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Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"

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  • David Peterson
    Motorized scooters being the operative term, not applying to electric bicycles, etc under 100 lbs weight and under 20 mph in self powered mode.David P
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 4, 2001
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      "Motorized scooters" being the operative term, not applying to electric
      bicycles, etc under 100 lbs weight and under 20 mph in self powered mode.

      David P

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Kipton Moravec" <kip@...>
      To: "Mike McCarty" <jmccarty@...>; <TWCarroll@...>
      Cc: <dprglist-admin@...>; <dpa@...>; <dprglist@...>;
      <seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:21 AM
      Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Re: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"


      > I agree. Existing motorized 2-wheel scooters are illegal in most North
      > Texas cities. You can't ride them on the streets and you can't ride them
      on
      > the sidewalks.
      >
      > Why should this thing be any different?
      >
      > Kip
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Mike McCarty" <jmccarty@...>
      > To: <TWCarroll@...>
      > Cc: <dprglist-admin@...>; <dpa@...>; <dprglist@...>;
      > <seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:10 AM
      > Subject: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"
      >
      >
      > > On Tue, 4 Dec 2001 TWCarroll@... wrote:
      > >
      > > > Mike and David,
      > > > You wrote: "It seems you guys have perhaps not pondered the
      > significance
      > > > of a vehicle that can balance itself. Especially for application to
      > > > robotics."
      > >
      > > [snip]
      > >
      > > Er, *I* didn't write that. I think that his device is going to flop. I
      > > also think that, if it does what I've seen claimed, it's a significant
      > > achievement, just not in personal transportation. I especially don't
      > > think it's going to result in changing the way we design cities.
      > >
      > > There are even legal problems in most places.
      > >
      > > Mike
      > > --
      > > char *p="char
      > *p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
      > > This message made from 100% recycled bits.
      > > I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
      > > I don't speak for Alcatel <- They make me say that.
      > >
      > >
      > > _______________________________________________
      > > DPRGlist mailing list
      > > DPRGlist@...
      > > http://nimon.ncc.com/mailman/listinfo/dprglist
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > SeattleRobotics-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >


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    • David Peterson
      That s pretty good Mike, but unfortunately the Transportation code hasn t been updated for the last 2 years worth of amendments, and states such on their intro
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 4, 2001
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        That's pretty good Mike, but unfortunately the Transportation code hasn't
        been updated for the last 2 years worth of amendments, and states such on
        their intro page at http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/statutes.html .
        Specific passed amendments included to Section 541 Definitions
        541.201. Vehicles
        The following definition of electric bicycle was passed by the Texas
        legislature in 2001:

        (10) "Motor-driven cycle" means a motorcycle equipped with a motor that has
        an engine piston displacement of 250 cubic centimeters or less. The term
        does not include an electric bicycle.
        (11) "Motor vehicle" means a self-propelled vehicle or a vehicle that is
        propelled by electric power from overhead trolley wires. The term does not
        include an electric bicycle.

        (24) "Electric bicycle" means a bicycle that:

        (A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in
        combination with the application of human power;
        (B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without the
        application of human power; and

        (C) does not exceed a weight of 100 pounds.


        There are also some mentions in Section 551, but I'm really getting tired of
        playing armchair lawyer.

        David P

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Mike McCarty" <jmccarty@...>
        To: "David Peterson" <robologist@...>
        Cc: <TWCarroll@...>; "Kipton Moravec" <kip@...>;
        <dprglist-admin@...>; <dpa@...>; <dprglist@...>;
        <seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"


