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Re: [scoutradio] Digest Number 275

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  • Thomas L. Doligalski
    We have had trouble with FRS units interfering with outhers... that is , individual scouts using FRS inappropriately. As a result, we ban all FRS radios for
    Message 1 of 15 , May 12 4:10 PM
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      We have had trouble with FRS units interfering with outhers... that is ,
      individual
      scouts using FRS inappropriately. As a result, we ban all FRS radios for use
      with
      scouts. Leaders often use FRS to communicate between themselves when
      driving.

      That said, we ENCOURGE scouts who hold ham radio licenses to bring hand
      helds...
      they are much more cognizant of "good-radio" policy!

      73

      - Tom, W4KX
      Troop 210 TCC
      Occonecchee Council

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <scoutradio@yahoogroups.com>
      To: <scoutradio@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 3:28 PM
      Subject: [scoutradio] Digest Number 275



      Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

      Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
      to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

      Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
      http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

      Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

      ScoutRadio start page:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scoutradio (Email archives - member email
      addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

      Post message: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
      Unsubscribe: scoutradio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      List owner: scoutradio-owner@yahoogroups.com

      SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------

      There are 9 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Dayton?
      From: Frosty6981@...
      2. Re: Dayton?
      From: Milt Forsberg <miltf@...>
      3. Re: Digest Number 273
      From: ray@...
      4. Re: Digest Number 273
      From: "Joseph W. Nolan" <jnolan@...>
      5. Re: Digest Number 273
      From: "Ray Brown" <raybrown@...>
      6. Re: Digest Number 273
      From: Michael Derek Barnett <mdb@...>
      7. Car Caravans...
      From: Carter J Wood <carterjwood@...>
      8. RE: Digest Number 273
      From: "Thomas H. Bosworth" <bsa13@...>
      9. Caravans and Convoys
      From: "kr1zan" <kr1zan@...>


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 1
      Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 19:28:53 EDT
      From: Frosty6981@...
      Subject: Re: Dayton?

      I have not been to Dayton before, I heard that 2m is really crowed, Is it
      so
      bad that we would have to use FRS or can we use 2m or 440?

      In a message dated 5/11/02 12:37:15 PM Central Daylight Time,
      bruninga@... writes:


      > Subj:Re: [scoutradio] Dayton?
      > Date:5/11/02 12:37:15 PM Central Daylight Time
      > From:<A HREF="mailto:bruninga@...">bruninga@...</A>
      > Reply-to:<A
      HREF="mailto:scoutradio@yahoogroups.com">scoutradio@yahoogroups.com</A>
      > To:<A
      HREF="mailto:scoutradio@yahoogroups.com">scoutradio@yahoogroups.com</A>
      > Sent from the Internet
      >
      >
      >
      > On Sat, 11 May 2002 Frosty6981@... wrote:
      >
      > > I was wondering if there were any scouts planning on going to Dayton.
      If
      > > there are should we choose a frequency to meet on and have a nice chat
      > there?
      >
      > Use the FRS/HAM freqwuency of channel 7 tone 3. Or the alternate chanel 5
      > tone 2.
      >
      > de WB4APR, Bob
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
      >
      > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
      > to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
      >
      > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
      > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
      >
      > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
      >
      > ScoutRadio start page:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scoutradio (Email archives - member email
      > addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
      >
      > Post message: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
      > Unsubscribe: scoutradio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > List owner: scoutradio-owner@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >


      73, Reid KCØIDI


      [This message contained attachments]



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 2
      Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 19:10:56 -0500 (CDT)
      From: Milt Forsberg <miltf@...>
      Subject: Re: Dayton?

      At Dayton, everything is crowded. I am sure the FRS channels will be
      totally full, as will most of the ham freqs and most of the business
      channels. I have tried all of these in the past and they have always been
      busy. Cellphones still seem to work ok ;) 27,000 people all wanting to
      use radios does create some interesting RF. Just pick your freq and try
      it.

      Milt Forsberg, K9QZI
      Champaign, IL


      On Sat, 11 May 2002 Frosty6981@... wrote:

      > I have not been to Dayton before, I heard that 2m is really crowed, Is it
      so
      > bad that we would have to use FRS or can we use 2m or 440?
      >



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 3
      Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 20:38:32 -0400
      From: ray@...
      Subject: Re: Digest Number 273

      One of the leaders in my Cub Unit just came
      back from a council training session. She
      was told that "FRS Radios should be kept at
      home... should not be brought to Council Events
      or Camp." They interfere with Camp Freqs (150's mhz +/-)
      She was also told that 1. folks should not "caravan" to
      various events either! and 2. Lifeguards with current
      certification are now Required, not "highly recommended".

      I have not investigated this yet, but that was the
      report I got from the leader. It may be worthwhile to have the more
      knowledgeable ham types formally advise national camping
      committees on good and useful in formation to pass on to local
      councils etc. There seems to be some mis-information
      and over-zealous folks at work.

