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Fwd: Re: 20 Meter JOTA CW and PSK31 Conflict

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  • Fred Stevens K2FRD
    Last year, this past February, and again earlier this month, I sent a message (copied below) to Richard Middelkoop PA3BAR, JOTA Organizer at the World Scouting
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 21, 2003
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      Last year, this past February, and again earlier this month, I sent a
      message (copied below) to Richard Middelkoop PA3BAR, JOTA Organizer
      at the World Scouting Organization in Geneva, Switzerland regarding
      the conflict between the international PSK31 and JOTA CW frequencies
      on 20 meters (14.070mhz). I finally received an answer today (copied
      below).

      IMHO, Mr. Middelkoop is begging the question by ignoring the problem.
      By remanding the issue to the "no action" option, he leaves the
      potential for future conflict between the two modes during every
      Jamboree On The Air. This, in turn, maintains the potential, and, in
      the past the occasionally realized public relations problem for
      Scouting by interference in the now-established and very popular
      PSK31 subband on 20 meters (14.070mhz) by Scouts and Scouters
      attempting to make CW contacts on the same frequency. This
      interference is exacerbated by the bandwidth of a CW (up to 500 hz)
      signal which would easily override as many as fifteen or twenty
      narrow bandwidth (31 hz) signals. Further, PSK31 signals are normally
      weak (typically 10 watts) and a CW operator could easily not hear or
      disregard such signals before operating on top of them.

      Carried one step further, a single PSK31 QSO which is interfered with
      by a JOTA CW signal could have major ramifications against Scouting
      and JOTA if the PSK operator is a "major player" ("big gun") who
      decides to, and has the clout to advertise to the world that the
      World Scouting Organization intentionally and publicly places its
      20-meter CW frequency on top of the PSK31 subband. I do not think it
      is in Scouting's best interests to maintain this conflict.

      It is irrelevant that minimal problems were realized during the 2002
      JOTA in which only a couple JOTA CW signals were heard for brief
      times on 14.070 and that there were many PSK31 signals, including a
      number of JOTA PSK31 stations operating with little apparent
      interference. This does not preclude major future interference
      between the two modes during a JOTA. Example: what will happen if
      some October a major DXpedition to a rare DXCC location (say VP6DI or
      BS7) decides to operate PSK31 on 14.070 and, in the middle of a
      pileup, a JOTA CW CQ obliterates the pileup? This is a very realistic
      possibility: October is a popular month for DXpeditions and PSK31 is
      a rapidly growing mode among DXpeditioners; sooner or later, there
      will be conflict.

      Lastly, if further argument is needed to move the JOTA 20m CW
      frequency, 14.070 is within/at the lower part of the digital portion
      of the ARRL's 20-meter band plan and, arguably at the highest part of
      the CW subband:
      http://www2.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/bandplan.html (14.070
      is shown as RTTY);

      20m subbands more refined:
      http://www.utexas.edu/students/utarc/license/bandplan.html .
      Technically, 14.070 is outside the CW subband since the frequency is
      specifically listed as part of the digital subband.

      Comments?

