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Best of the best

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  • Dan Gates
    I ve often wondered who s really the best of the best in mini sumo, and standard events leave a lot to be desired in this area. For one, many competitors never
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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      I've often wondered who's really the best of the best in mini sumo,
      and standard events leave a lot to be desired in this area. For one,
      many competitors never even go up against one another. Any given sumo
      robot could kick butt against every competitor it meets and make its
      way all the way to the top, but if along the way it never goes against
      a few robots that, though having other weaknesses, would inevitably
      concure it, then how can it be said that it's the best.
      I for one would like to know exactly who I can beat and who I can't.
      I've traveled to many events in hopes to test my witts against a
      certain competitor only to miss the chance because mine was never
      paired with theirs. This is most discouraging and leaves me wondering
      if those who have been winning are really the best of the best.

      This lead me to another dilema that has perplexed me for three years
      now. Many attendees of the events I've participated in have left
      feeling jipped that they missed the competition they came to see by a
      matter of an hour or so. I've been approached several times at
      RoboMaxx and asked if we'll be doing more mini sumo (or whatever)
      before the day is out.
      It seems to me that the crowd would feel more fulfilled if they could
      come at any time during the event and see what they had hoped to.

      As it turns out, there is a simple solution that addresses both
      problems. What we plan to do this year at RoboMaxx is to make every
      competition (except Open Class) an all day Round Robin style
      challenge. We'll set each event in it's own booth so-to-speak,
      mini-sumo being in the center, and every enterant will go up against
      every other in it's class including paring beginners with advanced for
      the first part. Then depending on how many wins each robot takes, we
      will take the top 6 from beginner and top 6 from advanced to top off
      the day with a single elimination finally. The top three will receive
      prizes and trophies as usual. This also pertains to line following,
      maze solving, micro and nano.

      What we will find out in the end is who is really the best of the
      best in every area of expertease. Not only will we know who's the
      fastest and strongest, but we'll know who's holds together best, who's
      maintains power longest, who's programming is better adept, and a
      miriade of other things (of course you can switch batteries and do
      repairs throughout, but some may exhaust their resources).

      There are a lot of fine details, but this is the jist of it.
      So what do you say... do you want to know once and for all who's the
      best of the best amoung those who attend? Talk about bragging rights!

      -Dan
    • Richard L. Bodor
      You could have said something to the organizers of the event along the lines of, I want to compete with (fill in the blank). At our 2004 Robot Rally©
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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        You could have said something to the organizers of the event along the lines of,
        "I want to compete with (fill in the blank). At our 2004 Robot Rally© (pictures:
        http://www.botlanta.org/rally2004/index.html) an entrant came from Texas to
        compete in mini-sumo. He specifically asked the event committee if a particular
        sumo bot would compete (Dale Heatherington's Delta Force). As it turns out, the
        bot in question had retired, but we contacted the builder and had an exhibition
        match after the regular competition. This was due to the generosity of the
        builder and his inherent sense of sportsmanship (characteristics that I find
        common to robot builders).

        I understand that there are competitors that feel that the rules are arbitrary
        and unfair - I heard much the same at the recent Olympics. But I feel the best
        solution may be to mention it to the dedicated and hard working people that put
        on these events. Your smartest move was to state your point of view in a public
        forum.

        I can't speak for Robothon nor RoboMaxx, but I suspect that they would bend over
        backwards to make sure that every contestant feels that the competition is fair
        and impartial and truly rewards the "best of the best". I personally do not
        believe that an all day competition similar to the one you outline below would
        necessarily uncover the best robot, but we are willing to entertain suggestions
        and will be watching the results to judge your efforts. We use a double
        elimination technique that has had few problems and I consistently get opposite
        feedback from that stated below. We also maintain a "three-ring circus" format
        that rotates the type of competition so that there is a mini-sumo from the
        beginning to the end of our event. We also keep a copy of the rules available,
        have a judge's table for registration of complaints, and talk to our competitors
        before and after every event to make sure they are ready to compete. I am
        convinced that we do determine which bot is the "best" and doubt the veracity of
        your claim.

        Good luck with your event.