      The low power and uhf freq ranges of FRS is highly
      unlikely to interfere with other services. Though not
      perfect, they provide a nice, cheap communications
      and safety tool to unit leaders. It would be a shame
      for them to be discouraged accross the board as
      other "electronic toys" are... and should be.

      I'll pass on more as I hear it.

      73 de N1RY
      Ray




      On 10 May 02, at 19:04, scoutradio@yahoogroups.com wrote:

      >
      > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
      >
      > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
      to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
      >
      > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
      > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
      >
      > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
      >
      > ScoutRadio start page:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scoutradio (Email archives - member email
      addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
      >
      > Post message: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
      > Unsubscribe: scoutradio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > List owner: scoutradio-owner@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > There is 1 message in this issue.
      >
      > Topics in this digest:
      >
      > 1. Re: Scouts FRS Radio Guidelines
      > From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...>
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 14:01:40 -0400 (EDT)
      > From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...>
      > Subject: Re: Scouts FRS Radio Guidelines
      >
      > On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, I posted a SCOUTING FRS RADIO CODE...
      >
      > If you are interested, I edited it some today to make a better
      > uderstanding of what is different about FRS and "radio". The new wording
      > shows scouts how FRS was designed for consumers to be a CELL-PHONE
      > clone for one-on-one comms. THus they have those silly RING tones and
      > CALL buttons.
      >
      > But in a "radio net" on a shared channel with lots of people (like
      > Scouting applications), these ring tones and CALL buttons actually
      > INTERFERE with good communicatinos techinique..
      >
      > I posted the SOUTING FRS RADIO CODE on:
      >
      > http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/frsplan.txt
      >
      > de WB4APR, Bob
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >




      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 4
      Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 19:30:32 -0700
      From: "Joseph W. Nolan" <jnolan@...>
      Subject: Re: Digest Number 273

      Please inform this newbie as to what a FRS radio is? Handheld??

      Joe Nolan-KB7WDI

      ray@... wrote:

      > One of the leaders in my Cub Unit just came
      > back from a council training session. She
      > was told that "FRS Radios should be kept at
      > home... should not be brought to Council Events
      > or Camp." They interfere with Camp Freqs (150's mhz +/-)
      > She was also told that 1. folks should not "caravan" to
      > various events either! and 2. Lifeguards with current
      > certification are now Required, not "highly recommended".
      >
      > I have not investigated this yet, but that was the
      > report I got from the leader. It may be worthwhile to have the more
      > knowledgeable ham types formally advise national camping
      > committees on good and useful in formation to pass on to local
      > councils etc. There seems to be some mis-information
      > and over-zealous folks at work.
      >
      > The low power and uhf freq ranges of FRS is highly
      > unlikely to interfere with other services. Though not
      > perfect, they provide a nice, cheap communications
      > and safety tool to unit leaders. It would be a shame
      > for them to be discouraged accross the board as
      > other "electronic toys" are... and should be.
      >
      > I'll pass on more as I hear it.
      >
      > 73 de N1RY
      > Ray
      >
      >
      > On 10 May 02, at 19:04, scoutradio@yahoogroups.com wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
      > >
      > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
      subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
      > >
      > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
      > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
      > >
      > > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
      > >
      > > ScoutRadio start page:
      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scoutradio (Email archives - member email
      addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
      > >
      > > Post message: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
      > > Unsubscribe: scoutradio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > List owner: scoutradio-owner@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
      > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > >
      > > There is 1 message in this issue.
      > >
      > > Topics in this digest:
      > >
      > > 1. Re: Scouts FRS Radio Guidelines
      > > From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...>
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________________________________________________
      > > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > > Message: 1
      > > Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 14:01:40 -0400 (EDT)
      > > From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...>
      > > Subject: Re: Scouts FRS Radio Guidelines
      > >
      > > On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, I posted a SCOUTING FRS RADIO CODE...
      > >
      > > If you are interested, I edited it some today to make a better
      > > uderstanding of what is different about FRS and "radio". The new
      wording
      > > shows scouts how FRS was designed for consumers to be a CELL-PHONE
      > > clone for one-on-one comms. THus they have those silly RING tones and
      > > CALL buttons.
      > >
      > > But in a "radio net" on a shared channel with lots of people (like
      > > Scouting applications), these ring tones and CALL buttons actually
      > > INTERFERE with good communicatinos techinique..
      > >
      > > I posted the SOUTING FRS RADIO CODE on:
      > >
      > > http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/frsplan.txt
      > >
      > > de WB4APR, Bob
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________________________________________________
      > > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
      >
      > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
      to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
      >
      > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
      > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
      >
      > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
      >
      > ScoutRadio start page:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scoutradio (Email archives - member email
      addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
      >
      > Post message: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
      > Unsubscribe: scoutradio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > List owner: scoutradio-owner@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 5
      Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 22:38:41 -0500
      From: "Ray Brown" <raybrown@...>
      Subject: Re: Digest Number 273

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <ray@...>

      > One of the leaders in my Cub Unit just came
      > back from a council training session.

