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Re: [SeattleRobotics] Robomagellan rules question

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  • David Buckley
    And I would guess the organiser would still see that as cheating even if not specifically banned by the rules. ... From: Tony Mactutis To:
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 5, 2013
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      And I would guess the organiser would still see that as cheating even if not specifically banned by the rules.
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 4:30 AM
      Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Robomagellan rules question

       

      Question: if my controller is a cellphone, can I carry the phone over the course during the 30-minute prep period, or would that be considered a violation of "the actual robot will not be allowed on the course".

      If that is true (that carrying the phone would not be allowed), then that would seem to imply that I would need 2 cellphones to do what I have in mind -

      thanks!

      On 8/17/2013 9:49 AM, Bob Cook wrote:
       

      Robothon is being held on Saturday September 21st this year! Still plenty of time to finish (or start!) a robot for your favorite contest.

      There will be four events this year:

      - Line Following
      - Line Maze
      - Minisumo
      - Robo-Magellan

      You can find all the current information about the event, contest rules, schedule, etc, at: http://www.robothon.org/

      Please register any robots you're hoping to compete with. You can use the same form for display tables. This really helps with scheduling!

      http://www.robothon.org/robothon/robot.php

      Thanks, and hope to see you at Robothon!


    • Randy M. Dumse
      I really don t know David. Here are two very similar cases, how can you say no them? 1.) I bring a robot with a handheld GPS. I leave the robot at the
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 5, 2013
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        I really don’t know David. Here are two very similar cases, how can you say no them?

         

        1.)    I bring a robot with a handheld GPS. I leave the robot at the start, and walk the handheld CPS only on the course.

        2.)    I bring two GPS (let them both be handhelds, OR, two identical phones with GPS). I walk one phone/GPS. I leave the other on the robot back at the start. I transfer the information from one to the other. (Could be by exchanging MicroSD, or even by nearfield communications with nothing physical from the walk’d one to the sitting one.

         

        If you don’t exclude using identical GPS equipment in both cases, what’s the difference? And wasn’t this the original idea , for example with JBot, where DPA was going to be able to detach his ETrax, and walk with it?

         

        Randy

         

        From: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Buckley
        Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2013 5:43 AM
        To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Robomagellan rules question

         




        And I would guess the organiser would still see that as cheating even if not specifically banned by the rules.

         

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 4:30 AM

        Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Robomagellan rules question

         

         

        Question: if my controller is a cellphone, can I carry the phone over the course during the 30-minute prep period, or would that be considered a violation of "the actual robot will not be allowed on the course".

        If that is true (that carrying the phone would not be allowed), then that would seem to imply that I would need 2 cellphones to do what I have in mind -

        thanks!

         

      • Bob Cook
        Hi Tony, I m the judge for this year s Robo-Magellan event, so I guess I get to decide these things. :) In the past we ve allowed removable GPS units to be
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 5, 2013
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          Hi Tony,

          I'm the judge for this year's Robo-Magellan event, so I guess I get to decide these things.  :)

          In the past we've allowed removable GPS units to be walked around the course during the 30 minute preparation phase. I'm fine with your cellphone also being walked around the course for the same reason.

          The game is intended to be a display of autonomous robots roaming and navigating in an outdoor environment. The spirit of the rules is to NOT pre-record your robot's movements step by step, although it makes sense to use some sort of waypoint system and have the robot autonomously navigate between waypoints.

          Its really on the honor system for each contestant to keep with this intention (e.g. I'm not going to inspect your cellphone or source code for signs of cheating).

          - Bob Cook


          On 2013-09-04, at 8:30 PM, Tony Mactutis <tony@...> wrote:


          Question: if my controller is a cellphone, can I carry the phone over the course during the 30-minute prep period, or would that be considered a violation of "the actual robot will not be allowed on the course".

          If that is true (that carrying the phone would not be allowed), then that would seem to imply that I would need 2 cellphones to do what I have in mind -

          thanks!


        • Randy M. Dumse
          Bob Cook said: Thursday, September 5, 2013 8:27 AM ... Bob, I applaud this decision. It perhaps may not be the best for eliminating cheating, but it is at
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 5, 2013
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            Bob Cook said: Thursday, September 5, 2013 8:27 AM
            > In the past we've allowed removable GPS units to be
            > walked around the course during the 30 minute
            > preparation phase. I'm fine with your cellphone also
            > being walked around the course for the same reason.

            Bob, I applaud this decision. It perhaps may not be the
            best for eliminating cheating, but it is at least enforceable.

            Other option would be eliminate the walk around.

            There will come a day when that will be an appropriate
            Further restriction. But probably not now.

            Randy
          • David Buckley
            I would think that transferring GPS way points would be in the spirit of things. And I don t think walking the course and recording data and then have the
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 5, 2013
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              I would think that transferring GPS way points would be in the spirit of things.
              And I don't think walking the course and recording data and then have the robot follow the recorded data would be.
               
