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BigDog flinging concrete blocks

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  • Peter Balch
    Fantastic video, wonderful robot but it s not clear why you would want to fling concrete blocks. Maybe if it loaded and unloaded itself that would be useful.
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 2, 2013
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      Fantastic video, wonderful robot but it's not clear why you would want to
      fling concrete blocks. Maybe if it loaded and unloaded itself that would be
      useful.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2jvLalY6ubc

      Perhaps throwing is easier than loading so they started with the easy stuff.

      I'm a huge fan of all the work but I don't yet see what the military is
      getting out of it. Any real application is _way_ in the future. A tracked
      vehicle of that size would be able to tranverse rougher ground and carry
      heavier loads for less fuel.

      I'm glad to see they're beginning to consider slightly rougher terrain
      though.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hNUeSUXOc-w

      Peter
    • Max Cato
      It s a DARPA project. DARPA is famous for aiming for the pie in the sky projects, which don t have any immediate benefit, but have the potential to do so.
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 2, 2013
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        It's a DARPA project. DARPA is famous for aiming for the "pie in the sky" projects, which don't have any immediate benefit, but have the potential to do so. From my own experience, when you're in "full battle" (body armor, shoulder inserts, knee pads, shoulder pads, and codpiece), plus an M-4, ammo, and carrying a pack to keep you supplied for the duration of your mission, it can add up to a lot of weight, which in places like Iraq or Afghanistan can become very fatiguing, even for those who are "used" to carrying such loads. This robot was envisioned to be able to go with the soldiers and lighten the load off of them. 

        A tracked vehicle could probably navigate all of the places these videos show, but the L3 is aimed at being able to go places that tracked vehicles cannot (such as certain fire bases in Afghanistan which currently require helicopter or squad based resupply missions, due to being in the mountains). A legged robot would have the advantage of being able to navigate over boulders or otherwise rocky terrain which would bog down a tracked vehicle. 

        That said, it's still very much in the experimental stages, although they've come a long ways from the last time I saw them (where they were just having it run on a treadmill). I hope to see more progress in the future!

        -Max


        From: Peter Balch <peterbalch@...>
        To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2013 2:03 AM
        Subject: [SeattleRobotics] BigDog flinging concrete blocks

         
        Fantastic video, wonderful robot but it's not clear why you would want to
        fling concrete blocks. Maybe if it loaded and unloaded itself that would be
        useful.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2jvLalY6ubc

        Perhaps throwing is easier than loading so they started with the easy stuff.

        I'm a huge fan of all the work but I don't yet see what the military is
        getting out of it. Any real application is _way_ in the future. A tracked
        vehicle of that size would be able to tranverse rougher ground and carry
        heavier loads for less fuel.

        I'm glad to see they're beginning to consider slightly rougher terrain
        though.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hNUeSUXOc-w

        Peter



      • Mark Kenworthy
        And while it is difficult to understand the utility of flinging concrete blocks, I found it to be a fantastic demonstration of the dynamic stability of the
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 2, 2013
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          And while it is difficult to understand the utility of flinging concrete blocks, I found it to be a fantastic demonstration of the dynamic stability of the robot.

           

          Mark

           

          From: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Max Cato
          Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 12:12 PM
          To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] BigDog flinging concrete blocks

           

           

          It's a DARPA project. DARPA is famous for aiming for the "pie in the sky" projects, which don't have any immediate benefit, but have the potential to do so. From my own experience, when you're in "full battle" (body armor, shoulder inserts, knee pads, shoulder pads, and codpiece), plus an M-4, ammo, and carrying a pack to keep you supplied for the duration of your mission, it can add up to a lot of weight, which in places like Iraq or Afghanistan can become very fatiguing, even for those who are "used" to carrying such loads. This robot was envisioned to be able to go with the soldiers and lighten the load off of them. 

           

          A tracked vehicle could probably navigate all of the places these videos show, but the L3 is aimed at being able to go places that tracked vehicles cannot (such as certain fire bases in Afghanistan which currently require helicopter or squad based resupply missions, due to being in the mountains). A legged robot would have the advantage of being able to navigate over boulders or otherwise rocky terrain which would bog down a tracked vehicle. 

           

          That said, it's still very much in the experimental stages, although they've come a long ways from the last time I saw them (where they were just having it run on a treadmill). I hope to see more progress in the future!

