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Newby question

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  • dennisfarr
    I will be getting a Sherline lathe and mill. I am a total beginner. Eventually, I would like to go with CNC, but I want to do every thing manually until I get
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
      I will be getting a Sherline lathe and mill. I am a total beginner.
      Eventually, I would like to go with CNC, but I want to do every thing manually until I get some experience.

      So, the question is, can CNC equipment be operated manually, and/or can manual equipment be upgraded to CNC.

      TIA
    • Dave Hylands
      Hi Dennis, ... That s exactly the route I went. I started off with a CNC ready mill and lathe. I bought the steppers when I bought the mill and lathe, just so
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
        Hi Dennis,

        On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 4:10 AM, dennisfarr<farrdennis@...> wrote:
        > I will be getting a Sherline lathe and mill.  I am a total beginner.
        > Eventually, I would like to go with CNC, but I want to do every thing manually until I get some experience.
        >
        > So, the question is, can CNC equipment be operated manually, and/or can manual equipment be upgraded to CNC.

        That's exactly the route I went. I started off with a CNC ready mill
        and lathe. I bought the steppers when I bought the mill and lathe,
        just so that I had someplace to mount the handwheels. It's possible to
        make little adapters so you can use it without the steppers.
        <http://www.davehylands.com/Machinist/Sherline/>

        I then got the electronics hooked up and can drive upto 4 axes, so I
        can use the mill or the lathe with CNC, but not both at the same time.

        I found that I use the mill in CNC mode, pretty much all of the time.
        Even for simple stuff, I find it easier to enter the commands in MDI
        mode in Mach3 than to crank the wheels.

        For the lathe, I find that I tend to use it in manual mode most of the
        time, and only use CNC when I'm doing multiples of the same part, or
        have a non-trivial shape.

        --
        Dave Hylands
        Shuswap, BC, Canada
        http://www.DaveHylands.com/
      • Steve
        Yes you can upgrade a manual machine to cnc. As a cnc , in most control programs you can in some way you can control the machine through the computer in a jog
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
          Yes you can upgrade a manual machine to cnc. As a cnc , in most control
          programs you can in some way you can control the machine through the
          computer in a jog mode (manual with power feed. You can also put handles on
          the servo or stepper motors and turn those when the power to the motors is
          off. The steppers tend to want to drop into their step positions, so it's
          not supper smooth, but not to bad and if you have it geared down with a belt
          it's less noticeable

          From: "dennisfarr" <farrdennis@...>
          > So, the question is, can CNC equipment be operated manually, and/or can
          manual equipment be upgraded to CNC.
        • Rich Dean
          dennis, with no prior experience using the equipment manually is an excellent teaching method and there is a lot to learn, especially the capabilities of the
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
            dennis,
            with no prior experience using the equipment manually is an excellent teaching
            method and there is a lot to learn, especially the capabilities of the machines.
            CNC allows more complex features to be machined easily and of course multiple
            parts can be repeated easily.
            The idea of using the machines for both drive types while possible is a drag.
            Manually forcing the stepper motors is not a good idea. All the drives should be
            disconnected to avoid back feeding the electronics. Servos have speed reduction
            drives that cause drag as well. Some people do it, but I don't recommend it.
            It all depends on your needs, capability and level of understanding.
            The CNC world has a steep learning curve. Take it slow stay focused on the
            overall picture as you fill in the building blocks of a system.
            I modified my machines and learned a lot in doing so, but it's quite an adventure.
            Stick with it and you will get there.
            -=RichD=-

            dennisfarr wrote:
            > I will be getting a Sherline lathe and mill. I am a total beginner.
            > Eventually, I would like to go with CNC, but I want to do every thing manually until I get some experience.
            >
            > So, the question is, can CNC equipment be operated manually, and/or can manual equipment be upgraded to CNC.
            >
            > TIA
          • scmodelworks
            I started with a manual 2000 mill and the CNC rotary table. After a few years of working on many rudimentary projects I decided that it was time for an
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
              I started with a manual 2000 mill and the CNC rotary table. After a few
              years of working on many rudimentary projects I decided that it was time
              for an upgrade. My X and Y axis components were upgraded to A2Z CNC
              extended X and Y axis with Kerk motion screws. Talk about growing your
              work envelope! I also added IM Service's 4 axis servo control kit and
              DeskCNC controller software. I ordered the servo kit with extended
              shafts so that I could retain my XYZ wheels for quick manual work.