              Say you had a competition where a robot arm had to do some manipulation task and one team put in joint coordinates or extracted information from video to determine joint coordinates and another team used a data glove to guide the robot in the correct path and grasp the object and had it remember.  
              Would the team with the data glove be competing in the spirit of things?
               
              If I was the organiser I would allow recording the course or using a data glove for the arm but then just before the competition itself I would alter things so say the middle way point was 3ft to the East or the object to be grasped was in some defined location offset from the recorded position.
              If it was just a recording then altering it to suit would not be easy. If it was a series of commands - eg goto this way point then that one, then editing the command list should be easy. Better still would be to be able to instruct the robot that the (say) third way point should be offset 3ft to the East of the given point.
               
              Nothing wrong with a data glove or teaching an arm using compliance - like Baxter, a method which has been around for as long as I can remember but just nobody used it, but the moves list should be editable even if the robot does that by automatically inserting a new recording.
               
              DAvid
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 1:45 PM
              Subject: RE: [SeattleRobotics] Robomagellan rules question

               

              I really don’t know David. Here are two very similar cases, how can you say no them?

              1.)    I bring a robot with a handheld GPS. I leave the robot at the start, and walk the handheld CPS only on the course.

              2.)    I bring two GPS (let them both be handhelds, OR, two identical phones with GPS). I walk one phone/GPS. I leave the other on the robot back at the start. I transfer the information from one to the other. (Could be by exchanging MicroSD, or even by nearfield communications with nothing physical from the walk’d one to the sitting one.

              If you don’t exclude using identical GPS equipment in both cases, what’s the difference? And wasn’t this the original idea , for example with JBot, where DPA was going to be able to detach his ETrax, and walk with it?

              Randy

              From: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Buckley
              Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2013 5:43 AM
              To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Robomagellan rules question




              And I would guess the organiser would still see that as cheating even if not specifically banned by the rules.

              ----- Original Message -----

              Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 4:30 AM

              Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Robomagellan rules question

               

              Question: if my controller is a cellphone, can I carry the phone over the course during the 30-minute prep period, or would that be considered a violation of "the actual robot will not be allowed on the course".

              If that is true (that carrying the phone would not be allowed), then that would seem to imply that I would need 2 cellphones to do what I have in mind -

              thanks!

            • dpa_io
              Hey Randy, not to be dis ing jBot, it needs no pre-walk to run a Robomagellan course! Just the target waypoints. It figures out everything else by itself.
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 5, 2013
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                Hey Randy, not to be dis'ing jBot, it needs no "pre-walk" to run a Robomagellan course! Just the target waypoints. It figures out everything else by itself.

                However, from where I sit, "cheating" has not been so much a problem with RoboMagellan, as has been "participation." Over emphasis on the former seems to depress the later.

                dpa



                --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, "Randy M. Dumse" <rmd@...> wrote:
                >
                > I really don't know David. Here are two very similar cases, how can you say
                > no them?
                >
                >
                >
                > 1.) I bring a robot with a handheld GPS. I leave the robot at the start,
                > and walk the handheld CPS only on the course.
                >
                > 2.) I bring two GPS (let them both be handhelds, OR, two identical phones
                > with GPS). I walk one phone/GPS. I leave the other on the robot back at the
                > start. I transfer the information from one to the other. (Could be by
                > exchanging MicroSD, or even by nearfield communications with nothing
                > physical from the walk'd one to the sitting one.
                >
                >
                >
                > If you don't exclude using identical GPS equipment in both cases, what's the
                > difference? And wasn't this the original idea , for example with JBot, where
                > DPA was going to be able to detach his ETrax, and walk with it?
                >
                >
                >
                > Randy
                >
                >
                >
                > From: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Buckley
                > Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2013 5:43 AM
                > To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Robomagellan rules question
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > And I would guess the organiser would still see that as cheating even if not
                > specifically banned by the rules.
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                >
                > From: Tony Mactutis <mailto:tony@...>
                >
                > To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 4:30 AM
                >
                > Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Robomagellan rules question
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Question: if my controller is a cellphone, can I carry the phone over the
                > course during the 30-minute prep period, or would that be considered a
                > violation of "the actual robot will not be allowed on the course".
                >
                > If that is true (that carrying the phone would not be allowed), then that
                > would seem to imply that I would need 2 cellphones to do what I have in mind
                > -
                >
                > thanks!
                >
              • KM6VV
                Maybe Robomagellan could be viewed as two two contests in one. One, steering to one or more goals (way-points) and navigating obstacles. Two, finding
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 5, 2013
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                  Maybe Robomagellan could be viewed as two two contests in one. One,
                  steering to one or more goals (way-points) and navigating obstacles.
                  Two, finding (detecting) and navigating to a defined object (cone). If
                  your GPS is good enough, one might not need the vision, or vice-versa?

                  What's more important, the vision or way-point navigation?
                  Accomplishing both can be quite difficult (I'm still working on mine).
                  Maybe a simpler "entry level" contests could do just the vision? Or
                  just way-point navigation?