        Richard Bodor
        Event Coordinator
        Atlanta Hobby Robot Club
        "The Oldest Robot Club in the U.S."
        www.botlanta.org

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Dan Gates" <topazx2@...>
        To: <SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:14 PM
        Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Best of the best


        : I've often wondered who's really the best of the best in mini sumo,
        : and standard events leave a lot to be desired in this area. For one,
        : many competitors never even go up against one another. Any given sumo
        : robot could kick butt against every competitor it meets and make its
        : way all the way to the top, but if along the way it never goes against
        : a few robots that, though having other weaknesses, would inevitably
        : concure it, then how can it be said that it's the best.
        : I for one would like to know exactly who I can beat and who I can't.
        : I've traveled to many events in hopes to test my witts against a
        : certain competitor only to miss the chance because mine was never
        : paired with theirs. This is most discouraging and leaves me wondering
        : if those who have been winning are really the best of the best.
        :
        : This lead me to another dilema that has perplexed me for three years
        : now. Many attendees of the events I've participated in have left
        : feeling jipped that they missed the competition they came to see by a
        : matter of an hour or so. I've been approached several times at
        : RoboMaxx and asked if we'll be doing more mini sumo (or whatever)
        : before the day is out.
        : It seems to me that the crowd would feel more fulfilled if they could
        : come at any time during the event and see what they had hoped to.
        :
        : As it turns out, there is a simple solution that addresses both
        : problems. What we plan to do this year at RoboMaxx is to make every
        : competition (except Open Class) an all day Round Robin style
        : challenge. We'll set each event in it's own booth so-to-speak,
        : mini-sumo being in the center, and every enterant will go up against
        : every other in it's class including paring beginners with advanced for
        : the first part. Then depending on how many wins each robot takes, we
        : will take the top 6 from beginner and top 6 from advanced to top off
        : the day with a single elimination finally. The top three will receive
        : prizes and trophies as usual. This also pertains to line following,
        : maze solving, micro and nano.
        :
        : What we will find out in the end is who is really the best of the
        : best in every area of expertease. Not only will we know who's the
        : fastest and strongest, but we'll know who's holds together best, who's
        : maintains power longest, who's programming is better adept, and a
        : miriade of other things (of course you can switch batteries and do
        : repairs throughout, but some may exhaust their resources).
        :
        : There are a lot of fine details, but this is the jist of it.
        : So what do you say... do you want to know once and for all who's the
        : best of the best amoung those who attend? Talk about bragging rights!
        :
        : -Dan
        :
        :
        :
        :
        : Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
        : Yahoo! Groups Links
        :
        :
        :
        :
        :
        :
      • Mr S
        ... There are obviously many opinions on how to determine the best in any contest, and the way the rules are implemented on the day of the contest. I have once
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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          --- "Richard L. Bodor" <Richard_L_Bodor@...>
          wrote:

          > You could have said something to the organizers of
          > the event along the lines of,
          > "I want to compete with (fill in the blank).
          > I understand that there are competitors that feel
          > that the rules are arbitrary
          > and unfair - I heard much the same at the recent
          > Olympics. But I feel the best
          > solution may be to mention it to the dedicated and
          > hard working people that put
          > on these events. Your smartest move was to state
          > your point of view in a public
          > forum.
          >
          > I can't speak for Robothon nor RoboMaxx, but I
          > suspect that they would bend over
          > backwards to make sure that every contestant feels
          > that the competition is fair
          > and impartial and truly rewards the "best of the
          > best". I personally do not
          > believe that an all day competition similar to the
          > one you outline below would
          > necessarily uncover the best robot, but we are
          > willing to entertain suggestions
          > and will be watching the results to judge your
          > efforts. We use a double
          > elimination technique that has had few problems and
          > I consistently get opposite
          > feedback from that stated below. We also maintain a
          > "three-ring circus" format
          > that rotates the type of competition so that there
          > is a mini-sumo from the
          > beginning to the end of our event. We also keep a
          > copy of the rules available,
          > have a judge's table for registration of complaints,
          > and talk to our competitors
          > before and after every event to make sure they are
          > ready to compete. I am
          > convinced that we do determine which bot is the
          > "best" and doubt the veracity of
          > your claim.

          There are obviously many opinions on how to determine
          the best in any contest, and the way the rules are
          implemented on the day of the contest. I have once
          been a judge, and I have a couple of comments on the
          whole issue of best of best, and how rules are made
          and used in such contests.

          Think of the superbowl or world series... each of
          these are multiple rounds of elimination trials where
          a single defeat or even double elimination does not
          decide the winner or loser. This extended competition
          allows for averaging and point keeping so that it is
          possible to determine the 'best of the best' kind of
          annotation.

          In ANY event where there is but one day of
          competition, the winners are those that came, saw, and
          conquered. They were ready to perform, they did
          perform, and did so with the least errors, the fastest
          times etc. That is the point... you get one shot,
          until the next contest :)

          If anyone is truly interested in claiming the best of
          the best title for any given competition, I think it
          would be on their shoulders to sponsor the competition
          as it would necessarily have to be an extended
          competition, of months or years, not a day. To say you
          are the best of the best, but haven't competed
          nationwide means nothing...