      73 de Fred K2FRD

      >Reply-To: "Richard Middelkoop" <RMiddelkoop@...>
      >From: "Richard Middelkoop" <RMiddelkoop@...>
      >To: "Fred Stevens K2FRD" <K2FRD@...>
      >Cc: "Ray Moyer" <rmoyer@...>
      >Subject: Re: 20 Meter JOTA CW and PSK31 Conflict
      >Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:50:01 +0200
      >X-Priority: 3
      >X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine
      >
      >Hello Fred,
      >
      >Thanks for the email.
      >
      >In fact, I researched this matter more closely. None of the National JOTA
      >Organizers who discussed this in their country with their Amateur Radio
      >Association indicated that there was indeed a problem during the JOTA
      >weekend. The CW JOTA frequency is used as a calling frequency, whilst
      >traffic is put on adjacent frequencies as well. Moreover, the phone mode is
      >quite dominant during JOTA, with less emphasis on CW. The PSK community does
      >not seem to be bothered too much by using the JOTA frequency as their
      >meeting point; their bandwidth use is quite small.
      >
      >Therefore I decided not to pursue this matter any further.
      >
      >Should it pop up again, we'll have another look at it.
      >
      >With best regards,
      >
      >Richard Middelkoop
      >World JOTA Organizer
      >WOSM Geneva
      >
      >----- Original Message -----
      >From: "Fred Stevens K2FRD" <K2FRD@...>
      >To: "Middelkoop, Richard PA3BAR" <RMiddelkoop@...>
      >Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 6:05 PM
      >Subject: 20 Meter JOTA CW and PSK31 Conflict
      >
      >
      >> Hi Richard--
      >>
      >> You might recall that in the fall of last year, I pointed out a
      >> conflict between the official JOTA CW frequency of 14.070 with the
      >> now-well-established international PSK31 operations on the same
      > > frequency. I conducted PSK31 operations last October on 14.070 at our
      >> local JOTA and found very little CW interference, but a LOT of JOTA
      >> PSK stations meaning there isn't much of a conflict at all except on
      >> paper.
      >>
      >> However, it might be desirable to officially resolve the seeming
      >> conflict for future JOTA operations to avoid the potential for
      >> misunderstanding. It might prove impractical and difficult to have
      >> the world's tens (hundreds?) of thousands of PSK31 operators suspend
      >> operations during JOTA; PSK31 is now probably the most popular
      >> digital mode (not counting CW).
      >>
      >> You mentioned last year that you would be contacting the IARU on this
      >> issue. I am wondering if you have had the chance to do so and, if so,
      >> what was their response?
      >>
      >> Yours In Scouting,
      >> Fred K2FRD

      --
      73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD
      Chenango Co. (NY) Assistant Emergency Coordinator
      Foothills District, Otschodela Council BSA Committees
      Otschodela Council (BSA) Amateur Radio Group KZ2BSA:
      http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm
      K2FRD Personal Adventure page: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/K2FRD.htm
      Six-County (NY) ARES: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/SCARES.htm
      The OCARG EAGLE monthly Scouting/Ham Radio newsletter:
      http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/Apr03EAGLE.htm ;
      Subscribe to the EAGLE (no cost, no spam, no ads): mailto:K2FRD@... .
    • Bill Stewart
      Fred, etal. I agree that Mr. Middlekoop is begging the question. However, with the kids that we have worked with during our JOTA operations, we have not done
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 21, 2003
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        Fred, etal. I agree that Mr. Middlekoop is begging the question.
        However, with the kids that we have worked with during our JOTA
        operations, we have not
        done CW because the kids aren't interested in it. They want to hear the
        voice on the other end. They want to talk on the mic to the voice on the
        other end. In a
        nutshell they want to participate hands-on. So, quite honestly making CW
        contacts during JOTA defeats the purpose of JOTA which is to get the
        kids talking
        to each other. That being said, we should drop CW altogether from JOTA.
        Interference problem solved.

        73,

        Bill Stewart, W2BSA

        Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:

        >Last year, this past February, and again earlier this month, I sent a
        >message (copied below) to Richard Middelkoop PA3BAR, JOTA Organizer
        >at the World Scouting Organization in Geneva, Switzerland regarding
        >the conflict between the international PSK31 and JOTA CW frequencies
        >on 20 meters (14.070mhz). I finally received an answer today (copied
        >below).
        >
        >IMHO, Mr. Middelkoop is begging the question by ignoring the problem.
        >By remanding the issue to the "no action" option, he leaves the
        >potential for future conflict between the two modes during every
        >Jamboree On The Air. This, in turn, maintains the potential, and, in
        >the past the occasionally realized public relations problem for
        >Scouting by interference in the now-established and very popular
        >PSK31 subband on 20 meters (14.070mhz) by Scouts and Scouters
        >attempting to make CW contacts on the same frequency. This
        >interference is exacerbated by the bandwidth of a CW (up to 500 hz)
        >signal which would easily override as many as fifteen or twenty
        >narrow bandwidth (31 hz) signals. Further, PSK31 signals are normally
        >weak (typically 10 watts) and a CW operator could easily not hear or
        >disregard such signals before operating on top of them.
        >
        >Carried one step further, a single PSK31 QSO which is interfered with
        >by a JOTA CW signal could have major ramifications against Scouting
        >and JOTA if the PSK operator is a "major player" ("big gun") who
        >decides to, and has the clout to advertise to the world that the
        >World Scouting Organization intentionally and publicly places its
        >20-meter CW frequency on top of the PSK31 subband. I do not think it
        >is in Scouting's best interests to maintain this conflict.
        >
        >It is irrelevant that minimal problems were realized during the 2002
        >JOTA in which only a couple JOTA CW signals were heard for brief
        >times on 14.070 and that there were many PSK31 signals, including a
        >number of JOTA PSK31 stations operating with little apparent
        >interference. This does not preclude major future interference
        >between the two modes during a JOTA. Example: what will happen if
        >some October a major DXpedition to a rare DXCC location (say VP6DI or
        >BS7) decides to operate PSK31 on 14.070 and, in the middle of a
        >pileup, a JOTA CW CQ obliterates the pileup? This is a very realistic
        >possibility: October is a popular month for DXpeditions and PSK31 is
        >a rapidly growing mode among DXpeditioners; sooner or later, there
        >will be conflict.
        >
        >Lastly, if further argument is needed to move the JOTA 20m CW
        >frequency, 14.070 is within/at the lower part of the digital portion
        >of the ARRL's 20-meter band plan and, arguably at the highest part of
        >the CW subband:
        > http://www2.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/bandplan.html (14.070
        >is shown as RTTY);
        >
        >20m subbands more refined:
        > http://www.utexas.edu/students/utarc/license/bandplan.html .
        >Technically, 14.070 is outside the CW subband since the frequency is
        >specifically listed as part of the digital subband.
        >
        >Comments?
        >
        >73 de Fred K2FRD
        >
        >
        >
        >>Reply-To: "Richard Middelkoop" <RMiddelkoop@...>
        >>From: "Richard Middelkoop" <RMiddelkoop@...>
        >>To: "Fred Stevens K2FRD" <K2FRD@...>
        >>Cc: "Ray Moyer" <rmoyer@...>
        >>Subject: Re: 20 Meter JOTA CW and PSK31 Conflict
        >>Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:50:01 +0200
        >>X-Priority: 3
        >>X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine
        >>
        >>Hello Fred,
        >>
        >>Thanks for the email.
        >>
        >>In fact, I researched this matter more closely. None of the National JOTA
        >>Organizers who discussed this in their country with their Amateur Radio
        >>Association indicated that there was indeed a problem during the JOTA
        >>weekend. The CW JOTA frequency is used as a calling frequency, whilst
        >>traffic is put on adjacent frequencies as well. Moreover, the phone mode is
        >>quite dominant during JOTA, with less emphasis on CW. The PSK community does
        >>not seem to be bothered too much by using the JOTA frequency as their
        >>meeting point; their bandwidth use is quite small.
        >>
        >>Therefore I decided not to pursue this matter any further.
        >>
        >>Should it pop up again, we'll have another look at it.
        >>
        >>With best regards,
        >>
        >>Richard Middelkoop
        >>World JOTA Organizer
        >>WOSM Geneva
        >>
        >>----- Original Message -----
        >>From: "Fred Stevens K2FRD" <K2FRD@...>
        >>To: "Middelkoop, Richard PA3BAR" <RMiddelkoop@...>
        >>Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 6:05 PM
        >>Subject: 20 Meter JOTA CW and PSK31 Conflict
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>> Hi Richard--
        >>>
        >>> You might recall that in the fall of last year, I pointed out a
        >>> conflict between the official JOTA CW frequency of 14.070 with the
        >>> now-well-established international PSK31 operations on the same
        >>>
        >>>
        >> > frequency. I conducted PSK31 operations last October on 14.070 at our
        >>
        >>
        >>> local JOTA and found very little CW interference, but a LOT of JOTA
        >>> PSK stations meaning there isn't much of a conflict at all except on
        >>> paper.
        >>>
        >>> However, it might be desirable to officially resolve the seeming
        >>> conflict for future JOTA operations to avoid the potential for
        >>> misunderstanding. It might prove impractical and difficult to have
        >>> the world's tens (hundreds?) of thousands of PSK31 operators suspend
        >>> operations during JOTA; PSK31 is now probably the most popular
        >>> digital mode (not counting CW).
        >>>
        >>> You mentioned last year that you would be contacting the IARU on this
        >>> issue. I am wondering if you have had the chance to do so and, if so,
        >>> what was their response?
        >>>
        >>> Yours In Scouting,
        >>> Fred K2FRD
        >>>
        >>>
        >
        >
        >
      • Fred Stevens K2FRD
        ... Very valid point, Bill. I don t think CW would be missed by many JOTA participants. However, there ARE a few including one at our local JOTA who does CW
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 21, 2003
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          At 19:13 -0400 21/04/2003, Bill Stewart wrote:
          >Fred, etal. I agree that Mr. Middlekoop is begging the question.
          >However, with the kids that we have worked with during our JOTA
          >operations, we have not
          >done CW because the kids aren't interested in it. They want to hear the
          >voice on the other end. They want to talk on the mic to the voice on the
          >other end. In a
          >nutshell they want to participate hands-on. So, quite honestly making CW
          >contacts during JOTA defeats the purpose of JOTA which is to get the
          >kids talking
          >to each other. That being said, we should drop CW altogether from JOTA.
          >Interference problem solved.