      Funny, I did, too, a couple of weeks ago. BALOO and Webelos Leader
      training. :-)

      > She was told that "FRS Radios should be kept at
      > home... should not be brought to Council Events
      > or Camp." They interfere with Camp Freqs (150's mhz +/-)

      Bunk. That council needs to know the difference. (And I'm curious to know
      what their "Camp Frequency" is. Chances are,
      they're one of the so-called "dot" frequencies, which we all know the FCC
      more or less abandoned enforcement of those
      frequencies a couple of years ago.

      > She was also told that 1. folks should not "caravan" to
      > various events either! and 2. Lifeguards with current
      > certification are now Required, not "highly recommended".

      As to #1, if you fill out the proper forms, including vehicles and their
      tag numbers, then you're covered under the Scouts'
      insurance.

      As to #2... hmmm. I may have been dozing a bit at that point, but I think
      she's right. But methinks that's not for
      discussion here. :-)

      _Ray_ KB0STN
      DA, Den 3, Pack 77
      Ozarks Trail Council, Joplin, MO
      raybrown@...





      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 6
      Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 03:06:10 -0400
      From: Michael Derek Barnett <mdb@...>
      Subject: Re: Digest Number 273

      Je Saturday 11 May 2002 20:38, ray@... skribis:
      > One of the leaders in my Cub Unit just came
      > back from a council training session. She
      > was told that "FRS Radios should be kept at
      > home... should not be brought to Council Events
      > or Camp." They interfere with Camp Freqs (150's mhz +/-)

      The only way this could be happening is if the FRS radios in question are
      transmitting harmonics on those frequencies. I'd have to go look up the FRS
      frequencies again, but I sincerely doubt this is a widespread problem, if it
      even exists at all. Certainly sounds like bunk, as a previous poster pointed
      out.

      > She was also told that 1. folks should not "caravan" to
      > various events either!

      Bunk, too. What business is it of theirs anyway?
      --><--
      -derek

      "Don't lean your canoe-antenna against a tree without making sure it is
      insulated."
      David Herbert Hatch


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 7
      Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 07:38:21 -0700 (PDT)
      From: Carter J Wood <carterjwood@...>
      Subject: Car Caravans...

      have been gone for several years. Use "The Guide to
      Safe Scouting" as a reference.

      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
      http://launch.yahoo.com


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 8
      Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 13:11:57 -0500
      From: "Thomas H. Bosworth" <bsa13@...>
      Subject: RE: Digest Number 273

      >>She was also told that folks should not "caravan" to various events
      either!

      A "caravan" to any Scouting event is against Scout policy (see the guide to
      safe Scouting).
      However, the reality is that most units leave from the the same parking lot
      in their community at the same time, stop & the same rest areas when
      necessary, & miraculously arrive at the Scouting event at the same time!!!
      The FRS issue is pure bunk. Tell her shes wrong on the radio issue.
      --
      Tom "polarcub" Bosworth
      www.bsa13.com


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Michael Derek Barnett [mailto:mdb@...]
      Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 2:06 AM
      To: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [scoutradio] Digest Number 273


      Je Saturday 11 May 2002 20:38, ray@... skribis:
      > One of the leaders in my Cub Unit just came
      > back from a council training session. She
      > was told that "FRS Radios should be kept at
      > home... should not be brought to Council Events
      > or Camp." They interfere with Camp Freqs (150's mhz +/-)

      The only way this could be happening is if the FRS radios in question are
      transmitting harmonics on those frequencies. I'd have to go look up the FRS
      frequencies again, but I sincerely doubt this is a widespread problem, if it
      even exists at all. Certainly sounds like bunk, as a previous poster pointed
      out.

      > She was also told that 1. folks should not "caravan" to
      > various events either!

      Bunk, too. What business is it of theirs anyway?
      --><--




      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 9
      Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 19:25:27 -0000
      From: "kr1zan" <kr1zan@...>
      Subject: Caravans and Convoys

      In the Guide to Safe Scouting, see the BSA's official web site:
      http://www.bsa.scouting.org/pubs/gss/toc.html
      the word "caravan" doesn't show up. The word "convoy" does.

      I've always been led to believe that what is being discouraged is
      traveling in a single file order on the highway, similar to military
      units, so that no other vehicles can get in between, perhaps on the
      shoulder of the highway. Even though it can be argued that this is
      an efficient and safe way to travel, specialized skills are required.

      Many units travel in what is often called "caravan" in which a
      reasonable distance is placed between vehicles, 1/4 to 1/2 mile or
      more, so that if anyone required assistance, another could help. The
      use of radios for communication facilitates traveling in "caravan" so
      that visual contact with the car in front isn't necessary and
      distances can be increased.

