Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [Scoutradio] Fwd: Re: 20 Meter JOTA CW and PSK31 Conflict

Expand Messages
  • Bill Stewart
    Fred, etal. I agree that Mr. Middlekoop is begging the question. However, with the kids that we have worked with during our JOTA operations, we have not done
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 21, 2003
      Fred, etal. I agree that Mr. Middlekoop is begging the question.
      However, with the kids that we have worked with during our JOTA
      operations, we have not
      done CW because the kids aren't interested in it. They want to hear the
      voice on the other end. They want to talk on the mic to the voice on the
      other end. In a
      nutshell they want to participate hands-on. So, quite honestly making CW
      contacts during JOTA defeats the purpose of JOTA which is to get the
      kids talking
      to each other. That being said, we should drop CW altogether from JOTA.
      Interference problem solved.

      73,

      Bill Stewart, W2BSA

      Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:

      >Last year, this past February, and again earlier this month, I sent a
      >message (copied below) to Richard Middelkoop PA3BAR, JOTA Organizer
      >at the World Scouting Organization in Geneva, Switzerland regarding
      >the conflict between the international PSK31 and JOTA CW frequencies
      >on 20 meters (14.070mhz). I finally received an answer today (copied
      >below).
      >
      >IMHO, Mr. Middelkoop is begging the question by ignoring the problem.
      >By remanding the issue to the "no action" option, he leaves the
      >potential for future conflict between the two modes during every
      >Jamboree On The Air. This, in turn, maintains the potential, and, in
      >the past the occasionally realized public relations problem for
      >Scouting by interference in the now-established and very popular
      >PSK31 subband on 20 meters (14.070mhz) by Scouts and Scouters
      >attempting to make CW contacts on the same frequency. This
      >interference is exacerbated by the bandwidth of a CW (up to 500 hz)
      >signal which would easily override as many as fifteen or twenty
      >narrow bandwidth (31 hz) signals. Further, PSK31 signals are normally
      >weak (typically 10 watts) and a CW operator could easily not hear or
      >disregard such signals before operating on top of them.
      >
      >Carried one step further, a single PSK31 QSO which is interfered with
      >by a JOTA CW signal could have major ramifications against Scouting
      >and JOTA if the PSK operator is a "major player" ("big gun") who
      >decides to, and has the clout to advertise to the world that the
      >World Scouting Organization intentionally and publicly places its
      >20-meter CW frequency on top of the PSK31 subband. I do not think it
      >is in Scouting's best interests to maintain this conflict.
      >
      >It is irrelevant that minimal problems were realized during the 2002
      >JOTA in which only a couple JOTA CW signals were heard for brief
      >times on 14.070 and that there were many PSK31 signals, including a
      >number of JOTA PSK31 stations operating with little apparent
      >interference. This does not preclude major future interference
      >between the two modes during a JOTA. Example: what will happen if
      >some October a major DXpedition to a rare DXCC location (say VP6DI or
      >BS7) decides to operate PSK31 on 14.070 and, in the middle of a
      >pileup, a JOTA CW CQ obliterates the pileup? This is a very realistic
      >possibility: October is a popular month for DXpeditions and PSK31 is
      >a rapidly growing mode among DXpeditioners; sooner or later, there
      >will be conflict.
      >
      >Lastly, if further argument is needed to move the JOTA 20m CW
      >frequency, 14.070 is within/at the lower part of the digital portion
      >of the ARRL's 20-meter band plan and, arguably at the highest part of
      >the CW subband:
      > http://www2.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/bandplan.html (14.070
      >is shown as RTTY);
      >
      >20m subbands more refined:
      > http://www.utexas.edu/students/utarc/license/bandplan.html .
      >Technically, 14.070 is outside the CW subband since the frequency is
      >specifically listed as part of the digital subband.
      >
      >Comments?
