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welding

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  • usa.net
    I got a nice book on welding from Home Depot the other day, Welder s Handbook, by Richard Finch. I don t think I ll get into welding any time soon, but it
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 27, 2004
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      I got a nice book on welding from Home Depot the other day, "Welder's
      Handbook, by Richard Finch." I don't think I'll get into welding any time
      soon, but it was neat to learn about the tools, processes and techniques.

      One odd thought I've had is about welding in an enclosed box filled with an
      inert or "inert enough" gas. It might be interesting to use a camera to view
      the welding process, so there wouldn't be any direct eye-through-filters
      necessary. There would have to be gas flow and filtering, of course. It
      would be good to have temperature control, and there's a nice conflict with
      the need to not have drafts but also have gas flow/filtering.

      Where might I learn more about something like this? How expensive is Argon,
      and how heavy is it actually compared to other atmospheric components. I
      think I've heard we're actually going to run out of Helium on Earth? :) Can
      CO2 or Nitrogen be used for welding, or when can they be used?

      I don't plan to work with anything more exotic than Aluminum. It appears that
      stainless steel is somewhat exotic, even; I think I got several pieces of
      cut-off stainless steel for the same price as regular steel (all they cared
      about was if a magnet would stick to it). Apparently some stainless steel
      isn't even magnetic! It was interesting to hear that there are several
      welding processes that work with Aluminum, even oxy-hydrogen torch. (But
      oxy-hydrogen isn't good for working with (mild?) steel.)

      Well, anyway, I'm interested in learning more about welding, tools,
      manufacturers and processes, etc. I'm even interested in high power solid
      state electronics that some of the newest and most fancy welders use in their
      drive circuitry.

      Since a lot of the welding I may be interested in would be light-duty or small
      (jewelry scale?), it would be interesting to see what I could come up with on
      a limited budget.

      The book even mentions that TIG welding can be done with two automobile
      batteries in series, but of course no current control is available in that
      situation. :)
    • Pete Miles
      Argon is an inert gas, it does not react with metals at an elevated temperature. Oxygen, CO2, and Nitrogen do react with metals at elevated temperatures.
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 27, 2004
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        Argon is an inert gas, it does not react with metals at an elevated
        temperature. Oxygen, CO2, and Nitrogen do react with metals at elevated
        temperatures. Depending on the metal and application, this creates serious
        problems. That is why Argon is used.

        Pete

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Fred Kerr usa.net" <fkerr@...>
        To: <SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 1:48 PM
        Subject: [SeattleRobotics] welding


        > I got a nice book on welding from Home Depot the other day, "Welder's
        > Handbook, by Richard Finch." I don't think I'll get into welding any time
        > soon, but it was neat to learn about the tools, processes and techniques.
        >
        > One odd thought I've had is about welding in an enclosed box filled with
        an
        > inert or "inert enough" gas. It might be interesting to use a camera to
        view
        > the welding process, so there wouldn't be any direct eye-through-filters
        > necessary. There would have to be gas flow and filtering, of course. It
        > would be good to have temperature control, and there's a nice conflict
        with
        > the need to not have drafts but also have gas flow/filtering.
        >
        > Where might I learn more about something like this? How expensive is
        Argon,
        > and how heavy is it actually compared to other atmospheric components. I
        > think I've heard we're actually going to run out of Helium on Earth? :)
        Can
        > CO2 or Nitrogen be used for welding, or when can they be used?
        >
        > I don't plan to work with anything more exotic than Aluminum. It appears
        that
        > stainless steel is somewhat exotic, even; I think I got several pieces of
        > cut-off stainless steel for the same price as regular steel (all they
        cared
        > about was if a magnet would stick to it). Apparently some stainless steel
        > isn't even magnetic! It was interesting to hear that there are several
        > welding processes that work with Aluminum, even oxy-hydrogen torch. (But
        > oxy-hydrogen isn't good for working with (mild?) steel.)
        >
        > Well, anyway, I'm interested in learning more about welding, tools,
        > manufacturers and processes, etc. I'm even interested in high power solid
        > state electronics that some of the newest and most fancy welders use in
        their
        > drive circuitry.
        >
        > Since a lot of the welding I may be interested in would be light-duty or
        small
        > (jewelry scale?), it would be interesting to see what I could come up with
        on
        > a limited budget.
        >
        > The book even mentions that TIG welding can be done with two automobile
        > batteries in series, but of course no current control is available in that
        > situation. :)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Larry Barello
        I have a TIG welder and I use 80%A 20%C02 mix. I know that if I contaminate the electrode, for some reason I get tremendous soot deposits. If everything is
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 27, 2004
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          I have a TIG welder and I use 80%A 20%C02 mix. I know that if I contaminate
          the electrode, for some reason I get tremendous soot deposits. If
          everything is working Ok, the welds are shiny and clean.

