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Re: [Scoutradio] 20 Meter JOTA CW and PSK31 Conflict

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  • Fred Stevens K2FRD
    ... Very valid point, Bill. I don t think CW would be missed by many JOTA participants. However, there ARE a few including one at our local JOTA who does CW
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 21, 2003
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      At 19:13 -0400 21/04/2003, Bill Stewart wrote:
      >Fred, etal. I agree that Mr. Middlekoop is begging the question.
      >However, with the kids that we have worked with during our JOTA
      >operations, we have not
      >done CW because the kids aren't interested in it. They want to hear the
      >voice on the other end. They want to talk on the mic to the voice on the
      >other end. In a
      >nutshell they want to participate hands-on. So, quite honestly making CW
      >contacts during JOTA defeats the purpose of JOTA which is to get the
      >kids talking
      >to each other. That being said, we should drop CW altogether from JOTA.
      >Interference problem solved.

      Very valid point, Bill. I don't think CW would be missed by many JOTA
      participants. However, there ARE a few including one at our local
      JOTA who does CW for the "advanced" Scouts who seem to enjoy watching
      their words being translated into a visible/audible digital form and
      have their responses come back the same way. But, I could live
      without JOTA CW and I think my friend could also.

      One way or another, I don't think the issue should just sit and
      fester; we get one serious conflict between PSK31 and JOTA CW on
      14.070 and World Scouting in general and the Boy Scouts of America in
      particular gets another black eye, something BSA just doesn't need
      right now (think California Judges and various United Ways).

      --
      73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD
      Chenango Co. (NY) Assistant Emergency Coordinator
      Foothills District, Otschodela Council BSA Committees
      Otschodela Council (BSA) Amateur Radio Group KZ2BSA:
      http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm
      K2FRD Personal Adventure page: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/K2FRD.htm
      Six-County (NY) ARES: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/SCARES.htm
      The OCARG EAGLE monthly Scouting/Ham Radio newsletter:
      http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/Apr03EAGLE.htm ;
      Subscribe to the EAGLE (no cost, no spam, no ads): mailto:K2FRD@... .
    • Bill Stewart
      For those few who want to do CW, don t do it on 14.070. Heck, half the time we are all over the bands making contacts. We run it almost like a contest doing
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 21, 2003
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        For those few who want to do CW, don't do it on 14.070. Heck, half the
        time we are all over the bands making contacts. We run it almost like a
        contest doing hunt and pounce
        contacts or putting out a CQ wherever we find an empty spot on the dial.
        It's usually hunt, pounce and talk or CQ Jamboree and talking to whom
        ever comes up and wants to play.
        The so called "advanced" Scouts I know usually HAVE their licenses and
        are helping us do the demo. We've done PSK31 contacts at JOTA, but, we
        usually clobber the CW guys
        because we don't run low power. Now granted we do run barefoot, but,
        we're still running about 100 watts. We usually switch between phone and
        data. We'll use the PSK31
        contacts for demo purposes to show what all we can do beside do the
        "old" things. The kids like watching the waterfall displays and seeing
        one of our operators just click on a signal
        and bring it up. The when the persons talking are finished we come up
        and try to make contact with one or both of them.

        73,

        Bill, W2BSA

        Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:

        >At 19:13 -0400 21/04/2003, Bill Stewart wrote:
        >
        >
        >>Fred, etal. I agree that Mr. Middlekoop is begging the question.
        >>However, with the kids that we have worked with during our JOTA
        >>operations, we have not
        >>done CW because the kids aren't interested in it. They want to hear the
        >>voice on the other end. They want to talk on the mic to the voice on the
        >>other end. In a
        >>nutshell they want to participate hands-on. So, quite honestly making CW
        >>contacts during JOTA defeats the purpose of JOTA which is to get the
        >>kids talking
        >>to each other. That being said, we should drop CW altogether from JOTA.
        >>Interference problem solved.
        >>
        >>
        >
        >Very valid point, Bill. I don't think CW would be missed by many JOTA
        >participants. However, there ARE a few including one at our local
        >JOTA who does CW for the "advanced" Scouts who seem to enjoy watching
        >their words being translated into a visible/audible digital form and
        >have their responses come back the same way. But, I could live
        >without JOTA CW and I think my friend could also.
        >
        >One way or another, I don't think the issue should just sit and
        >fester; we get one serious conflict between PSK31 and JOTA CW on
        >14.070 and World Scouting in general and the Boy Scouts of America in
        >particular gets another black eye, something BSA just doesn't need
        >right now (think California Judges and various United Ways).
        >
        >
        >
      • Fred Stevens K2FRD
        ... We need to get this change made Official. ... I did PSK31 on 14.070 successfully at the 2002 JOTA, but I was only using 10 watts. The Scouts love it since
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 21, 2003
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          At 22:33 -0400 21/04/2003, Bill Stewart wrote:
          >For those few who want to do CW, don't do it on 14.070.