        > On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, David Peterson wrote:
        >
        > > "Motorized scooters" being the operative term, not applying to electric
        > > bicycles, etc under 100 lbs weight and under 20 mph in self powered
        mode.
        > >
        > > David P
        >
        >
        > I just checked, and Texas law does not recognize or define the word
        > "scooter". It also has no provisions in definitions concerning weight.
        > "IT" is, plainly and simply, a motor vehicle, and is subject to all
        > provisions relating to them.
        >
        > If you are interested, you might check
        >
        > http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/tntoc.html
        >
        > Particularly section 541 which is definitions related to vehicles and
        > traffic.
        >
        > Here is a brief excerpt:
        >
        > 541.201
        >
        > (2) "Bicycle" means a device that a person may ride and that is
        > propelled by human power and has two tandem wheels at least one of
        > which is more than 14 inches in diameter.
        > ...
        > (8) "Moped" means a motor-driven cycle that cannot attain a speed
        > in one mile of more than 30 miles per hour and the engine of
        > which:
        >
        > (A) cannot produce more than two-brake horsepower; and
        >
        > (B) if an internal combustion engine, has a piston displacement of
        > 50 cubic centimeters or less and connects to a power drive system
        > that does not require the operator to shift gears.
        >
        > (9) "Motorcycle" means a motor vehicle, other than a tractor, that
        > is equipped with a rider's saddle and designed to have when
        > propelled not more than three wheels on the ground.
        >
        > (10) "Motor-driven cycle" means a motorcycle equipped with a motor
        > that has an engine piston displacement of 250 cubic centimeters or
        > less.
        >
        > (11) "Motor vehicle" means a self-propelled vehicle or a vehicle
        > that is propelled by electric power from overhead trolley wires.
        >
        > From this one can readily see that this is not a bicycle, moped, nor a
        > motorcycle. It is, however, a motor vehicle.
        >
        > Mike
        > --
        > char *p="char
        *p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
        > This message made from 100% recycled bits.
        > I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
        > I don't speak for Alcatel <- They make me say that.


        _________________________________________________________
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      • Jeff Koenig
        All - Regarding the Segway -unfriendly laws currently on the books, I have heard that around the turn of the century, in at least one state there was a law
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 5, 2001
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          All -

          Regarding the "Segway"-unfriendly laws currently on the books, I have heard
          that around the turn of the century, in at least one state there was a law
          which stated that someone traveling in a motor-coach had to have a person
          walking in front of said motor-coach, waving a lantern to alert passers-by
          and to help not scare the horses.

          If the populus really wants to embrace the Segway, or motor-scooters in
          general, the laws will bend to gain their acceptance. If there is no public
          outcry, there will be no reason to change the existing laws.

          At least that is how I have been told it is supposed to work. :-)
          (I didn't take into account graft, bribery and political favor).