              Until recently I found myself using the DeskCNC machine interface page
              with the mouse more often than manual turning by simply scrolling the
              mouse to the particular axis that I wanted to cut and pushing that
              button till I get close to where I wanted to be. I still do that but as
              my CAD skills continue to improve I now find myself drawing a quick
              model in Rhino 4 and then doing some quick CAM work. I added RhinoCam
              Pro earlier in the year which allows me to do my CAM work inside of
              Rhino and see what it is that I'm making with simulators before I chuck
              up any material in the mill.

              I cannot overemphasize the need to learn how to work with your mill in
              manual mode. It will give you a great foundation before making the jump
              to CNC.

              Terry Wellman
            • ncs2005
              ... should be ... reduction ... There s no need to manually force stepper motors. When unpowered, they don t resist. :-) Also, regarding the drives should
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
                >The idea of using the machines for both drive types while possible is a drag.
                >Manually forcing the stepper motors is not a good idea. All the drives
                should be
                >disconnected to avoid back feeding the electronics. Servos have speed
                reduction
                >drives that cause drag as well. Some people do it, but I don't recommend it.
                >It all depends on your needs, capability and level of understanding.

                There's no need to 'manually force' stepper motors. When unpowered, they
                don't resist. :-)

                Also, regarding "the drives should be disconnected to avoid back feeding
                the electronics",
                I don't know how this nonsense gets started but let's stop it.

                To sum it up:

                1) a sherline cnc mill can be used just fine manually.
                2) you don't have to disconnect the drivers.


                - Dom
              • Rich Dean
                Sorry, but I totally disagree. Try it sometime. Gets a little tiresome turning shafts against the stepper magnets and the load absorbed by the drivers and
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
                  Sorry, but I totally disagree. Try it sometime. Gets a little tiresome turning
                  shafts
                  against the stepper magnets and the load absorbed by the drivers and power supply.
                  Not only that but the stepper pole cogging will fight you to attain a fixed position
                  if it happens to be between poles.
                  Why have CNC if you aren't going to use it to advantage?
                  RichD

                  ncs2005 wrote:
                  >> The idea of using the machines for both drive types while possible is a drag.
                  >> Manually forcing the stepper motors is not a good idea. All the drives
                  > should be
                  >> disconnected to avoid back feeding the electronics. Servos have speed
                  > reduction
                  >> drives that cause drag as well. Some people do it, but I don't recommend it.
                  >> It all depends on your needs, capability and level of understanding.
                  >
                  > There's no need to 'manually force' stepper motors. When unpowered, they
                  > don't resist. :-)
                  >
                  > Also, regarding "the drives should be disconnected to avoid back feeding
                  > the electronics",
                  > I don't know how this nonsense gets started but let's stop it.
                  >
                  > To sum it up:
                  >
                  > 1) a sherline cnc mill can be used just fine manually.
                  > 2) you don't have to disconnect the drivers.
                  >
                  >
                  > - Dom
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • scmodelworks
                  Umm, try turning off the power supply to the steppers and see if perhaps you can turn them more freely for manual ops. ;-) Terry
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
                    Umm, try turning off the power supply to the steppers and see if perhaps
                    you can turn them more freely for manual ops. ;-)

