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Re: [scoutradio] Car Caravans...

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  • Gary W Thorburn
    As someone else correctly pointed out, the Guide to Safe Scouting uses the term Convoy rather than Caravan . Nevertheless, the practice is discouraged. The
    Message 1 of 14 , May 12, 2002
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      As someone else correctly pointed out, the Guide to Safe Scouting uses the term
      "Convoy" rather than "Caravan".  Nevertheless, the practice is discouraged.
       
      The basic problem is this:  when you attempt to maintain a caravan, you are
      asking drivers to add one more issue to the list of things they need to concern
      themselves with when transporting a carload of scouts.  Typically our trips leave
      in busy Friday evening traffic, and head out onto congested interstates.  A sequence
      of cars parades out of the lot, often with CB radios in the first and last car.   The
      radio-less drivers in the middle are usually occasional parent volunteers, and
      this may be their first trip driving with us.   We do not maintain a bumper-to
      bumper convoy, but the middle drivers are expected to stay in sequence.
      None of the other zillion Friday drivers have any idea that we are travelling together,
      nor can they be expected to defer to our little parade.  Yet I have heard the lead
      and sweeper cars negotiate on the radio schemes to "open up" spots in
      lanes for our other drivers, or juggle positions to maintain the sequence.
      This is just plain hazardous.  Our drivers are all capable of negotiating the
      road on their own when out on a family outing, why make it more challenging
      when driving scouts?  The inconvenience incurred when one driver makes
      a wrong turn is small indeed compared to any scheme designed to keep
      drivers in line.
       
      I have also seen the lead car pull over and stop after he thought that the whole
      caravan didn't make it through a light, in a congested area.  The caravanning
      drivers behind him must choose between the safe alternative, which is
      to continue on until a safe pullout can be found, thereby breaking the sequence,
      or pulling over where ever they are, possibly creating a hazard, and expecting
      all the other unsuspecting Friday drivers to pass our parade.  Then, when
      the light changes and our guys come on through, we all hop out into the traffic
      at once, which presents another unusual challenge for all.
       
      The problem with caravanning in a nutshell:  It asks our drivers to make
      a choice they should not have to make:  either to employ the good
      driving skills that they would use driving solo, or to exhibit their identity with
      and support for the troop by playing a little game, possibly compromising
      driving safety.
       
      To get back to the radio point of all this, having a couple cars with radios
      can certainly be a safety and convenience boon.  Without enforcing any
      kind of caravan, one driver can agree at the outset to drag behind a bit,
      watching for any car that may have trouble, or was observed to have made
      a wrong turn, and notify another driver that he will tarry behind to see what
      the problem is.  This achieves any supposed benefit of a caravan without
      involving its hazards.
       
      Gary W Thorburn  KD1TE
       
       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Frosty6981@... <Frosty6981@...>
      To: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com <scoutradio@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Sunday, May 12, 2002 7:49 PM
      Subject: Re: [scoutradio] Car Caravans...

      Im just a scout so I'm in the dark about the danger of caravaning.  Could some one explan to me what makes it so dangerious.  I can see what makes it safe but not unsafe.

    • kr1zan
      Hi everyone, I just looked at the current Local Tour Permit on the National BSA web site. It no longer mentions convoy. The wording is: 18. If more than
      Message 2 of 14 , May 12, 2002
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        Hi everyone,

        I just looked at the current Local Tour Permit on the National BSA
        web site. It no longer mentions "convoy." The wording is:

        "18. If more than one vehicle is used to transport our group, we will
        establish rendezvous points at the start of each day and not attempt
        to have drivers closely follow the group veicle in front of them."

        The National Tour Permit doesn't even mention "convoy" or "caravan"
        or anything about following too closely.

        The "Guide to Safe Scouting" continues to state:
        "10. Do not travel in convoy."

        I certainly agree with Gary's comments. I think a lot of the
        convoying or caravaning results from poor planning.
        The 'volunteers', as Gary called them, don't have a map, don't know
        where they're going, don't feel comfortable with the route, etc. By
        following in a caravan, they can watch the car in front and hope that
        someone else is watching out for them. In many cases, the drivers do
        have maps, but habit suggests we travel as a group (a caravan).

