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Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

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  • Peter Balch
    ... It s amazing it worked _anywhere_. How did it work? AFAIK Stubblefield was experimenting in a rather confused way with standard radio, RF through the soil
    Message 1 of 24 , Nov 30, 2010
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      > Yesterday I couldn't find anything on the WG
      > world of inventions site. The 1900 portable phone
      > was interesting, but no wonder it didn't work in Manahatten.

      It's amazing it worked _anywhere_. How did it work?

      AFAIK Stubblefield was experimenting in a rather confused way with standard
      radio, RF through the soil and straight audio signal through the soil. His
      electrodes sometimes also acted as a simple cell (different metals and the
      ionic solution of the soil). The reconstruction they did on the W&G program
      seemed to just involve simple audio signals. So how did the audio voltages
      spread out from the electrodes? Should the two Tx electrodes point at the Rx
      station or be at right angles? How far apart should they be? Similarly with
      the Rx electrodes. Why didn't the signal just disipate or get shorted out by
      the soil? Does the amplitude drop with distance-squared or just with
      distance (cos it's 2D)? All very odd.

      > Why? wouldn't the jitter just help to average out the local
      > intensity rather than just getting a pixel value, for lowres
      > shouldn't the pixelvalue be averages over the bigger area
      > rather than spot values?

      Maybe, but in a simple robot, you might be looking for changes in the image
      so you can wake up and do something. So I reckon jitter is bad.

      > The Elektor article scheme images have very low-res, like 18x16
      > pixels, rather than 500 across, so trigger jitter wouldn't be an
      > issue. It will probably get very bad as the resolution is increased.

      Depends on how wide the sample window is. Could be a short window followed
      by a long conversion time. If the ADC leaves it's input open all the time
      then successive approximation ADCs go horribly wrong. The cheap PICs all use
      successive approximation but I can't remember whether they take a short
      sample.

      > In my case, where I sampled at 1-Mhz equivalent rate and displayed
      > waveforms up to 100-khz, now I'm not sure why it even worked.
      > 100-khz period is just 10-usec, and 1-usec of jitter would mess
      > it up. I used a 20-mhz PIC with .2-usec instruction time, but to
      > catch a trigger signal in software, I still would have had 0.4- or
      > 0.6-usec of jitter. Hmmm, wonder what I did. Interrupts?

      Nope.Interrupts wouldn't help because the sample time would still be sync'ed
      to the PIC clock.

      I went through that whole thought process then decided that getting a nice
      clean edge was too much trouble and we'd put up with a ragged one. It looks
      really nasty and is a bit embarassing - the final product will cost far more
      than it's worth thanks to low production volume vs. high cost of EMC and ESD
      testing for medical environments.

      Peter
    • David Buckley
      Peter there is a BBC video here http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/23/50-year-old-remote-controlled-robot-made-from-scrap-parts-makes/ How do you download it?
      Message 2 of 24 , Dec 2, 2010
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        Peter
        there is a BBC video here
        How do you download it?
        what stops *Download Helper* or *Fast VideoDownload* in Firefox seeing it?
        There is <embed> code but I can't figure it out.
        David
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:37 AM
        Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

         

        David

        >> Did you see Pilot Officer Sale's "George" robot restored and working on
        >> Wallace and Gromit's World of Invention last week?
        >>
        > No, I don't watch TV, what channel? Can I view old programs?

        It was one of the BBC channels so it ought to be somewhere on BBC iPlayer:

        > what was the episode called? I can only find #4 senses' on BBCiplayer.

        Yes. Me too:
        http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=wallace%20and%20gromit
        That's last Sunday's program (I think it was Sunday).

        But George was on the Robots program on the Sunday before, (I guess #3)
        along with other archive film - the usual 50s, 60s or 70s stuff of how
        robots are soon going to be clearing away the dishes and dusting the house.

        > We do have the Pathe film of George. And we know Tinker didn't survive but
        > I'm not sure if Reuben knows George is still 'alive'.

        It was just as you would hope it would be - Pilot Officer Sale is now well
        into retirement but has George in the back of his garage. After tinkering
        with a screwdriver for a while, George went "walking" off down the street.

        Maybe the Wallace and Gromit's World of Invention website has it somewhere
        http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcone/wallaceandgromit/
        or you could just email the team and ask - they seem like an enthusiastic
        bunch. They also have Roadshows around the country.

        Peter

      • Robin Hewitt
        David, it s not in video-file format; it s a flash-player application. If you only want to put it on your web page, you can use the embed code provided. If you
        Message 3 of 24 , Dec 2, 2010
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          David, it's not in video-file format; it's a flash-player application. If you only want to put it on your web page, you can use the embed code provided. If you want to rip it into, say, mp3 format, you'll need video-ripping software. Google youtube+ripper for more on this. btw, if you do rip it then post online (or otherwise distribute it) in that form, you may be in violation of UK copyright laws.