                    Terry

                    Rich Dean wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Sorry, but I totally disagree. Try it sometime. Gets a little tiresome
                    > turning
                    > shafts
                    > against the stepper magnets and the load absorbed by the drivers and
                    > power supply.
                    > Not only that but the stepper pole cogging will fight you to attain a
                    > fixed position
                    > if it happens to be between poles.
                    > Why have CNC if you aren't going to use it to advantage?
                    > RichD
                    >
                    > ncs2005 wrote:
                    > >> The idea of using the machines for both drive types while possible
                    > is a drag.
                    > >> Manually forcing the stepper motors is not a good idea. All the drives
                    > > should be
                    > >> disconnected to avoid back feeding the electronics. Servos have speed
                    > > reduction
                    > >> drives that cause drag as well. Some people do it, but I don't
                    > recommend it.
                    > >> It all depends on your needs, capability and level of understanding.
                    > >
                    > > There's no need to 'manually force' stepper motors. When unpowered, they
                    > > don't resist. :-)
                    > >
                    > > Also, regarding "the drives should be disconnected to avoid back feeding
                    > > the electronics",
                    > > I don't know how this nonsense gets started but let's stop it.
                    > >
                    > > To sum it up:
                    > >
                    > > 1) a sherline cnc mill can be used just fine manually.
                    > > 2) you don't have to disconnect the drivers.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > - Dom
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                  • Rich Dean
                    Terry, No need to tell me what happens. I don t like breaking things. Locked rotors don t want to move. You want cogging. You got it! Take off the training
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
                      Terry,
                      No need to tell me what happens. I don't like breaking things.
                      Locked rotors don't want to move. You want cogging. You got it!
                      Take off the training handwheels and and learn CNC.
                      Manually controlling from the program(s) can be useful at times.
                      Writing simple g-code to do easy moves is also useful.
                      Let the motors do the work. Put the power in the brains.
                      RichD Getting back to work now.

                      scmodelworks wrote:
                      > Umm, try turning off the power supply to the steppers and see if perhaps
                      > you can turn them more freely for manual ops. ;-)
                      >
                      > Terry
                      >
                      > Rich Dean wrote:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Sorry, but I totally disagree. Try it sometime. Gets a little tiresome
                      >> turning
                      >> shafts
                      >> against the stepper magnets and the load absorbed by the drivers and
                      >> power supply.
                      >> Not only that but the stepper pole cogging will fight you to attain a
                      >> fixed position
                      >> if it happens to be between poles.
                      >> Why have CNC if you aren't going to use it to advantage?
                      >> RichD
                    • cmsteamer
                      Delete that last. I got carried away. We were talking about the controls de-energized. Unplugging the motor cables helps a little. Still tho, use the machine
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
                        Delete that last. I got carried away. We were talking about the
                        controls de-energized. Unplugging the motor cables helps a little.
                        Still tho, use the machine under power to learn and find what the
                        system can do for you. It's amazing the things that can be done
                        when the thought is put into it.
                        Don't think manual. Think CNC. It works.
                        RichD

                        --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, Rich Dean <toolman8@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Terry,
                        > No need to tell me what happens. I don't like breaking things.
                        > Locked rotors don't want to move. You want cogging. You got it!
                        > Take off the training handwheels and and learn CNC.
                        > Manually controlling from the program(s) can be useful at times.
                        > Writing simple g-code to do easy moves is also useful.
                        > Let the motors do the work. Put the power in the brains.
                        > RichD Getting back to work now.
                        >
                        > scmodelworks wrote:
                        > > Umm, try turning off the power supply to the steppers and see if perhaps
                        > > you can turn them more freely for manual ops. ;-)
                        > >
                        > > Terry
                        > >
                        > > Rich Dean wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> Sorry, but I totally disagree. Try it sometime. Gets a little tiresome
                        > >> turning
                        > >> shafts
                        > >> against the stepper magnets and the load absorbed by the drivers and
                        > >> power supply.
                        > >> Not only that but the stepper pole cogging will fight you to attain a
                        > >> fixed position
                        > >> if it happens to be between poles.
                        > >> Why have CNC if you aren't going to use it to advantage?
                        > >> RichD
                        >
                      • dennisfarr
                        So, is there a beginners forum where I can get a straight answer to my question? :-)
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
                          So, is there a beginners forum where I can get a straight answer to my question? :-)



                          --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, Rich Dean <toolman8@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Terry,
                          > No need to tell me what happens. I don't like breaking things.
                          > Locked rotors don't want to move. You want cogging. You got it!
                          > Take off the training handwheels and and learn CNC.
                          > Manually controlling from the program(s) can be useful at times.
                          > Writing simple g-code to do easy moves is also useful.
                          > Let the motors do the work. Put the power in the brains.
                          > RichD Getting back to work now.
                          >
                          > scmodelworks wrote:
                          > > Umm, try turning off the power supply to the steppers and see if perhaps
                          > > you can turn them more freely for manual ops. ;-)
                          > >
                          > > Terry
                          > >
                          > > Rich Dean wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> Sorry, but I totally disagree. Try it sometime. Gets a little tiresome
                          > >> turning
                          > >> shafts
                          > >> against the stepper magnets and the load absorbed by the drivers and
                          > >> power supply.
                          > >> Not only that but the stepper pole cogging will fight you to attain a
                          > >> fixed position
                          > >> if it happens to be between poles.
                          > >> Why have CNC if you aren't going to use it to advantage?
                          > >> RichD
                          >
                        • Doug Rundell
                          Dennis, For my 2 cents worth, go for cnc ready machines if you can afford to. If you are anything like me, you will soon tire of milling and turning manually
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
                            Dennis,