          Just my 50th of a dollar,
          Jeff Koenig


          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: David Peterson <robologist@...>
          >To: Mike McCarty <jmccarty@...>
          >Cc: TWCarroll@... <TWCarroll@...>; Kipton Moravec <kip@...>;
          >dprglist-admin@... <dprglist-admin@...>; dpa@...
          ><dpa@...>; dprglist@... <dprglist@...>;
          >seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com <seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com>
          >Date: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 11:09 PM
          >Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"
          >
          >
          >>That's pretty good Mike, but unfortunately the Transportation code hasn't
          >>been updated for the last 2 years worth of amendments, and states such on
          >>their intro page at http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/statutes.html
          .
          >>Specific passed amendments included to Section 541 Definitions
          >>541.201. Vehicles
          >>The following definition of electric bicycle was passed by the Texas
          >>legislature in 2001:
          >>
          >>(10) "Motor-driven cycle" means a motorcycle equipped with a motor that
          has
          >>an engine piston displacement of 250 cubic centimeters or less. The term
          >>does not include an electric bicycle.
          >>(11) "Motor vehicle" means a self-propelled vehicle or a vehicle that is
          >>propelled by electric power from overhead trolley wires. The term does not
          >>include an electric bicycle.
          >>
          >>(24) "Electric bicycle" means a bicycle that:
          >>
          >>(A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in
          >>combination with the application of human power;
          >>(B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without the
          >>application of human power; and
          >>
          >>(C) does not exceed a weight of 100 pounds.
          >>
          >>
          >>There are also some mentions in Section 551, but I'm really getting tired
          >of
          >>playing armchair lawyer.
          >>
          >>David P
          >>
          >>----- Original Message -----
          >>From: "Mike McCarty" <jmccarty@...>
          >>To: "David Peterson" <robologist@...>
          >>Cc: <TWCarroll@...>; "Kipton Moravec" <kip@...>;
          >><dprglist-admin@...>; <dpa@...>; <dprglist@...>;
          >><seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com>
          >>Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:12 PM
          >>Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"
          >>
          >>
          >>> On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, David Peterson wrote:
          >>>
          >>> > "Motorized scooters" being the operative term, not applying to
          electric
          >>> > bicycles, etc under 100 lbs weight and under 20 mph in self powered
          >>mode.
          >>> >
          >>> > David P
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> I just checked, and Texas law does not recognize or define the word
          >>> "scooter". It also has no provisions in definitions concerning weight.
          >>> "IT" is, plainly and simply, a motor vehicle, and is subject to all
          >>> provisions relating to them.
          >>>
          >>> If you are interested, you might check
          >>>
          >>> http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/tntoc.html
          >>>
          >>> Particularly section 541 which is definitions related to vehicles and
          >>> traffic.
          >>>
          >>> Here is a brief excerpt:
          >>>
          >>> 541.201
          >>>
          >>> (2) "Bicycle" means a device that a person may ride and that is
          >>> propelled by human power and has two tandem wheels at least one of
          >>> which is more than 14 inches in diameter.
          >>> ...
          >>> (8) "Moped" means a motor-driven cycle that cannot attain a speed
          >>> in one mile of more than 30 miles per hour and the engine of
          >>> which:
          >>>
          >>> (A) cannot produce more than two-brake horsepower; and
          >>>
          >>> (B) if an internal combustion engine, has a piston displacement of
          >>> 50 cubic centimeters or less and connects to a power drive system
          >>> that does not require the operator to shift gears.
          >>>
          >>> (9) "Motorcycle" means a motor vehicle, other than a tractor, that
          >>> is equipped with a rider's saddle and designed to have when
          >>> propelled not more than three wheels on the ground.
          >>>
          >>> (10) "Motor-driven cycle" means a motorcycle equipped with a motor
          >>> that has an engine piston displacement of 250 cubic centimeters or
          >>> less.
          >>>
          >>> (11) "Motor vehicle" means a self-propelled vehicle or a vehicle
          >>> that is propelled by electric power from overhead trolley wires.
          >>>
          >>> From this one can readily see that this is not a bicycle, moped, nor a
          >>> motorcycle. It is, however, a motor vehicle.
          >>>
          >>> Mike
          >>> --
          >>> char *p="char
          >>*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
          >>> This message made from 100% recycled bits.
          >>> I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
          >>> I don't speak for Alcatel <- They make me say that.
          >>
          >>
          >>_________________________________________________________
          >>Do You Yahoo!?
          >>Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
          >>
          >>_______________________________________________
          >>DPRGlist mailing list
          >>DPRGlist@...
          >>http://nimon.ncc.com/mailman/listinfo/dprglist
          >
          >_______________________________________________
          >DPRGlist mailing list
          >DPRGlist@...
          >http://nimon.ncc.com/mailman/listinfo/dprglist
        • Steven Phellps
          I don t really think this would be of any huge issue (re vehicle laws). We ve wheelchairs running around the sidewalks, in stores, shopping centers etc. IT
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 5, 2001
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            I don't really think this would be of any huge issue (re vehicle laws).
            We've wheelchairs running around the sidewalks, in stores, shopping centers
            etc. IT might have to reduce the velocity from 12mph to something closer to
            speeds of a wheelchair.