          It is taxing enough on volunteers and non-profit
          organizations to organize the one day competitions. It
          would be a huge burden to sponsor and manage a
          competition of wider ranging scope.

          If anyone truly wants the title of the best of the
          best, I'd dare them to show up at various competitions
          across the country and offer $50 or more for anyone in
          their class that can beat their bot 4 out of 7
          matches. That would give you bragging rights.

          An admirable goal, but not one that I would saddle
          volunteers and clubs with. The huge effort required by
          organizers just so you can have bragging rights is
          simply not justifiable.

          Also, one might ask.. best of the best of what? If its
          the best of the best of one clubs competition, that is
          not saying anything different than getting first
          place. If you haven't won first place yet, practice,
          practice, practice... you'll get there.

          For me, it is more gratifying to see young engineers
          competing than to win. An 8 year old, with all of
          their parents help, squeaks into 3rd place in any
          category and wins something makes the entire club a
          winner. That is the point of the competitions in my
          view.

          If you want bragging rights, offer your own prize, and
          I'm sure there will be people that will take you up on
          the challenge. This is how I believe that prize
          fighting got its start in North America. Surely that
          model would work again. The Japanese are using it for
          their version of sumo. Certainly, if you beat the
          Japanese at sumo, you would have bragging rights.

          Just part of my view on bragging rights and robotics
          club competitions...

          Cheers

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com
        • Dan Gates
          I wonder if you caught the fact that I am the coordinator of RoboMaxx, we surely would have in the past made arrangments for competitors to go against their
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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            I wonder if you caught the fact that I am the coordinator of RoboMaxx,
            we surely would have in the past made arrangments for competitors to
            go against their choice, but that is not the point here.
            My point is that I think many competitors would like to have the
            chance to compete against every entrant for many reasons. Most of all
            it gives you a better chance to identify your weeknesses and become a
            better bot designer.
            Everyone including us at RoboMaxx uses the Double elimination method,
            I don't think it's a bad method, just not an exhastive one. We put on
            a two day event here which seems to be the trend now and one of the
            things we have determined to be important is making the event fun for
            the spectator as well as the competitor. Spectators want to see lots
            of various robots, and in our "fast food" "ADD' society, a one comp at
            a time approach doesn't hold interest. Your choice of comp anytime of
            the day does!
            RoboDex in Japan uses a similar approach as we will be trying where
            competitions and demos are going on continuously through out the day.
            We will of course continue using the standard NWRST rule set, but in
            a round robin style rather than double elimination.
            The popular battlebots used the Round Robin style as well and did
            very good with it. When you made the finals in Battlebots, you knew it
            was because you were the best of the best.
            Being Best of the best doesn't appeal to me, I rarely even compete
            anymore, but I think it does to some and like I said, it's really
            about testing your skills against as many competitors as possible in
            order to improve.
            -Dan



