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Re: More mill problems..

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  • dnldkempton
    Well, today I recieved the gibs and way oil from A2Z. With the gib installed tightly, the table is still way too loose to do any machining. Lifting up on the
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 1, 2009
      Well, today I recieved the gibs and way oil from A2Z. With the gib installed tightly, the table is still way too loose to do any machining. Lifting up on the motor side, it still has enough movement to disrupt machining when the table moves to the right. Any more guesses? It seemed to me that it did not do this until the material came apart under the saddle, but I may be incorrect.




      --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, Donald Kempton <dnldkempton@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have ordered the gibs from A2Z, and also ordered their recommended Way oil. We will see soon.
      >
      > --- On Tue, 8/25/09, imserv1 <imserv@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: imserv1 <imserv@...>
      > Subject: [SherlineCNC] Re: More mill problems..
      > To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Tuesday, August 25, 2009, 8:54 AM
      >
      >
      > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "dnldkempton" <dnldkempton@> wrote:
      > > I ran it slightly tight, and the Y axis unscrewed itself from the motor coupler after about 5 minutes or so. Everything was lubed properly with the synthetic grease from Sherline too.
      > >
      > > The A2Z saddle has two "wipers" of sorts under the saddle, and they have unglued themselves, coming apart in pieces. I'm not sure if they are for keeping lube on the ways, or providing a slight shim (or both).
      > >
      > > I have ordered some more gibs in the hopes that mine are just worn out. Any hints about this, or has anyone encountered the same thing?
      > >
      >
      > You should check with A2Z about the "wipers" they are NOT, but are a special material to improve the Stick-Slip of the heavier machine components. The proper lube is not what Sherline recommends, but rather what A2Z recommends, since you now have an A2Z machine.
      >
      > We'll expect to hear back from you when you try to install the gibs.  Hint#1: don't cut them off or drill them until you have properly adjusted them, then mark them.  Hint#2: RTFM  Hint#3: you might have to shim the gibs. 
      >
      > For those that might nedd to know, the part numbers for the Sherline gibs are #4098 and #4099.
      >
      > Fred Smith - IMService
      > http://www.imsrv.com
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Michael
      Have you made any contact and told A2Z what happened? I really didn t think the strips on top of the saddle were that fragile. I d seriously consider getting
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 1, 2009
        Have you made any contact and told A2Z what happened? I really didn't think
        the strips on top of the saddle were that fragile.



        I'd seriously consider getting the saddle replaced.



        Michael



        _____

        From: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of dnldkempton
        Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 1:23 PM
        To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SherlineCNC] Re: More mill problems..





        Well, today I recieved the gibs and way oil from A2Z. With the gib installed
        tightly, the table is still way too loose to do any machining. Lifting up on
        the motor side, it still has enough movement to disrupt machining when the
        table moves to the right. Any more guesses? It seemed to me that it did not
        do this until the material came apart under the saddle, but I may be
        incorrect.