          We need to get this change made Official.

          > We've done PSK31 contacts at JOTA, but, we
          >usually clobber the CW guys
          >because we don't run low power. Now granted we do run barefoot, but,
          >we're still running about 100 watts. We usually switch between phone and
          >data. We'll use the PSK31
          >contacts for demo purposes to show what all we can do beside do the
          >"old" things. The kids like watching the waterfall displays and seeing
          >one of our operators just click on a signal
          >and bring it up.

          I did PSK31 on 14.070 successfully at the 2002 JOTA, but I was only
          using 10 watts. The Scouts love it since it's with a computer which
          they understand. They were also entranced with the waterfall display
          and the simplicity of the mode. It's not unlike Instant Messenger
          modes except without the cables, dialup, cable, and modems, and it's
          faster. They also liked the idea of working everything off a car
          battery from a picnic table in the middle of nowhere. But, twice
          during my time at the keyboard, CW signals blocked out all the PSK31
          signals for short intervals. One of them was a CQ, but there was no
          answering CW, so he gave up; I didn't switch over to CW for the other
          signal. For the upcoming JOTA, I think I'll stick exclusively with
          PSK31 and let the other operators play with SSB and CW (but not on
          14.070); we had 13 operators last year, so we have plenty to spare.


          --
          73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD
          Chenango Co. (NY) Assistant Emergency Coordinator
          Foothills District, Otschodela Council BSA Committees
          Otschodela Council (BSA) Amateur Radio Group KZ2BSA:
          http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm
          K2FRD Personal Adventure page: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/K2FRD.htm
          Six-County (NY) ARES: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/SCARES.htm
          The OCARG EAGLE monthly Scouting/Ham Radio newsletter:
          http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/Apr03EAGLE.htm ;
          Subscribe to the EAGLE (no cost, no spam, no ads): mailto:K2FRD@... .
        • Kd5inm@aol.com
          I don t think CW should be used during JOTA. I think we as Hams should focus on aspects of the hobby that are available to a Technician class license. It s
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 22, 2003
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              I don't think CW should be used during JOTA. I think we as Hams should focus on aspects of the hobby that are available to a Technician class license. It's kinda ignorant to show them aspects of the hobby in which they will have no involvement in with the ENTRY LEVEL TICKET. Show them what THEY can accomplish in a reasonable time, only the ones who really have an interest in CW will persue CW after JOTA, the rest won't/can't see themselves doing it, it's not beneficial to Ham radio or the scouts to demonstrate CW.
              This is the problem with all the times Amateur radio is shown to the public, some folks do not think about what they are doing. They should demonstrate modes or bands that the scouts will get with the first license they get, (which I'm afraid to pop everyone's bubble), but it's not gonna be 99% of the time a license that gives them access to CW bands on HF.
              JOTA should be a time that we teach the scouts, and show them what is possible with some time spent studying(35 question test), and all the fun they will have BREAKING NEW GROUND. HF is old, it is well established, we basically know what it's gonna do, how it propagates, heck, sometimes we can even predict it, but when you get into microwaves and other aspects of the frequencies they get with the Technician class license, there is plenty of room to actually do something that no other Ham has done before. For instance, set a distance record, or complete a DX QSO when it was before thought impossible.  PSK31 and other digital modes that have gained use in HF because it is something new , one of the few things "New" done at HF in years. The thing is that folks forget, PSK31 and like digital modes aren't just HF modes, they work anyplace, on ANY band, not just HF, some folks forget that, other bands have PSK31 activity, above 30 mhz.
               I think JOTA is a good project/program, I just feel we should show the scouts what they can accomplish and show them how a Tech license can be used in their activities as Scouts. Show them search and rescue, show them the use of communications on Scout camps, how they can use it to find one another, or to communicate between groups, when doing this, they aren't out with an HF rig, they will most times have a HT(VHF/UHF), show them how they can setup a local camp repeater, then use it to communicate amongst groups. Scouting is great, but how many things can you think of that you might learn as a scout, that you will use the REST OF YOUR LIFE!  Ham radio is one, teach them and get them licensed, then they will take that with them up into their 80's or higher age,  and USE IT . Pitch a tent, or tie a rope into a knot or start a fire, yeah, you are gonna be doing that in the back yard of your house when you are 80-90 years old, not likely, but Ham radio is something they will never outgrow.