      I've always preferred that units travel as Patrols, with at least two
      vehicles per Patrol. The Patrols set their own departure time, plan
      rest stops and meals, and have a joint planned arrival time at the
      overnight stop or final destination. After all, this is the Patrol
      method. It's important to plan and establish appropriate
      communications systems (i.e., point of contact, cell phone numbers,
      frequencies, etc.) to facilitate emergency or operational messaging.

      Troops and Crews often use a single trailer to carry gear and cars to
      carry passengers. Because of this, there is typically a single
      meeting place for loading the trailer and assigning rides to cars and
      vans.

      No matter what method is used, this discussion should have prompted
      all of us to review the BSA "Guide to Safe Scouting."

      Yours in Scouting,
      Frank Krizan, KR1ZAN
      Advisor, Venturer Crew 73 - K5BSA
      Plano, Texas





      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________



      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Bob Bruninga
      ... Typical bureaucratic knee-jerk reaction. The answer is to educate scouts to proper radio use. de WB4APR, Bob
      Message 2 of 15 , May 13 6:38 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        > We have had trouble with FRS units interfering with outhers... that is ,
        > individual scouts using FRS inappropriately. As a result, we ban all FRS
        > radios for use with scouts.

        Typical bureaucratic knee-jerk reaction. The answer is to educate scouts
        to proper radio use.

        de WB4APR, Bob
      • Bob Bruninga
        Topic: Radios at camp... Having just returned from a great experience of demonstrating Ham Radio at my son s boy scout camp, but the previous week having my
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 12, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Topic: Radios at camp...

          Having just returned from a great experience of demonstrating Ham Radio at
          my son's boy scout camp, but the previous week having my daughter's HT
          banned from a 10 day Appalachian Trail group adventure, I think it might
          be a good idea for the ARRL to publish a standard Pamphlet called HAM
          RADIO AT CAMP that discussses the advantages of HAM radio and addresses the
          differences between HAM radio and FRS and Boom Boxes in simple terms.

          A draft of the Phamplet will be maintained on the WEB page:
          http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/hratcamp.txt

          Following is a text copy of the draft if you are interested... I invite
          any substantive improvements or simplifications on the wording...

          de WB4APR, Bob

          **************************************************************************
          * This is a two sided pamphlet for use at ALL camps. Side one discusses *
          * Ham Radio at camp and how it is excluded from the list of prohibited *
          * electronics at camp and the other side is the Scouting FRS Radio Code. *
          **************************************************************************

          HAM RADIO AT CAMP Side 1
          --------------------------------------------------------------------------
          WB4APR

          HAM RADIO is not a boombox or a video game or a toy. Ham Radio is not
          anonymous and nothing at all like a "chatroom". Individuals on the Ham
          Radio bands are licensed and uniquely identified by the Federal
          Communications Commission (FCC). Such individuals have studied radio
          technology and operational techniques and have passed a test demonstrating
          their knowledge of the communications art before licensing.

          HAM RADIO is a licensed two-way radio service for local, national and
          international communications and especially for emergency communications
          where normal means of communications are lost or are not available. Ham
          Radio operators pride themselves in the ability to communicate and
          practice their emergency communications skills out in the field whenever
          they get the opportunity.

          HAM RADIO operation from camp, in the field, on hikes, or on trips is
          fundamental to exploring the limits of communications under a variety of
          conditions. In this case, Ham Radio is NOT included in the list of
          prohibited items at camp such as "electronics, radios, video games boom
          boxes, and other entertinament electronic devices".

          HAM RADIO can serve several opportunities at camp besides just emergency
          communications and operating from field situations. Examples:

          * Hiker communications
          * camp-to-camp communications
          * Radio merit badge operations
          * International awareness and communications
          * Geography and topography effects on radio waves
          * Hidden transmitter hunts and direction finding
          * Radio Sport (a combinateion of DFing and orienteering)

          HAM RADIO walkie talkies should not be confused with the FAMILY RADIO
          SERVICE, which is similar to CB in that it is an unlicensed radio service
          for the consumer with no individual identification nor individual
          responsibility for proper operations. Any restrictions (if any) on the
          use of walkie-talkies at camp must consider the distinct differences
          between these two services in the decision process.

          This is not to say that FRS does not have great potential at camp. In
          fact, FRS when properly used can also serve many viable communications
          needs at camp and as an excellent introduction to radio as long as every-
          one who uses FRS properly identifies his transmissions and operates
          responsibly. See the Scouting FRS Radio Code on the reverse of this
          Pamphlet.

          SHACKS-FOR-PACKS (and troops and posts) is a program to encourage the
          permanent installation of HAM Shacks at all camps. These shacks are just
          simple pre-fab 8x8' sheds which provide a gathering place for kids to
          learn about radio from any camper or Mom or Dad that has brought his
          HAM equipment with him. The shack provides a permanent place, an
          antenna and sometimes a 12 volt power system. Equipment and security
          is provided by whoever is currently in camp. Thus, the shack is intended
          to remain open at all times. The only permanently installed electronics
          will be an FRS base station on the scouting FRS channel 12. For more
          information see http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/shacks4packs.html.