          Very valid point, Bill. I don't think CW would be missed by many JOTA
          participants. However, there ARE a few including one at our local
          JOTA who does CW for the "advanced" Scouts who seem to enjoy watching
          their words being translated into a visible/audible digital form and
          have their responses come back the same way. But, I could live
          without JOTA CW and I think my friend could also.

          One way or another, I don't think the issue should just sit and
          fester; we get one serious conflict between PSK31 and JOTA CW on
          14.070 and World Scouting in general and the Boy Scouts of America in
          particular gets another black eye, something BSA just doesn't need
          right now (think California Judges and various United Ways).

          --
          73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD
          Chenango Co. (NY) Assistant Emergency Coordinator
          Foothills District, Otschodela Council BSA Committees
          Otschodela Council (BSA) Amateur Radio Group KZ2BSA:
          http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm
          K2FRD Personal Adventure page: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/K2FRD.htm
          Six-County (NY) ARES: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/SCARES.htm
          The OCARG EAGLE monthly Scouting/Ham Radio newsletter:
          http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/Apr03EAGLE.htm ;
          Subscribe to the EAGLE (no cost, no spam, no ads): mailto:K2FRD@... .
        • Bill Stewart
          For those few who want to do CW, don t do it on 14.070. Heck, half the time we are all over the bands making contacts. We run it almost like a contest doing
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 21, 2003
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            For those few who want to do CW, don't do it on 14.070. Heck, half the
            time we are all over the bands making contacts. We run it almost like a
            contest doing hunt and pounce
            contacts or putting out a CQ wherever we find an empty spot on the dial.
            It's usually hunt, pounce and talk or CQ Jamboree and talking to whom
            ever comes up and wants to play.
            The so called "advanced" Scouts I know usually HAVE their licenses and
            are helping us do the demo. We've done PSK31 contacts at JOTA, but, we
            usually clobber the CW guys
            because we don't run low power. Now granted we do run barefoot, but,
            we're still running about 100 watts. We usually switch between phone and
            data. We'll use the PSK31
            contacts for demo purposes to show what all we can do beside do the
            "old" things. The kids like watching the waterfall displays and seeing
            one of our operators just click on a signal
            and bring it up. The when the persons talking are finished we come up
            and try to make contact with one or both of them.

            73,

            Bill, W2BSA

            Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:

            >At 19:13 -0400 21/04/2003, Bill Stewart wrote:
            >
            >
            >>Fred, etal. I agree that Mr. Middlekoop is begging the question.
            >>However, with the kids that we have worked with during our JOTA
            >>operations, we have not
            >>done CW because the kids aren't interested in it. They want to hear the
            >>voice on the other end. They want to talk on the mic to the voice on the
            >>other end. In a
            >>nutshell they want to participate hands-on. So, quite honestly making CW
            >>contacts during JOTA defeats the purpose of JOTA which is to get the
            >>kids talking
            >>to each other. That being said, we should drop CW altogether from JOTA.
            >>Interference problem solved.
            >>
            >>
            >
            >Very valid point, Bill. I don't think CW would be missed by many JOTA
            >participants. However, there ARE a few including one at our local
            >JOTA who does CW for the "advanced" Scouts who seem to enjoy watching
            >their words being translated into a visible/audible digital form and
            >have their responses come back the same way. But, I could live
            >without JOTA CW and I think my friend could also.
            >
            >One way or another, I don't think the issue should just sit and
            >fester; we get one serious conflict between PSK31 and JOTA CW on
            >14.070 and World Scouting in general and the Boy Scouts of America in
            >particular gets another black eye, something BSA just doesn't need
            >right now (think California Judges and various United Ways).
            >
            >
            >
          • Fred Stevens K2FRD
            ... We need to get this change made Official. ... I did PSK31 on 14.070 successfully at the 2002 JOTA, but I was only using 10 watts. The Scouts love it since
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 21, 2003
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              At 22:33 -0400 21/04/2003, Bill Stewart wrote:
              >For those few who want to do CW, don't do it on 14.070.

