FW: Person to Person
E-mail from Mark Clifford (LPSC Chairman) telling me that my "Hispanic
nature appears to start by creating conflict."
The purpose of posting this correspondence is as supporting evidence on a
post by me in response to Larry Lawver's posting entitled "Regarding
Franklin Perez" as:
1) Message #595 at the firstname.lastname@example.org Yahoo Group on July 7, 2004
2) Message #2965 at the email@example.com Yahoo Group on July 1, 2004
Libertarian Party of Seminole County Florida (LPSC)
(Disclaimer: Not official LPSC or LP correspondence.)
>From: "W Mark Clifford" <WClifford@...>
>To: "Franklin Perez" <perezfranklin@...>
>Subject: Person to Person
>Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:53:49 -0400
>You are a virgin to leadership so I appreciate you trying and I appreciate
>your work at it.
>Your Hispanic nature appears to start by creating conflict. Being machismo
>does not serve you and it slows your progress. (It works when it serves to
>scare away your opponent but we are not your opponents.)
>At the moment you do not seem to understand group dynamics. (I thought
>about asking the other members to consider removing you for cause as I see
>you not qualified to hold the office held). You are worried about Robert's
>Rules paragraph [zz] but you not have the 'common courtesy' part at all.
>You HAVE a right to speak but you have one mouth and you have two ears --
>develop wisdom to listen wisely. Individual responsibility means acting
>responsibly. (What is going to happen when the LP offers Franklin Perez as
>an example to lead? You need to be ready to do it because those who wear
>the label with be prejudged by your performance.) I believe you have the
>individual part but individual responsibility is not related.
>Before I post our reply, I need to get your input as a member of the team.
>(That means that the post stands by itself and it does not get responded to
>by someone who helped draft it. Your option to comment is now, not later.)
>Your signature block says:
>Libertarian Party of Seminole County Florida
>and you said "I do not understand why you even need approval from the
>Executive Committee". That is the difference between speaking for you and
>speaking for the organization. And yet you post apparently using the group
>to add credibility to your post rather than to help the reader to
>your message. You seem to understand the title and seem to like wearing
>It must be more than that or this group will fail to be effective. You
>appear driven by all about self and no humility. Each post indicates to me
>you do not understand teams. Every effective leader understands humility.
>The Executive Committee speaks for the group and the chair speaks when the
>executive committee cannot be reached. The vice chair speaks when the
>cannot be reached - not hard to reach but cannot be reached. It also means
>that you remove the title from your signature until you are BOTH speaking
>for the party AND you are speaking in the capacity you show. It is for the
>reader - not the poster. (period)
>You also speak ill of you teammates before you have the facts to judge.
>This is why your original post offended me. You have an obligation to
>in a neutral capacity so that you can be given the gavel to resolve a
>dispute that originates outside of the executive committee. When anyone
>objects to the resolution of a dispute, you will be given the opportunity
>resolve it. Point out oversights in private and save the cheap shots for
>your enemy, not your friends.
>Bonus TIP: Drop the need to find fault; after that you can focus on
>Bonus TIP2: Respect the time of your chair; it is not an endless
>Franklin - my recommendation to you is to develop the ability to listen
>resign the post as a leader of a group until you develop the skills and
>wisdom to lead. I am speaking only to you because I do not need to
>humiliate you, I need you to get through to you and provide you some honest
>If you do not want to develop leadership skills that is not a crime but you
>should just stop pretending.
>Others have the same view of you but they think you are so hopeless that
>they don't provide useful feedback that you can actualize since they do not
>believe you have the ability to learn. If you have no desire to learn, that
>is an option but if you need a mentor, I can help.
>Thank you for your work and considering things outside of the box.
>This email took more than 6 hours to draft edit and reconsider but it is
>readers digest version. If I have offended you then I have not
>Wm "Mark" Clifford
>941 Lake Charm Drive
>Oviedo FL 32765-6831
>321-262-6009 (especially nights and weekends or Sprint PCS)
>From: Franklin Perez [mailto:perezfranklin@...]
>Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 7:46 PM
>To: WClifford@...; LLawver@...; onebigbarr@...
>Subject: RE: Executive Session: Robert's Rules and Due Process Draft
>Hello Mark Clifford:
> >Mike Barr has said that I "must" respond. Larry Lawyer suggests leading
> >example and saying nothing. Franklin speaks in high terms but then asks
> >to violate his and others due process and I cannot do that even if he
> >requests it.
>I do not understand why you even need approval from the Executive Committee
>to post the below mentioned message in the LPFSC egroup. You do not need my
>permission, Larry's permission, or anyone else's permission.
>You have a right to freedom of expression. I respect that even if I may not
>agree with everything you say.
>But since you are asking my vote, then I will say yes, post the e-mail
>mentioned below. Get this out in the open.
>Libertarian Party of Seminole County Florida
> >--- ---
> >Fellow Libertarians;
> >Some of you may be surprised by my delay / silence and confusion in
> >to other postings.
> >In our club we are directed to follow Robert's Rules of Order by our "By
> >Laws". Robert's Rules embrace tradition and even defer to tradition
> >time to time.
> >They are a fixed set of rules that provide for changing the rules and the
> >method by which such change is made. We can modify our Constitution and
> >Laws to allow for electronic discussion if two-thirds of the body
> >But until we create that process, I am bound to protect everyone by the
> >set of rules, even if they ask me to do otherwise. (A city mayor was
> >publicly faulted for picking up a cell phone to conduct a vote before the
> >rules were in place to permit such a vote.)
> >To discuss a matter in an email forum excludes those members who choose
> >to use email. Actually it disadvantages them but when it comes to equal
> >treatment, disadvantaging someone is violating their right to due
> >Also, email includes many weaknesses as a communications medium since it
> >excludes 85% of the message (body language, voice inflection etc) that
> >face-to-face discussion includes. The appropriate place for discussion
> >the Business Meeting by placing an item on the agenda.
> >The call has been to not follow Robert's Rules by just doing it and I
> >to decline that invitation in order to protect the rights of the person
> >has made the request. Go figure. Imagine you are in a police station and
> >lady walks into the station and asks the officer at the desk to shoot
> >The officer still must respect the lady's life.
> >My apologies for not responding quickly and concisely -- as you deserve.
> >Separating the personal attack from the need to protect the rights of the
> >attacker in real time is not a trivial task. But it comes with the job
> >my apologies to you for not delivering that level of service.
> >I have reviewed Chapter XX - Disciplinary Procedures and the actions do
> >appear yet to rise to a level of warranting drawing up charges so at this
> >point we will be meeting and talking our way through the issue. We will
> >work our way to the underlying issue or problem and deal with it in an
> >appropriate forum.
> >I will not reply to replies to this post and if you disagree with my
> >since it is something I am obligated to do. To reply to this post, pick
> >the phone and let's talk. Liberty is too important to risk.
> >Wm "Mark" Clifford
> >941 Lake Charm Drive
> >Oviedo FL 32765-6831
> >321-262-6009 (especially nights and weekends or Sprint PCS)
> >mailto: WClifford@...
>From must-see cities to the best beaches, plan a getaway with the Spring
>Travel Guide! http://special.msn.com/local/springtravel.armx