            --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, "Richard L. Bodor"
            <Richard_L_Bodor@h...> wrote:
            > You could have said something to the organizers of the event along
            the lines of,
            > "I want to compete with (fill in the blank). At our 2004 Robot
            Rally© (pictures:
            > http://www.botlanta.org/rally2004/index.html) an entrant came from
            Texas to
            > compete in mini-sumo. He specifically asked the event committee if a
            particular
            > sumo bot would compete (Dale Heatherington's Delta Force). As it
            turns out, the
            > bot in question had retired, but we contacted the builder and had an
            exhibition
            > match after the regular competition. This was due to the generosity
            of the
            > builder and his inherent sense of sportsmanship (characteristics
            that I find
            > common to robot builders).
            >
            > I understand that there are competitors that feel that the rules are
            arbitrary
            > and unfair - I heard much the same at the recent Olympics. But I
            feel the best
            > solution may be to mention it to the dedicated and hard working
            people that put
            > on these events. Your smartest move was to state your point of view
            in a public
            > forum.
            >
            > I can't speak for Robothon nor RoboMaxx, but I suspect that they
            would bend over
            > backwards to make sure that every contestant feels that the
            competition is fair
            > and impartial and truly rewards the "best of the best". I personally
            do not
            > believe that an all day competition similar to the one you outline
            below would
            > necessarily uncover the best robot, but we are willing to entertain
            suggestions
            > and will be watching the results to judge your efforts. We use a double
            > elimination technique that has had few problems and I consistently
            get opposite
            > feedback from that stated below. We also maintain a "three-ring
            circus" format
            > that rotates the type of competition so that there is a mini-sumo
            from the
            > beginning to the end of our event. We also keep a copy of the rules
            available,
            > have a judge's table for registration of complaints, and talk to our
            competitors
            > before and after every event to make sure they are ready to compete.
            I am
            > convinced that we do determine which bot is the "best" and doubt the
            veracity of
            > your claim.
            >
            > Good luck with your event.
            >
            > Richard Bodor
            > Event Coordinator
            > Atlanta Hobby Robot Club
            > "The Oldest Robot Club in the U.S."
            > www.botlanta.org
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Dan Gates" <topazx2@y...>
            > To: <SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:14 PM
            > Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Best of the best
            >
            >
            > : I've often wondered who's really the best of the best in mini sumo,
            > : and standard events leave a lot to be desired in this area. For one,
            > : many competitors never even go up against one another. Any given sumo
            > : robot could kick butt against every competitor it meets and make its
            > : way all the way to the top, but if along the way it never goes against
            > : a few robots that, though having other weaknesses, would inevitably
            > : concure it, then how can it be said that it's the best.
            > : I for one would like to know exactly who I can beat and who I can't.
            > : I've traveled to many events in hopes to test my witts against a
            > : certain competitor only to miss the chance because mine was never
            > : paired with theirs. This is most discouraging and leaves me wondering
            > : if those who have been winning are really the best of the best.
            > :
            > : This lead me to another dilema that has perplexed me for three years
            > : now. Many attendees of the events I've participated in have left
            > : feeling jipped that they missed the competition they came to see by a
            > : matter of an hour or so. I've been approached several times at
            > : RoboMaxx and asked if we'll be doing more mini sumo (or whatever)
            > : before the day is out.
            > : It seems to me that the crowd would feel more fulfilled if they could
            > : come at any time during the event and see what they had hoped to.
            > :
            > : As it turns out, there is a simple solution that addresses both
            > : problems. What we plan to do this year at RoboMaxx is to make every
            > : competition (except Open Class) an all day Round Robin style
            > : challenge. We'll set each event in it's own booth so-to-speak,
            > : mini-sumo being in the center, and every enterant will go up against
            > : every other in it's class including paring beginners with advanced for
            > : the first part. Then depending on how many wins each robot takes, we
            > : will take the top 6 from beginner and top 6 from advanced to top off
            > : the day with a single elimination finally. The top three will receive
            > : prizes and trophies as usual. This also pertains to line following,
            > : maze solving, micro and nano.
            > :
            > : What we will find out in the end is who is really the best of the
            > : best in every area of expertease. Not only will we know who's the
            > : fastest and strongest, but we'll know who's holds together best, who's
            > : maintains power longest, who's programming is better adept, and a
            > : miriade of other things (of course you can switch batteries and do
            > : repairs throughout, but some may exhaust their resources).
            > :
            > : There are a lot of fine details, but this is the jist of it.
            > : So what do you say... do you want to know once and for all who's the
            > : best of the best amoung those who attend? Talk about bragging rights!
            > :
            > : -Dan
            > :
            > :
            > :
            > :
            > : Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
            > : Yahoo! Groups Links
            > :
            > :
            > :
            > :
            > :
            > :
          • Dave Hylands
            And you still wind up with scenarios like what happened at the 2002 Robothon: Marauder defeats RAM RAM defeats Goliath Goliath defeats Marauder As it turns
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 2, 2004
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              And you still wind up with scenarios like what happened at the 2002
              Robothon:

              Marauder defeats RAM
              RAM defeats Goliath
              Goliath defeats Marauder

              As it turns out, Nemesis beat them all, so 1st place was uncontested.
              2nd place was determined by the order of the bouts (and happened to go
              to Marauder because Marauder lost last), which is more of a chance
              thing. It was really a 3-way tie in my mind.

              I agree that having more bouts would be good, although doing round-robin
              with 40 entrants (as there was in 2002) would probably take more than
              all day.

              At the WCRG, each bot gets 3 rounds. Each round is with a different bot.
              The top 8 bots from these rounds (typically the undefeated bots) go into
              the finals, which is double elimination. This way, every competitor is
              guaranteed at least 3 matches.

              --
              Dave Hylands
              Vancouver, BC, Canada
              http://www.DaveHylands.com/
            • Richard L. Bodor
              After re-reading the original post, it is now unclear why you are bringing this up in this forum. If your point is that you believe that competitors would like
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 2, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                After re-reading the original post, it is now unclear why you are bringing this
                up in this forum.