              73'  John KD5INM
          • kr1zan
            I like what John is saying here. Last night I was composing a similar message and clicked on the wrong button and lost my message -- probably a good thing!
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 22, 2003
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              I like what John is saying here. Last night I was composing a
              similar message and clicked on the wrong button and lost my message --
              probably a good thing!

              Rather than "calling frequencies" for Radio Scouting, how about
              recommended segments of bands for Radio Scouting activities,
              including JOTA. Many times I'm asked for skeds with US and foreign
              Scout units on the International Scouting Frequencies. When the time
              comes, those frequencies and many kHz around them are saturated.
              Sometimes we find each other, sometimes we don't.

              Or, to keep it simple, how about using John's concept and suggest
              recommended US Scouting frequencies as Technician, Tech Plus and
              General allocations to allow as many folks as possible to get on
              compatible frequencies. The guidelines could include frequencies or
              portions of bands that should be avoided or used for specific modes
              (i.e., SSTV, PSK-31, RTTY, etc). If you want a sked, just pick a
              frequency -- all of my skeds have been set up via email or packet, as
              opposed to an implication of using the International Scouting
              Frequency.

              The World Jamboree in Thailand announced they would be on the
              Scouting Frequencies and to the best of my knowledge, they always
              showed up on something other than those frequencies. So, what's the
              purpose of those frequencies anyway? -- use reality when answering
              that question.

              Back to what John was commenting on ... maybe it's time for JOTA to
              become more localized for introductions ... use VHF/UHF and amateur
              radio demos. Scouts who have learned more about Ham Radio, perhaps
              have their licenses, might try to work other radio oriented Scout
              groups using HF or satellites. Even though it's not supposed to be a
              contest, embellish the JOTA patch with a WAC, or WAS, or WAD (Worked
              All call sign Districts) or DX-X, or DX-n (the X is for 10 countries
              confirmed, the n is for some number, perhaps an endorsement). JOTA
              for older Scouts might become a Scouting Field Day.

              Just some thoughts.

              73, Frank KR1ZAN
              Advisor, Venturer Crew 73 - K5BSA
              Richardson, TX

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Kd5inm@...
              To: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 1:07 PM
              Subject: [Scoutradio] 20 Meter JOTA CW and PSK31 Conflict



              I don't think CW should be used during JOTA. I think we as Hams
              should focus on aspects of the hobby that are available to a
              Technician class license. It's kinda ignorant to show them aspects of
              the hobby in which they will have no involvement in with the ENTRY
              LEVEL TICKET. Show them what THEY can accomplish in a reasonable
              time, only the ones who really have an interest in CW will persue CW
              after JOTA, the rest won't/can't see themselves doing it, it's not
              beneficial to Ham radio or the scouts to demonstrate CW.

              <<<<< Rest of message snipped out >>>>>
            • kb1flr
              Hi John, I would respectfully disagree with your statements regarding the use of CW. CW IS available to Technicians. Look at the bandplans. All VHF and UHF
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 28, 2003
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                Hi John,

                I would respectfully disagree with your statements regarding the use
                of CW. CW IS available to Technicians. Look at the bandplans. All VHF
                and UHF allocations have sub bands for CW and SSB and Technicians
                have full rights and privileges in these areas. Just because CW is
                not required for a Tech license does not mean it cannot be used.