          - Robin




          From: David Buckley <david@...>
          To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 7:10:31 AM
          Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird



          Peter
          there is a BBC video here
          How do you download it?
          what stops *Download Helper* or *Fast VideoDownload* in Firefox seeing it?
          There is <embed> code but I can't figure it out.
          David
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:37 AM
          Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

           

          David

          >> Did you see Pilot Officer Sale's "George" robot restored and working on
          >> Wallace and Gromit's World of Invention last week?
          >>
          > No, I don't watch TV, what channel? Can I view old programs?

          It was one of the BBC channels so it ought to be somewhere on BBC iPlayer:

          > what was the episode called? I can only find #4 senses' on BBCiplayer.

          Yes. Me too:
          http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=wallace%20and%20gromit
          That's last Sunday's program (I think it was Sunday).

          But George was on the Robots program on the Sunday before, (I guess #3)
          along with other archive film - the usual 50s, 60s or 70s stuff of how
          robots are soon going to be clearing away the dishes and dusting the house.

          > We do have the Pathe film of George. And we know Tinker didn't survive but
          > I'm not sure if Reuben knows George is still 'alive'.

          It was just as you would hope it would be - Pilot Officer Sale is now well
          into retirement but has George in the back of his garage. After tinkering
          with a screwdriver for a while, George went "walking" off down the street.

          Maybe the Wallace and Gromit's World of Invention website has it somewhere
          http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcone/wallaceandgromit/
          or you could just email the team and ask - they seem like an enthusiastic
          bunch. They also have Roadshows around the country.

          Peter




        • David Buckley
          Robin Because videos nearly always plays haltingly (Virgin cable broadband) to watch them I download them using the Download-Helper or FastVideo-Download
          Message 4 of 24 , Dec 2, 2010
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            Robin
            Because videos nearly always plays haltingly (Virgin cable broadband) to watch them I download them using the Download-Helper or FastVideo-Download plugins for Firefox. However some video those plugins won't see.
            That BBC video is embedable, there is a tab giving the embed script so they want people to embed it. I would just like to watch it at leisure. I don't want to distribute it.
            I know there is video-ripping software and most times I don't need it, but I would like to know how it works.
            David
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 7:47 PM
            Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

             


            David, it's not in video-file format; it's a flash-player application. If you only want to put it on your web page, you can use the embed code provided. If you want to rip it into, say, mp3 format, you'll need video-ripping software. Google youtube+ripper for more on this. btw, if you do rip it then post online (or otherwise distribute it) in that form, you may be in violation of UK copyright laws.

            - Robin




            From: David Buckley <david@...>
            To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 7:10:31 AM
            Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird



            Peter
            there is a BBC video here
            How do you download it?
            what stops *Download Helper* or *Fast VideoDownload* in Firefox seeing it?
            There is <embed> code but I can't figure it out.
            David
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:37 AM
            Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

             

            David

            >> Did you see Pilot Officer Sale's "George" robot restored and working on
            >> Wallace and Gromit's World of Invention last week?
            >>
            > No, I don't watch TV, what channel? Can I view old programs?

            It was one of the BBC channels so it ought to be somewhere on BBC iPlayer:

            > what was the episode called? I can only find #4 senses' on BBCiplayer.

            Yes. Me too:
            http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=wallace%20and%20gromit
            That's last Sunday's program (I think it was Sunday).

            But George was on the Robots program on the Sunday before, (I guess #3)
            along with other archive film - the usual 50s, 60s or 70s stuff of how
            robots are soon going to be clearing away the dishes and dusting the house.

            > We do have the Pathe film of George. And we know Tinker didn't survive but
            > I'm not sure if Reuben knows George is still 'alive'.

            It was just as you would hope it would be - Pilot Officer Sale is now well
            into retirement but has George in the back of his garage. After tinkering
            with a screwdriver for a while, George went "walking" off down the street.

            Maybe the Wallace and Gromit's World of Invention website has it somewhere
            http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcone/wallaceandgromit/
            or you could just email the team and ask - they seem like an enthusiastic
            bunch. They also have Roadshows around the country.

            Peter




          • Robin Hewitt
            How does a ripper work? I don t know but if I had to guess, I d guess they download the flash script, parse it, then write a video from that. - Robin
            Message 5 of 24 , Dec 2, 2010
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              How does a ripper work? I don't know but if I had to guess, I'd guess they download the flash script, parse it, then write a video from that.

              - Robin


              From: David Buckley <david@...>
              To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 1:11:07 PM
              Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird



              Robin
              Because videos nearly always plays haltingly (Virgin cable broadband) to watch them I download them using the Download-Helper or FastVideo-Download plugins for Firefox. However some video those plugins won't see.
              That BBC video is embedable, there is a tab giving the embed script so they want people to embed it. I would just like to watch it at leisure. I don't want to distribute it.
              I know there is video-ripping software and most times I don't need it, but I would like to know how it works.
              David
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 7:47 PM
              Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

               


              David, it's not in video-file format; it's a flash-player application. If you only want to put it on your web page, you can use the embed code provided. If you want to rip it into, say, mp3 format, you'll need video-ripping software. Google youtube+ripper for more on this. btw, if you do rip it then post online (or otherwise distribute it) in that form, you may be in violation of UK copyright laws.