      >
      >73 de Fred K2FRD
      >
      >
      >
      >>Reply-To: "Richard Middelkoop" <RMiddelkoop@...>
      >>From: "Richard Middelkoop" <RMiddelkoop@...>
      >>To: "Fred Stevens K2FRD" <K2FRD@...>
      >>Cc: "Ray Moyer" <rmoyer@...>
      >>Subject: Re: 20 Meter JOTA CW and PSK31 Conflict
      >>Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:50:01 +0200
      >>X-Priority: 3
      >>X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine
      >>
      >>Hello Fred,
      >>
      >>Thanks for the email.
      >>
      >>In fact, I researched this matter more closely. None of the National JOTA
      >>Organizers who discussed this in their country with their Amateur Radio
      >>Association indicated that there was indeed a problem during the JOTA
      >>weekend. The CW JOTA frequency is used as a calling frequency, whilst
      >>traffic is put on adjacent frequencies as well. Moreover, the phone mode is
      >>quite dominant during JOTA, with less emphasis on CW. The PSK community does
      >>not seem to be bothered too much by using the JOTA frequency as their
      >>meeting point; their bandwidth use is quite small.
      >>
      >>Therefore I decided not to pursue this matter any further.
      >>
      >>Should it pop up again, we'll have another look at it.
      >>
      >>With best regards,
      >>
      >>Richard Middelkoop
      >>World JOTA Organizer
      >>WOSM Geneva
      >>
      >>----- Original Message -----
      >>From: "Fred Stevens K2FRD" <K2FRD@...>
      >>To: "Middelkoop, Richard PA3BAR" <RMiddelkoop@...>
      >>Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 6:05 PM
      >>Subject: 20 Meter JOTA CW and PSK31 Conflict
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>> Hi Richard--
      >>>
      >>> You might recall that in the fall of last year, I pointed out a
      >>> conflict between the official JOTA CW frequency of 14.070 with the
      >>> now-well-established international PSK31 operations on the same
      >>>
      >>>
      >> > frequency. I conducted PSK31 operations last October on 14.070 at our
      >>
      >>
      >>> local JOTA and found very little CW interference, but a LOT of JOTA
      >>> PSK stations meaning there isn't much of a conflict at all except on
      >>> paper.
      >>>
      >>> However, it might be desirable to officially resolve the seeming
      >>> conflict for future JOTA operations to avoid the potential for
      >>> misunderstanding. It might prove impractical and difficult to have
      >>> the world's tens (hundreds?) of thousands of PSK31 operators suspend
      >>> operations during JOTA; PSK31 is now probably the most popular
      >>> digital mode (not counting CW).
      >>>
      >>> You mentioned last year that you would be contacting the IARU on this
      >>> issue. I am wondering if you have had the chance to do so and, if so,
      >>> what was their response?
      >>>
      >>> Yours In Scouting,
      >>> Fred K2FRD
      >>>
      >>>
      >
      >
      >
    • Fred Stevens K2FRD
      ... Very valid point, Bill. I don t think CW would be missed by many JOTA participants. However, there ARE a few including one at our local JOTA who does CW
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 21, 2003
        At 19:13 -0400 21/04/2003, Bill Stewart wrote:
        >Fred, etal. I agree that Mr. Middlekoop is begging the question.
        >However, with the kids that we have worked with during our JOTA
        >operations, we have not
        >done CW because the kids aren't interested in it. They want to hear the
        >voice on the other end. They want to talk on the mic to the voice on the
        >other end. In a
        >nutshell they want to participate hands-on. So, quite honestly making CW
        >contacts during JOTA defeats the purpose of JOTA which is to get the
        >kids talking
        >to each other. That being said, we should drop CW altogether from JOTA.
        >Interference problem solved.

        Very valid point, Bill. I don't think CW would be missed by many JOTA
        participants. However, there ARE a few including one at our local
        JOTA who does CW for the "advanced" Scouts who seem to enjoy watching
        their words being translated into a visible/audible digital form and
        have their responses come back the same way. But, I could live
        without JOTA CW and I think my friend could also.