        --- In SherlineCNC@ <mailto:SherlineCNC%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
        Donald Kempton <dnldkempton@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have ordered the gibs from A2Z, and also ordered their recommended Way
        oil. We will see soon.
        >
        > --- On Tue, 8/25/09, imserv1 <imserv@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: imserv1 <imserv@...>
        > Subject: [SherlineCNC] Re: More mill problems..
        > To: SherlineCNC@ <mailto:SherlineCNC%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Tuesday, August 25, 2009, 8:54 AM
        >
        >
        > --- In SherlineCNC@ <mailto:SherlineCNC%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com, "dnldkempton" <dnldkempton@> wrote:
        > > I ran it slightly tight, and the Y axis unscrewed itself from the motor
        coupler after about 5 minutes or so. Everything was lubed properly with the
        synthetic grease from Sherline too.
        > >
        > > The A2Z saddle has two "wipers" of sorts under the saddle, and they have
        unglued themselves, coming apart in pieces. I'm not sure if they are for
        keeping lube on the ways, or providing a slight shim (or both).
        > >
        > > I have ordered some more gibs in the hopes that mine are just worn out.
        Any hints about this, or has anyone encountered the same thing?
        > >
        >
        > You should check with A2Z about the "wipers" they are NOT, but are a
        special material to improve the Stick-Slip of the heavier machine
        components. The proper lube is not what Sherline recommends, but rather what
        A2Z recommends, since you now have an A2Z machine.
        >
        > We'll expect to hear back from you when you try to install the gibs.
        Hint#1: don't cut them off or drill them until you have properly adjusted
        them, then mark them. Hint#2: RTFM Hint#3: you might have to shim the
        gibs.
        >
        > For those that might nedd to know, the part numbers for the Sherline gibs
        are #4098 and #4099.
        >
        > Fred Smith - IMService
        > http://www.imsrv <http://www.imsrv.com> com
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Garry Silcock
        All my thoughts however misguided: I see stick slip compensation as a (lack of)maintenance item. To retain a film of lube, mini pockets in the friction
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 1, 2009
          All my thoughts however misguided: I see stick slip compensation as a (lack of)maintenance item. To retain a film of lube, mini pockets in the friction surfaces must be filled with lubricant by some sort of constant pressure device. In all my years machining parts, the day went much better if I kept leaning over to depress the spring loaded lube oil lever to push lube oil through little lines to the x and y axis ways, keeping the ways slick if no auto oiler was installed.  On the big machines, the ways were scraped not just for fit but to leave these tiny lube retaining pockets. I am not sure if using a diamond file and "scraping" in the ways on the Sherline would help since the surface is anodized. If the anodizing weren't cut through, this might help minimize the stick/slip issue. I picked up a bag of antislip grit to add to my oils for unscrapped ways. The "grit" is made of tiny tiny bits of polyethelene So leaving a tiny bit of clearance between
          the gibs and ways will be mandatory. This should also act as a vibration damper if my idea works. I may even convince my boss to let me try it on one of the cnc's at my work place. I wonder if uhmw grit would be better?
           
          That being said, is it possible that adding a counterweight(equal to the added weight of the stepper assembly) to the opposite end of the x axis table would also help? Looking at the z and x axis,no consideration is given to weight distribution on the z and adding to one end of the x has gotten hurt some where. Once on a slow day at work, I set up a suface plate on the x axis bed and mag based a dial indicator to the j-head. as I cranks the x toward my left, the indicator on my right showed significant change as the weight shifted. This was after I thought I had tightened up all the gibs to allow smooth motion without undo stress on the ball screws, my arms,  etc...
           
          I continue to gather data to decide on how to proceed in turning these little machines into automatics via electronics but the choices are so wide spread. I also have noticed that most integrated mini-cnc's on ebay are sold after only a year or so of service. Should I be looking at this as a gateway (hobby) to wanting bigger machines? How do I keep this at a hobby level?
          Thanks, Garry 
           

           

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Michael
          Garry, Certainly the A2Z tables need to be lubed, Number 2 way oil was recommended to me when I bought my first mill from them; only stock item on it is the
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 1, 2009
            Garry,



            Certainly the A2Z tables need to be lubed, Number 2 way oil was recommended
            to me when I bought my first mill from them; only stock item on it is the
            sherline headstock & motor.



            Donald's problem has arisen from the strips on top of the saddle coming
            unsecured and crumbling. Certainly worth a phone call and a replacement.



            I run two of the A2Z mills here in the home shop, and have no sag off the
            motor ends at full X+ travel.



            It started out as a hobby, but with seven pieces of Sherline equipment in
            here, I don't think I can call it a hobby at this point anymore.



            See www.kbuilt.net <http://www.kbuilt.net/> "Workshop" section.



            Michael



            _____

            From: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Garry Silcock
            Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 11:41 PM
            To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SherlineCNC] Re: More mill problems..