                If your point is that you believe that competitors would like to have the chance
                to go against every other competitor, you have left me unconvinced - I prefer
                actual evidence over feelings, but that is just my own bias. If one of your
                competitors actually says that they want to be "best of the best" I am sure you
                will suggest that they travel to other events and start collecting trophies.

                As far as the entertainment aspect of these events, we will not be changing our
                event to appeal to the "fast food ADD society" (sic) spectator. I was unable to
                get to (or even find) the robomaxx web page to see how you have adjusted your
                rules, if at all.

                Again, good luck with your event.

                Richard Bodor
                Event Coordinator
                Atlanta Hobby Robot Club
                "The Oldest Robot Club in the U.S."
                www.botlanta.org



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Dan Gates" <topazx2@...>
                To: <SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 1:29 AM
                Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Re: Best of the best


                I wonder if you caught the fact that I am the coordinator of RoboMaxx,
                we surely would have in the past made arrangments for competitors to
                go against their choice, but that is not the point here.
                My point is that I think many competitors would like to have the
                chance to compete against every entrant for many reasons. Most of all
                it gives you a better chance to identify your weeknesses and become a
                better bot designer.
                Everyone including us at RoboMaxx uses the Double elimination method,
                I don't think it's a bad method, just not an exhastive one. We put on
                a two day event here which seems to be the trend now and one of the
                things we have determined to be important is making the event fun for
                the spectator as well as the competitor. Spectators want to see lots
                of various robots, and in our "fast food" "ADD' society, a one comp at
                a time approach doesn't hold interest. Your choice of comp anytime of
                the day does!
                RoboDex in Japan uses a similar approach as we will be trying where
                competitions and demos are going on continuously through out the day.
                We will of course continue using the standard NWRST rule set, but in
                a round robin style rather than double elimination.
                The popular battlebots used the Round Robin style as well and did
                very good with it. When you made the finals in Battlebots, you knew it
                was because you were the best of the best.
                Being Best of the best doesn't appeal to me, I rarely even compete
                anymore, but I think it does to some and like I said, it's really
                about testing your skills against as many competitors as possible in
                order to improve.
                -Dan