          TIG welding, although expensive to get started with, is really great: you
          can weld just about anything without toxic fumes or residues.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Pete Miles

          Argon is an inert gas, it does not react with metals at an elevated
          temperature. Oxygen, CO2, and Nitrogen do react with metals at elevated
          temperatures. Depending on the metal and application, this creates serious
          problems. That is why Argon is used.

          Pete
        • Cen
          Certain gases in welding have slightly different properties as far as the welds are concerned.. but they MUST be the inert gases.. Helium, Neon, Argon, Xenon..
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 27, 2004
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            Certain gases in welding have slightly different properties as far as the
            welds are concerned.. but they MUST be the inert gases.. Helium, Neon, Argon,
            Xenon.. most common are the first 3 and even blends of these.

            the gases affect the "penetration" of the weld (learned that in high school in
            welding class).

            Aluminum has its own special problems for welding because it conducts heat so
            well. Gas welding aluminum is almost impossible.. using mig (wire) or TiG
            (Tungsten inert Gas) is used.. because the heat can be very concentrated.
            Aluminum has the additional complexity of the oxides melt at a higher temp
            than does the base metal, so a gas cutting torce when it starts to cut.. has
            slag form and solidify right where you are trying to cut.

            A Google search on the term 'welding' brings up plenty to get you started in
            this.


            On Friday 27 February 2004 04:48 pm, Fred Kerr wrote:
            > I got a nice book on welding from Home Depot the other day, "Welder's
            > Handbook, by Richard Finch." I don't think I'll get into welding any time
            > soon, but it was neat to learn about the tools, processes and techniques.
            >
            > One odd thought I've had is about welding in an enclosed box filled with an
            > inert or "inert enough" gas. It might be interesting to use a camera to
            > view the welding process, so there wouldn't be any direct
            > eye-through-filters necessary. There would have to be gas flow and
            > filtering, of course. It would be good to have temperature control, and
            > there's a nice conflict with the need to not have drafts but also have gas
            > flow/filtering.
            >
            > Where might I learn more about something like this? How expensive is
            > Argon, and how heavy is it actually compared to other atmospheric
            > components. I think I've heard we're actually going to run out of Helium
            > on Earth? :) Can CO2 or Nitrogen be used for welding, or when can they be
            > used?
            >
            > I don't plan to work with anything more exotic than Aluminum. It appears
            > that stainless steel is somewhat exotic, even; I think I got several pieces
            > of cut-off stainless steel for the same price as regular steel (all they
            > cared about was if a magnet would stick to it). Apparently some stainless
            > steel isn't even magnetic! It was interesting to hear that there are
            > several welding processes that work with Aluminum, even oxy-hydrogen torch.
            > (But oxy-hydrogen isn't good for working with (mild?) steel.)
            >
            > Well, anyway, I'm interested in learning more about welding, tools,
            > manufacturers and processes, etc. I'm even interested in high power solid
            > state electronics that some of the newest and most fancy welders use in
            > their drive circuitry.
            >
            > Since a lot of the welding I may be interested in would be light-duty or
            > small (jewelry scale?), it would be interesting to see what I could come up
            > with on a limited budget.
            >
            > The book even mentions that TIG welding can be done with two automobile
            > batteries in series, but of course no current control is available in that
            > situation. :)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Rob Purdy
            Welding is just as diverse as electronics. Chemistry Physics it s all there. TIG is the most diverse tecnique and for jewlery work is second only to gas.
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 27, 2004
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              Welding is just as diverse as electronics. Chemistry Physics it's all
              there. TIG is the most diverse tecnique and for jewlery work is second only
              to gas. For doing aluminum you will need a box with a lot of power to do
              any thing larger than .125". If you live in the Seattle area Lk WA tecnical
              college has a great night program weld 151 the is a combination of safety
              instruction, basic how to and open classroom. but they have gas, mig, tig
              and stick. I don't know how they can afford to run the program. We figured
              out our cost to be 3$ an hour of class time and I know I burned up more
              consumeables(gas,mig wire, power etc) than that. The best part is they have
              nice big commercial quality shear and break to boot.