              We need to get this change made Official.

              > We've done PSK31 contacts at JOTA, but, we
              >usually clobber the CW guys
              >because we don't run low power. Now granted we do run barefoot, but,
              >we're still running about 100 watts. We usually switch between phone and
              >data. We'll use the PSK31
              >contacts for demo purposes to show what all we can do beside do the
              >"old" things. The kids like watching the waterfall displays and seeing
              >one of our operators just click on a signal
              >and bring it up.

              I did PSK31 on 14.070 successfully at the 2002 JOTA, but I was only
              using 10 watts. The Scouts love it since it's with a computer which
              they understand. They were also entranced with the waterfall display
              and the simplicity of the mode. It's not unlike Instant Messenger
              modes except without the cables, dialup, cable, and modems, and it's
              faster. They also liked the idea of working everything off a car
              battery from a picnic table in the middle of nowhere. But, twice
              during my time at the keyboard, CW signals blocked out all the PSK31
              signals for short intervals. One of them was a CQ, but there was no
              answering CW, so he gave up; I didn't switch over to CW for the other
              signal. For the upcoming JOTA, I think I'll stick exclusively with
              PSK31 and let the other operators play with SSB and CW (but not on
              14.070); we had 13 operators last year, so we have plenty to spare.


              --
              73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD
              Chenango Co. (NY) Assistant Emergency Coordinator
              Foothills District, Otschodela Council BSA Committees
              Otschodela Council (BSA) Amateur Radio Group KZ2BSA:
              http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm
              K2FRD Personal Adventure page: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/K2FRD.htm
              Six-County (NY) ARES: http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/SCARES.htm
              The OCARG EAGLE monthly Scouting/Ham Radio newsletter:
              http://home.stny.rr.com/k2frd/Apr03EAGLE.htm ;
              Subscribe to the EAGLE (no cost, no spam, no ads): mailto:K2FRD@... .
            • Kd5inm@aol.com
              I don t think CW should be used during JOTA. I think we as Hams should focus on aspects of the hobby that are available to a Technician class license. It s
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 22, 2003
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                  I don't think CW should be used during JOTA. I think we as Hams should focus on aspects of the hobby that are available to a Technician class license. It's kinda ignorant to show them aspects of the hobby in which they will have no involvement in with the ENTRY LEVEL TICKET. Show them what THEY can accomplish in a reasonable time, only the ones who really have an interest in CW will persue CW after JOTA, the rest won't/can't see themselves doing it, it's not beneficial to Ham radio or the scouts to demonstrate CW.
                  This is the problem with all the times Amateur radio is shown to the public, some folks do not think about what they are doing. They should demonstrate modes or bands that the scouts will get with the first license they get, (which I'm afraid to pop everyone's bubble), but it's not gonna be 99% of the time a license that gives them access to CW bands on HF.
                  JOTA should be a time that we teach the scouts, and show them what is possible with some time spent studying(35 question test), and all the fun they will have BREAKING NEW GROUND. HF is old, it is well established, we basically know what it's gonna do, how it propagates, heck, sometimes we can even predict it, but when you get into microwaves and other aspects of the frequencies they get with the Technician class license, there is plenty of room to actually do something that no other Ham has done before. For instance, set a distance record, or complete a DX QSO when it was before thought impossible.  PSK31 and other digital modes that have gained use in HF because it is something new , one of the few things "New" done at HF in years. The thing is that folks forget, PSK31 and like digital modes aren't just HF modes, they work anyplace, on ANY band, not just HF, some folks forget that, other bands have PSK31 activity, above 30 mhz.
                   I think JOTA is a good project/program, I just feel we should show the scouts what they can accomplish and show them how a Tech license can be used in their activities as Scouts. Show them search and rescue, show them the use of communications on Scout camps, how they can use it to find one another, or to communicate between groups, when doing this, they aren't out with an HF rig, they will most times have a HT(VHF/UHF), show them how they can setup a local camp repeater, then use it to communicate amongst groups. Scouting is great, but how many things can you think of that you might learn as a scout, that you will use the REST OF YOUR LIFE!  Ham radio is one, teach them and get them licensed, then they will take that with them up into their 80's or higher age,  and USE IT . Pitch a tent, or tie a rope into a knot or start a fire, yeah, you are gonna be doing that in the back yard of your house when you are 80-90 years old, not likely, but Ham radio is something they will never outgrow.