                  I've pondered the best way to get way-points into my 'bot. Just driving
                  the 'bot around the course and saving all the moves seems a little too
                  much. But simply saving the way-points yourself with another GPS should
                  be fine, it's just duplicating the creation of the way-point list.

                  I want a hand held GPS that writes to an SD card. Or one might extract
                  GPS coordinates from a Google-Earth map. How do the judges make up the
                  way-point list?

                  Alan KM6VV
                  HBRobotics club.

                  On 9/5/2013 8:26 AM, dpa_io wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hey Randy, not to be dis'ing jBot, it needs no "pre-walk" to run a Robomagellan course! Just the target waypoints. It figures out everything else by itself.
                  >
                  > However, from where I sit, "cheating" has not been so much a problem with RoboMagellan, as has been "participation." Over emphasis on the former seems to depress the later.
                  >
                  > dpa
                  >
                  > --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, "Randy M. Dumse" <rmd@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> I really don't know David. Here are two very similar cases, how can you say
                  >> no them?
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> 1.) I bring a robot with a handheld GPS. I leave the robot at the start,
                  >> and walk the handheld CPS only on the course.
                  >>
                  >> 2.) I bring two GPS (let them both be handhelds, OR, two identical phones
                  >> with GPS). I walk one phone/GPS. I leave the other on the robot back at the
                  >> start. I transfer the information from one to the other. (Could be by
                  >> exchanging MicroSD, or even by nearfield communications with nothing
                  >> physical from the walk'd one to the sitting one.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> If you don't exclude using identical GPS equipment in both cases, what's the
                  >> difference? And wasn't this the original idea , for example with JBot, where
                  >> DPA was going to be able to detach his ETrax, and walk with it?
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Randy
                  >>
                  >>
                • Bob Cook
                  ... Awesome, I wish you were coming to Robothon, your robot is a fantastic creation and the envy of many. There are a few others who can accomplish the same
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 5, 2013
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                    On 2013-09-05, at 8:26 AM, "dpa_io" <davida@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Hey Randy, not to be dis'ing jBot, it needs no "pre-walk" to run a Robomagellan course! Just the target waypoints. It figures out everything else by itself.

                    Awesome, I wish you were coming to Robothon, your robot is a fantastic creation and the envy of many. There are a few others who can accomplish the same feat, but very few.

                    >
                    > However, from where I sit, "cheating" has not been so much a problem with RoboMagellan, as has been "participation." Over emphasis on the former seems to depress the later.

                    Completely agree. I'd rather bend the rules to encourage more participation than worry about the "legalese". We need more people building roving robots.

                    - Bob
                  • Tony Mactutis
                    Sounds good Bob, thanks -
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 5, 2013
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                      Sounds good Bob, thanks -

                      On 9/5/2013 6:26 AM, Bob Cook wrote:
                       

                      Hi Tony,


                      I'm the judge for this year's Robo-Magellan event, so I guess I get to decide these things.  :)

                      In the past we've allowed removable GPS units to be walked around the course during the 30 minute preparation phase. I'm fine with your cellphone also being walked around the course for the same reason.

                      The game is intended to be a display of autonomous robots roaming and navigating in an outdoor environment. The spirit of the rules is to NOT pre-record your robot's movements step by step, although it makes sense to use some sort of waypoint system and have the robot autonomously navigate between waypoints.

                      Its really on the honor system for each contestant to keep with this intention (e.g. I'm not going to inspect your cellphone or source code for signs of cheating).

                      - Bob Cook


                      On 2013-09-04, at 8:30 PM, Tony Mactutis <tony@...> wrote:


                      Question: if my controller is a cellphone, can I carry the phone over the course during the 30-minute prep period, or would that be considered a violation of "the actual robot will not be allowed on the course".

                      If that is true (that carrying the phone would not be allowed), then that would seem to imply that I would need 2 cellphones to do what I have in mind -

                      thanks!



                    • dpa_io
                      Exactly. more robots! best luck with your competition. dpa
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 6, 2013
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                        Exactly. more robots! best luck with your competition.

                        dpa




                        --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, Bob Cook <bob@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > On 2013-09-05, at 8:26 AM, "dpa_io" <davida@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Hey Randy, not to be dis'ing jBot, it needs no "pre-walk" to run a Robomagellan course! Just the target waypoints. It figures out everything else by itself.
                        >
                        > Awesome, I wish you were coming to Robothon, your robot is a fantastic creation and the envy of many. There are a few others who can accomplish the same feat, but very few.
                        >
                        > >
                        > > However, from where I sit, "cheating" has not been so much a problem with RoboMagellan, as has been "participation." Over emphasis on the former seems to depress the later.
                        >
                        > Completely agree. I'd rather bend the rules to encourage more participation than worry about the "legalese". We need more people building roving robots.
                        >
                        > - Bob
                        >
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