        One way or another, I don't think the issue should just sit and
        fester; we get one serious conflict between PSK31 and JOTA CW on
        14.070 and World Scouting in general and the Boy Scouts of America in
        particular gets another black eye, something BSA just doesn't need
        right now (think California Judges and various United Ways).

        --
        73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD
        Chenango Co. (NY) Assistant Emergency Coordinator
        Foothills District, Otschodela Council BSA Committees
        Otschodela Council (BSA) Amateur Radio Group KZ2BSA:
        http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm
        K2FRD Personal Adventure page: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/K2FRD.htm
        Six-County (NY) ARES: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/SCARES.htm
        The OCARG EAGLE monthly Scouting/Ham Radio newsletter:
        http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/Apr03EAGLE.htm ;
        Subscribe to the EAGLE (no cost, no spam, no ads): mailto:K2FRD@... .
      • Bill Stewart
        For those few who want to do CW, don t do it on 14.070. Heck, half the time we are all over the bands making contacts. We run it almost like a contest doing
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 21, 2003
          For those few who want to do CW, don't do it on 14.070. Heck, half the
          time we are all over the bands making contacts. We run it almost like a
          contest doing hunt and pounce
          contacts or putting out a CQ wherever we find an empty spot on the dial.
          It's usually hunt, pounce and talk or CQ Jamboree and talking to whom
          ever comes up and wants to play.
          The so called "advanced" Scouts I know usually HAVE their licenses and
          are helping us do the demo. We've done PSK31 contacts at JOTA, but, we
          usually clobber the CW guys
          because we don't run low power. Now granted we do run barefoot, but,
          we're still running about 100 watts. We usually switch between phone and
          data. We'll use the PSK31
          contacts for demo purposes to show what all we can do beside do the
          "old" things. The kids like watching the waterfall displays and seeing
          one of our operators just click on a signal
          and bring it up. The when the persons talking are finished we come up
          and try to make contact with one or both of them.

          73,

          Bill, W2BSA

          Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:

          >At 19:13 -0400 21/04/2003, Bill Stewart wrote:
          >
          >
          >>Fred, etal. I agree that Mr. Middlekoop is begging the question.
          >>However, with the kids that we have worked with during our JOTA
          >>operations, we have not
          >>done CW because the kids aren't interested in it. They want to hear the
          >>voice on the other end. They want to talk on the mic to the voice on the
          >>other end. In a
          >>nutshell they want to participate hands-on. So, quite honestly making CW
          >>contacts during JOTA defeats the purpose of JOTA which is to get the
          >>kids talking
          >>to each other. That being said, we should drop CW altogether from JOTA.
          >>Interference problem solved.
          >>
          >>
          >
          >Very valid point, Bill. I don't think CW would be missed by many JOTA
          >participants. However, there ARE a few including one at our local
          >JOTA who does CW for the "advanced" Scouts who seem to enjoy watching
          >their words being translated into a visible/audible digital form and
          >have their responses come back the same way. But, I could live
          >without JOTA CW and I think my friend could also.
          >
          >One way or another, I don't think the issue should just sit and
          >fester; we get one serious conflict between PSK31 and JOTA CW on
          >14.070 and World Scouting in general and the Boy Scouts of America in
          >particular gets another black eye, something BSA just doesn't need
          >right now (think California Judges and various United Ways).
          >
          >
          >
        • Fred Stevens K2FRD
          ... We need to get this change made Official. ... I did PSK31 on 14.070 successfully at the 2002 JOTA, but I was only using 10 watts. The Scouts love it since
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 21, 2003
            At 22:33 -0400 21/04/2003, Bill Stewart wrote:
            >For those few who want to do CW, don't do it on 14.070.

            We need to get this change made Official.

            > We've done PSK31 contacts at JOTA, but, we
            >usually clobber the CW guys
            >because we don't run low power. Now granted we do run barefoot, but,
            >we're still running about 100 watts. We usually switch between phone and
            >data. We'll use the PSK31
            >contacts for demo purposes to show what all we can do beside do the
            >"old" things. The kids like watching the waterfall displays and seeing
            >one of our operators just click on a signal
            >and bring it up.