              ----Original Message Follows----
              From: Fred Kerr (usa.net) <fkerr@...>
              Reply-To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
              To: <SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [SeattleRobotics] welding
              Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:48:09 -0800

              I got a nice book on welding from Home Depot the other day, "Welder's
              Handbook, by Richard Finch." I don't think I'll get into welding any time
              soon, but it was neat to learn about the tools, processes and techniques.

              One odd thought I've had is about welding in an enclosed box filled with an
              inert or "inert enough" gas. It might be interesting to use a camera to
              view
              the welding process, so there wouldn't be any direct eye-through-filters
              necessary. There would have to be gas flow and filtering, of course. It
              would be good to have temperature control, and there's a nice conflict with
              the need to not have drafts but also have gas flow/filtering.

              Where might I learn more about something like this? How expensive is Argon,
              and how heavy is it actually compared to other atmospheric components. I
              think I've heard we're actually going to run out of Helium on Earth? :)
              Can
              CO2 or Nitrogen be used for welding, or when can they be used?

              I don't plan to work with anything more exotic than Aluminum. It appears
              that
              stainless steel is somewhat exotic, even; I think I got several pieces of
              cut-off stainless steel for the same price as regular steel (all they cared
              about was if a magnet would stick to it). Apparently some stainless steel
              isn't even magnetic! It was interesting to hear that there are several
              welding processes that work with Aluminum, even oxy-hydrogen torch. (But
              oxy-hydrogen isn't good for working with (mild?) steel.)

              Well, anyway, I'm interested in learning more about welding, tools,
              manufacturers and processes, etc. I'm even interested in high power solid
              state electronics that some of the newest and most fancy welders use in
              their
              drive circuitry.

              Since a lot of the welding I may be interested in would be light-duty or
              small
              (jewelry scale?), it would be interesting to see what I could come up with
              on
              a limited budget.

              The book even mentions that TIG welding can be done with two automobile
              batteries in series, but of course no current control is available in that
              situation. :)





              Visit the SRS Website at http://www.seattlerobotics.org
              Yahoo! Groups Links




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            • jeff_birt2000
              Commercial automated welding systems use camera to allow an operator to monitor (and even record) the welding process. Because of the amounts of heat, visable
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 27, 2004
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                Commercial automated welding systems use camera to allow an operator
                to monitor (and even record) the welding process. Because of the
                amounts of heat, visable light and IR generated (well,LOTS of UV too,
                that's how you get that welders sunburn), the camera needs proper
                filtering, (it helps if the camera is NOT IR sensitive), cooling, and
                even auxillary lighting to see where your at while not welding.

                Your enclosed box would have to be vented and have enough shileding
                gas supplied so as to slightly pressureize it. The gas escaping from
                the box would serve to carry the welding fumes and smoke.

                Choice of shielding gas is determined by by your welding process and
                the material being welded. The MIG process commenly uses CO2 or a
                CO2/Argon mix (argon being more expensive). Striaght CO2 give
                greater penetration, CO2/Argon give a better looking weld. Argon is
                expensive enough in other countries (like Japan) that they have
                really taken to the pulsed MIG process to improve weld quality.
                Other gasses are used when needed, MIG welding stainless requires
                a 'Tri-Mix' gas (which can actually be several diffrent gasses).

                TIG welding generally uses pure argon as an general purpose gas,
                although other gasses can be mixed in such as hydrogen, oxygen
                depending on what your doing.

                The MIG process uses a constant voltage power supply which has a
                lower OCV than the Stick/TIG process. The stick/TIG processes use a
                constant current power supply.

                Miller used to have some general informational stuff on their website
                check out millerwelds.com