           

          -Max

           


          From: Peter Balch <peterbalch@...>
          To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2013 2:03 AM
          Subject: [SeattleRobotics] BigDog flinging concrete blocks

           

           

          Fantastic video, wonderful robot but it's not clear why you would want to
          fling concrete blocks. Maybe if it loaded and unloaded itself that would be
          useful.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2jvLalY6ubc

          Perhaps throwing is easier than loading so they started with the easy stuff.

          I'm a huge fan of all the work but I don't yet see what the military is
          getting out of it. Any real application is _way_ in the future. A tracked
          vehicle of that size would be able to tranverse rougher ground and carry
          heavier loads for less fuel.

          I'm glad to see they're beginning to consider slightly rougher terrain
          though.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hNUeSUXOc-w

          Peter

           

        • Jim Anunson
          If it was my design, and knowing BigDog s strength, I would want to demonstrate how strong the unit is. What a simple and clearly demonstrable test. Kind of
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 2, 2013
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            If it was my design, and knowing BigDog's strength, I would want to demonstrate how strong the unit is. What a simple and clearly demonstrable test. Kind of leaves little doubt. Now what can I use this ability for? Time to imagine.  


            Save time ..... see it my way. - Jim A


             

            To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
            From: mark@...
            Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 12:51:15 -0800
            Subject: RE: [SeattleRobotics] BigDog flinging concrete blocks

             

            And while it is difficult to understand the utility of flinging concrete blocks, I found it to be a fantastic demonstration of the dynamic stability of the robot.

             

            Mark

             

            From: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Max Cato
            Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 12:12 PM
            To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] BigDog flinging concrete blocks

             

             

            It's a DARPA project. DARPA is famous for aiming for the "pie in the sky" projects, which don't have any immediate benefit, but have the potential to do so. From my own experience, when you're in "full battle" (body armor, shoulder inserts, knee pads, shoulder pads, and codpiece), plus an M-4, ammo, and carrying a pack to keep you supplied for the duration of your mission, it can add up to a lot of weight, which in places like Iraq or Afghanistan can become very fatiguing, even for those who are "used" to carrying such loads. This robot was envisioned to be able to go with the soldiers and lighten the load off of them. 

             

            A tracked vehicle could probably navigate all of the places these videos show, but the L3 is aimed at being able to go places that tracked vehicles cannot (such as certain fire bases in Afghanistan which currently require helicopter or squad based resupply missions, due to being in the mountains). A legged robot would have the advantage of being able to navigate over boulders or otherwise rocky terrain which would bog down a tracked vehicle. 

             

            That said, it's still very much in the experimental stages, although they've come a long ways from the last time I saw them (where they were just having it run on a treadmill). I hope to see more progress in the future!

             

            -Max

             


            From: Peter Balch <peterbalch@...>
            To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2013 2:03 AM
            Subject: [SeattleRobotics] BigDog flinging concrete blocks

             

             

            Fantastic video, wonderful robot but it's not clear why you would want to
            fling concrete blocks. Maybe if it loaded and unloaded itself that would be
            useful.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2jvLalY6ubc

            Perhaps throwing is easier than loading so they started with the easy stuff.

            I'm a huge fan of all the work but I don't yet see what the military is
            getting out of it. Any real application is _way_ in the future. A tracked
            vehicle of that size would be able to tranverse rougher ground and carry
            heavier loads for less fuel.

            I'm glad to see they're beginning to consider slightly rougher terrain
            though.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hNUeSUXOc-w

            Peter

             


          • twcarroll@...
            Both Jim and Mark understand why Big Dog was shown slinging concrete blocks. Marc Raibert and his team at Boston Dynamics have done what no other company has
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 2, 2013
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                   Both Jim and Mark understand why Big Dog was shown slinging concrete blocks.  Marc Raibert and his team at Boston Dynamics have done what no other company has ever done.  Marc has long been the world's expert on dynamic balancing of legged robots, whether that be four, two or even one leg. 
                   It is that dynamic stability and structural strength that makes their products stand out.  How many humans can sling a concrete block like that without falling over?  Big Dog and the other military walkers of BD have magnitudes of stability over tracked or wheeled vehicles on extremely uneven terrain.  I feel that the video was an excellent demonstration of the vehicle's overall potential usefulness in battlefield conditions.
                   Tom C.
                  
                   If it was my design, and knowing BigDog's strength, I would want to demonstrate how strong the unit is. What a simple and clearly demonstrable test. Kind of leaves little doubt. Now what can I use this ability for? Time to imagine. 
                   Save time ..... see it my way. - Jim A
               
                   And while it is difficult to understand the utility of flinging concrete blocks, I found it to be a fantastic demonstration of the dynamic stability of the robot.
               