              - Robin




              From: David Buckley <david@...>
              To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 7:10:31 AM
              Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird



              Peter
              there is a BBC video here
              How do you download it?
              what stops *Download Helper* or *Fast VideoDownload* in Firefox seeing it?
              There is <embed> code but I can't figure it out.
              David
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:37 AM
              Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

               

              David

              >> Did you see Pilot Officer Sale's "George" robot restored and working on
              >> Wallace and Gromit's World of Invention last week?
              >>
              > No, I don't watch TV, what channel? Can I view old programs?

              It was one of the BBC channels so it ought to be somewhere on BBC iPlayer:

              > what was the episode called? I can only find #4 senses' on BBCiplayer.

              Yes. Me too:
              http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=wallace%20and%20gromit
              That's last Sunday's program (I think it was Sunday).

              But George was on the Robots program on the Sunday before, (I guess #3)
              along with other archive film - the usual 50s, 60s or 70s stuff of how
              robots are soon going to be clearing away the dishes and dusting the house.

              > We do have the Pathe film of George. And we know Tinker didn't survive but
              > I'm not sure if Reuben knows George is still 'alive'.

              It was just as you would hope it would be - Pilot Officer Sale is now well
              into retirement but has George in the back of his garage. After tinkering
              with a screwdriver for a while, George went "walking" off down the street.

              Maybe the Wallace and Gromit's World of Invention website has it somewhere
              http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcone/wallaceandgromit/
              or you could just email the team and ask - they seem like an enthusiastic
              bunch. They also have Roadshows around the country.

              Peter







            • Robin Hewitt
              More downloaders here: http://www.portablefreeware.com/?sc=256 Maybe one of these will work for you? - R ________________________________ From: David Buckley
              Message 6 of 24 , Dec 2, 2010
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                More downloaders here:

                Maybe one of these will work for you?

                - R


                From: David Buckley <david@...>
                To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 1:11:07 PM
                Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird



                Robin
                Because videos nearly always plays haltingly (Virgin cable broadband) to watch them I download them using the Download-Helper or FastVideo-Download plugins for Firefox. However some video those plugins won't see.
                That BBC video is embedable, there is a tab giving the embed script so they want people to embed it. I would just like to watch it at leisure. I don't want to distribute it.
                I know there is video-ripping software and most times I don't need it, but I would like to know how it works.
                David
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 7:47 PM
                Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

                 


                David, it's not in video-file format; it's a flash-player application. If you only want to put it on your web page, you can use the embed code provided. If you want to rip it into, say, mp3 format, you'll need video-ripping software. Google youtube+ripper for more on this. btw, if you do rip it then post online (or otherwise distribute it) in that form, you may be in violation of UK copyright laws.

                - Robin




                From: David Buckley <david@...>
                To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 7:10:31 AM
                Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird



                Peter
                there is a BBC video here
                How do you download it?
                what stops *Download Helper* or *Fast VideoDownload* in Firefox seeing it?
                There is <embed> code but I can't figure it out.
                David
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:37 AM
                Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

                 

                David

                >> Did you see Pilot Officer Sale's "George" robot restored and working on
                >> Wallace and Gromit's World of Invention last week?
                >>
                > No, I don't watch TV, what channel? Can I view old programs?

                It was one of the BBC channels so it ought to be somewhere on BBC iPlayer:

                > what was the episode called? I can only find #4 senses' on BBCiplayer.

                Yes. Me too:
                http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=wallace%20and%20gromit
                That's last Sunday's program (I think it was Sunday).

                But George was on the Robots program on the Sunday before, (I guess #3)
                along with other archive film - the usual 50s, 60s or 70s stuff of how
                robots are soon going to be clearing away the dishes and dusting the house.

                > We do have the Pathe film of George. And we know Tinker didn't survive but
                > I'm not sure if Reuben knows George is still 'alive'.

                It was just as you would hope it would be - Pilot Officer Sale is now well
                into retirement but has George in the back of his garage. After tinkering
                with a screwdriver for a while, George went "walking" off down the street.

                Maybe the Wallace and Gromit's World of Invention website has it somewhere
                http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcone/wallaceandgromit/
                or you could just email the team and ask - they seem like an enthusiastic
                bunch. They also have Roadshows around the country.

                Peter







              • Peter Balch
                David ... I hadn t realised that Sale was the person who s restored Colossus. That s a far more valuable achievement. Peter
                Message 7 of 24 , Dec 2, 2010
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                  David


                  > there is a BBC video here
                  > http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/23/50-year-old-remote-controlled-robot-made-from-scrap-parts-makes/

                  I hadn't realised that Sale was the person who's restored Colossus. That's a
                  far more valuable achievement.