                --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, "Richard L. Bodor"
                <Richard_L_Bodor@h...> wrote:
                > You could have said something to the organizers of the event along
                the lines of,
                > "I want to compete with (fill in the blank). At our 2004 Robot
                Rally© (pictures:
                > http://www.botlanta.org/rally2004/index.html) an entrant came from
                Texas to
                > compete in mini-sumo. He specifically asked the event committee if a
                particular
                > sumo bot would compete (Dale Heatherington's Delta Force). As it
                turns out, the
                > bot in question had retired, but we contacted the builder and had an
                exhibition
                > match after the regular competition. This was due to the generosity
                of the
                > builder and his inherent sense of sportsmanship (characteristics
                that I find
                > common to robot builders).
                >
                > I understand that there are competitors that feel that the rules are
                arbitrary
                > and unfair - I heard much the same at the recent Olympics. But I
                feel the best
                > solution may be to mention it to the dedicated and hard working
                people that put
                > on these events. Your smartest move was to state your point of view
                in a public
                > forum.
                >
                > I can't speak for Robothon nor RoboMaxx, but I suspect that they
                would bend over
                > backwards to make sure that every contestant feels that the
                competition is fair
                > and impartial and truly rewards the "best of the best". I personally
                do not
                > believe that an all day competition similar to the one you outline
                below would
                > necessarily uncover the best robot, but we are willing to entertain
                suggestions
                > and will be watching the results to judge your efforts. We use a double
                > elimination technique that has had few problems and I consistently
                get opposite
                > feedback from that stated below. We also maintain a "three-ring
                circus" format
                > that rotates the type of competition so that there is a mini-sumo
                from the
                > beginning to the end of our event. We also keep a copy of the rules
                available,
                > have a judge's table for registration of complaints, and talk to our
                competitors
                > before and after every event to make sure they are ready to compete.
                I am
                > convinced that we do determine which bot is the "best" and doubt the
                veracity of
                > your claim.
                >
                > Good luck with your event.
                >
                > Richard Bodor
                > Event Coordinator
                > Atlanta Hobby Robot Club
                > "The Oldest Robot Club in the U.S."
                > www.botlanta.org
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Dan Gates" <topazx2@y...>
                > To: <SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:14 PM
                > Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Best of the best
                >
                >
                > : I've often wondered who's really the best of the best in mini sumo,
                > : and standard events leave a lot to be desired in this area. For one,
                > : many competitors never even go up against one another. Any given sumo
                > : robot could kick butt against every competitor it meets and make its
                > : way all the way to the top, but if along the way it never goes against
                > : a few robots that, though having other weaknesses, would inevitably
                > : concure it, then how can it be said that it's the best.
                > : I for one would like to know exactly who I can beat and who I can't.
                > : I've traveled to many events in hopes to test my witts against a
                > : certain competitor only to miss the chance because mine was never
                > : paired with theirs. This is most discouraging and leaves me wondering
                > : if those who have been winning are really the best of the best.
                > :
                > : This lead me to another dilema that has perplexed me for three years
                > : now. Many attendees of the events I've participated in have left
                > : feeling jipped that they missed the competition they came to see by a
                > : matter of an hour or so. I've been approached several times at
                > : RoboMaxx and asked if we'll be doing more mini sumo (or whatever)
                > : before the day is out.
                > : It seems to me that the crowd would feel more fulfilled if they could
                > : come at any time during the event and see what they had hoped to.
                > :
                > : As it turns out, there is a simple solution that addresses both
                > : problems. What we plan to do this year at RoboMaxx is to make every
                > : competition (except Open Class) an all day Round Robin style
                > : challenge. We'll set each event in it's own booth so-to-speak,
                > : mini-sumo being in the center, and every enterant will go up against
                > : every other in it's class including paring beginners with advanced for
                > : the first part. Then depending on how many wins each robot takes, we
                > : will take the top 6 from beginner and top 6 from advanced to top off
                > : the day with a single elimination finally. The top three will receive
                > : prizes and trophies as usual. This also pertains to line following,
                > : maze solving, micro and nano.
                > :
                > : What we will find out in the end is who is really the best of the
                > : best in every area of expertease. Not only will we know who's the
                > : fastest and strongest, but we'll know who's holds together best, who's
                > : maintains power longest, who's programming is better adept, and a
                > : miriade of other things (of course you can switch batteries and do
                > : repairs throughout, but some may exhaust their resources).
                > :
                > : There are a lot of fine details, but this is the jist of it.
                > : So what do you say... do you want to know once and for all who's the
                > : best of the best amoung those who attend? Talk about bragging rights!
                > :
                > : -Dan
                > :
                > :
                > :
                > :
                > : Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
                > : Yahoo! Groups Links
                > :
                > :
                > :
                > :
                > :
                > :



                Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • John M. Ahlstrom
                ... From: Richard L. Bodor ... When I see a new site in someone s tagline I usually check it out. This Atlanta club produces some pretty kewl looking bots.
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 2, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Richard L. Bodor"
                  > Richard Bodor
                  > Event Coordinator
                  > Atlanta Hobby Robot Club
                  > "The Oldest Robot Club in the U.S."
                  > www.botlanta.org


                  When I see a new site in someone's tagline I usually check it out. This
                  Atlanta club produces some pretty kewl looking bots. Way to go Atlanta.
                  Check out their botcave. I'd sure like to see the catstalker in action.

                  http://www.botlanta.org/rally2004/botcave_photos.html

                  JohnA(Kent,WA)
                • Rob Purdy
                  Dan first of all I do understand what you are saying. However any tournament structure will let the best bot win if it is truly the best bot. Battlebots
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 2, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dan first of all I do understand what you are saying. However any
                    tournament structure will let the best bot win if it is truly the best bot.
                    " Battlebots" actually used a single elimination tree not RR. Try getting
                    400+ bots done in 11 days.
                    Really even in the combat arena most people just want to compete. Winning
                    is really just proof of concept for most of us. Very few are hell bent on
                    winning. Those that are (and don't win) usually don't last long in the
                    community. The only time WAR does RR is when the are less than 8 bots.
                    After a full day of competing we're done for the weekend. 2 days is a bit
                    much really. Besides in a 2 day event you'll want to go see what else there
                    is going on at an event. RR is great for all the resons you stated but
                    unfortunatly it takes a long time and sifting through the results can be
                    difficult some times when there are ties. Even then you are still prone to
                    mechanical failures and and bad luck which can catch you in any competition
                    regardless fo the format.


                    Rob... WAR monger.