                   Mark
            • Peter Balch
              ... Absolutely. But we already knew that from the earlier videos: being kicked, slipping on ice, etc. Everyone has to be in awe of what Boston Dynamics is
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 3, 2013
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                > a fantastic demonstration of the dynamic stability of the robot.

                Absolutely. But we already knew that from the earlier videos: being kicked,
                slipping on ice, etc.

                Everyone has to be in awe of what Boston Dynamics is achieving but what they
                release to the media is always pure propaganda. It's not like a university
                project where they tell you in tedious detail what they're doing, how they
                do it and why they did it. It's more like trying to work out what was going
                on in the Soviet Union. I don't believe that's due to military secrecy - the
                military are often very keen to say what they're doing (in order to justify
                the taxpayers' dollars). BigDog is soooo far away from deployment there are
                no technical specs worth stealing. Commercial secrecy? Maybe. But is there
                any suggestion they're going to sell it to anyone else?

                > the L3 is aimed at being able to go places that tracked vehicles cannot
                > A legged robot would have the advantage of being able to navigate
                > over boulders or otherwise rocky terrain which would bog down
                > a tracked vehicle.

                Well, that's the propaganda. But they're nowhere close. IMHO, Jogging on
                flat ground throwing a concrete block is not on the route to picking your
                way down a rocky path in the mountains. Stepping over a log is slightly more
                useful but it's such a puny log it hardly counts. The gait they've chosen
                gives them very little ground clearance.

                And is that gait one you would use on a mountain path? It doesn't seem right
                to me. One can see the pedigree from Raibert's 1986 hopping bot to hopping
                on each corner of a quadruped. It sure looks like the same algorithm. Yes,
                it works in a car park - but on a mountain track? Is there anything that
                suggests that it will ever work? Not that I've seen.

                So why are the trying to "productize" it by building AlphaDog? Why give it
                longer range and greater power when the prototype doesn't do the job it's
                meant to do? It must be propaganda.

                As I say, watching Boston Dynamics is like watching the Soviet Union. The
                crumbs they give us hint at great things. But you wonder what's really going
                on.

                Peter
              • Pete Miles
                Flinging concrete bricks is a great development in dynamic stability control when a heavy load is suddenly removed. Throwing the brick is the easiest thing to
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 3, 2013
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                  Flinging concrete bricks is a great development in dynamic stability control
                  when a heavy load is suddenly removed. Throwing the brick is the easiest thing
                  to do. Not falling over after the release is the major accomplishment.


                  The one thing that is false advertizing (propaganda) is that this device will
                  never be used to help offload weight off the troops. Unless you have been a
                  grunt, you know what I am talking about.

                  The dog is a weapons development platform for autonomous and remote control
                  missions. The general public would have a fit if they knew that the military
                  was building robotic killing machines.

                  People are currently in a panic with the police considering on using drones in
                  the sky, and they are extremely worried about the drones being armed. They are
                  trying to create laws to make this practice illeagal.

                  But the interesting this is that the Predator drone was designed from day one to
                  carry weapons, but was originally deployed as a survalence drone. But when the
                  need came up, the drones were quickly outfitted with the weapons. If the the
                  public was aware of the original purpose, there would have been a much greater
                  outcry.

                  People complain about photo radar or the red light cameras. The complaints are
                  from people intent on breaking the law and don't like impassioned machines
                  catching them, and passing judgement on them and issuing citations.

                  Now think about this. Armed robot dogs patrolling the border and are programmed
                  to kill what ever crossed the border. People would be in an uproar about that.
                  The robodog will execute its task without mercy. It will make no mistakes. It
                  won't consider circumstances leading up to the border crossing. It will just
                  execute it programming. People have compassion and often don't follow orders
                  because they want to understand the circumstances leading up to the violation to
                  self determine if they should carry out their instructions. Machines don't do
                  that.

                  This dog has nothing to do with carrying loads for troups in combat. It is
                  strictly a weapons development platform.

                  And guess what, I am 100% in support of these programs, and I think there needs
                  to be more of them.
                • Max Cato
                  Wow. Either there are some major conspiracy nuts out here, or I must learn the art of trolling from you, wizened master. ________________________________ From:
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 3, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Wow. Either there are some major conspiracy nuts out here, or I must learn the art of trolling from you, wizened master.