            >From: "David Peterson" <robologist@...>
            >To: "Mike McCarty" <jmccarty@...>
            >CC: <TWCarroll@...>, "Kipton Moravec" <kip@...>,
            ><dprglist-admin@...>, <dpa@...>, <dprglist@...>,
            ><seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com>
            >Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"
            >Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 23:05:20 -0600
            >
            >That's pretty good Mike, but unfortunately the Transportation code hasn't
            >been updated for the last 2 years worth of amendments, and states such on
            >their intro page at http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/statutes.html .
            >Specific passed amendments included to Section 541 Definitions
            >541.201. Vehicles
            >The following definition of electric bicycle was passed by the Texas
            >legislature in 2001:
            >
            >(10) "Motor-driven cycle" means a motorcycle equipped with a motor that has
            >an engine piston displacement of 250 cubic centimeters or less. The term
            >does not include an electric bicycle.
            >(11) "Motor vehicle" means a self-propelled vehicle or a vehicle that is
            >propelled by electric power from overhead trolley wires. The term does not
            >include an electric bicycle.
            >
            >(24) "Electric bicycle" means a bicycle that:
            >
            >(A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in
            >combination with the application of human power;
            >(B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without the
            >application of human power; and
            >
            >(C) does not exceed a weight of 100 pounds.
            >
            >
            >There are also some mentions in Section 551, but I'm really getting tired
            >of
            >playing armchair lawyer.
            >
            >David P
            >
            >----- Original Message -----
            >From: "Mike McCarty" <jmccarty@...>
            >To: "David Peterson" <robologist@...>
            >Cc: <TWCarroll@...>; "Kipton Moravec" <kip@...>;
            ><dprglist-admin@...>; <dpa@...>; <dprglist@...>;
            ><seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com>
            >Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:12 PM
            >Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"
            >
            >
            > > On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, David Peterson wrote:
            > >
            > > > "Motorized scooters" being the operative term, not applying to
            >electric
            > > > bicycles, etc under 100 lbs weight and under 20 mph in self powered
            >mode.
            > > >
            > > > David P
            > >
            > >
            > > I just checked, and Texas law does not recognize or define the word
            > > "scooter". It also has no provisions in definitions concerning weight.
            > > "IT" is, plainly and simply, a motor vehicle, and is subject to all
            > > provisions relating to them.
            > >
            > > If you are interested, you might check
            > >
            > > http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/tntoc.html
            > >
            > > Particularly section 541 which is definitions related to vehicles and
            > > traffic.
            > >
            > > Here is a brief excerpt:
            > >
            > > 541.201
            > >
            > > (2) "Bicycle" means a device that a person may ride and that is
            > > propelled by human power and has two tandem wheels at least one of
            > > which is more than 14 inches in diameter.
            > > ...
            > > (8) "Moped" means a motor-driven cycle that cannot attain a speed
            > > in one mile of more than 30 miles per hour and the engine of
            > > which:
            > >
            > > (A) cannot produce more than two-brake horsepower; and
            > >
            > > (B) if an internal combustion engine, has a piston displacement of
            > > 50 cubic centimeters or less and connects to a power drive system
            > > that does not require the operator to shift gears.
            > >
            > > (9) "Motorcycle" means a motor vehicle, other than a tractor, that
            > > is equipped with a rider's saddle and designed to have when
            > > propelled not more than three wheels on the ground.
            > >
            > > (10) "Motor-driven cycle" means a motorcycle equipped with a motor
            > > that has an engine piston displacement of 250 cubic centimeters or
            > > less.
            > >
            > > (11) "Motor vehicle" means a self-propelled vehicle or a vehicle
            > > that is propelled by electric power from overhead trolley wires.
            > >
            > > From this one can readily see that this is not a bicycle, moped, nor a
            > > motorcycle. It is, however, a motor vehicle.
            > >
            > > Mike
            > > --
            > > char *p="char
            >*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
            > > This message made from 100% recycled bits.
            > > I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
            > > I don't speak for Alcatel <- They make me say that.
            >
            >
            >_________________________________________________________
            >Do You Yahoo!?
            >Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
            >
            >
            >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            >SeattleRobotics-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >


            _________________________________________________________________
            Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
          • dlc@verinet.com
            It ll work MUCH better than a wheelchair because it responds to the reflexive actions of the rider! When we are running and about to hit someone/thing, we
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 5, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              It'll work MUCH better than a wheelchair because it responds to the
              reflexive actions of the rider! When we are running and about to hit
              someone/thing, we pull back, or lean back, this device will automagically
              sense that and respond accordingly! Give it some kind of a SONAR proximity
              device and it can be set to automatically respond to imminent collision in
              the case of an inattentive rider. This is one of the coolest things since
              sliced bread! The speed won't matter with built in collision detection,
              any speed will be reasonably safe!
              I also agree with Peter, this is a most cool idea for robots mixing with
              people. Very exciting.

              most and very cool,
              DLC
              --
              ---------------------------------------
              Dennis Clark dlc@...
              http://www.frii.com/~dlc/botlinks.htm
              ---------------------------------------