                    ----Original Message Follows----
                    From: "Dan Gates" <topazx2@...>
                    Reply-To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                    To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Re: Best of the best
                    Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 05:29:00 -0000

                    I wonder if you caught the fact that I am the coordinator of RoboMaxx,
                    we surely would have in the past made arrangments for competitors to
                    go against their choice, but that is not the point here.
                    My point is that I think many competitors would like to have the
                    chance to compete against every entrant for many reasons. Most of all
                    it gives you a better chance to identify your weeknesses and become a
                    better bot designer.
                    Everyone including us at RoboMaxx uses the Double elimination method,
                    I don't think it's a bad method, just not an exhastive one. We put on
                    a two day event here which seems to be the trend now and one of the
                    things we have determined to be important is making the event fun for
                    the spectator as well as the competitor. Spectators want to see lots
                    of various robots, and in our "fast food" "ADD' society, a one comp at
                    a time approach doesn't hold interest. Your choice of comp anytime of
                    the day does!
                    RoboDex in Japan uses a similar approach as we will be trying where
                    competitions and demos are going on continuously through out the day.
                    We will of course continue using the standard NWRST rule set, but in
                    a round robin style rather than double elimination.
                    The popular battlebots used the Round Robin style as well and did
                    very good with it. When you made the finals in Battlebots, you knew it
                    was because you were the best of the best.
                    Being Best of the best doesn't appeal to me, I rarely even compete
                    anymore, but I think it does to some and like I said, it's really
                    about testing your skills against as many competitors as possible in
                    order to improve.
                    -Dan



                    --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, "Richard L. Bodor"
                    <Richard_L_Bodor@h...> wrote:
                    > You could have said something to the organizers of the event along
                    the lines of,
                    > "I want to compete with (fill in the blank). At our 2004 Robot
                    Rally� (pictures:
                    > http://www.botlanta.org/rally2004/index.html) an entrant came from
                    Texas to
                    > compete in mini-sumo. He specifically asked the event committee if a
                    particular
                    > sumo bot would compete (Dale Heatherington's Delta Force). As it
                    turns out, the
                    > bot in question had retired, but we contacted the builder and had an
                    exhibition
                    > match after the regular competition. This was due to the generosity
                    of the
                    > builder and his inherent sense of sportsmanship (characteristics
                    that I find
                    > common to robot builders).
                    >
                    > I understand that there are competitors that feel that the rules are
                    arbitrary
                    > and unfair - I heard much the same at the recent Olympics. But I
                    feel the best
                    > solution may be to mention it to the dedicated and hard working
                    people that put
                    > on these events. Your smartest move was to state your point of view
                    in a public
                    > forum.
                    >
                    > I can't speak for Robothon nor RoboMaxx, but I suspect that they
                    would bend over
                    > backwards to make sure that every contestant feels that the
                    competition is fair
                    > and impartial and truly rewards the "best of the best". I personally
                    do not
                    > believe that an all day competition similar to the one you outline
                    below would
                    > necessarily uncover the best robot, but we are willing to entertain
                    suggestions
                    > and will be watching the results to judge your efforts. We use a double
                    > elimination technique that has had few problems and I consistently
                    get opposite
                    > feedback from that stated below. We also maintain a "three-ring
                    circus" format
                    > that rotates the type of competition so that there is a mini-sumo
                    from the
                    > beginning to the end of our event. We also keep a copy of the rules
                    available,
                    > have a judge's table for registration of complaints, and talk to our
                    competitors
                    > before and after every event to make sure they are ready to compete.
                    I am
                    > convinced that we do determine which bot is the "best" and doubt the
                    veracity of
                    > your claim.
                    >
                    > Good luck with your event.
                    >
                    > Richard Bodor
                    > Event Coordinator
                    > Atlanta Hobby Robot Club
                    > "The Oldest Robot Club in the U.S."
                    > www.botlanta.org
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Dan Gates" <topazx2@y...>
                    > To: <SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:14 PM
                    > Subject: [SeattleRobotics] Best of the best
                    >
                    >
                    > : I've often wondered who's really the best of the best in mini sumo,
                    > : and standard events leave a lot to be desired in this area. For one,
                    > : many competitors never even go up against one another. Any given sumo
                    > : robot could kick butt against every competitor it meets and make its
                    > : way all the way to the top, but if along the way it never goes against
                    > : a few robots that, though having other weaknesses, would inevitably
                    > : concure it, then how can it be said that it's the best.
                    > : I for one would like to know exactly who I can beat and who I can't.
                    > : I've traveled to many events in hopes to test my witts against a
                    > : certain competitor only to miss the chance because mine was never
                    > : paired with theirs. This is most discouraging and leaves me wondering
                    > : if those who have been winning are really the best of the best.
                    > :
                    > : This lead me to another dilema that has perplexed me for three years
                    > : now. Many attendees of the events I've participated in have left
                    > : feeling jipped that they missed the competition they came to see by a
                    > : matter of an hour or so. I've been approached several times at
                    > : RoboMaxx and asked if we'll be doing more mini sumo (or whatever)
                    > : before the day is out.
                    > : It seems to me that the crowd would feel more fulfilled if they could
                    > : come at any time during the event and see what they had hoped to.
                    > :
                    > : As it turns out, there is a simple solution that addresses both
                    > : problems. What we plan to do this year at RoboMaxx is to make every
                    > : competition (except Open Class) an all day Round Robin style
                    > : challenge. We'll set each event in it's own booth so-to-speak,
                    > : mini-sumo being in the center, and every enterant will go up against
                    > : every other in it's class including paring beginners with advanced for
                    > : the first part. Then depending on how many wins each robot takes, we
                    > : will take the top 6 from beginner and top 6 from advanced to top off
                    > : the day with a single elimination finally. The top three will receive
                    > : prizes and trophies as usual. This also pertains to line following,
                    > : maze solving, micro and nano.
                    > :
                    > : What we will find out in the end is who is really the best of the
                    > : best in every area of expertease. Not only will we know who's the
                    > : fastest and strongest, but we'll know who's holds together best, who's
                    > : maintains power longest, who's programming is better adept, and a
                    > : miriade of other things (of course you can switch batteries and do
                    > : repairs throughout, but some may exhaust their resources).
                    > :
                    > : There are a lot of fine details, but this is the jist of it.
                    > : So what do you say... do you want to know once and for all who's the
                    > : best of the best amoung those who attend? Talk about bragging rights!
                    > :
                    > : -Dan
                    > :
                    > :
                    > :
                    > :
                    > : Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
                    > : Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > :
                    > :
                    > :
                    > :
                    > :
                    > :