            I did PSK31 on 14.070 successfully at the 2002 JOTA, but I was only
            using 10 watts. The Scouts love it since it's with a computer which
            they understand. They were also entranced with the waterfall display
            and the simplicity of the mode. It's not unlike Instant Messenger
            modes except without the cables, dialup, cable, and modems, and it's
            faster. They also liked the idea of working everything off a car
            battery from a picnic table in the middle of nowhere. But, twice
            during my time at the keyboard, CW signals blocked out all the PSK31
            signals for short intervals. One of them was a CQ, but there was no
            answering CW, so he gave up; I didn't switch over to CW for the other
            signal. For the upcoming JOTA, I think I'll stick exclusively with
            PSK31 and let the other operators play with SSB and CW (but not on
            14.070); we had 13 operators last year, so we have plenty to spare.


            --
            73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD
            Chenango Co. (NY) Assistant Emergency Coordinator
            Foothills District, Otschodela Council BSA Committees
            Otschodela Council (BSA) Amateur Radio Group KZ2BSA:
            http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm
            K2FRD Personal Adventure page: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/K2FRD.htm
            Six-County (NY) ARES: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/SCARES.htm
            The OCARG EAGLE monthly Scouting/Ham Radio newsletter:
            http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/Apr03EAGLE.htm ;
            Subscribe to the EAGLE (no cost, no spam, no ads): mailto:K2FRD@... .
          • Kd5inm@aol.com
            I don t think CW should be used during JOTA. I think we as Hams should focus on aspects of the hobby that are available to a Technician class license. It s
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 22, 2003

                I don't think CW should be used during JOTA. I think we as Hams should focus on aspects of the hobby that are available to a Technician class license. It's kinda ignorant to show them aspects of the hobby in which they will have no involvement in with the ENTRY LEVEL TICKET. Show them what THEY can accomplish in a reasonable time, only the ones who really have an interest in CW will persue CW after JOTA, the rest won't/can't see themselves doing it, it's not beneficial to Ham radio or the scouts to demonstrate CW.
                This is the problem with all the times Amateur radio is shown to the public, some folks do not think about what they are doing. They should demonstrate modes or bands that the scouts will get with the first license they get, (which I'm afraid to pop everyone's bubble), but it's not gonna be 99% of the time a license that gives them access to CW bands on HF.
                JOTA should be a time that we teach the scouts, and show them what is possible with some time spent studying(35 question test), and all the fun they will have BREAKING NEW GROUND. HF is old, it is well established, we basically know what it's gonna do, how it propagates, heck, sometimes we can even predict it, but when you get into microwaves and other aspects of the frequencies they get with the Technician class license, there is plenty of room to actually do something that no other Ham has done before. For instance, set a distance record, or complete a DX QSO when it was before thought impossible.  PSK31 and other digital modes that have gained use in HF because it is something new , one of the few things "New" done at HF in years. The thing is that folks forget, PSK31 and like digital modes aren't just HF modes, they work anyplace, on ANY band, not just HF, some folks forget that, other bands have PSK31 activity, above 30 mhz.
                 I think JOTA is a good project/program, I just feel we should show the scouts what they can accomplish and show them how a Tech license can be used in their activities as Scouts. Show them search and rescue, show them the use of communications on Scout camps, how they can use it to find one another, or to communicate between groups, when doing this, they aren't out with an HF rig, they will most times have a HT(VHF/UHF), show them how they can setup a local camp repeater, then use it to communicate amongst groups. Scouting is great, but how many things can you think of that you might learn as a scout, that you will use the REST OF YOUR LIFE!  Ham radio is one, teach them and get them licensed, then they will take that with them up into their 80's or higher age,  and USE IT . Pitch a tent, or tie a rope into a knot or start a fire, yeah, you are gonna be doing that in the back yard of your house when you are 80-90 years old, not likely, but Ham radio is something they will never outgrow.