                  Peter
                • David Buckley
                  Peter I think I have just posted you about the video! Yes Sale/Colossus took me by surprise too. Maybe George gets cleaned up and polished now. At least Sale
                  Message 8 of 24 , Dec 2, 2010
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                    Peter
                    I think I have just posted you about the video!
                    Yes Sale/Colossus took me by surprise too.
                    Maybe George gets cleaned up and polished now.
                    At least Sale was honest about the photos being mocked up for the press.
                    Talking of old robots, Alpha is still in existance in a bar, somebody saw it and wrote to Reuben.
                    Gygan is still in existance and was in a London 2nd hand shop a few years ago. They wouldn't tell me who bought it and I guess never passed on my details.
                    Electro we know is (or was) in the Mansfield Museum
                    the list goes on.
                    David
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 10:11 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

                     

                    David

                    > there is a BBC video here
                    > http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/23/50-year-old-remote-controlled-robot-made-from-scrap-parts-makes/

                    I hadn't realised that Sale was the person who's restored Colossus. That's a
                    far more valuable achievement.

                    Peter

                  • dan michaels
                    ... controlled-robot-made-from-scrap-parts-makes/ Funny. Back when I was in high-school, and knew even less than I know now, I built a robot that was very
                    Message 9 of 24 , Dec 2, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, "David Buckley" <david@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Peter
                      > there is a BBC video here
                      >
                      >http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/23/50-year-old-remote-\
                      controlled-robot-made-from-scrap-parts-makes/


                      Funny. Back when I was in high-school, and knew even less than
                      I know now, I built a robot that was very similar in shape and
                      size to George, but never got it to walk. I entered it in the
                      school science fair but it wasn't doing very much. I didn't have
                      the sense to put wheels on the feet. Foo. Too bad I hadn't seen
                      George. No internet back then.

                      [even today, I don't want wheels on my walkers :)]
                    • David Buckley
                      Robin Thanks, look useful will try them. David ... From: Robin Hewitt To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 9:27 PM Subject:
                      Message 10 of 24 , Dec 2, 2010
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                        Robin
                        Thanks, look useful will try them.
                        David
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 9:27 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

                         

                        More downloaders here:

                        Maybe one of these will work for you?

                        - R


                        From: David Buckley <david@...>
                        To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 1:11:07 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird



                        Robin
                        Because videos nearly always plays haltingly (Virgin cable broadband) to watch them I download them using the Download-Helper or FastVideo-Download plugins for Firefox. However some video those plugins won't see.
                        That BBC video is embedable, there is a tab giving the embed script so they want people to embed it. I would just like to watch it at leisure. I don't want to distribute it.
                        I know there is video-ripping software and most times I don't need it, but I would like to know how it works.
                        David
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 7:47 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

                         


                        David, it's not in video-file format; it's a flash-player application. If you only want to put it on your web page, you can use the embed code provided. If you want to rip it into, say, mp3 format, you'll need video-ripping software. Google youtube+ripper for more on this. btw, if you do rip it then post online (or otherwise distribute it) in that form, you may be in violation of UK copyright laws.

                        - Robin




                        From: David Buckley <david@...>
                        To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 7:10:31 AM
                        Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird



                        Peter
                        there is a BBC video here
                        How do you download it?
                        what stops *Download Helper* or *Fast VideoDownload* in Firefox seeing it?
                        There is <embed> code but I can't figure it out.
                        David
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:37 AM
                        Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

                         

                        David

                        >> Did you see Pilot Officer Sale's "George" robot restored and working on
                        >> Wallace and Gromit's World of Invention last week?
                        >>
                        > No, I don't watch TV, what channel? Can I view old programs?

                        It was one of the BBC channels so it ought to be somewhere on BBC iPlayer:

                        > what was the episode called? I can only find #4 senses' on BBCiplayer.

                        Yes. Me too:
                        http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=wallace%20and%20gromit
                        That's last Sunday's program (I think it was Sunday).

                        But George was on the Robots program on the Sunday before, (I guess #3)
                        along with other archive film - the usual 50s, 60s or 70s stuff of how
                        robots are soon going to be clearing away the dishes and dusting the house.

                        > We do have the Pathe film of George. And we know Tinker didn't survive but
                        > I'm not sure if Reuben knows George is still 'alive'.

                        It was just as you would hope it would be - Pilot Officer Sale is now well
                        into retirement but has George in the back of his garage. After tinkering
                        with a screwdriver for a while, George went "walking" off down the street.

                        Maybe the Wallace and Gromit's World of Invention website has it somewhere
                        http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcone/wallaceandgromit/
                        or you could just email the team and ask - they seem like an enthusiastic
                        bunch. They also have Roadshows around the country.