            All my thoughts however misguided: I see stick slip compensation as a (lack
            of)maintenance item. To retain a film of lube, mini pockets in the friction
            surfaces must be filled with lubricant by some sort of constant pressure
            device. In all my years machining parts, the day went much better if I kept
            leaning over to depress the spring loaded lube oil lever to push lube oil
            through little lines to the x and y axis ways, keeping the ways slick if no
            auto oiler was installed. On the big machines, the ways were scraped not
            just for fit but to leave these tiny lube retaining pockets. I am not sure
            if using a diamond file and "scraping" in the ways on the Sherline would
            help since the surface is anodized. If the anodizing weren't cut through,
            this might help minimize the stick/slip issue. I picked up a bag of antislip
            grit to add to my oils for unscrapped ways. The "grit" is made of tiny tiny
            bits of polyethelene So leaving a tiny bit of clearance between
            the gibs and ways will be mandatory. This should also act as a vibration
            damper if my idea works. I may even convince my boss to let me try it on one
            of the cnc's at my work place. I wonder if uhmw grit would be better?

            That being said, is it possible that adding a counterweight(equal to the
            added weight of the stepper assembly) to the opposite end of the x axis
            table would also help? Looking at the z and x axis,no consideration is given
            to weight distribution on the z and adding to one end of the x has gotten
            hurt some where. Once on a slow day at work, I set up a suface plate on the
            x axis bed and mag based a dial indicator to the j-head. as I cranks the x
            toward my left, the indicator on my right showed significant change as the
            weight shifted. This was after I thought I had tightened up all the gibs to
            allow smooth motion without undo stress on the ball screws, my arms, etc...

            I continue to gather data to decide on how to proceed in turning these
            little machines into automatics via electronics but the choices are so wide
            spread. I also have noticed that most integrated mini-cnc's on ebay are sold
            after only a year or so of service. Should I be looking at this as a gateway
            (hobby) to wanting bigger machines? How do I keep this at a hobby level?
            Thanks, Garry




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Garry Silcock
            Thanks Michael! I checked out your site, Awesome! I can remove building forge  from my check list to make eye bolts! Your ability to stick to a scale is so
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 1, 2009
              Thanks Michael! I checked out your site, Awesome! I can remove 'building forge' from my check list to make eye bolts! Your ability to stick to a scale is so cool. How will you top that crane!
              I like slot cars, ho in particular. Unfortunately, scale doesn't seem to matter, just the tech block. So, if I make a 'scale' pinto body, it would be too small for the existing chassis accepted in vintage ho circles. And since it would present no advantage in competition, would be only a collector piece. Anybody into pintos?
              It is good to know that sag isn't a concern. Have you run into lost step issues? My guess is not if cutting wood. and not if going slow in brass. I don't see having multiple machines as leaping past the hobby level. Convenience is so important when it comes to machining 
              different materials. I won't cut brass on my table saw for many reasons...:)
              Thanks again, Garry













              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael
              Garry, Thanks for the compliments! The wood models I built were all done years ago with conventional woodworking tools. I only stepped up to machining after I
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 2, 2009
                Garry,



                Thanks for the compliments!



                The wood models I built were all done years ago with conventional
                woodworking tools. I only stepped up to machining after I made a sale of
                two of my truck cranes to one client and purchased my first sherline mill
                and lathe.



                I haven't run into the lost step issues (yet). One mill is running a
                Xylotex box and the other is on Gecko drivers. Both are good controllers
                and I get good feed and speeds.



                I need to get the website updated with current photos. Maybe one of these
                days when I have time.



                Michael



                _____

                From: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Garry Silcock
                Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 2:20 AM
                To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [SherlineCNC] Re: More mill problems..