                73'  John KD5INM
            • kr1zan
              I like what John is saying here. Last night I was composing a similar message and clicked on the wrong button and lost my message -- probably a good thing!
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 22, 2003
                I like what John is saying here. Last night I was composing a
                similar message and clicked on the wrong button and lost my message --
                probably a good thing!

                Rather than "calling frequencies" for Radio Scouting, how about
                recommended segments of bands for Radio Scouting activities,
                including JOTA. Many times I'm asked for skeds with US and foreign
                Scout units on the International Scouting Frequencies. When the time
                comes, those frequencies and many kHz around them are saturated.
                Sometimes we find each other, sometimes we don't.

                Or, to keep it simple, how about using John's concept and suggest
                recommended US Scouting frequencies as Technician, Tech Plus and
                General allocations to allow as many folks as possible to get on
                compatible frequencies. The guidelines could include frequencies or
                portions of bands that should be avoided or used for specific modes
                (i.e., SSTV, PSK-31, RTTY, etc). If you want a sked, just pick a
                frequency -- all of my skeds have been set up via email or packet, as
                opposed to an implication of using the International Scouting
                Frequency.

                The World Jamboree in Thailand announced they would be on the
                Scouting Frequencies and to the best of my knowledge, they always
                showed up on something other than those frequencies. So, what's the
                purpose of those frequencies anyway? -- use reality when answering
                that question.

                Back to what John was commenting on ... maybe it's time for JOTA to
                become more localized for introductions ... use VHF/UHF and amateur
                radio demos. Scouts who have learned more about Ham Radio, perhaps
                have their licenses, might try to work other radio oriented Scout
                groups using HF or satellites. Even though it's not supposed to be a
                contest, embellish the JOTA patch with a WAC, or WAS, or WAD (Worked
                All call sign Districts) or DX-X, or DX-n (the X is for 10 countries
                confirmed, the n is for some number, perhaps an endorsement). JOTA
                for older Scouts might become a Scouting Field Day.

                Just some thoughts.

                73, Frank KR1ZAN
                Advisor, Venturer Crew 73 - K5BSA
                Richardson, TX

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Kd5inm@...
                To: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 1:07 PM
                Subject: [Scoutradio] 20 Meter JOTA CW and PSK31 Conflict



                I don't think CW should be used during JOTA. I think we as Hams
                should focus on aspects of the hobby that are available to a
                Technician class license. It's kinda ignorant to show them aspects of
                the hobby in which they will have no involvement in with the ENTRY
                LEVEL TICKET. Show them what THEY can accomplish in a reasonable
                time, only the ones who really have an interest in CW will persue CW
                after JOTA, the rest won't/can't see themselves doing it, it's not
                beneficial to Ham radio or the scouts to demonstrate CW.

                <<<<< Rest of message snipped out >>>>>
              • kb1flr
                Hi John, I would respectfully disagree with your statements regarding the use of CW. CW IS available to Technicians. Look at the bandplans. All VHF and UHF
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 28, 2003
                  Hi John,

                  I would respectfully disagree with your statements regarding the use
                  of CW. CW IS available to Technicians. Look at the bandplans. All VHF
                  and UHF allocations have sub bands for CW and SSB and Technicians
                  have full rights and privileges in these areas. Just because CW is
                  not required for a Tech license does not mean it cannot be used.

                  I have given Ham radio demonstrations to my wife's Girl Scout troop,
                  of which my daughter is a member. The kids were so interested in
                  using the oscillator that they would sneak back from the other
                  activities to practice sending. Kids love secret code type stuff and
                  CW seems like that to them.

                  In addition, many children who enter Ham radio feel intimidated by
                  talking to adults on repeaters or HF. CW is a great equalizer in this
                  regard.

                  So please reconsider your view on the use of CW.