                        Peter







                      • David Buckley
                        rollers are not walkers That is why I have built Peter Holland s Teal but never got around to building his Mr Robotham. ... From: dan michaels To:
                        Message 11 of 24 , Dec 2, 2010
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                          rollers are not walkers
                           
                          That is why I have built Peter Holland's Teal but never got around to building his Mr Robotham.
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 12:47 AM
                          Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Re: History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

                           

                          --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, "David Buckley" <david@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Peter
                          > there is a BBC video here
                          >
                          >http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/23/50-year-old-remote-\
                          controlled-robot-made-from-scrap-parts-makes/


                          Funny. Back when I was in high-school, and knew even less than
                          I know now, I built a robot that was very similar in shape and
                          size to George, but never got it to walk. I entered it in the
                          school science fair but it wasn't doing very much. I didn't have
                          the sense to put wheels on the feet. Foo. Too bad I hadn't seen
                          George. No internet back then.

                          [even today, I don't want wheels on my walkers :)]

                        • robotMaker
                          Did not understand the sentence: That is why I have built Peter Holland s Teal but never got around to building his Mr Robotham. and did a search and found
                          Message 12 of 24 , Dec 2, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Did not understand the sentence:

                            "That is why I have built Peter Holland's Teal but never got around to building his Mr Robotham."

                            and did a search and found this link:

                            http://cyberneticzoo.com/?tag=peter-holland

                            which I found to be a very cool website, and I think that I understand what the sentence means now.

                            Thanx David, the history is inspirational.

                            Cesar

                            --- On Thu, 12/2/10, David Buckley <david@...> wrote:

                            From: David Buckley <david@...>
                            Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: History - 1957 Seged Ladybird
                            To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Thursday, December 2, 2010, 8:31 PM



                            rollers are not walkers
                             
                            That is why I have built Peter Holland's Teal but never got around to building his Mr Robotham.
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 12:47 AM
                            Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Re: History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

                             

                            --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, "David Buckley" <david@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Peter
                            > there is a BBC video here
                            >
                            >http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/23/50-year-old-remote-\
                            controlled-robot-made-from-scrap-parts-makes/


                            Funny. Back when I was in high-school, and knew even less than
                            I know now, I built a robot that was very similar in shape and
                            size to George, but never got it to walk. I entered it in the
                            school science fair but it wasn't doing very much. I didn't have
                            the sense to put wheels on the feet. Foo. Too bad I hadn't seen
                            George. No internet back then.

                            [even today, I don't want wheels on my walkers :)]




                          • Peter Balch
                            ... Is it? Even as a child, I never found these r/c toys inspirational. As far as I could see they were nothing but a distraction from the path to
                            Message 13 of 24 , Dec 3, 2010
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                              > Thanx David, the history is inspirational.

                              Is it? Even as a child, I never found these r/c toys inspirational. As far
                              as I could see they were nothing but a distraction from the path to
                              enlightenment. Competent builders who could have been using their time to
                              try and make real autonomous robots but instead choosing to fool an
                              air-headed public who couldn't spot snake oil and flim-flam.

                              Ah but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

                              Peter
                            • David Buckley
                              Cesar It wasn t very clear! http://www.davidbuckley.net/DB/Teal.htm http://www.davidbuckley.net/DB/HistoryMakers.htm
                              Message 14 of 24 , Dec 3, 2010
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                                Cesar
                                It wasn't very clear!
                                 
                                Peter Holland was apparently hired* as a draughtsman to do the 'how to' sketches for Model Maker which he was very good at.
                                However he did much more than that creating model cars including a palm sized radio controlled on back in the 60s, model boats, aircraft, a series of Space Models (mid 50s) which were vehicles of all descriptions with various forms of propulsion - legs, spoked wheels with no rim as some all terrain robots have today, crawling beams, a vehicle which would maintain its heading while going round obstacles, a boat with a vibrating plate as a fishes tail, Caber another walking beam which in the 70s the Russians announced was a new design for rough terrain (the sketches looked just like PH's)(oh I forgot, at the same time they 'invented' PH's flipper boat as well), All this with electric or rubber power, no electronics
                                He went on to edit 'Radio Control Models and Electronics' and to me was so creative and inspirational.
                                Sadly though his articles and projects were not what the magazine publishers wanted* because they didn't involve the kits sold by their advertisers and the advertisers were not happy.
                                (* private communication with PH about 1980 at the annual International Model Engineer exhibition in London).
                                 
                                His original 1955 (there is a date error in the 1965 article as in the pdf from 'zoo) Mr Robotham was still operational when I spoke with him in ~1980 =25 years old at least. My version of his Teal is now 34 years old and still works. Both were easilly made from balsa, plywood, wire and glue and in fact I made Teal in a hotel room. Try that with CNCed carbon fibre parts.
                                 
                                If the micros we have now had been available when he was in his prime in the 50s and 60s what would he have created, what could he have created.
                                 