          SCOUTING FRS RADIO CODE Side 2
          -------------------------------------------------------------------------
          WB4APR

          The Family Radio Service is ideal for Scout communications. Packs,
          troops, posts and camps should adopt FRS and encourage Scouts to learn
          the fundamentals of radio technique for practical, efficient and safe
          communications. FRS consists of 14 channels and 38 squelch codes which
          combined, yield 526 ways for people to NOT be able to communicate with
          each other without prior agreement on their settings. This is OK for a
          family, but contrary to many potential applications for radios in and
          around camps and Scouting.

          FRS radios are not toys and should not be used as such. Scouting is the
          ideal place to teach the fundamentals of radio techinque to all kids.

          FRS designers assumed consumers would use FRS like a cell phone for one-
          on-one calls. That is why they have the irritating RING tones and there
          is no mention of proper "radio procedures" in the instructions. But for
          Scouting, FRS radios are used as RADIOS and Scouts need to understand
          proper radio procedures when multiple people share a channel. To use FRS
          effectively AS A RADIO and for safety in the wilderness, the following
          guidelines are recommended for all Scouts.

          1) For general communications purposes with many users, do not use the
          CALL buttons, or RING tones. They are irritating, and they cause people
          to turn their volume down, or turn the radio off. This eliminates the
          value of a radio to communicate. To contact someone, use their callsign.

          2) CHANNEL-1 TONE-0: At each new outing or venue, begin communications
          on channel 1 tone 0 (tones off). This is the universal FRS calling
          channel. If it is quiet, you may meet fellow hikers or Scouters, and you
          are serving others by monitoring this channel for emergencies.

          3) SCOUTING CHANNEL: If channel 1 is too busy for peace of mind, change
          to channel 12, the Scouting channel. Remember the 12 points of the Scout
          law. If channel 12 is too busy, then set tone 5 for the 5 words in the
          Scout slogan. With this setting you will typically only hear other
          Scouters in busy areas. But in general setting TONES to anything but off
          makes it difficult for you to monitor the channel and keep aware of what
          is going on.

          4) CAMP CHANNELS: At camps or Jamborees, choose your channel and tones
          to match your troop numbers in accordance with these guidelines so that
          someone trying to reach you can also figure out your channel and tone in
          case somone needs to contact you. Use the first two digits of your troop
          for your channel if possible. If these are above "14", then use only the
          first digit. Do not use tones. Set tones to 0 or OFF. If you must
          silence the channel by using tones, then use the next two digits of your
          troop for your tone. If above 38, then use only the single digit. Using
          these rules will make it possible to always find your frequency if someone
          needs to contact you.

          5) HAM CHANNEL: One other channel that may be interesting to Scouts
          wanting to learn more about radio is channel 7 tone 3. That is where HAM
          radio operators on FRS may hang out if channel 1 tone 0 or the scouting
          channel is too busy... Again, only set the tones if you have to...

          6) CALLSIGNS: Radio communications work best when everyone can tell who
          is talking. Eliminating anonymity eliminates much of the abuse on the
          channel. It is best to use callsigns and to begin any new conversation
          with standard radio technique of saying the callsign of the person you
          are calling followed by "this is" and your callsign. Choose good
          callsigns such as your troop number and your initials. For our Troop 995,
          for example, "995AJB this is 995REB, over".

          7) TEACH, NOT SCOLD: Never be critical of someone over the air. Teach
          proper radio technique by setting a good example and by instruction to new
          Scouts. Remember with 38 squelch tones, the chance that the other person
          will hear you is less than 3%. If someone is acting improperly, the
          number one rule is to ignore them. If you respond, then you are only
          encouraging further abuse. If you ignore him, however, he will get bored
          and probably go elsewhere.

          8) FRS NIGHT: Every WED nite at 9 PM everywhere is FRS night. This is a
          time to meet new radio friends who are also looking to see who else is
          radio active in their area and wants to learn more about radio. Just go to
          channel 1 tone 0 and call "CQ FRS NIGHT, this is xxxxxxx, OVER".

          9) MOVE UP TO HAM RADIO: FRS radio is limited in range and power. If you
          enjoy radio and want to increase your range as well as make new radio
          friends and to even make phone calls from your radio, get in touch with
          HAM radio operators and learn all about the exciing world of HAM radio.
          See the web page at http://www.arrl.org

          10) PLAY IT SAFE: FRS radio is a great way to meet new friends and learn
          about radio. But it is unlicensed and you have no guarantee who may be on
          the other end. So be smart and use the same safety precautions as with
          any strangers. Do not reveal any private information and do not meet any
          stangers in any unsafe location. Only communicate with others who
          properly identify themselves.

          To encourage radio communications at camp, many camps are installing "HAM
          Shacks" permanently in camp, and these shacks include FRS equipment for
          introducing youth to proper radio techniques. See the SHACKS-FOR-PACKS
          section on the reverse side of this pamphlet.