                  Best Regards,
                  Rick, KB1FLR
                  --- In scoutradio@yahoogroups.com, Kd5inm@a... wrote:
                  >
                  > I don't think CW should be used during JOTA. I think we as Hams
                  should
                  > focus on aspects of the hobby that are available to a Technician
                  class
                  > license. It's kinda ignorant to show them aspects of the hobby in
                  which they
                  > will have no involvement in with the ENTRY LEVEL TICKET. Show them
                  what THEY
                  > can accomplish in a reasonable time, only the ones who really have
                  an
                  > interest in CW will persue CW after JOTA, the rest won't/can't see
                  themselves
                  > doing it, it's not beneficial to Ham radio or the scouts to
                  demonstrate CW.
                  > This is the problem with all the times Amateur radio is shown to
                  the
                  > public, some folks do not think about what they are doing. They
                  should
                  > demonstrate modes or bands that the scouts will get with the first
                  license
                  > they get, (which I'm afraid to pop everyone's bubble), but it's not
                  gonna be
                  > 99% of the time a license that gives them access to CW bands on HF.
                  > JOTA should be a time that we teach the scouts, and show them
                  what is
                  > possible with some time spent studying(35 question test), and all
                  the fun
                  > they will have BREAKING NEW GROUND. HF is old, it is well
                  established, we
                  > basically know what it's gonna do, how it propagates, heck,
                  sometimes we can
                  > even predict it, but when you get into microwaves and other aspects
                  of the
                  > frequencies they get with the Technician class license, there is
                  plenty of
                  > room to actually do something that no other Ham has done before.
                  For
                  > instance, set a distance record, or complete a DX QSO when it was
                  before
                  > thought impossible. PSK31 and other digital modes that have gained
                  use in HF
                  > because it is something new , one of the few things "New" done at
                  HF in
                  > years. The thing is that folks forget, PSK31 and like digital modes
                  aren't
                  > just HF modes, they work anyplace, on ANY band, not just HF, some
                  folks
                  > forget that, other bands have PSK31 activity, above 30 mhz.
                  > I think JOTA is a good project/program, I just feel we should
                  show the
                  > scouts what they can accomplish and show them how a Tech license
                  can be used
                  > in their activities as Scouts. Show them search and rescue, show
                  them the use
                  > of communications on Scout camps, how they can use it to find one
                  another, or
                  > to communicate between groups, when doing this, they aren't out
                  with an HF
                  > rig, they will most times have a HT(VHF/UHF), show them how they
                  can setup a
                  > local camp repeater, then use it to communicate amongst groups.
                  Scouting is
                  > great, but how many things can you think of that you might learn as
                  a scout,
                  > that you will use the REST OF YOUR LIFE! Ham radio is one, teach
                  them and
                  > get them licensed, then they will take that with them up into their
                  80's or
                  > higher age, and USE IT . Pitch a tent, or tie a rope into a knot
                  or start a
                  > fire, yeah, you are gonna be doing that in the back yard of your
                  house when
                  > you are 80-90 years old, not likely, but Ham radio is something
                  they will
                  > never outgrow.
                  >
                  > 73' John KD5INM
                • Malcolm - G4CXT
                  I would support this point of view. I took radio to one camp which had a spy theme - when I offered to operate CW as a special agent you couldn t get near
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 28, 2003
                    I would support this point of view. I took radio to one camp which had a
                    "spy theme" - when I offered to operate CW as a "special agent" you
                    couldn't get near the radio for the number of kids crowding round to
                    witness it! Granted, they hadn't a clue what was being said, but to say
                    they were intrigued would be an understatement!

                    Its this kind of curiosity which ham radio plays to in adults & children
                    alike - and if CW or PSK31 is what gets them to ask "I wonder if I could do
                    that" then its mission accomplished in my view ... provided you have the
                    means to feed that curiosity, of course.

                    The only issue we have is that the published "Scout frequencies" show a CW
                    calling frequency of 14.070MHz. Where you actually operate of course is
                    entirely up to you. I suspect that precious few Scout to Scout CW QSOs
                    result from random calling (and listening) on 14.070. In fact, I've NEVER
                    listened there for any calls, and seldom operate above 14.060 MHz in any
                    case! In practice therefore I think we are talking about a problem which is
                    most unlikely to occur and if it does which is easily fixed.