                  73'  John KD5INM
              • kr1zan
                I like what John is saying here. Last night I was composing a similar message and clicked on the wrong button and lost my message -- probably a good thing!
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 22, 2003
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                  I like what John is saying here. Last night I was composing a
                  similar message and clicked on the wrong button and lost my message --
                  probably a good thing!

                  Rather than "calling frequencies" for Radio Scouting, how about
                  recommended segments of bands for Radio Scouting activities,
                  including JOTA. Many times I'm asked for skeds with US and foreign
                  Scout units on the International Scouting Frequencies. When the time
                  comes, those frequencies and many kHz around them are saturated.
                  Sometimes we find each other, sometimes we don't.

                  Or, to keep it simple, how about using John's concept and suggest
                  recommended US Scouting frequencies as Technician, Tech Plus and
                  General allocations to allow as many folks as possible to get on
                  compatible frequencies. The guidelines could include frequencies or
                  portions of bands that should be avoided or used for specific modes
                  (i.e., SSTV, PSK-31, RTTY, etc). If you want a sked, just pick a
                  frequency -- all of my skeds have been set up via email or packet, as
                  opposed to an implication of using the International Scouting
                  Frequency.

                  The World Jamboree in Thailand announced they would be on the
                  Scouting Frequencies and to the best of my knowledge, they always
                  showed up on something other than those frequencies. So, what's the
                  purpose of those frequencies anyway? -- use reality when answering
                  that question.

                  Back to what John was commenting on ... maybe it's time for JOTA to
                  become more localized for introductions ... use VHF/UHF and amateur
                  radio demos. Scouts who have learned more about Ham Radio, perhaps
                  have their licenses, might try to work other radio oriented Scout
                  groups using HF or satellites. Even though it's not supposed to be a
                  contest, embellish the JOTA patch with a WAC, or WAS, or WAD (Worked
                  All call sign Districts) or DX-X, or DX-n (the X is for 10 countries
                  confirmed, the n is for some number, perhaps an endorsement). JOTA
                  for older Scouts might become a Scouting Field Day.

                  Just some thoughts.

                  73, Frank KR1ZAN
                  Advisor, Venturer Crew 73 - K5BSA
                  Richardson, TX

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Kd5inm@...
                  To: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 1:07 PM
                  Subject: [Scoutradio] 20 Meter JOTA CW and PSK31 Conflict



                  I don't think CW should be used during JOTA. I think we as Hams
                  should focus on aspects of the hobby that are available to a
                  Technician class license. It's kinda ignorant to show them aspects of
                  the hobby in which they will have no involvement in with the ENTRY
                  LEVEL TICKET. Show them what THEY can accomplish in a reasonable
                  time, only the ones who really have an interest in CW will persue CW
                  after JOTA, the rest won't/can't see themselves doing it, it's not
                  beneficial to Ham radio or the scouts to demonstrate CW.

                  <<<<< Rest of message snipped out >>>>>
                • kb1flr
                  Hi John, I would respectfully disagree with your statements regarding the use of CW. CW IS available to Technicians. Look at the bandplans. All VHF and UHF
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 28, 2003
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                    Hi John,

                    I would respectfully disagree with your statements regarding the use
                    of CW. CW IS available to Technicians. Look at the bandplans. All VHF
                    and UHF allocations have sub bands for CW and SSB and Technicians
                    have full rights and privileges in these areas. Just because CW is
                    not required for a Tech license does not mean it cannot be used.

                    I have given Ham radio demonstrations to my wife's Girl Scout troop,
                    of which my daughter is a member. The kids were so interested in
                    using the oscillator that they would sneak back from the other
                    activities to practice sending. Kids love secret code type stuff and
                    CW seems like that to them.

