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Re: Re: [SeattleRobotics] ir cameras

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  • Howard Toburen
    Just to be definitive here... A near IR system would not be able to look at a body and tell if it was alive and radiating at 98.6 or thereabouts? SO I
    Message 1 of 35 , Dec 1, 2006
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      Just to be definitive here... A "near IR" system would not be able to look at
      a body and tell if it was alive and radiating at 98.6 or thereabouts? SO I
      will have to use something like a sensor that can be aimed at the body?


      --- Kipton Moravec <kip@...> wrote:

      > All infrared's are not the same.
      >
      > There are three "IR bands"
      >
      > Near Infrared is just below red in the color spectrum. Most CCD cameras
      > can see in this band. As a result they put a filter on the camera to
      > block this near infrared. Then they remove the filter, illuminate the
      > image with a near IR LED which your eyes can not see, and call it night
      > camera.
      >
      > Mid-wave IR is in the 3-5 micron wave length. This can see without any
      > illumination. It is tuned best for objects that are very hot, but works
      > well at room temperatures.
      >
      > Long-wave IR is in the 8-12 or 8-14 micron wave length. This can see
      > without any illumination. This is the best for room temperature objects,
      > but can see hot objects well too.
      >
      > The problem with the Mid-wave and Long-wave IR is they are reflected by
      > glass. (That is how the greenhouse works.) So you can't make the lenses
      > out of glass. The best material is germanium, but it is expensive. The
      > Cadillac used a special plastic lens that was developed specifically for
      > Long-wave IR.
      >
      > The other issue is that to be really sensitive most IR detectors are
      > cryrogenically cooled, and the cooling systems are expensive and heavy.
      > Texas Instruments discovered a way to sense IR without the cooling in
      > 1977. They took it to the Army to see if the Army would help fund
      > development of the sensor, and the Army immediately classified it, and
      > would not give much development money. So not much happened for about 15
      > YEARS (!!??), because the Army would not fund the development, and TI
      > would not fund development because they could not sell it in quantity to
      > pay for the development if it was classified. Now there are other
      > techniques to detect IR uncooled.
      >
      > All the cheap "IR" systems are Near IR, use cheaper CCD cameras, and
      > illuminate with IR LEDs.
      >
      > Kip
      >
      > On Wed, 2006-11-29 at 13:50 -0800, Howard Toburen wrote:
      > > I did some research and Cadillac still makes them. The feature is called
      > night
      > > vision. Unfortunately we have no Cadillac dealer here and there are no
      > > cadillacs in the junk yard.
      > >
      > > But I discovered that there are back up night vision systems on several
      > > different types of cars. SUpposedly infrared and quite cheap. THe whole
      > thing
      > > under a hundred bucks.. with color didsplay screens. It is so nasty here
      > that
      > > I have been trying to get home before dark, so I have not gotten a demo,
      > but I
      > > am quite encouraged. Just got to shop like crazy and keep at it!
      > >
      > > ht
      > >
      > > --- benedict-list@... wrote:
      > >
      > > > If you can recognize a body as a body using visible, you can likely adapt
      >
      > > > a handheld non-contact thermometer to your purpose. Most of these come
      > > > with spotting lasers, so the measurement zone would show up on your
      > > > visible camera as a red spot, and you can get a surface temp back. Take
      > > > measurements of the intended target, take measurements of the background
      > > > (way off intended target) and take a delta. You should be able to tell
      > if
      > > > it's radiating, and the cost of those thermometers is a lot less than an
      > > > IR camera.
      > > >
      > > > That is if you can use a visible camera... some applications you don't
      > > > have ambient light available.
      > > >
      > > > Tom
      > > >
      > > > On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Howard Toburen wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > But my reason for using IR is to be able to look at a body and know if
      > it
      > > > is
      > > > > alive and thus radiating. not really to see in the dark as my rover
      > will
      > > > have
      > > > > lights. maybe ir lights if they are most efficient. I may even have
      > dual
      > > > > cameras but I just need the ir for that and perhaps locating a warm
      > source.
      > > > > --- SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com <palmisano@...> wrote:
      > > > >> most cheap black and white cameras detect infrared light. it will also
      > > > >> include visible light, though, if that is a problem . . . its common
      > to
      > > > use
      > > > >> infrared flashlights mounted on black and white cameras for infrared
      > > > >> filming.
      > > > >>
      > > > >> john
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >> 2006/11/20, Kipton Moravec <kip@...>:
      > > > >>>
      > > > >>> That is about right for a 3-5 micron (medium wave) or 8-12 micron
      > (long
      > > > >>> wave) IR in qty 1. You might continue looking and you may find
      > > > >>> something near $8,000 but $10,000 is not out of the price range. A
      > lot
      > > > >>> of expensive parts.
      > > > >>>
      > > > >>> You may want to look at the long wave IR camera in the Cadillac. They
      > > > >>> were trying to get that under $2500 last I looked. (Which has been a
      > few
      > > > >>> years.)
      > > > >>>
      > > > >>> Kip
      > > > >>>
      > > > >>> On Mon, 2006-11-20 at 01:29 -0800, Howard Toburen wrote:
      > > > >>>> I asked one vendor about ir cameras.. Which is to say thermal
      > cameras
      > > > >>> capable
      > > > >>>> of detecting body heat and got back a quote of ten thou. (with NTSC
      > > > >>> output)
      > > > >>>> anyone got any ideas of less pricy sources?
      > > > >>>>
      > > > >>>>
      > > > >>>>
      > > > >>>>
      > > > >>>>
      > > > >>>> __________________________________________________________
      > > > >>>> Sponsored Link
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      > > > >>>>
      > > > >>>>
      > > > >>>> Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
      > > > >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > >>>>
      > > > >>>>
      > > > >>>>
      > > > >>>>
      > > > >>> --
      > > > >>> Kipton Moravec <kip@... <kip%40kdream.com>>
      > > > >>>
      > > > >>>
      > > > >>>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >> Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
      > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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      > >
      > > Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > --
      > Kipton Moravec <kip@...>
      >
      >
      >
      > Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >






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    • Kipton Moravec
      ... That is correct. The other two bands can do it. The longwave IR is better. Kip -- Kipton Moravec
      Message 35 of 35 , Dec 1, 2006
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        On Fri, 2006-12-01 at 15:24 -0800, Howard Toburen wrote:
        > Just to be definitive here... A "near IR" system would not be able to look at
        > a body and tell if it was alive and radiating at 98.6 or thereabouts? SO I
        > will have to use something like a sensor that can be aimed at the body?
        >

        That is correct.

        The other two bands can do it. The longwave IR is better.

        Kip
        --
        Kipton Moravec <kip@...>
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