                                David
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 5:04 AM
                                Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

                                 


                                Did not understand the sentence:

                                "That is why I have built Peter Holland's Teal but never got around to building his Mr Robotham."

                                and did a search and found this link:

                                http://cyberneticzoo.com/?tag=peter-holland

                                which I found to be a very cool website, and I think that I understand what the sentence means now.

                                Thanx David, the history is inspirational.

                                Cesar

                                --- On Thu, 12/2/10, David Buckley <david@...> wrote:

                                From: David Buckley <david@...>
                                Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: History - 1957 Seged Ladybird
                                To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Thursday, December 2, 2010, 8:31 PM



                                rollers are not walkers
                                 
                                That is why I have built Peter Holland's Teal but never got around to building his Mr Robotham.
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 12:47 AM
                                Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Re: History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

                                 

                                --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, "David Buckley" <david@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Peter
                                > there is a BBC video here
                                >
                                >http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/23/50-year-old-remote-\
                                controlled-robot-made-from-scrap-parts-makes/


                                Funny. Back when I was in high-school, and knew even less than
                                I know now, I built a robot that was very similar in shape and
                                size to George, but never got it to walk. I entered it in the
                                school science fair but it wasn't doing very much. I didn't have
                                the sense to put wheels on the feet. Foo. Too bad I hadn't seen
                                George. No internet back then.

                                [even today, I don't want wheels on my walkers :)]




                              • David Buckley
                                Peter Well in my view most were not rying to fool air headed public, you would have to go to the 70s and later (robot wars) for that. Esmerelda Occultus 1911
                                Message 15 of 24 , Dec 3, 2010
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                                  Peter
                                  Well in my view most were not rying to fool air headed public, you would have to go to the 70s and later (robot wars) for that.
                                  Esmerelda
                                  Occultus 1911 
                                  Alpha 1932
                                  1939 Sparko
                                  etc
                                  were for entertainment
                                  Electro 1937 - see this is what we can do
                                  Grey Walter 1948 - follow me if you can - and even today there are few who understand the underlying operation of Elsie and Elmer and the FoB tortoises.
                                   
                                  Squee 1951 was for entertainment and Edmund C. Berkeley was trying to understand what Grey Walter was doing, he never did understand, you should read all the corespondence. He was making some kind om machine tool and GW was making life.
                                   
                                  > Competant builders !!!!
                                  The later robots were generally made by (under)graduates trying to figure out which end of a soldering iron you should hold.
                                  you should see MM?? in the Vienna museum
                                  its a wonder he didn't stab himself to death while trying to eat with a knife and fork.
                                  The people who saw it just fooled themselves, egged on by the media - listen to Tony Sales' comment on the George photos.
                                   
                                  In the 60s Warwick University reengineered GW's tortoise using transistors (big budget available) but they had no idea what they were doing and ended up with something which worked less well than Norbert Weiner's Moth, 1949, which was no more advanced than the Electric Dog of 1912. The only people fooled were themselves and their professor.
                                   
                                  Peter Hollands creations fooled nobody, he published plans. They were to show that anybody could build marvellous things. And they were probably all built in a rush because they didn't have enough articles for the magazine (been there, done that).
                                   
                                  You have to remember that in those days when a magazine cost 1 shilling, an electric motor of the sort of quality you get in a servo now cost from 10 shillings to 20 pounds (= 400 shillings), and a audio signal transistor cost 9 shillings. I think the Kako toy electric motors from Japan were 2/6 (two shillings and six pense = 2.5 shillings)
                                  In todays prices
                                   - toy electric motor £12.50 
                                   - tin can electric motor £50
                                   - good electric motor £2000
                                   - audio low gain low power transistor £45 [now 15p, you could probably get 2000 now for £45]
                                  There was a surplus ex gyroscope motor - the 5/- motor (3"diax3"long) for 5 shillings about 1958  =>£20
                                   
                                  Then the vehicles or proto robots were autonomus.
                                  Now what do you hear - "I am controlling my robot from my iPhone" with the emphasis being on the 'I am'.
                                  Now that is flim-flam.
                                   
                                  David
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 10:33 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

                                   


                                  > Thanx David, the history is inspirational.

                                  Is it? Even as a child, I never found these r/c toys inspirational. As far
                                  as I could see they were nothing but a distraction from the path to
                                  enlightenment. Competent builders who could have been using their time to
                                  try and make real autonomous robots but instead choosing to fool an
                                  air-headed public who couldn't spot snake oil and flim-flam.

                                  Ah but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

                                  Peter

                                • Peter Balch
                                  David ... Then who were they fooling? Themselves? Lets look at Reuben Hoggett excellent timelines. 1934- Dussaud - Endomechanics : it looks like the earliest
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Dec 4, 2010
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                                    David

                                    > Well in my view most were not rying to fool air headed public,

                                    Then who were they fooling? Themselves?