                            For my 2 cents worth, go for cnc ready machines if you can afford to. If you are anything like me, you will soon tire of milling and turning manually and start learning to write G-code.

                            Doug Rundell
                            Billy Bob's Beer, Bait & Tackle
                            1339 Creekside Ln.
                            Newberg, Oregon 97132
                            Ph 503-554-0824
                            drundell1@...<mailto:drundell1@...>
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: dennisfarr<mailto:farrdennis@...>
                            To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 11:14 AM
                            Subject: [SherlineCNC] Re: Newby question


                            So, is there a beginners forum where I can get a straight answer to my question? :-)

                            --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com>, Rich Dean <toolman8@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Terry,
                            > No need to tell me what happens. I don't like breaking things.
                            > Locked rotors don't want to move. You want cogging. You got it!
                            > Take off the training handwheels and and learn CNC.
                            > Manually controlling from the program(s) can be useful at times.
                            > Writing simple g-code to do easy moves is also useful.
                            > Let the motors do the work. Put the power in the brains.
                            > RichD Getting back to work now.
                            >
                            > scmodelworks wrote:
                            > > Umm, try turning off the power supply to the steppers and see if perhaps
                            > > you can turn them more freely for manual ops. ;-)
                            > >
                            > > Terry
                            > >
                            > > Rich Dean wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> Sorry, but I totally disagree. Try it sometime. Gets a little tiresome
                            > >> turning
                            > >> shafts
                            > >> against the stepper magnets and the load absorbed by the drivers and
                            > >> power supply.
                            > >> Not only that but the stepper pole cogging will fight you to attain a
                            > >> fixed position
                            > >> if it happens to be between poles.
                            > >> Why have CNC if you aren't going to use it to advantage?
                            > >> RichD
                            >





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Hamilton Elliott
                            I ve lost the original question but !! As quite new and having had the same sort of question myself, I would get a CNC ready mill and get the attachments to
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
                              I've lost the original question but !!

                              As quite new and having had the same sort of question myself, I would get a
                              CNC ready mill and get the attachments to put handwheels on the ends of the
                              axes. I got a CNC ready mill and immediately put on the steppers and
                              handwheels on them. I found that I couldn't get a feel for manually milling
                              because of the notchiness of the steppers (without power, and with power its
                              impossible to turn the wheels by hand).

                              This is a beginners forum and a forum for experts, because without experts
                              you don't get your questions answered.

                              I would get a CNC ready mill rather than getting a complete setup from
                              Sherline because I think that it is better value and not too difficult. You
                              have to have reasonable manual skills to be here in the first place!

                              So whatever beginners questions you have, ASK, as we all had to start
                              somewhere.

                              Hamilton

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of dennisfarr
                              Sent: 24 August 2009 19:14
                              To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [SherlineCNC] Re: Newby question

                              So, is there a beginners forum where I can get a straight answer to my
                              question? :-)



                              --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, Rich Dean <toolman8@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Terry,
                              > No need to tell me what happens. I don't like breaking things.
                              > Locked rotors don't want to move. You want cogging. You got it!
                              > Take off the training handwheels and and learn CNC.
                              > Manually controlling from the program(s) can be useful at times.
                              > Writing simple g-code to do easy moves is also useful.
                              > Let the motors do the work. Put the power in the brains.
                              > RichD Getting back to work now.
                              >
                              > scmodelworks wrote:
                              > > Umm, try turning off the power supply to the steppers and see if
                              > > perhaps you can turn them more freely for manual ops. ;-)
                              > >
                              > > Terry
                              > >
                              > > Rich Dean wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> Sorry, but I totally disagree. Try it sometime. Gets a little
                              > >> tiresome turning shafts against the stepper magnets and the load
                              > >> absorbed by the drivers and power supply.
                              > >> Not only that but the stepper pole cogging will fight you to attain
                              > >> a fixed position if it happens to be between poles.
                              > >> Why have CNC if you aren't going to use it to advantage?
                              > >> RichD
                              >




                              ------------------------------------

                              Yahoo! Groups Links



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                            • Michael
                              Dennis, You ve got lots of answers about running CNC manually, so I ll skip answering that one. Manual lathes and mills can be upgraded to CNC as your
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
                                Dennis,



                                You've got lots of answers about running CNC manually, so I'll skip
                                answering that one.