                    In addition, many children who enter Ham radio feel intimidated by
                    talking to adults on repeaters or HF. CW is a great equalizer in this
                    regard.

                    So please reconsider your view on the use of CW.

                    Best Regards,
                    Rick, KB1FLR
                    --- In scoutradio@yahoogroups.com, Kd5inm@a... wrote:
                    >
                    > I don't think CW should be used during JOTA. I think we as Hams
                    should
                    > focus on aspects of the hobby that are available to a Technician
                    class
                    > license. It's kinda ignorant to show them aspects of the hobby in
                    which they
                    > will have no involvement in with the ENTRY LEVEL TICKET. Show them
                    what THEY
                    > can accomplish in a reasonable time, only the ones who really have
                    an
                    > interest in CW will persue CW after JOTA, the rest won't/can't see
                    themselves
                    > doing it, it's not beneficial to Ham radio or the scouts to
                    demonstrate CW.
                    > This is the problem with all the times Amateur radio is shown to
                    the
                    > public, some folks do not think about what they are doing. They
                    should
                    > demonstrate modes or bands that the scouts will get with the first
                    license
                    > they get, (which I'm afraid to pop everyone's bubble), but it's not
                    gonna be
                    > 99% of the time a license that gives them access to CW bands on HF.
                    > JOTA should be a time that we teach the scouts, and show them
                    what is
                    > possible with some time spent studying(35 question test), and all
                    the fun
                    > they will have BREAKING NEW GROUND. HF is old, it is well
                    established, we
                    > basically know what it's gonna do, how it propagates, heck,
                    sometimes we can
                    > even predict it, but when you get into microwaves and other aspects
                    of the
                    > frequencies they get with the Technician class license, there is
                    plenty of
                    > room to actually do something that no other Ham has done before.
                    For
                    > instance, set a distance record, or complete a DX QSO when it was
                    before
                    > thought impossible. PSK31 and other digital modes that have gained
                    use in HF
                    > because it is something new , one of the few things "New" done at
                    HF in
                    > years. The thing is that folks forget, PSK31 and like digital modes
                    aren't
                    > just HF modes, they work anyplace, on ANY band, not just HF, some
                    folks
                    > forget that, other bands have PSK31 activity, above 30 mhz.
                    > I think JOTA is a good project/program, I just feel we should
                    show the
                    > scouts what they can accomplish and show them how a Tech license
                    can be used
                    > in their activities as Scouts. Show them search and rescue, show
                    them the use
                    > of communications on Scout camps, how they can use it to find one
                    another, or
                    > to communicate between groups, when doing this, they aren't out
                    with an HF
                    > rig, they will most times have a HT(VHF/UHF), show them how they
                    can setup a
                    > local camp repeater, then use it to communicate amongst groups.
                    Scouting is
                    > great, but how many things can you think of that you might learn as
                    a scout,
                    > that you will use the REST OF YOUR LIFE! Ham radio is one, teach
                    them and
                    > get them licensed, then they will take that with them up into their
                    80's or
                    > higher age, and USE IT . Pitch a tent, or tie a rope into a knot
                    or start a
                    > fire, yeah, you are gonna be doing that in the back yard of your
                    house when
                    > you are 80-90 years old, not likely, but Ham radio is something
                    they will
                    > never outgrow.
                    >
                    > 73' John KD5INM
                  • Malcolm - G4CXT
                    I would support this point of view. I took radio to one camp which had a spy theme - when I offered to operate CW as a special agent you couldn t get near
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 28, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I would support this point of view. I took radio to one camp which had a
                      "spy theme" - when I offered to operate CW as a "special agent" you
                      couldn't get near the radio for the number of kids crowding round to
                      witness it! Granted, they hadn't a clue what was being said, but to say
                      they were intrigued would be an understatement!

                      Its this kind of curiosity which ham radio plays to in adults & children
                      alike - and if CW or PSK31 is what gets them to ask "I wonder if I could do
                      that" then its mission accomplished in my view ... provided you have the
                      means to feed that curiosity, of course.