                                    Lets look at Reuben Hoggett excellent timelines. "1934- Dussaud -
                                    Endomechanics": it looks like the earliest thing that I would call a robot -
                                    autonomous, reacts to sensors, mobile. And possibly "1912 - Seleno, the
                                    Electric Dog" also counts. Certainly by "1948- Grey Walter - ELMER" we have
                                    something that many people would agree was a robot.

                                    But then we look at Reuben's humanoid timeline: from "1927- Herbert Televox
                                    (Westinghouse)" all the way through to "1988- VOR", they're all just r/c
                                    toys.

                                    You have to ask, what were the motives of the people who built them? Their
                                    thoughts must have gone something like "I want a robot. Robots are humanoid.
                                    I don't know how to build a humanoid robot. Therefore I'm going to build
                                    something that looks, externally, like a humanoid robot and pretend to
                                    myself that it really is a humanoid robot." Then they show it off to a
                                    public. Educated people agree to pretend it is a humanoid robot; the rest
                                    think it really is.

                                    At no point are is anyone building anything that advances robotics. It's all
                                    flim-flam.

                                    You could perhaps argue that some were building in order to learn. Good for
                                    them. But in that case, you don't phone up the press and TV.

                                    On the face of it, one could level similar criticisms at Asimo and BigDog.
                                    They're fake robots. But developing the technology needed to make them work
                                    is very relevant to the advance of robotics. (Maybe.)

                                    Peter
                                  • David Buckley
                                    You got it in one - themselves most of the time - it is called play Herbert Televox was advertising an add-on to a telephone, nobody would imagine a cardboard
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Dec 4, 2010
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                                      You got it in one - themselves most of the time - it is called play
                                       
                                      Herbert Televox was advertising an add-on to a telephone, nobody would imagine a cardboard cut out was going to do the dishes although according to my mother it was considered back then that such machines were just around the corner.
                                      RUR-1921 took the world by storm and in the 20s the play was put on in my mothers school ( I can't remember what part she played) and 'soon' everybody would be eating pills for lunch.
                                       
                                      Elektro-1937 was then 'state of the art' advertising Westinghouse - I don't think there were any claims it would 'do the dishes'.
                                       
                                      Nobody back in 1948 would have classified Elmer and Elsie as a robot, especially the scientific community. Robots in the main were by implication humanoid and when robot arms came along robots did tasks.
                                       
                                      Apart from the show robots like Alpha and advertising mock-ups like Televox people were doing the best they knew how, Even Eric-1928 wasn't fooling anybody just as the B9s and R2D2s and model aeroplanes and boats and cars aren't fooling anyone.
                                      People are using the resources they have to get as close as they can to some ideal state.
                                      Running an RC 4x4 over the lawn is fun, I would quite like to really take my Jeep off road, however if I smash up or simply overturn an rc 4x4 it is no big deal, it is within my resources, if I were to do that with my Jeep then it would be beyond my resources because not only would there be the cost but also the time and effort involved and for the twenty minutes of fun definitely not resource effective.
                                       
                                      About the only people seriously deluded and deluding are the university researchers creating projects to get grants so they can write papers to be peer reviewed and published to get grants for more projects. Most of the papers have no real content and the worst end up in peer reviewed pay to view journals. Not only that they are so dismissive of what is done outside their enclave, listen to them - *Oh the Japanes they just copy things don't they* or especially about the RoboOne robots - *they are just toys*.
                                      For Britain two of the most hyped robotics projects in the last twenty years have been Robug and the Salford Lady neither of which worked. Neither of them worked because their builders had never played so they had no experience of mass, inertia, sizing actuators, you name it. 
                                       
                                      There is a move now away from autonomy to fancier ways of remote control, including a human in the control loop, there is the flimflam thinking. So what if your iPhone has an accelerometer senising the phones angle and sending that to the robot, it is just another way of doing a joystick (interesting how such a racey phrase turned into everyday usage).
                                      There are other ways - the videos of the acrobatic quadcopters show that.
                                       
                                      I think you are looking at robots the same way people look at Ai - if we know how to write the program to do it, it is not Ai.
                                       
                                      Based on that view we will never have real robots, ever! And if that's the case why bother.
                                       
                                      However it is part of human nature to be creative and to explore possibilities, to play and to fail and to play and to succeed. and so what if some people think it is magic, it is.
                                       
                                      David
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 12:16 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: History - 1957 Seged Ladybird

                                       

                                      David

                                      > Well in my view most were not rying to fool air headed public,

                                      Then who were they fooling? Themselves?

                                      Lets look at Reuben Hoggett excellent timelines. "1934- Dussaud -
                                      Endomechanics": it looks like the earliest thing that I would call a robot -
                                      autonomous, reacts to sensors, mobile. And possibly "1912 - Seleno, the
                                      Electric Dog" also counts. Certainly by "1948- Grey Walter - ELMER" we have
                                      something that many people would agree was a robot.