        Frank KR1ZAN
        Advisor, Venturer Crew 73 - K5BSA
        Plano, Texas


        --- In scoutradio@y..., "Gary W Thorburn" <gary@t...> wrote:
        > As someone else correctly pointed out, the Guide to Safe Scouting
        uses the term
        > "Convoy" rather than "Caravan". Nevertheless, the practice is
        discouraged.
        >
        > The basic problem is this: when you attempt to maintain a caravan,
        you are
        > asking drivers to add one more issue to the list of things they
        need to concern
        > themselves with when transporting a carload of scouts. Typically
        our trips leave
        > in busy Friday evening traffic, and head out onto congested
        interstates. A sequence
        > of cars parades out of the lot, often with CB radios in the first
        and last car. The
        > radio-less drivers in the middle are usually occasional parent
        volunteers, and
        > this may be their first trip driving with us. We do not maintain
        a bumper-to
        > bumper convoy, but the middle drivers are expected to stay in
        sequence.
        > None of the other zillion Friday drivers have any idea that we are
        travelling together,
        > nor can they be expected to defer to our little parade. Yet I have
        heard the lead
        > and sweeper cars negotiate on the radio schemes to "open up" spots
        in
        > lanes for our other drivers, or juggle positions to maintain the
        sequence.
        > This is just plain hazardous. Our drivers are all capable of
        negotiating the
        > road on their own when out on a family outing, why make it more
        challenging
        > when driving scouts? The inconvenience incurred when one driver
        makes
        > a wrong turn is small indeed compared to any scheme designed to keep
        > drivers in line.
        >
        > I have also seen the lead car pull over and stop after he thought
        that the whole
        > caravan didn't make it through a light, in a congested area. The
        caravanning
        > drivers behind him must choose between the safe alternative, which
        is
        > to continue on until a safe pullout can be found, thereby breaking
        the sequence,
        > or pulling over where ever they are, possibly creating a hazard,
        and expecting
        > all the other unsuspecting Friday drivers to pass our parade.
        Then, when
        > the light changes and our guys come on through, we all hop out into
        the traffic
        > at once, which presents another unusual challenge for all.
        >
        > The problem with caravanning in a nutshell: It asks our drivers to
        make
        > a choice they should not have to make: either to employ the good
        > driving skills that they would use driving solo, or to exhibit
        their identity with
        > and support for the troop by playing a little game, possibly
        compromising
        > driving safety.
        >
        > To get back to the radio point of all this, having a couple cars
        with radios
        > can certainly be a safety and convenience boon. Without enforcing
        any
        > kind of caravan, one driver can agree at the outset to drag behind
        a bit,
        > watching for any car that may have trouble, or was observed to have
        made
        > a wrong turn, and notify another driver that he will tarry behind
        to see what
        > the problem is. This achieves any supposed benefit of a caravan
        without
        > involving its hazards.
        >
        > Gary W Thorburn KD1TE
        > gary@t...
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Frosty6981@a... <Frosty6981@a...>
        > To: scoutradio@y... <scoutradio@y...>
        > Date: Sunday, May 12, 2002 7:49 PM
        > Subject: Re: [scoutradio] Car Caravans...
        >
        >
        > Im just a scout so I'm in the dark about the danger of
        caravaning. Could some one explan to me what makes it so
        dangerious. I can see what makes it safe but not unsafe.
      • Richard A. Blank
        From experience, I can tell you that when one driver has to stop suddenly, you hope that everyone behind that driver can stop in time. I have had two
        Message 3 of 14 , May 12, 2002
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          From experience, I can tell you that when one driver has to stop suddenly, you hope that everyone behind that driver can stop in time.  I have had two experiences where we got very lucky both times that we did not have a serious accident.  One other time, though not serious two drivers on behind the other did hit each other on the way home from a camping trip.

          It's that sudden need to stop that makes it unsafe.

          Frosty6981@... wrote:

           Im just a scout so I'm in the dark about the danger of caravaning.  Could some one explan to me what makes it so dangerious.  I can see what makes it safe but not unsafe.

          In a message dated 5/12/02 6:40:32 PM Central Daylight Time, gary@... writes:
           

          Subj:Re: [scoutradio] Car Caravans...
          Date:5/12/02 6:40:32 PM Central Daylight Time
          From:gary@...
          Reply-to:scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
          To:scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
          Sent from the Internet
           
           

          When you sign a Tour Permit, you agree to respect a list of safety guidelines printed
          on that form.  One of those is that you acknowledge that "caravanning" is an unsafe
          practice and that you will not attempt to maintain a caravan of vehicles on public
          roads.  I personally agree fully with that perspective; and can give you examples of
          actions taken on the road taken to maintain a caravan, that have put our troop in some
          jeapordy.  But I have been overruled by our troop leadership, who believes that we
          can best express respect for these rules by violating them.  After all, it must be safe,
          because we have always done it, and it makes us feel special on the road.

          Why do we sign a Tour Permit anyway?  Because this is the instrument by which
          the BSA recognizes your event as a BSA activity, covered by the BSA liability
          insurance, which I expect is a good chunk of the hefty "chartering" fees.