                I have given Ham radio demonstrations to my wife's Girl Scout troop,
                of which my daughter is a member. The kids were so interested in
                using the oscillator that they would sneak back from the other
                activities to practice sending. Kids love secret code type stuff and
                CW seems like that to them.

                In addition, many children who enter Ham radio feel intimidated by
                talking to adults on repeaters or HF. CW is a great equalizer in this
                regard.

                So please reconsider your view on the use of CW.

                Best Regards,
                Rick, KB1FLR
                --- In scoutradio@yahoogroups.com, Kd5inm@a... wrote:
                >
                > I don't think CW should be used during JOTA. I think we as Hams
                should
                > focus on aspects of the hobby that are available to a Technician
                class
                > license. It's kinda ignorant to show them aspects of the hobby in
                which they
                > will have no involvement in with the ENTRY LEVEL TICKET. Show them
                what THEY
                > can accomplish in a reasonable time, only the ones who really have
                an
                > interest in CW will persue CW after JOTA, the rest won't/can't see
                themselves
                > doing it, it's not beneficial to Ham radio or the scouts to
                demonstrate CW.
                > This is the problem with all the times Amateur radio is shown to
                the
                > public, some folks do not think about what they are doing. They
                should
                > demonstrate modes or bands that the scouts will get with the first
                license
                > they get, (which I'm afraid to pop everyone's bubble), but it's not
                gonna be
                > 99% of the time a license that gives them access to CW bands on HF.
                > JOTA should be a time that we teach the scouts, and show them
                what is
                > possible with some time spent studying(35 question test), and all
                the fun
                > they will have BREAKING NEW GROUND. HF is old, it is well
                established, we
                > basically know what it's gonna do, how it propagates, heck,
                sometimes we can
                > even predict it, but when you get into microwaves and other aspects
                of the
                > frequencies they get with the Technician class license, there is
                plenty of
                > room to actually do something that no other Ham has done before.
                For
                > instance, set a distance record, or complete a DX QSO when it was
                before
                > thought impossible. PSK31 and other digital modes that have gained
                use in HF
                > because it is something new , one of the few things "New" done at
                HF in
                > years. The thing is that folks forget, PSK31 and like digital modes
                aren't
                > just HF modes, they work anyplace, on ANY band, not just HF, some
                folks
                > forget that, other bands have PSK31 activity, above 30 mhz.
                > I think JOTA is a good project/program, I just feel we should
                show the
                > scouts what they can accomplish and show them how a Tech license
                can be used
                > in their activities as Scouts. Show them search and rescue, show
                them the use
                > of communications on Scout camps, how they can use it to find one
                another, or
                > to communicate between groups, when doing this, they aren't out
                with an HF
                > rig, they will most times have a HT(VHF/UHF), show them how they
                can setup a
                > local camp repeater, then use it to communicate amongst groups.
                Scouting is
                > great, but how many things can you think of that you might learn as
                a scout,
                > that you will use the REST OF YOUR LIFE! Ham radio is one, teach
                them and
                > get them licensed, then they will take that with them up into their
                80's or
                > higher age, and USE IT . Pitch a tent, or tie a rope into a knot
                or start a
                > fire, yeah, you are gonna be doing that in the back yard of your
                house when
                > you are 80-90 years old, not likely, but Ham radio is something
                they will
                > never outgrow.
                >
                > 73' John KD5INM
              • Malcolm - G4CXT
                I would support this point of view. I took radio to one camp which had a spy theme - when I offered to operate CW as a special agent you couldn t get near
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 28, 2003
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                  I would support this point of view. I took radio to one camp which had a
                  "spy theme" - when I offered to operate CW as a "special agent" you
                  couldn't get near the radio for the number of kids crowding round to
                  witness it! Granted, they hadn't a clue what was being said, but to say
                  they were intrigued would be an understatement!

                  Its this kind of curiosity which ham radio plays to in adults & children
                  alike - and if CW or PSK31 is what gets them to ask "I wonder if I could do
                  that" then its mission accomplished in my view ... provided you have the
                  means to feed that curiosity, of course.

                  The only issue we have is that the published "Scout frequencies" show a CW
                  calling frequency of 14.070MHz. Where you actually operate of course is
                  entirely up to you. I suspect that precious few Scout to Scout CW QSOs
                  result from random calling (and listening) on 14.070. In fact, I've NEVER
                  listened there for any calls, and seldom operate above 14.060 MHz in any
                  case! In practice therefore I think we are talking about a problem which is
                  most unlikely to occur and if it does which is easily fixed.