                                      But then we look at Reuben's humanoid timeline: from "1927- Herbert Televox
                                      (Westinghouse)" all the way through to "1988- VOR", they're all just r/c
                                      toys.

                                      You have to ask, what were the motives of the people who built them? Their
                                      thoughts must have gone something like "I want a robot. Robots are humanoid.
                                      I don't know how to build a humanoid robot. Therefore I'm going to build
                                      something that looks, externally, like a humanoid robot and pretend to
                                      myself that it really is a humanoid robot." Then they show it off to a
                                      public. Educated people agree to pretend it is a humanoid robot; the rest
                                      think it really is.

                                      At no point are is anyone building anything that advances robotics. It's all
                                      flim-flam.

                                      You could perhaps argue that some were building in order to learn. Good for
                                      them. But in that case, you don't phone up the press and TV.

                                      On the face of it, one could level similar criticisms at Asimo and BigDog.
                                      They're fake robots. But developing the technology needed to make them work
                                      is very relevant to the advance of robotics. (Maybe.)

                                      Peter

                                    • dan michaels
                                      ... I just see this stuff as part and parcel of history. Technology is evolutionary, the latter builds on the former. [eg, had I seen the George robot when
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Dec 4, 2010
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                                        --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Balch" <peterbalch@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > David
                                        >
                                        > > Well in my view most were not rying to fool air headed public,
                                        >
                                        > Then who were they fooling? Themselves?
                                        >


                                        I just see this stuff as part and parcel of history. Technology
                                        is evolutionary, the latter builds on the former. [eg, had I
                                        seen the George robot when back in high-school, my own poor
                                        attempt at building a robot, whimsical as it was, might have been
                                        better].

                                        "If a monkey's reach can't exceed his grasp, then what's a heaven
                                        for?"


                                        >
                                        > Lets look at Reuben Hoggett excellent timelines. "1934- Dussaud -
                                        > Endomechanics": it looks like the earliest thing that I would call a robot - > autonomous, reacts to sensors, mobile. And possibly "1912 - Seleno, the > Electric Dog" also counts. Certainly by "1948- Grey Walter - ELMER" we have > something that many people would agree was a robot.
                                        >
                                        > But then we look at Reuben's humanoid timeline: from "1927- Herbert Televox > (Westinghouse)" all the way through to "1988- VOR", they're all just r/c > toys.
                                        >
                                        > You have to ask, what were the motives of the people who built them? Their > thoughts must have gone something like "I want a robot. Robots are humanoid. > I don't know how to build a humanoid robot. Therefore I'm going to build > something that looks, externally, like a humanoid robot and pretend to > myself that it really is a humanoid robot." Then they show it off to a > public. Educated people agree to pretend it is a humanoid robot; the rest > think it really is.
                                        >
                                        > At no point are is anyone building anything that advances robotics. It's all > flim-flam.
                                        >
                                        > You could perhaps argue that some were building in order to learn. Good for > them. But in that case, you don't phone up the press and TV.
                                        >
                                        > On the face of it, one could level similar criticisms at Asimo and BigDog. > They're fake robots. But developing the technology needed to make them work > is very relevant to the advance of robotics. (Maybe.)
                                        >
                                        > Peter
                                        >
                                      • dan michaels
                                        ... You hit the nail on the head-head-head with your comments about grants and peer-reviewed papers [make a nice topic for a blog, hint]. I ve read many 100s
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Dec 4, 2010
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                                          --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, "David Buckley" <david@...> wrote:
                                          >


                                          You hit the nail on the head-head-head with your comments about
                                          grants and peer-reviewed papers [make a nice topic for a blog,
                                          hint]. I've read many 100s of papers, and certainly 98% or more
                                          just aren't advancing anything of any note, except the size of
                                          the writer's curriculum vitae.

                                          For Britain, probably the worst was Owen Holland writing grants
                                          to (a) design so-called "conscious robots", and in the end, coming
                                          up with some flukey test to (b) "tell if a robot is conscious".
                                          The Turing Test for Robotic Consciousness. Give me a brake [no
                                          pun intended]. (a) and (b) are so far apart there're not even
                                          in the same universe.

                                          On and on.


                                          .........
                                          >
                                          > About the only people seriously deluded and deluding are the university researchers creating projects to get grants so they can write papers to be peer reviewed and published to get grants for more projects. Most of the papers have no real content and the worst end up in peer reviewed pay to view journals. Not only that they are so dismissive of what is done outside their enclave, listen to them - *Oh the Japanes they just copy things don't they* or especially about the RoboOne robots - *they are just toys*.
                                          > For Britain two of the most hyped robotics projects in the last twenty years have been Robug and the Salford Lady neither of which worked. Neither of them worked because their builders had never played so they had no experience of mass, inertia, sizing actuators, you name it.
                                          >
                                          ........
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