                      The only issue we have is that the published "Scout frequencies" show a CW
                      calling frequency of 14.070MHz. Where you actually operate of course is
                      entirely up to you. I suspect that precious few Scout to Scout CW QSOs
                      result from random calling (and listening) on 14.070. In fact, I've NEVER
                      listened there for any calls, and seldom operate above 14.060 MHz in any
                      case! In practice therefore I think we are talking about a problem which is
                      most unlikely to occur and if it does which is easily fixed.

                      Despite this there is a case in my view for publishing an alternative Scout
                      calling frequency (eg 14.067 MHz) - and this can only come from the
                      auspices of WOSM to avoid any accusation of conflict with the now
                      recognised & established PSK31 slot at 14.0725 MHz

                      73

                      Malcolm - G4CXT
                      ADC(Scouts) - Woodbridge





                      At , you wrote:
                      >Hi John,
                      >
                      >I would respectfully disagree with your statements regarding the use
                      >of CW. CW IS available to Technicians. Look at the bandplans. All VHF
                      >and UHF allocations have sub bands for CW and SSB and Technicians
                      >have full rights and privileges in these areas. Just because CW is
                      >not required for a Tech license does not mean it cannot be used.
                      >
                      >I have given Ham radio demonstrations to my wife's Girl Scout troop,
                      >of which my daughter is a member. The kids were so interested in
                      >using the oscillator that they would sneak back from the other
                      >activities to practice sending. Kids love secret code type stuff and
                      >CW seems like that to them.
                      >
                      >In addition, many children who enter Ham radio feel intimidated by
                      >talking to adults on repeaters or HF. CW is a great equalizer in this
                      >regard.
                      >
                      >So please reconsider your view on the use of CW.
                      >
                      >Best Regards,
                      >Rick, KB1FLR
                    • kr1zan
                      Hi all, I would argue that you re both correct. CW demonstrations are a lot of fun for the kids, especially when it s a no pressure personal challenge.
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 28, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi all,

                        I would argue that you're both correct. CW "demonstrations" are a
                        lot of fun for the kids, especially when it's a no pressure personal
                        challenge. When CW is used for an actual on the air contact, the
                        Scouts have no practical idea what's going on, they're spectators,
                        not actual participants. They must take you at your word that the
                        beeps and bonks truly represent what they asked you to send. It's
                        kinda like watching a rock grow. I like the use of voice or keyboard
                        for Scout to Scout contacts.

                        Similar to CW GET that the ARRL used at a teacher's workshop, we
                        often use HamScope or some other tools so the kids can try sending
                        Morse and the computer interprets what they're sending. This is
                        especially useful when you don't have operators who are skilled at CW
                        themselves. A computer off to the side can be a lot of fun for kids
                        to try -- send their name, etc.

                        I would advocate that we get rid of the "calling frequencies" list
                        and recommend the use of Technician, Tech Plus and General Class
                        portions of the bands for JOTA. For other Scouting events, use
                        whatever prearranged frequency makes sense for the two groups.
                        The "calling frequencies" invariably fall on an existing QSO or Net.

                        In the end, it all boils down to what equipment you have, what
                        license class you have and what skills you have. Then, do the best
                        to demo Ham Radio and get the Scouts on the air. When we have some
                        bureaucracy dictating the frequencies to use and we get too wrapped
                        up in the legalities then it stops being fun and the kids suffer. A
                        lot of Hams I know are scared away from JOTA and Radio Scouting
                        because of the guidelines (for those who are old hands at JOTA, etc.,
                        take a look at the WOSM Radio Scouting pages, or the ARRL JOTA pages,
                        and you'll see lots of words, which aren't needed for a local third
                        party FM repeater contact). I usually work with them to make contact
                        on a local repeater or simplex VHF/UHF frequency -- and we all have
                        fun.

                        73, Frank KR1ZAN
                        Advisor Venturer Crew 73 - K5BSA
                        Garland, TX



                        --- In scoutradio@yahoogroups.com, "kb1flr" <kb1flr@h...> wrote:
                        > Hi John,
                        >
                        > I would respectfully disagree with your statements regarding the
                        use
                        > of CW. CW IS available to Technicians. Look at the bandplans. All
                        VHF
                        > and UHF allocations have sub bands for CW and SSB and Technicians
                        > have full rights and privileges in these areas. Just because CW is
                        > not required for a Tech license does not mean it cannot be used.
                        >
                        <<<<< Rest of message(s) snipped out >>>>>
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