                Thanks Michael! I checked out your site, Awesome! I can remove 'building
                forge' from my check list to make eye bolts! Your ability to stick to a
                scale is so cool. How will you top that crane!
                I like slot cars, ho in particular. Unfortunately, scale doesn't seem to
                matter, just the tech block. So, if I make a 'scale' pinto body, it would be
                too small for the existing chassis accepted in vintage ho circles. And since
                it would present no advantage in competition, would be only a collector
                piece. Anybody into pintos?
                It is good to know that sag isn't a concern. Have you run into lost step
                issues? My guess is not if cutting wood. and not if going slow in brass. I
                don't see having multiple machines as leaping past the hobby level.
                Convenience is so important when it comes to machining
                different materials. I won't cut brass on my table saw for many reasons...:)
                Thanks again, Garry

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • imserv1
                ... Then they are not installed correctly. About the strips and stick-slip, research turcite . I don t think that is what is on A2Z ( or know for that
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 2, 2009
                  --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "dnldkempton" <dnldkempton@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Well, today I recieved the gibs and way oil from A2Z. With the gib installed tightly, the table is still way too loose to do any machining. Lifting up on the motor side, it still has enough movement to disrupt machining when the table moves to the right.

                  Then they are not installed correctly.

                  About the strips and stick-slip, research "turcite". I don't think that is what is on A2Z ( or know for that matter), but the design intent is the same.

                  Fred Smith - IMService
                  http://www.imsrv.com
                • Donald Kempton
                  I spoke with A2Z, and the strips are Turcite. I suspect my Japanese way oil has eaten away at them, and also the epoxy that holds them in place.   Also, they
                  Message 8 of 14 , Sep 2, 2009
                    I spoke with A2Z, and the strips are Turcite. I suspect my Japanese way oil has eaten away at them, and also the epoxy that holds them in place.
                     
                    Also, they provide the proper spacing for the saddle to fit snugly. Now I have the recommended oil from A2Z, so there shouldn't be any more problems.. (until the next problem that is).

                    --- On Wed, 9/2/09, imserv1 <imserv@...> wrote:


                    From: imserv1 <imserv@...>
                    Subject: [SherlineCNC] Re: More mill problems..
                    To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 7:33 AM


                    --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "dnldkempton" <dnldkempton@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Well, today I recieved the gibs and way oil from A2Z. With the gib installed tightly, the table is still way too loose to do any machining. Lifting up on the motor side, it still has enough movement to disrupt machining when the table moves to the right.

                    Then they are not installed correctly.

                    About the strips and stick-slip, research "turcite".  I don't think that is what is on A2Z ( or know for that matter), but the design intent is the same.

                    Fred Smith - IMService
                    http://www.imsrv.com



                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links








                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • cnc4bill
                    ... Don I had the same problem and Tom at A2Z suggested putting a piece of shim stock behind the gib to make it fit tighter. I cut a piece of 4mil stainless
                    Message 9 of 14 , Sep 7, 2009
                      --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, Donald Kempton <dnldkempton@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I spoke with A2Z, and the strips are Turcite. I suspect my Japanese way oil has eaten away at them, and also the epoxy that holds them in place.
                      >  
                      > Also, they provide the proper spacing for the saddle to fit snugly. Now I have the recommended oil from A2Z, so there shouldn't be any more problems.. (until the next problem that is).
                      >
                      > --- On Wed, 9/2/09, imserv1 <imserv@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: imserv1 <imserv@...>
                      > Subject: [SherlineCNC] Re: More mill problems..
                      > To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 7:33 AM
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "dnldkempton" <dnldkempton@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Well, today I recieved the gibs and way oil from A2Z. With the gib installed tightly, the table is still way too loose to do any machining. Lifting up on the motor side, it still has enough movement to disrupt machining when the table moves to the right.


                      Don
                      I had the same problem and Tom at A2Z suggested putting a piece of shim stock behind the gib to make it fit tighter. I cut a piece of 4mil stainless steel shim stock and put it in behind the gib and shoved the gib in until the table was tight. Worked great!
                      Bill


                      >
                      > Then they are not installed correctly.
                      >
                      > About the strips and stick-slip, research "turcite".  I don't think that is what is on A2Z ( or know for that matter), but the design intent is the same.
                      >
                      > Fred Smith - IMService
                      > http://www.imsrv.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
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