                    Despite this there is a case in my view for publishing an alternative Scout
                    calling frequency (eg 14.067 MHz) - and this can only come from the
                    auspices of WOSM to avoid any accusation of conflict with the now
                    recognised & established PSK31 slot at 14.0725 MHz

                    73

                    Malcolm - G4CXT
                    ADC(Scouts) - Woodbridge





                    At , you wrote:
                    >Hi John,
                    >
                    >I would respectfully disagree with your statements regarding the use
                    >of CW. CW IS available to Technicians. Look at the bandplans. All VHF
                    >and UHF allocations have sub bands for CW and SSB and Technicians
                    >have full rights and privileges in these areas. Just because CW is
                    >not required for a Tech license does not mean it cannot be used.
                    >
                    >I have given Ham radio demonstrations to my wife's Girl Scout troop,
                    >of which my daughter is a member. The kids were so interested in
                    >using the oscillator that they would sneak back from the other
                    >activities to practice sending. Kids love secret code type stuff and
                    >CW seems like that to them.
                    >
                    >In addition, many children who enter Ham radio feel intimidated by
                    >talking to adults on repeaters or HF. CW is a great equalizer in this
                    >regard.
                    >
                    >So please reconsider your view on the use of CW.
                    >
                    >Best Regards,
                    >Rick, KB1FLR
                  • kr1zan
                    Hi all, I would argue that you re both correct. CW demonstrations are a lot of fun for the kids, especially when it s a no pressure personal challenge.
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 28, 2003
                      Hi all,

                      I would argue that you're both correct. CW "demonstrations" are a
                      lot of fun for the kids, especially when it's a no pressure personal
                      challenge. When CW is used for an actual on the air contact, the
                      Scouts have no practical idea what's going on, they're spectators,
                      not actual participants. They must take you at your word that the
                      beeps and bonks truly represent what they asked you to send. It's
                      kinda like watching a rock grow. I like the use of voice or keyboard
                      for Scout to Scout contacts.

                      Similar to CW GET that the ARRL used at a teacher's workshop, we
                      often use HamScope or some other tools so the kids can try sending
                      Morse and the computer interprets what they're sending. This is
                      especially useful when you don't have operators who are skilled at CW
                      themselves. A computer off to the side can be a lot of fun for kids
                      to try -- send their name, etc.

                      I would advocate that we get rid of the "calling frequencies" list
                      and recommend the use of Technician, Tech Plus and General Class
                      portions of the bands for JOTA. For other Scouting events, use
                      whatever prearranged frequency makes sense for the two groups.
                      The "calling frequencies" invariably fall on an existing QSO or Net.

                      In the end, it all boils down to what equipment you have, what
                      license class you have and what skills you have. Then, do the best
                      to demo Ham Radio and get the Scouts on the air. When we have some
                      bureaucracy dictating the frequencies to use and we get too wrapped
                      up in the legalities then it stops being fun and the kids suffer. A
                      lot of Hams I know are scared away from JOTA and Radio Scouting
                      because of the guidelines (for those who are old hands at JOTA, etc.,
                      take a look at the WOSM Radio Scouting pages, or the ARRL JOTA pages,
                      and you'll see lots of words, which aren't needed for a local third
                      party FM repeater contact). I usually work with them to make contact
                      on a local repeater or simplex VHF/UHF frequency -- and we all have
                      fun.

                      73, Frank KR1ZAN
                      Advisor Venturer Crew 73 - K5BSA
                      Garland, TX



                      --- In scoutradio@yahoogroups.com, "kb1flr" <kb1flr@h...> wrote:
                      > Hi John,
                      >
                      > I would respectfully disagree with your statements regarding the
                      use
                      > of CW. CW IS available to Technicians. Look at the bandplans. All
                      VHF
                      > and UHF allocations have sub bands for CW and SSB and Technicians
                      > have full rights and privileges in these areas. Just because CW is
                      > not required for a Tech license does not mean it cannot be used.
                      >
                      <<<<< Rest of message(s) snipped out >>>>>
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.