                    Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
                    Yahoo! Groups Links




                    _________________________________________________________________
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                  • Dan Gates
                    Richard, ... bringing this ... Last time I checked, I had just as much right to post opinion in this group as you or anyone else. ... have the chance ... Never
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 2, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Richard,

                      > After re-reading the original post, it is now unclear why you are
                      bringing this
                      > up in this forum.

                      Last time I checked, I had just as much right to post opinion in this
                      group as you or anyone else.

                      > If your point is that you believe that competitors would like to
                      have the chance
                      > to go against every other competitor, you have left me unconvinced -

                      Never said I set out to convince you of anything, but from the
                      responses on other sites it's obvious that many would like the chance.

                      If one of your
                      > competitors actually says that they want to be "best of the best" I
                      am sure you
                      > will suggest that they travel to other events and start collecting
                      trophies.

                      Obviously one event won't determin the absolute best, and if you
                      re-read the origional post again, you'll see that I simply said "the
                      best of the best among those who attend. Of course a person would have
                      to attend all events and those events would need to compete in the
                      same manor in order to find the best, but for us on the west coast,
                      where mini sumo began, there are really only a handfull of events and
                      most of us would be satisfied with being among the top of those. And
                      as mentioned, the larger part of us don't even care.
                      More important is the following snippet from another message board:

                      I remember Pete Miles traveling all the way from Seattle to San
                      Fransisco to compete in the Mini Sumo event with a rather stout robot.
                      He was matched with Goliath right of the bat and then within minutes
                      against another well built robot. His entire trip was over in a matter
                      of five or ten minutes. The thing is that his robot wins regularly, it
                      was just a matter of bad luck that day. My 12 year old Daughter had
                      the exact same thing happen at RoboLympics and almost discouraged her
                      from ever competing again. She would have felt much better loosing
                      twenty times against advanced robots than being eliminated in the
                      first 5 minutes.
                      More on this topic at the PARTS message board
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PARTS/messages

                      > I was unable to
                      > get to (or even find) the robomaxx web page to see how you have
                      adjusted your
                      > rules, if at all.

                      Unfortunately, our site is hosted in Florida and due to the weather
                      there our site is down.
                      There is absolutely no changes to the rules other than the round
                      robin part. Why would anything else require change? Our club plays by
                      the original NWRST rules set up by the creator of mini sumo - Bill
                      Harrison.

                      I guess we'll find out how it goes at our third annual RoboMaxx event
                      in October.
                    • Dan Gates
                      The RoboMaxx website is back up if you still want to check the rules. It s not completely updated for this years agenda, but it s mostly there.
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 3, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The RoboMaxx website is back up if you still want to check the rules.
                        It's not completely updated for this years agenda, but it's mostly there.
                        http://www.sorobotics.org/RoboMaxx/

                        -Dan
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