                  Despite this there is a case in my view for publishing an alternative Scout
                  calling frequency (eg 14.067 MHz) - and this can only come from the
                  auspices of WOSM to avoid any accusation of conflict with the now
                  recognised & established PSK31 slot at 14.0725 MHz

                  73

                  Malcolm - G4CXT
                  ADC(Scouts) - Woodbridge





                  At , you wrote:
                  >Hi John,
                  >
                  >I would respectfully disagree with your statements regarding the use
                  >of CW. CW IS available to Technicians. Look at the bandplans. All VHF
                  >and UHF allocations have sub bands for CW and SSB and Technicians
                  >have full rights and privileges in these areas. Just because CW is
                  >not required for a Tech license does not mean it cannot be used.
                  >
                  >I have given Ham radio demonstrations to my wife's Girl Scout troop,
                  >of which my daughter is a member. The kids were so interested in
                  >using the oscillator that they would sneak back from the other
                  >activities to practice sending. Kids love secret code type stuff and
                  >CW seems like that to them.
                  >
                  >In addition, many children who enter Ham radio feel intimidated by
                  >talking to adults on repeaters or HF. CW is a great equalizer in this
                  >regard.
                  >
                  >So please reconsider your view on the use of CW.
                  >
                  >Best Regards,
                  >Rick, KB1FLR
                • kr1zan
                  Hi all, I would argue that you re both correct. CW demonstrations are a lot of fun for the kids, especially when it s a no pressure personal challenge.
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 28, 2003
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                    Hi all,

                    I would argue that you're both correct. CW "demonstrations" are a
                    lot of fun for the kids, especially when it's a no pressure personal
                    challenge. When CW is used for an actual on the air contact, the
                    Scouts have no practical idea what's going on, they're spectators,
                    not actual participants. They must take you at your word that the
                    beeps and bonks truly represent what they asked you to send. It's
                    kinda like watching a rock grow. I like the use of voice or keyboard
                    for Scout to Scout contacts.

                    Similar to CW GET that the ARRL used at a teacher's workshop, we
                    often use HamScope or some other tools so the kids can try sending
                    Morse and the computer interprets what they're sending. This is
                    especially useful when you don't have operators who are skilled at CW
                    themselves. A computer off to the side can be a lot of fun for kids
                    to try -- send their name, etc.

                    I would advocate that we get rid of the "calling frequencies" list
                    and recommend the use of Technician, Tech Plus and General Class
                    portions of the bands for JOTA. For other Scouting events, use
                    whatever prearranged frequency makes sense for the two groups.
                    The "calling frequencies" invariably fall on an existing QSO or Net.

                    In the end, it all boils down to what equipment you have, what
                    license class you have and what skills you have. Then, do the best
                    to demo Ham Radio and get the Scouts on the air. When we have some
                    bureaucracy dictating the frequencies to use and we get too wrapped
                    up in the legalities then it stops being fun and the kids suffer. A
                    lot of Hams I know are scared away from JOTA and Radio Scouting
                    because of the guidelines (for those who are old hands at JOTA, etc.,
                    take a look at the WOSM Radio Scouting pages, or the ARRL JOTA pages,
                    and you'll see lots of words, which aren't needed for a local third
                    party FM repeater contact). I usually work with them to make contact
                    on a local repeater or simplex VHF/UHF frequency -- and we all have
                    fun.

                    73, Frank KR1ZAN
                    Advisor Venturer Crew 73 - K5BSA
                    Garland, TX



                    --- In scoutradio@yahoogroups.com, "kb1flr" <kb1flr@h...> wrote:
                    > Hi John,
                    >
                    > I would respectfully disagree with your statements regarding the
                    use
                    > of CW. CW IS available to Technicians. Look at the bandplans. All
                    VHF
                    > and UHF allocations have sub bands for CW and SSB and Technicians
                    > have full rights and privileges in these areas. Just because CW is
                    > not required for a Tech license does not mean it cannot be used.
                    >
                    <<<<< Rest of message(s) snipped out >>>>>
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