125 passes that the bit ramps down at a 5 deg slope as it continues to move forward on it's track after completing a circuit? Does Mach3 automatically do this?

                  Bruce


                  --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "timgoldstein" <timg@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce" <bforgan@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello all
                  > > I have my new A2Z Monster Mill up and running. It's great! Still in set-up and learning CNC stage. Will post some pics when I have a chance.
                  > >
                  >
                  > --SNIP---
                  >
                  > > My dilema is my sherline rotaing toolmaker's vise is way to small. Can the A2Z mill handle a toolmakers vise with a 4.875" opening, about 9.5" x 4" x 3", about 20lbs. Will that amount weight wear out the gibs/strip glide thingys prematurely?
                  >
                  > As long as you use a some #2 way oil on the XY and Z you don't need to worry about wearing out the Turcite with any realistic weight you put on the machine. Really no wear with oiled Teflon. I would not be worried about using the vise from a weigh perspective.
                  >
                  > > Also, what are any other A2Z users thoughts about stacking 2 riser blocks off the Z axis behind the Sherline motor head to gain more throat length?
                  >
                  > We have many users that do that. The real issue is not flex in the Monster Mill itself, but really flex in the Sherline headstock coupler system. And that is the same whether using our parts or factory Sherline parts as we buy the steel pin from Sherline. Because of the tiny diameter in the center of the waist of the pin the part does stretch and distort as you try to pry the head with the down and side force of a cut. This lets the headstock, and all the spacers flex out some.
                  >
                  > General advise is use the least amount of extension on the headstock that the part requires. As you go out further, reduce how aggressive you are cutting. And as I suggested earlier, never plunge straight into a piece if you are not using a drill bit. Always ramp at a shallow 5 deg or less angle.
                  >
                  > Tim Goldstein
                  > A2Z Corp
                  > A2Z CNC division
                  > 3955 S Mariposa St
                  > Englewood CO 80110
                  > 720 833-9300
                  > Toll Free 877 754-7465
                  >
                  > www.A2ZCorp.us/store
                  > USA made accessories for desktop mills & lathes.
                  > Specialized No Mar tools for the jewelry industry.
                  >
                • Ron Ginger
                  ... Some end mills will not cut in the center at all so they will not plunge. There are center cutting mills, but they really dont work as well as a drill.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Feb 5, 2011
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                    > Tim, what do you mean by, "never plunge straight into a piece if you are not using a drill bit. Always ramp at a shallow 5 deg or less angle."
                    > So this means, lets say, CNC cutting a simple 2" x 1" oval slot through .25" thick alum. with a .25" centerline end mill in .0125 passes that the bit ramps down at a 5 deg slope as it continues to move forward on it's track after completing a circuit? Does Mach3 automatically do this?
                    >
                    > Bruce

                    Some end mills will not cut in the center at all so they will not
                    plunge. There are center cutting mills, but they really dont work as
                    well as a drill.

                    Mach3 only executes the gcode it is given, so if you want a ramp
                    function you will have to do it in the gcode. Most CAM software has an
                    option to do it.

                    The Newfangled wizards in Mach do ramp on some objects, like circular
                    pockets.

                    ron ginger
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