                                Manual lathes and mills can be upgraded to CNC as your knowledge improves.
                                It's how I started and I now own 2 CNC mills, 1 CNC lathe, 2 manual mills
                                and 2 manual lathes. My cnc mills first started out as manual mills with
                                DRO boxes.



                                Learn as you go and don't be afraid to ask questions. You will get a broad
                                range of answers.



                                Michael



                                _____

                                From: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf Of dennisfarr
                                Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 7:11 AM
                                To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [SherlineCNC] Newby question





                                I will be getting a Sherline lathe and mill. I am a total beginner.
                                Eventually, I would like to go with CNC, but I want to do every thing
                                manually until I get some experience.

                                So, the question is, can CNC equipment be operated manually, and/or can
                                manual equipment be upgraded to CNC.

                                TIA





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Alan Marconett
                                I run my mill in CNC all the time. I initially bought stepper motors with tail shafts specifically so that I could attach hand wheels, but after you run the
                                Message 15 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
                                  I run my mill in CNC all the time. I initially bought stepper motors
                                  with tail shafts specifically so that I could attach hand wheels, but
                                  after you run the mill with either jog or MDI statements for a while,
                                  there's really no need for handwheels. I can jog as slow and in as
                                  small steps as I need for "touching off", or command a rapid to the
                                  other side of the axis. I can also turn on a "recording" mode and save
                                  jogs up to make a program, although I rarely use it. I draw and
                                  generate Gcode with Vector CAD/CAM, and run with that for anything other
                                  then a few holes or a face off. For these I can do a few repeated
                                  commands, altering a single parameter at a time, and get what I want
                                  quickly.

                                  For the lathe, I mostly use jog and MDI, and as been previously noted, I
                                  too will generate Gcode for the late for the "special" parts.

                                  I DO suggest getting familiar with a lathe or mill manually first,
                                  unless you are already familiar with fairly small tools.

                                  Alan KM6VV

                                  cmsteamer wrote:
                                  > Delete that last. I got carried away. We were talking about the
                                  > controls de-energized. Unplugging the motor cables helps a little.
                                  > Still tho, use the machine under power to learn and find what the
                                  > system can do for you. It's amazing the things that can be done
                                  > when the thought is put into it.
                                  > Don't think manual. Think CNC. It works.
                                  > RichD
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Alan Marconett
                                  Hi Dennis, You can buy a manual lathe and mill, and upgrade later to CNC. Running manually for a while is a good idea, it lets you get the feel of the cuts,
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
                                    Hi Dennis,

                                    You can buy a manual lathe and mill, and upgrade later to CNC. Running
                                    manually for a while is a good idea, it lets you get the feel of the
                                    cuts, and what your Sherline can and can't do.

                                    Later you can add the CNC upgrade kit(s), which are the stepper motor
                                    mounts and a change of the Z axis leadscrew, and buy the stepper motors
                                    and drives.

                                    You can put the handwheels on the stepper motor shafts of a CNC'd
                                    machine, and do work. A little more effort, and a slight "cogging" will
                                    be noted. Not energized, of course! But usable.

                                    I prefer to drive my axis with CNC, the jog and MDI controls are all I
                                    need.

                                    Alan KM6VV

                                    dennisfarr wrote:
                                    > I will be getting a Sherline lathe and mill. I am a total beginner.
                                    > Eventually, I would like to go with CNC, but I want to do every thing manually until I get some experience.
                                    >
                                    > So, the question is, can CNC equipment be operated manually, and/or can manual equipment be upgraded to CNC.
                                    >
                                    > TIA
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • scmodelworks
                                    Rich, I m in agreement with you. However, there are those times where a simple job doesn t require programming. That s what I was referencing. Just turn off
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
                                      Rich,

                                      I'm in agreement with you. However, there are those times where a simple
                                      job doesn't require programming. That's what I was referencing. Just
                                      turn off the power to de-energize the motors and you're good to go so
                                      long as you retain your control wheels as part of the conversion design.