                Jeff_Birt




                --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, Fred Kerr (usa.net)
                <fkerr@u...> wrote:
                > I got a nice book on welding from Home Depot the other
                day, "Welder's
                > Handbook, by Richard Finch." I don't think I'll get into welding
                any time
                > soon, but it was neat to learn about the tools, processes and
                techniques.
                >
                > One odd thought I've had is about welding in an enclosed box filled
                with an
                > inert or "inert enough" gas. It might be interesting to use a
                camera to view
                > the welding process, so there wouldn't be any direct eye-through-
                filters
                > necessary. There would have to be gas flow and filtering, of
                course. It
                > would be good to have temperature control, and there's a nice
                conflict with
                > the need to not have drafts but also have gas flow/filtering.
                >
                > Where might I learn more about something like this? How expensive
                is Argon,
                > and how heavy is it actually compared to other atmospheric
                components. I
                > think I've heard we're actually going to run out of Helium on
                Earth? :) Can
                > CO2 or Nitrogen be used for welding, or when can they be used?
                >
                > I don't plan to work with anything more exotic than Aluminum. It
                appears that
                > stainless steel is somewhat exotic, even; I think I got several
                pieces of
                > cut-off stainless steel for the same price as regular steel (all
                they cared
                > about was if a magnet would stick to it). Apparently some
                stainless steel
                > isn't even magnetic! It was interesting to hear that there are
                several
                > welding processes that work with Aluminum, even oxy-hydrogen
                torch. (But
                > oxy-hydrogen isn't good for working with (mild?) steel.)
                >
                > Well, anyway, I'm interested in learning more about welding, tools,
                > manufacturers and processes, etc. I'm even interested in high
                power solid
                > state electronics that some of the newest and most fancy welders
                use in their
                > drive circuitry.
                >
                > Since a lot of the welding I may be interested in would be light-
                duty or small
                > (jewelry scale?), it would be interesting to see what I could come
                up with on
                > a limited budget.
                >
                > The book even mentions that TIG welding can be done with two
                automobile
                > batteries in series, but of course no current control is available
                in that
                > situation. :)
              • Charles Holzschuh
                Hi I was a welder for about xx years. Argon is pretty cheap but you need to rent a tank and you need hose an regulators. As for TIG welding I could not agree
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 28, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi I was a welder for about xx years. Argon is pretty
                  cheap but you need to rent a tank and you need hose an
                  regulators. As for TIG welding I could not agree more
                  about needing a lot of current. a 300 amp machine is
                  the a minimun. The machine must be designed for TIG.
                  There are switches for the water pump and argon/co2,
                  and AC with high frequency, and foot pedal. Aluminum
                  must be very clean to weld. You need to remove the
                  oxide with a stainless steel brush. When you first
                  start out welding get a pair of sun glasses to wear
                  under the hood. Welding aluminum is pretty bright. You
                  may want to use a #12 filter. With TIG stainless steel
                  is pretty easy to weld and 150 amp welder will work
                  fine.
                  --- jeff_birt2000 <birt_j@...> wrote:
                  > Commercial automated welding systems use camera to
                  > allow an operator
                  > to monitor (and even record) the welding process.
                  > Because of the
                  > amounts of heat, visable light and IR generated
                  > (well,LOTS of UV too,
                  > that's how you get that welders sunburn), the camera
                  > needs proper
                  > filtering, (it helps if the camera is NOT IR
                  > sensitive), cooling, and
                  > even auxillary lighting to see where your at while
                  > not welding.
                  >
                  > Your enclosed box would have to be vented and have
                  > enough shileding
                  > gas supplied so as to slightly pressureize it. The
                  > gas escaping from
                  > the box would serve to carry the welding fumes and
                  > smoke.
                  >
                  > Choice of shielding gas is determined by by your
                  > welding process and
                  > the material being welded. The MIG process commenly
                  > uses CO2 or a
                  > CO2/Argon mix (argon being more expensive).
                  > Striaght CO2 give
                  > greater penetration, CO2/Argon give a better looking
                  > weld. Argon is
                  > expensive enough in other countries (like Japan)
                  > that they have
                  > really taken to the pulsed MIG process to improve
                  > weld quality.
                  > Other gasses are used when needed, MIG welding
                  > stainless requires
                  > a 'Tri-Mix' gas (which can actually be several
                  > diffrent gasses).
                  >
                  > TIG welding generally uses pure argon as an general
                  > purpose gas,
                  > although other gasses can be mixed in such as
                  > hydrogen, oxygen
                  > depending on what your doing.
                  >
                  > The MIG process uses a constant voltage power supply
                  > which has a
                  > lower OCV than the Stick/TIG process. The stick/TIG
                  > processes use a
                  > constant current power supply.
                  >
                  > Miller used to have some general informational stuff
                  > on their website
                  > check out millerwelds.com
                  >
                  > Jeff_Birt
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com, Fred Kerr
                  > (usa.net)
                  > <fkerr@u...> wrote:
                  > > I got a nice book on welding from Home Depot the
                  > other
                  > day, "Welder's
                  > > Handbook, by Richard Finch." I don't think I'll
                  > get into welding
                  > any time
                  > > soon, but it was neat to learn about the tools,
                  > processes and
                  > techniques.
                  > >
                  > > One odd thought I've had is about welding in an
                  > enclosed box filled
                  > with an
                  > > inert or "inert enough" gas. It might be
                  > interesting to use a
                  > camera to view
                  > > the welding process, so there wouldn't be any
                  > direct eye-through-
                  > filters
                  > > necessary. There would have to be gas flow and
                  > filtering, of
                  > course. It
                  > > would be good to have temperature control, and
                  > there's a nice
                  > conflict with
                  > > the need to not have drafts but also have gas
                  > flow/filtering.
                  > >
                  > > Where might I learn more about something like
                  > this? How expensive
                  > is Argon,
                  > > and how heavy is it actually compared to other
                  > atmospheric
                  > components. I
                  > > think I've heard we're actually going to run out
                  > of Helium on
                  > Earth? :) Can
                  > > CO2 or Nitrogen be used for welding, or when can
                  > they be used?
                  > >
                  > > I don't plan to work with anything more exotic
                  > than Aluminum. It
                  > appears that
                  > > stainless steel is somewhat exotic, even; I think
                  > I got several
                  > pieces of
                  > > cut-off stainless steel for the same price as
                  > regular steel (all
                  > they cared
                  > > about was if a magnet would stick to it).
                  > Apparently some
                  > stainless steel
                  > > isn't even magnetic! It was interesting to hear
                  > that there are
                  > several
                  > > welding processes that work with Aluminum, even
                  > oxy-hydrogen
                  > torch. (But
                  > > oxy-hydrogen isn't good for working with (mild?)
                  > steel.)
                  > >
                  > > Well, anyway, I'm interested in learning more
                  > about welding, tools,
                  > > manufacturers and processes, etc. I'm even
                  > interested in high
                  > power solid
                  > > state electronics that some of the newest and most
                  > fancy welders
                  > use in their
                  > > drive circuitry.
                  > >
                  > > Since a lot of the welding I may be interested in
                  > would be light-
                  > duty or small
                  > > (jewelry scale?), it would be interesting to see
                  > what I could come
                  > up with on
                  > > a limited budget.
                  > >
                  > > The book even mentions that TIG welding can be
                  > done with two
                  > automobile
                  > > batteries in series, but of course no current
                  > control is available
                  > in that
                  > > situation. :)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Visit the SRS Website at
                  > http://www.seattlerobotics.org
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  > SeattleRobotics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                • Kevin Ross
                  ... I have a TIG machine. My machine is a Miller SyncroWave 180 (http://www.millerwelds.com/products/tig/syncrowave_180_sd/) It does a great job with all
                  Message 8 of 8 , Feb 29, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    >-----Original Message-----
                    >From: Charles Holzschuh [mailto:xolzscxux@...]
                    >Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 8:12 AM
                    >To: SeattleRobotics@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [SeattleRobotics] Re: welding
                    >
                    >
                    >Hi I was a welder for about xx years. Argon is pretty
                    >cheap but you need to rent a tank and you need hose an
                    >regulators. As for TIG welding I could not agree more about
                    >needing a lot of current. a 300 amp machine is the a minimun.
                    >The machine must be designed for TIG. There are switches for
                    >the water pump and argon/co2, and AC with high frequency, and
                    >foot pedal. Aluminum must be very clean to weld. You need to
                    >remove the oxide with a stainless steel brush. When you first
                    >start out welding get a pair of sun glasses to wear under the
                    >hood. Welding aluminum is pretty bright. You may want to use a
                    >#12 filter. With TIG stainless steel is pretty easy to weld
                    >and 150 amp welder will work fine.