          **************************************************************************
          * These guidelines for FRS and Scouting are only a draft. They are not *
          * yet endorsed by any scouting organization, but we hope to encourage *
          * their adoption. To keep up-to-date on any changes to this plan, visit *
          * our web page at: www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/frsplan.txt *
          * *
          * Teaching familiarity with this RADIO CODE should be one of requirements*
          * in the scouting program. I would suggest Tenderfoot. FRS radio can be*
          * a powerful tool for Scouting, but unless we teach radio technique, FRS *
          * will become just another noisey toy, banned from all Scout activities *
          * at great loss to the Scouting program. *
          * *
          * Enjoy radio, learn more, and move up to HAM radio! *
          * Bob Bruninga, WB4APR, Eagle Scout. *
          **************************************************************************
        • Bill Stewart
          Bob, might I ask who the group was that banned the HT?? 73, Bill Stewart, W2BSA ... Topic: Radios at camp... Having just returned from a great experience of
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 12, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Topic:  Radios at camp...

            Having just returned from a great experience of demonstrating Ham Radio at
            my son's boy scout camp, but the previous week having my daughter's HT
            banned from a 10 day Appalachian Trail group adventure, I think it might
            be a good idea for the ARRL to publish a standard Pamphlet called HAM
            RADIO AT CAMP that discussses the advantages of HAM radio and addresses the
            differences between HAM radio and FRS and Boom Boxes in simple terms.

            A draft of the Phamplet will be maintained on the WEB page:
            http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/hratcamp.txt

            Following is a text copy of the draft if you are interested...  I invite
            any substantive improvements or simplifications on the wording...

            de WB4APR, Bob

            **************************************************************************
            * This is a two sided pamphlet for use at ALL camps.  Side one discusses *
            * Ham Radio at camp and how it is excluded from the list of prohibited   *
            * electronics at camp and the other side is the Scouting FRS Radio Code. *
            **************************************************************************

            HAM RADIO AT CAMP                                                   Side 1
            --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                WB4APR

            HAM RADIO is not a boombox or a video game or a toy.  Ham Radio is not
            anonymous and nothing at all like a "chatroom".  Individuals on the Ham
            Radio bands are licensed and uniquely identified by the Federal
            Communications Commission (FCC).  Such individuals have studied radio
            technology and operational techniques and have passed a test demonstrating
            their knowledge of the communications art before licensing.

            HAM RADIO is a licensed two-way radio service for local, national and
            international communications and especially for emergency communications
            where normal means of communications are lost or are not available.  Ham
            Radio operators pride themselves in the ability to communicate and
            practice their emergency communications skills out in the field whenever
            they get the opportunity.

            HAM RADIO operation from camp, in the field, on hikes, or on trips is
            fundamental to exploring the limits of communications under a variety of
            conditions.  In this case, Ham Radio is NOT included in the list of
            prohibited items at camp such as "electronics, radios, video games boom
            boxes, and other entertinament electronic devices".

            HAM RADIO can serve several opportunities at camp besides just emergency
            communications and  operating from field situations.  Examples:

              * Hiker communications
              * camp-to-camp communications
              * Radio merit badge operations
              * International awareness and communications
              * Geography and topography effects on radio waves
              * Hidden transmitter hunts and direction finding
              * Radio Sport (a combinateion of DFing and orienteering)

            HAM RADIO walkie talkies should not be confused with the FAMILY RADIO
            SERVICE, which is similar to CB in that it is an unlicensed radio service
            for the consumer with no individual identification nor individual
            responsibility for proper operations.  Any restrictions (if any) on the
            use of walkie-talkies at camp must consider the distinct differences
            between these two services in the decision process.

            This is not to say that FRS does not have great potential at camp.  In
            fact, FRS when properly used can also serve many viable communications
            needs at camp and as an excellent introduction to radio as long as every-
            one who uses FRS properly identifies his transmissions and operates
            responsibly.  See the Scouting FRS Radio Code on the reverse of this
            Pamphlet.

            SHACKS-FOR-PACKS (and troops and posts) is a program to encourage the
            permanent installation of HAM Shacks at all camps.  These shacks are just
            simple pre-fab 8x8' sheds which provide a gathering place for kids to
            learn about radio from any camper or Mom or Dad that has brought his
            HAM equipment with him.  The shack provides a permanent place, an
            antenna and sometimes a 12 volt power system.  Equipment and security
            is provided by whoever is currently in camp.  Thus, the shack is intended
            to remain open at all times.  The only permanently installed electronics
            will be an FRS base station on the scouting FRS channel 12.  For more
            information see http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/shacks4packs.html.