                    From: Pete Miles <robots@...>
                    To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 2:03 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] BigDog flinging concrete blocks

                    Flinging concrete bricks is a great development in dynamic stability control
                    when a heavy load is suddenly removed.  Throwing the brick is the easiest thing
                    to do.  Not falling over after the release is the major accomplishment.


                    The one thing that is false advertizing (propaganda) is that this device will
                    never be used to help offload weight off the troops.  Unless you have been a
                    grunt, you know what I am talking about.

                    The dog is a weapons development platform for autonomous and remote control
                    missions.  The general public would have a fit if they knew that the military
                    was building robotic killing machines.

                    People are currently in a panic with the police considering on using drones in
                    the sky, and they are extremely worried about the drones being armed.  They are
                    trying to create laws to make this practice illeagal.

                    But the interesting this is that the Predator drone was designed from day one to
                    carry weapons, but was originally deployed as a survalence drone.  But when the
                    need came up, the drones were quickly outfitted with the weapons.  If the the
                    public was aware of the original purpose, there would have been a much greater
                    outcry.

                    People complain about photo radar or the red light cameras.  The complaints are
                    from people intent on breaking the law and don't like impassioned machines
                    catching them, and passing judgement on them and issuing citations.

                    Now think about this.  Armed robot dogs patrolling the border and are programmed
                    to kill what ever crossed the border.  People would be in an uproar about that.
                    The robodog will execute its task without mercy.  It will make no mistakes.  It
                    won't consider circumstances leading up to the border crossing.  It will just
                    execute it programming.  People have compassion and often don't follow orders
                    because they want to understand the circumstances leading up to the violation to
                    self determine if they should carry out their instructions.  Machines don't do
                    that.

                    This dog has nothing to do with carrying loads for troups in combat.  It is
                    strictly a weapons development platform.

                    And guess what, I am 100% in support of these programs, and I think there needs
                    to be more of them.




                    ------------------------------------

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                  • Pete Miles
                    Grasshopper, when you can get the pebble out of my hand then you will be ready to troll yourself. All you have to do is read the right papers and reports and
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 3, 2013
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                      Grasshopper, when you can get the pebble out of my hand then you will be ready to troll yourself.
                       
                      All you have to do is read the right papers and reports and you will know exactly what I am talking about.
                       
                      Pete 
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Max Cato
                      Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 2:50 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] BigDog flinging concrete blocks

                      Wow. Either there are some major conspiracy nuts out here, or I must learn the art of trolling from you, wizened master.


                      From: Pete Miles <robots@...>
                      To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 2:03 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] BigDog flinging concrete blocks

                      Flinging concrete bricks is a great development in dynamic stability control
                      when a heavy load is suddenly removed.  Throwing the brick is the easiest thing
                      to do.  Not falling over after the release is the major accomplishment.


                      The one thing that is false advertizing (propaganda) is that this device will
                      never be used to help offload weight off the troops.  Unless you have been a
                      grunt, you know what I am talking about.

                      The dog is a weapons development platform for autonomous and remote control
                      missions.  The general public would have a fit if they knew that the military
                      was building robotic killing machines.

                      People are currently in a panic with the police considering on using drones in
                      the sky, and they are extremely worried about the drones being armed.  They are
                      trying to create laws to make this practice illeagal.

                      But the interesting this is that the Predator drone was designed from day one to
                      carry weapons, but was originally deployed as a survalence drone.  But when the
                      need came up, the drones were quickly outfitted with the weapons.  If the the
                      public was aware of the original purpose, there would have been a much greater
                      outcry.

                      People complain about photo radar or the red light cameras.  The complaints are
                      from people intent on breaking the law and don't like impassioned machines
                      catching them, and passing judgement on them and issuing citations.

                      Now think about this.  Armed robot dogs patrolling the border and are programmed
                      to kill what ever crossed the border.  People would be in an uproar about that.
                      The robodog will execute its task without mercy.  It will make no mistakes.  It
                      won't consider circumstances leading up to the border crossing.  It will just
                      execute it programming.  People have compassion and often don't follow orders
                      because they want to understand the circumstances leading up to the violation to
                      self determine if they should carry out their instructions.  Machines don't do
                      that.

                      This dog has nothing to do with carrying loads for troups in combat.  It is
                      strictly a weapons development platform.

                      And guess what, I am 100% in support of these programs, and I think there needs
                      to be more of them.




                      ------------------------------------

                      Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.orgYahoo! Groups Links

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