                    I have a TIG machine. My machine is a Miller SyncroWave 180
                    (http://www.millerwelds.com/products/tig/syncrowave_180_sd/) It does a great
                    job with all materials. Cost about $1600 with the running gear (basically a
                    nice cart with a tank holder). You will need a 60 amp 240 outlet for it. It
                    will max out at 180 amps, which is fine for up to 1/4" aluminum.

                    I use Argon for the shielding gas. To be honest, you aren't going to use
                    enough gas to warrant using anything but Argon. It costs about $33 for a
                    tank fill. Buy the tank, it costs about $90, but you won't have pay rent for
                    it. No reason to worry about the gas cost for home use. (If you were welding
                    8 hours a day, then you start looking at gas costs).

                    A 300 amp machine is really big and really expensive. The machine is going
                    to cost about $4000 and you need a 120amp 240 circuit. Several of the
                    machines require 3 phase power. There are limits on how deep of a weld you
                    can make in aluminum. To get much deeper than 1/4", you will end up heating
                    the surface metal too hot. For home shop use, going contrary to Charles
                    opinion, I think a 300 amp machine is too big.

                    I agree completely with Charles assesment of the filter. I use an electronic
                    hood set to #13 when TIG welding aluminum. Every now and again I screw up
                    and weld with it set to #11. Doesn't take more than a minute or so before my
                    eyes get mighty tired.

                    Kevin
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