                                      Terry

                                      cmsteamer wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Delete that last. I got carried away. We were talking about the
                                      > controls de-energized. Unplugging the motor cables helps a little.
                                      > Still tho, use the machine under power to learn and find what the
                                      > system can do for you. It's amazing the things that can be done
                                      > when the thought is put into it.
                                      > Don't think manual. Think CNC. It works.
                                      > RichD
                                      >
                                      > --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
                                      > <mailto:SherlineCNC%40yahoogroups.com>, Rich Dean <toolman8@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Terry,
                                      > > No need to tell me what happens. I don't like breaking things.
                                      > > Locked rotors don't want to move. You want cogging. You got it!
                                      > > Take off the training handwheels and and learn CNC.
                                      > > Manually controlling from the program(s) can be useful at times.
                                      > > Writing simple g-code to do easy moves is also useful.
                                      > > Let the motors do the work. Put the power in the brains.
                                      > > RichD Getting back to work now.
                                      > >
                                      > > scmodelworks wrote:
                                      > > > Umm, try turning off the power supply to the steppers and see if
                                      > perhaps
                                      > > > you can turn them more freely for manual ops. ;-)
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Terry
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Rich Dean wrote:
                                      > > >>
                                      > > >>
                                      > > >> Sorry, but I totally disagree. Try it sometime. Gets a little
                                      > tiresome
                                      > > >> turning
                                      > > >> shafts
                                      > > >> against the stepper magnets and the load absorbed by the drivers and
                                      > > >> power supply.
                                      > > >> Not only that but the stepper pole cogging will fight you to
                                      > attain a
                                      > > >> fixed position
                                      > > >> if it happens to be between poles.
                                      > > >> Why have CNC if you aren't going to use it to advantage?
                                      > > >> RichD
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Hamilton Elliott
                                      Just found the original question. Yes, CNC equipment can be operated manually BUT I found that it doesn t work for me. Maybe my steppers are too big 378ozin as
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Aug 24, 2009
                                        Just found the original question.

                                        Yes, CNC equipment can be operated manually BUT I found that it doesn't work
                                        for me. Maybe my steppers are too big 378ozin as far as I can remember.

                                        Buy a CNC ready mill, but you have to have a way of connecting the
                                        handwheels into the Stepper mount.

                                        In my opinion don't get a CNC lathe unless you know you NEED it.

                                        My 2c worth.
                                        Hamilton

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        Behalf Of Hamilton Elliott
                                        Sent: 24 August 2009 19:28
                                        To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [SherlineCNC] Re: Newby question

                                        I've lost the original question but !!

                                        As quite new and having had the same sort of question myself, I would get a
                                        CNC ready mill and get the attachments to put handwheels on the ends of the
                                        axes. I got a CNC ready mill and immediately put on the steppers and
                                        handwheels on them. I found that I couldn't get a feel for manually milling
                                        because of the notchiness of the steppers (without power, and with power its
                                        impossible to turn the wheels by hand).

                                        This is a beginners forum and a forum for experts, because without experts
                                        you don't get your questions answered.

                                        I would get a CNC ready mill rather than getting a complete setup from
                                        Sherline because I think that it is better value and not too difficult. You
                                        have to have reasonable manual skills to be here in the first place!

                                        So whatever beginners questions you have, ASK, as we all had to start
                                        somewhere.

                                        Hamilton

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        Behalf Of dennisfarr
                                        Sent: 24 August 2009 19:14
                                        To: SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [SherlineCNC] Re: Newby question

                                        So, is there a beginners forum where I can get a straight answer to my
                                        question? :-)