          Gary Thorburn  KD1TE
          gary@...
           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Carter J Wood <carterjwood@...>
          To: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com <scoutradio@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Sunday, May 12, 2002 10:38 AM
          Subject: [scoutradio] Car Caravans...
           

          have been gone for several years.  Use "The Guide to
          Safe Scouting" as a reference.

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          73, Reid KCØIDI

          Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

          Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

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          Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

          ScoutRadio start page:
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          Post message: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
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        • Roger Woods
          Could we please take this to somewhere where it is ON TOPIC! This has nothing to do with Radio and I am totally unconcered about BSA rules and regs unless they
          Message 4 of 14 , May 12, 2002
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            Could we please take this to somewhere where it is ON TOPIC!

            This has nothing to do with Radio and I am totally unconcered about BSA rules and regs unless they effect radio.

            Sorry guys but this is getting out of hand.

            Roger G8XAN
          • Bill Stewart
            Here, Here!!!! 73, Bill Stewart, W2BSA
            Message 5 of 14 , May 13, 2002
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              Here, Here!!!!

              73,

              Bill Stewart, W2BSA

              Roger Woods wrote:

              > Could we please take this to somewhere where it is ON TOPIC!
              >
              > This has nothing to do with Radio and I am totally unconcered about
              > BSA rules and regs unless they effect radio.
              >
              > Sorry guys but this is getting out of hand.
              >
              > Roger G8XAN
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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              >
              > Height: ft in
              > Weight:
              > Sex: F M
              >
              >
              > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
              >
              > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
              > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
              >
              > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
              > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
              >
              > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
              >
              > ScoutRadio start page:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scoutradio (Email archives - member
              > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
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            • Bob Bruninga
              ... Wow, I disagree completely. The rules on CONVOY and (incorrect interpretation as it applies to caravans) is exactly a RADIO issue. Knowing and
              Message 6 of 14 , May 13, 2002
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                > Could we please take this to somewhere where it is ON TOPIC! This has
                > nothing to do with Radio and I am totally unconcered about BSA rules and
                > regs unless they effect radio.

                Wow, I disagree completely. The rules on CONVOY and (incorrect
                interpretation as it applies to caravans) is exactly a RADIO issue.
                Knowing and understanding the safety guidelines helps us integrate RADIO
                into the scout training and education programs. Vehicles traveling to a
                SCOUT venue is the #1 application for radio!

                How to get BSA to endores RADIO and to make it a part of the Scouting
                learning experience is my #1 goal in subscribing to this list. We must
                find a way to get RADIO education into the souting program (I think it
                should be a TENDERFOOT requirement to know about FRS, PL tones, Squelch
                and how to operate a radio).

                If we dont get this FRS mess under some LEADERSHIP we as HAMS are going to
                suffer as "radio" becomes a "toy", banned from all venue's due to the
                illiteracy of the few...

                See my SHACKS-4-PACKS project:

                http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/shacks4packs.html

                And read it carefully. It is not just a SHED. It is a foot in the door
                to get BSA to recognize RADIO as something that MUST BE TAUGHT.

                de WB4APR, Bob
              • Bill Stewart
                Couldn t agree with you more Bob. I said Here, Here because we were getting bogged down with the ad nausium quoting and re-quoting of BSA regs and NO-ONE
                Message 7 of 14 , May 13, 2002
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                  Couldn't agree with you more Bob. I said "Here, Here" because we were
                  getting bogged down with the ad nausium quoting and
                  re-quoting of BSA regs and NO-ONE saying anything useful.
                  The best way I know of to avoid the caravan issue is to get everyone FRS
                  or even better GET LICENSED. Running mobile on simplex
                  is far better than FRS since your range is much longer. You don't have
                  to see the next car.
                  If you are the leader you can tell others where you are going.

                  My 2 cents

                  Bill Stewart, W2BSA

                  Bob Bruninga wrote:

                  > > Could we please take this to somewhere where it is ON TOPIC! This has
                  > > nothing to do with Radio and I am totally unconcered about BSA rules and
                  > > regs unless they effect radio.
                  >
                  > Wow, I disagree completely. The rules on CONVOY and (incorrect
                  > interpretation as it applies to caravans) is exactly a RADIO issue.
                  > Knowing and understanding the safety guidelines helps us integrate RADIO
                  > into the scout training and education programs. Vehicles traveling to a
                  > SCOUT venue is the #1 application for radio!
                  >
                  > How to get BSA to endores RADIO and to make it a part of the Scouting
                  > learning experience is my #1 goal in subscribing to this list. We must
                  > find a way to get RADIO education into the souting program (I think it
                  > should be a TENDERFOOT requirement to know about FRS, PL tones, Squelch
                  > and how to operate a radio).
                  >
                  > If we dont get this FRS mess under some LEADERSHIP we as HAMS are going to
                  > suffer as "radio" becomes a "toy", banned from all venue's due to the
                  > illiteracy of the few...
                  >
                  > See my SHACKS-4-PACKS project:
                  >
                  > http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/shacks4packs.html
                  > <http://www.ew.usna.edu/%7Ebruninga/shacks4packs.html>
                  >
                  > And read it carefully. It is not just a SHED. It is a foot in the door
                  > to get BSA to recognize RADIO as something that MUST BE TAUGHT.
                  >
                  > de WB4APR, Bob
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > ADVERTISEMENT
                  >
                  >
                  > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                  >
                  > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                  > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                  >
                  > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                  > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                  >
                  > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                  >
                  > ScoutRadio start page:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scoutradio (Email archives - member
                  > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
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                • Roger Woods
                  Sorry but I see little correlation discuss Radio by all means but remember that: 1. This list is international. 2. Your problem appears to be specific to BSA -
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 13, 2002
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                    Sorry but I see little correlation discuss Radio by all means but remember that:

                    1. This list is international.
                    2. Your problem appears to be specific to BSA - we have Scout radio badges in UK.
                    3. In most of the arguments I saw little to do with radio and more about stopping, maps routes etc.


                    Take it to your own scouting group news topic. Please.

                    Thanks

                    Roger G8XAN

                    p.s. I could also chat re foundation licence and Scouts but would not - its more appropriate to UK and their channels.
                  • Bill Stewart
                    Roger I would dare say that the problem is not limited to BSA. I m sure that the equivalent publication in the UK to our Guide to Safe Scouting addresses the
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 13, 2002
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                      Roger I would dare say that the problem is not limited to BSA. I'm sure
                      that the equivalent publication in the UK to our "Guide to Safe
                      Scouting" addresses the
                      issue as well. The point that BOB and I make is that RADIO is a solution
                      to the problem. We should be encouraging all of our Leaders to learn
                      about RADIO
                      and teach the youngsters about RADIO's uses. Our various RADIO Merit
                      badges are only one way to do it.

                      73,

                      Bill, W2BSA

                      Roger Woods wrote:

                      > Sorry but I see little correlation discuss Radio by all means but
                      > remember that:
                      >
                      > 1. This list is international.
                      > 2. Your problem appears to be specific to BSA - we have Scout radio
                      > badges in UK.
                      > 3. In most of the arguments I saw little to do with radio and more
                      > about stopping, maps routes etc.
                      >
                      >
                      > Take it to your own scouting group news topic. Please.
                      >
                      > Thanks
                      >
                      > Roger G8XAN
                      >
                      > p.s. I could also chat re foundation licence and Scouts but would not
                      > - its more appropriate to UK and their channels.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > ADVERTISEMENT
                      >
                      >
                      > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                      >
                      > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                      > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                      >
                      > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                      > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                      >
                      > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                      >
                      > ScoutRadio start page:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scoutradio (Email archives - member
                      > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                      >
                      > Post message: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
                      > Unsubscribe: scoutradio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > List owner: scoutradio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                      > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                    • Carter J Wood
                      Here s another idea - let s all just gripe and grouse at each other - pick apart every statement and opinion as if the whole world of Ham Radio and Scouting
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 13, 2002
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                        Here's another idea - let's all just gripe and grouse
                        at each other - pick apart every statement and opinion
                        as if the whole world of Ham Radio and Scouting
                        pivoted on the most minor point. A Scout is Cheerful.

                        Maybe I'm lucky - my email does not charge for every
                        message and it does have a 'Delete' key for any note
                        that might offend my sensitivities.


                        AG4LK

                        =====
                        Carter J Wood
                        SE288, SR-X, NAUMS
                        Council Commissioner
                        Northeast Georgia Council

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                      • Fred Stevens K2FRD
                        ... I wouldn t mind hearing about the foundation license and UK Scouting. I know little about either. -- 73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD Chenango Co. (NY) Assistant
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 13, 2002
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                          At 18:27 +0100 13/05/2002, Roger Woods wrote:
                          >
                          >p.s. I could also chat re foundation licence and Scouts but would
                          >not - its more appropriate to UK and their channels.

                          I wouldn't mind hearing about the foundation license and UK Scouting.
                          I know little about either.
                          --
                          73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD
                          Chenango Co. (NY) Assistant Emergency Coordinator
                          Foothills District, Otschodela Council BSA Committees
                          Otschodela Council Amateur Radio Group http://www.ascent.net/thefred/ocarg.htm
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