              > I don't really think this would be of any huge issue (re vehicle laws).
              > We've wheelchairs running around the sidewalks, in stores, shopping centers
              > etc. IT might have to reduce the velocity from 12mph to something closer to
              > speeds of a wheelchair.
              >
              >
              >
              > >From: "David Peterson" <robologist@...>
              > >To: "Mike McCarty" <jmccarty@...>
              > >CC: <TWCarroll@...>, "Kipton Moravec" <kip@...>,
              > ><dprglist-admin@...>, <dpa@...>, <dprglist@...>,
              > ><seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com>
              > >Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"
              > >Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 23:05:20 -0600
              > >
              > >That's pretty good Mike, but unfortunately the Transportation code hasn't
              > >been updated for the last 2 years worth of amendments, and states such on
              > >their intro page at http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/statutes.html .
              > >Specific passed amendments included to Section 541 Definitions
              > >541.201. Vehicles
              > >The following definition of electric bicycle was passed by the Texas
              > >legislature in 2001:
              > >
              > >(10) "Motor-driven cycle" means a motorcycle equipped with a motor that has
              > >an engine piston displacement of 250 cubic centimeters or less. The term
              > >does not include an electric bicycle.
              > >(11) "Motor vehicle" means a self-propelled vehicle or a vehicle that is
              > >propelled by electric power from overhead trolley wires. The term does not
              > >include an electric bicycle.
              > >
              > >(24) "Electric bicycle" means a bicycle that:
              > >
              > >(A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in
              > >combination with the application of human power;
              > >(B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without the
              > >application of human power; and
              > >
              > >(C) does not exceed a weight of 100 pounds.
              > >
              > >
              > >There are also some mentions in Section 551, but I'm really getting tired
              > >of
              > >playing armchair lawyer.
              > >
              > >David P
              > >
              > >----- Original Message -----
              > >From: "Mike McCarty" <jmccarty@...>
              > >To: "David Peterson" <robologist@...>
              > >Cc: <TWCarroll@...>; "Kipton Moravec" <kip@...>;
              > ><dprglist-admin@...>; <dpa@...>; <dprglist@...>;
              > ><seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com>
              > >Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:12 PM
              > >Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"
              > >
              > >
              > > > On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, David Peterson wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > "Motorized scooters" being the operative term, not applying to
              > >electric
              > > > > bicycles, etc under 100 lbs weight and under 20 mph in self powered
              > >mode.
              > > > >
              > > > > David P
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I just checked, and Texas law does not recognize or define the word
              > > > "scooter". It also has no provisions in definitions concerning weight.
              > > > "IT" is, plainly and simply, a motor vehicle, and is subject to all
              > > > provisions relating to them.
              > > >
              > > > If you are interested, you might check
              > > >
              > > > http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/tntoc.html
              > > >
              > > > Particularly section 541 which is definitions related to vehicles and
              > > > traffic.
              > > >
              > > > Here is a brief excerpt:
              > > >
              > > > 541.201
              > > >
              > > > (2) "Bicycle" means a device that a person may ride and that is
              > > > propelled by human power and has two tandem wheels at least one of
              > > > which is more than 14 inches in diameter.
              > > > ...
              > > > (8) "Moped" means a motor-driven cycle that cannot attain a speed
              > > > in one mile of more than 30 miles per hour and the engine of
              > > > which:
              > > >
              > > > (A) cannot produce more than two-brake horsepower; and
              > > >
              > > > (B) if an internal combustion engine, has a piston displacement of
              > > > 50 cubic centimeters or less and connects to a power drive system
              > > > that does not require the operator to shift gears.
              > > >
              > > > (9) "Motorcycle" means a motor vehicle, other than a tractor, that
              > > > is equipped with a rider's saddle and designed to have when
              > > > propelled not more than three wheels on the ground.
              > > >
              > > > (10) "Motor-driven cycle" means a motorcycle equipped with a motor
              > > > that has an engine piston displacement of 250 cubic centimeters or
              > > > less.
              > > >
              > > > (11) "Motor vehicle" means a self-propelled vehicle or a vehicle
              > > > that is propelled by electric power from overhead trolley wires.
              > > >
              > > > From this one can readily see that this is not a bicycle, moped, nor a
              > > > motorcycle. It is, however, a motor vehicle.
              > > >
              > > > Mike
              > > > --
              > > > char *p="char
              > >*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
              > > > This message made from 100% recycled bits.
              > > > I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
              > > > I don't speak for Alcatel <- They make me say that.
              > >
              > >
              > >_________________________________________________________
              > >Do You Yahoo!?
              > >Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
              > >
              > >
              > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > >SeattleRobotics-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              >
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            • oric_dan
              ... ........... The speed won t matter with built in collision detection, ... ............ Famous last words - just imagine your local sidewalk full of 1000s
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 5, 2001
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                --- In SeattleRobotics@y..., dlc@v... wrote:
                ...........
                The speed won't matter with built in collision detection,
                > any speed will be reasonably safe!
                ............