                                        --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, Rich Dean <toolman8@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Terry,
                                        > No need to tell me what happens. I don't like breaking things.
                                        > Locked rotors don't want to move. You want cogging. You got it!
                                        > Take off the training handwheels and and learn CNC.
                                        > Manually controlling from the program(s) can be useful at times.
                                        > Writing simple g-code to do easy moves is also useful.
                                        > Let the motors do the work. Put the power in the brains.
                                        > RichD Getting back to work now.
                                        >
                                        > scmodelworks wrote:
                                        > > Umm, try turning off the power supply to the steppers and see if
                                        > > perhaps you can turn them more freely for manual ops. ;-)
                                        > >
                                        > > Terry
                                        > >
                                        > > Rich Dean wrote:
                                        > >>
                                        > >>
                                        > >> Sorry, but I totally disagree. Try it sometime. Gets a little
                                        > >> tiresome turning shafts against the stepper magnets and the load
                                        > >> absorbed by the drivers and power supply.
                                        > >> Not only that but the stepper pole cogging will fight you to attain
                                        > >> a fixed position if it happens to be between poles.
                                        > >> Why have CNC if you aren't going to use it to advantage?
                                        > >> RichD
                                        >




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                                      • imserv1
                                        ... Stepper motors cog , that is, you can feel a small detent each time you rotate the shaft past one of the permanent magnet poles. On a Sherline, you will
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Aug 25, 2009
                                          --- In SherlineCNC@yahoogroups.com, "dennisfarr" <farrdennis@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I will be getting a Sherline lathe and mill. I am a total beginner.
                                          > Eventually, I would like to go with CNC, but I want to do every thing manually until I get some experience.
                                          >
                                          > So, the question is, can CNC equipment be operated manually, and/or can manual equipment be upgraded to CNC.

                                          Stepper motors "cog", that is, you can feel a small detent each time you rotate the shaft past one of the permanent magnet poles. On a Sherline, you will probably not be able to position the hand wheel closer than these cogs, which is fairly fine but no better than about .001 inch, and not as fine as you can do without the stepper motor. Servo motors do not cog, so you can position without interference from the motor. In both cases the power to the drives has to be turned off to use the machine manually.

                                          CNC controllers have manual jog buttons that permit you to move the machine slides around under computer control, very much like a power feed. This can be very useful, even if you don't use any other parts of the CNC capability.

                                          Sherline manual machines can be upgraded to be CNC ready. On a mill this is a $250 kit and on a lathe it is $210. Sherline gives a slight discount off these prices, and does the installation for you if you purchase a CNC ready machine. The CNC ready machines include handles, but no place to mount them. You can fabricate a plate on a drill press to mount the handles onto a CNC ready machine without motors.

                                          Fred smith - IMService
                                          http://www.imsrv.com
                                        • Tom Hubin
                                          Hello Dennis, ... A wise decision. I bought my CNC upgrade kit at the ssame time that i bought my Sherline 5410 mill. I used the mill manually for a few months
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Aug 25, 2009
                                            Hello Dennis,

                                            > I will be getting a Sherline lathe and mill. I am a total beginner.
                                            > Eventually, I would like to go with CNC, but I want to do every thing
                                            > manually until I get some experience.

                                            A wise decision. I bought my CNC upgrade kit at the ssame time that i
                                            bought my Sherline 5410 mill. I used the mill manually for a few months
                                            then added the CNC upgrade.

                                            I selected the dual axis motors (shaft out both ends) so that I
                                            could put the manual control back on. That allows me to run it has a CNC
                                            mill or a manual mill.

                                            I turn off power to the drivers when I want a manual mill. The
                                            resistance of the steppers is hardly noticeable. The slight cogging at
                                            1/50 revolution is actually convenient since it occurs at 0.001 inch
                                            intervals on an inch machine and 0.020mm on a metric machine. This
                                            allows me to count off steps without looking at the dial.

                                            I think the aversion to manually rotating the steppers applies to
                                            powered up drivers. Then you are fighting the electronics. It is
                                            possible to zap a driver output this way. I am pretty sure this was the
                                            cause of a zapped driver in my first month of CNC operation.

                                            Powered off drivers have never been a problem. If you are nervous then
                                            unplug the steppers when you want to use in manual mode.

                                            I mix the modes when I flycut a rough surface. I manually lower the Z
                                            axis 0.005 inch by counting 5 cogs then I use MDI to make the x axis
                                            travel several inches to flycut the surface. Then repeat until I am
                                            satisfied with the resulting surface quality.

                                            Tom Hubin
                                            thubin@...

                                            >
                                            > So, the question is, can CNC equipment be operated manually, and/or can
                                            > manual equipment be upgraded to CNC.
                                            >
                                            > TIA
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