            SCOUTING FRS RADIO CODE                                            Side 2
            -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                               WB4APR

            The Family Radio Service is ideal for Scout communications.  Packs,
            troops, posts and camps should adopt FRS and encourage Scouts to learn
            the fundamentals of radio technique for practical, efficient and safe
            communications.  FRS consists of 14 channels and 38 squelch codes which
            combined, yield 526 ways for people to NOT be able to communicate with
            each other without prior agreement on their settings.  This is OK for a
            family, but contrary to many potential applications for radios in and
            around camps and Scouting.

            FRS radios are not toys and should not be used as such.  Scouting is the
            ideal place to teach the fundamentals of radio techinque to all kids.

            FRS designers assumed consumers would use FRS like a cell phone for one-
            on-one calls.  That is why they have the irritating RING tones and there
            is no mention of proper "radio procedures" in the instructions.  But for
            Scouting, FRS radios are used as RADIOS and Scouts need to understand
            proper radio procedures when multiple people share a channel.  To use FRS
            effectively AS A RADIO and for safety in the wilderness, the following
            guidelines are recommended for all Scouts.

            1) For general communications purposes with many users, do not use the
            CALL buttons, or RING tones.  They are irritating, and they cause people
            to turn their volume down, or turn the radio off.  This eliminates the
            value of a radio to communicate.  To contact someone, use their callsign.

            2) CHANNEL-1 TONE-0:  At each new outing or venue, begin communications
            on channel 1 tone 0 (tones off).  This is the universal FRS calling
            channel.  If it is quiet, you may meet fellow hikers or Scouters, and you
            are serving others by monitoring this channel for emergencies.

            3) SCOUTING CHANNEL:  If channel 1 is too busy for peace of mind, change
            to channel 12, the Scouting channel.  Remember the 12 points of the Scout
            law.  If channel 12 is too busy, then set tone 5 for the 5 words in the
            Scout slogan.  With this setting you will typically only hear other
            Scouters in busy areas.  But in general setting TONES to anything but off
            makes it difficult for you to  monitor the channel and keep aware of what
            is going on.

            4) CAMP CHANNELS:  At camps or Jamborees, choose your channel and tones
            to match your troop numbers in accordance with these guidelines so that
            someone trying to reach you can also figure out your channel and tone in
            case somone needs to contact you.  Use the first two digits of your troop
            for your channel if possible.  If these are above "14", then use only the
            first digit.   Do not use tones.  Set tones to 0 or OFF.  If you must
            silence the channel by using tones, then use the next two digits of your
            troop for your tone.  If above 38, then use only the single digit.  Using
            these rules will make it possible to always find your frequency if someone
            needs to contact you.

            5) HAM CHANNEL:  One other channel that may be interesting to Scouts
            wanting to learn more about radio is channel 7 tone 3.  That is where HAM
            radio operators on FRS may hang out if channel 1 tone 0 or the scouting
            channel is too busy...  Again, only set the tones if you have to...

            6) CALLSIGNS:  Radio communications work best when everyone can tell who
            is talking.  Eliminating anonymity eliminates much of the abuse on the
            channel.  It is best to use callsigns and to begin any new conversation
            with standard  radio technique of saying the callsign of the person you
            are calling  followed by "this is" and your callsign.  Choose good
            callsigns such as your  troop number and your initials. For our Troop 995,
            for example, "995AJB this is 995REB, over".

            7) TEACH, NOT SCOLD:  Never be critical of someone over the air.  Teach
            proper radio technique by setting a good example and by instruction to new
            Scouts.  Remember with 38 squelch tones, the chance that the other person
            will hear you is less than 3%.  If someone is acting improperly, the
            number  one rule is to ignore them.  If you respond, then you are only
            encouraging  further abuse.  If you ignore him, however, he will get bored
            and probably go elsewhere.

            8) FRS NIGHT:  Every WED nite at 9 PM everywhere is FRS night.  This is a
            time to meet new radio friends who are also looking to see who else is
            radio active in their area and wants to learn more about radio.  Just go to
            channel 1 tone 0 and call "CQ FRS NIGHT, this is xxxxxxx, OVER".

            9) MOVE UP TO HAM RADIO:  FRS radio is limited in range and power.  If you
            enjoy radio and want to increase your range as well as make new radio
            friends  and to even make phone calls from your radio, get in touch with
            HAM radio  operators and learn all about the exciing world of HAM radio.
            See the web page at http://www.arrl.org.

            10) PLAY IT SAFE:  FRS radio is a great way to meet new friends and learn
            about radio.  But it is unlicensed and you have no guarantee who may be on
            the other end.  So be smart and use the same safety precautions as with
            any strangers.  Do not reveal any private information and do not meet any
            stangers in any unsafe location.  Only communicate with others who
            properly identify themselves.

            To encourage radio communications at camp, many camps are installing "HAM
            Shacks" permanently in camp, and these shacks include FRS equipment for
            introducing youth to proper radio techniques.  See the SHACKS-FOR-PACKS
            section on the reverse side of this pamphlet.