                Famous last words - just imagine your local sidewalk full of 1000s of
                these things all running at "any" speed. It won't matter to me if all
                of these guys crack up into each other, but where do the pedestrians
                go?

                ;-)
              • Steven Phellps
                Sure we can add some proximity detector (anti-collision mechanism) but we don t have to have 2 wheels. Why add the anti-collision algorithms and perform the
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 5, 2001
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                  Sure we can add some proximity detector (anti-collision mechanism) but we
                  don't have to have 2 wheels. Why add the "anti-collision" algorithms and
                  perform the balance and not just make it a 4 wheeled anti-collision stable
                  platform ?

                  Are we going to have to carry this thing around with us, hop off to enter
                  buildings then to hop back on, shop with it ? Sounds almost like a big
                  heavy purse without the storage compartment (but again my wife's purse is
                  about 20LBS :).



                  >From: dlc@...
                  >To: dprglist-admin@..., seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"
                  >Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:20:21 GMT
                  >
                  > It'll work MUCH better than a wheelchair because it responds to the
                  >reflexive actions of the rider! When we are running and about to hit
                  >someone/thing, we pull back, or lean back, this device will automagically
                  >sense that and respond accordingly! Give it some kind of a SONAR proximity
                  >device and it can be set to automatically respond to imminent collision in
                  >the case of an inattentive rider. This is one of the coolest things since
                  >sliced bread! The speed won't matter with built in collision detection,
                  >any speed will be reasonably safe!
                  > I also agree with Peter, this is a most cool idea for robots mixing with
                  >people. Very exciting.
                  >
                  >most and very cool,
                  >DLC
                  >--
                  >---------------------------------------
                  >Dennis Clark dlc@...
                  >http://www.frii.com/~dlc/botlinks.htm
                  >---------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  > > I don't really think this would be of any huge issue (re vehicle laws).
                  > > We've wheelchairs running around the sidewalks, in stores, shopping
                  >centers
                  > > etc. IT might have to reduce the velocity from 12mph to something
                  >closer to
                  > > speeds of a wheelchair.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >From: "David Peterson" <robologist@...>
                  > > >To: "Mike McCarty" <jmccarty@...>
                  > > >CC: <TWCarroll@...>, "Kipton Moravec" <kip@...>,
                  > > ><dprglist-admin@...>, <dpa@...>, <dprglist@...>,
                  > > ><seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > >Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"
                  > > >Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 23:05:20 -0600
                  > > >
                  > > >That's pretty good Mike, but unfortunately the Transportation code
                  >hasn't
                  > > >been updated for the last 2 years worth of amendments, and states such
                  >on
                  > > >their intro page at
                  >http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/statutes.html .
                  > > >Specific passed amendments included to Section 541 Definitions
                  > > >541.201. Vehicles
                  > > >The following definition of electric bicycle was passed by the Texas
                  > > >legislature in 2001:
                  > > >
                  > > >(10) "Motor-driven cycle" means a motorcycle equipped with a motor that
                  >has
                  > > >an engine piston displacement of 250 cubic centimeters or less. The
                  >term
                  > > >does not include an electric bicycle.
                  > > >(11) "Motor vehicle" means a self-propelled vehicle or a vehicle that
                  >is
                  > > >propelled by electric power from overhead trolley wires. The term does
                  >not
                  > > >include an electric bicycle.
                  > > >
                  > > >(24) "Electric bicycle" means a bicycle that:
                  > > >
                  > > >(A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in
                  > > >combination with the application of human power;
                  > > >(B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without the
                  > > >application of human power; and
                  > > >
                  > > >(C) does not exceed a weight of 100 pounds.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >There are also some mentions in Section 551, but I'm really getting
                  >tired
                  > > >of
                  > > >playing armchair lawyer.
                  > > >
                  > > >David P
                  > > >
                  > > >----- Original Message -----
                  > > >From: "Mike McCarty" <jmccarty@...>
                  > > >To: "David Peterson" <robologist@...>
                  > > >Cc: <TWCarroll@...>; "Kipton Moravec" <kip@...>;
                  > > ><dprglist-admin@...>; <dpa@...>; <dprglist@...>;
                  > > ><seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > >Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:12 PM
                  > > >Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, David Peterson wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > "Motorized scooters" being the operative term, not applying to
                  > > >electric
                  > > > > > bicycles, etc under 100 lbs weight and under 20 mph in self
                  >powered
                  > > >mode.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > David P
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I just checked, and Texas law does not recognize or define the word
                  > > > > "scooter". It also has no provisions in definitions concerning
                  >weight.
                  > > > > "IT" is, plainly and simply, a motor vehicle, and is subject to all
                  > > > > provisions relating to them.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > If you are interested, you might check
                  > > > >
                  > > > > http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/tntoc.html
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Particularly section 541 which is definitions related to vehicles
                  >and
                  > > > > traffic.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Here is a brief excerpt:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 541.201
                  > > > >
                  > > > > (2) "Bicycle" means a device that a person may ride and that is
                  > > > > propelled by human power and has two tandem wheels at least one
                  >of
                  > > > > which is more than 14 inches in diameter.
                  > > > > ...
                  > > > > (8) "Moped" means a motor-driven cycle that cannot attain a
                  >speed
                  > > > > in one mile of more than 30 miles per hour and the engine of
                  > > > > which:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > (A) cannot produce more than two-brake horsepower; and
                  > > > >
                  > > > > (B) if an internal combustion engine, has a piston displacement
                  >of
                  > > > > 50 cubic centimeters or less and connects to a power drive
                  >system
                  > > > > that does not require the operator to shift gears.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > (9) "Motorcycle" means a motor vehicle, other than a tractor,
                  >that
                  > > > > is equipped with a rider's saddle and designed to have when
                  > > > > propelled not more than three wheels on the ground.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > (10) "Motor-driven cycle" means a motorcycle equipped with a
                  >motor
                  > > > > that has an engine piston displacement of 250 cubic centimeters
                  >or
                  > > > > less.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > (11) "Motor vehicle" means a self-propelled vehicle or a
                  >vehicle
                  > > > > that is propelled by electric power from overhead trolley
                  >wires.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > From this one can readily see that this is not a bicycle, moped, nor
                  >a
                  > > > > motorcycle. It is, however, a motor vehicle.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Mike
                  > > > > --
                  > > > > char *p="char
                  > > >*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
                  > > > > This message made from 100% recycled bits.
                  > > > > I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
                  > > > > I don't speak for Alcatel <- They make me say that.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >_________________________________________________________
                  > > >Do You Yahoo!?
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                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > >SeattleRobotics-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
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                  > >
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                • Steven Phellps
                  I wasn t suggesting that wheelchairs were motor vehicles. I don t know what would constitute one anyway. I was pointing out that we have devices like
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 5, 2001
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                    I wasn't suggesting that wheelchairs were motor vehicles. I don't know what
                    would constitute one anyway. I was pointing out that we have devices like
                    wheelchairs and they are clearly allowed. They are slow moving and betcha
                    heavier than Ginger. Logically there doesn't seem to require a major act of
                    congress to allow such devices. Hence I doubt this would be a huge issue
                    as it seemed in the thread.

                    Yes there would require some law of some sort but I doubt that it'd be
                    compared to anything like a car, motor cycle etc.

                    And of course like many other things, if the public demands it something
                    will eventually change. I don't think we'll see any of these issues
                    seriously addressed anytime soon.



                    >From: Mike McCarty <jmccarty@...>
                    >To: Steven Phellps <scp2000@...>
                    >CC: robologist@..., TWCarroll@..., kip@...,
                    >dprglist-admin@..., dpa@..., dprglist@...,
                    >seattlerobotics@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: [DPRG] Re: [DPRG]"IT"
                    >Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 14:13:18 -0600 (CST)
                    >
                    >On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Steven Phellps wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > I don't really think this would be of any huge issue (re vehicle laws).
                    > > We've wheelchairs running around the sidewalks, in stores, shopping
                    >centers
                    > > etc. IT might have to reduce the velocity from 12mph to something
                    >closer to
                    > > speeds of a wheelchair.
                    >
                    >
                    >This reasoning unfortunately doesn't hold water. Wheelchairs are not
                    >"motor vehicles".
                    >
                    >If the public *really* want it, then the laws will change. In the
                    >meantime, those who use these devices are going to have an uphill
                    >battle.
                    >
                    >Mike
                    >--
                    >char *p="char
                    >*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
                    >This message made from 100% recycled bits.
                    >I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
                    >I don't speak for Alcatel <- They make me say that.
                    >


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