            **************************************************************************
            * These guidelines for FRS and Scouting are only a draft.  They are not  *
            * yet endorsed by any scouting organization, but we hope to encourage    *
            * their adoption.  To keep up-to-date on any changes to this plan, visit *
            * our web page at:  www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/frsplan.txt                *
            *                                                                        *
            * Teaching familiarity with this RADIO CODE should be one of requirements*
            * in the scouting program.  I would suggest Tenderfoot.  FRS radio can be*
            * a powerful tool for Scouting, but unless we teach radio technique, FRS *
            * will become just another noisey toy, banned from all Scout activities  *
            * at great loss to the Scouting program.                                 *
            *                                                                        *
            * Enjoy radio, learn more, and move up to HAM radio!                     *
            * Bob Bruninga, WB4APR, Eagle Scout.                                     *
            **************************************************************************





            Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

            Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

            Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
            http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

            Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

            ScoutRadio start page:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scoutradio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

            Post message: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
            Unsubscribe:  scoutradio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            List owner:   scoutradio-owner@yahoogroups.com

            SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • Bob Bruninga
            ... As a Dad, on arrival at camp for my one night tour of duty, I was told that my job was to sit in the campsite (rules require 2 adults present). THus,
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 12, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Having been to camp this week, I have a new perspective on:

              > SHACKS-FOR-PACKS (and troops and posts) is a program to encourage the
              > permanent installation of HAM Shacks at all camps. These... simple
              > pre-fab 8x8' sheds... provide a gathering place for kids to learn about
              > radio from any camper, Mom or Dad that has brought his HAM equipment...

              As a Dad, on arrival at camp for my one night tour of duty, I was told
              that my job was to sit in the campsite (rules require 2 adults present).
              THus, setting up a demo station in a central location (the mess hall) was
              out for the evening I was there...

              As I was schelping my equipment down the trail to our campsite, I saw a
              suspiciious white rope going into the trees at a nearby campsite and
              followed it to a dipole, coax and another HAM! But no one outside of his
              troop knew it was there.

              So here is the new cheap alternative to SHACKS-4-PACKS to give visibility
              to HAM radio in camp with greater flexibility. Simply prepare a permanent
              big sign in a central location that says something like:

              +--------------------------+
              | HAM Station this week |
              | |
              | *************** |
              | * ON THE AIR * |
              | *************** |
              | is operating at campsite |
              +-------*---------*--------+
              * *
              +---*---------*---+
              | Davey Crocket |
              +-----------------+

              Actually it would also have a place for the operator to put his QSL card
              to identify who he is and it would also probably have a little note that
              says the HAM station is montoring 146.52 and FRS channel 7 tone 3 and an
              invitation to "come on down"...

              Thus, everyone at camp will konw if HAM radio is currently being
              demonstrated and where. ALso, since an FRS radio is less than $20 these
              days, I would make the ON-AIR sign be RED and BACKLIT and hooked to the
              FRS squelch and a 15 minute one-shot timer so that I could trigger it to
              be ON remotely whenever I am on the air. Thus saving a hike to the
              mess-hall at the start and stop of each operating session...

              The advantage here is that each HAM can do his thing WITH HIS TROOP in
              place at his campsite, yet still give the overall camp the visibility of
              operations. A problem with the shacks-4-packs concept is that the
              operator there must be independent of any other collateral duties since he
              is stuck at a central location.

              I would make the sign about 1' by 2' and use a router to make it permanent
              on thick wood. The individual campsite plaques would hang below it...
              The sign should probably have a place on the back to keep all the unused
              campsite boards when not in use... Now, where to find the back-lit ON-AIR
              piece of red glass..?

              See the design http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/shacksign.jpg

              So anyway, I just thought I would post this ON-THE-AIR sign idea as a
              cheap and simple alternative to the SHACKS-4-PACKS idea....

              See http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/shacks4packs.html

              de WB4APR, Bob
            • wa6lbu@aol.com
              I think we d all like to know that. In a message dated 7/12/02 10:59:54 AM Central Daylight Time, w2bsa@arrl.net writes:
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 12, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                I think we'd all like to know that.

                In a message dated 7/12/02 10:59:54 AM Central Daylight Time, w2bsa@...
                writes:

                <<
                Bob, might I ask who the group was that banned the HT??

                73,
                >>
              • kr1zan
                Bob, I think your pamphlet idea is great. I will probably reread it a few times and offer some comments ... but, in general, I like what you ve done. In
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 12, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Bob,

                  I think your "pamphlet" idea is great. I will probably reread it a
                  few times and offer some comments ... but, in general, I like what
                  you've done.

                  In order to give some credibility to amateur radio and the proper use
                  of FRS or other radio communications in camp or other scouting
                  events, how about a "Radio Chit" similar to the Tot 'n Chit or the
                  Fireman Chit? Both Scouts and Scouters (adult leaders) must undergo
                  some type of limited, but documented, training and examination in
                  order to earn their "Radio Chit." Your pamphlet, along with the FRS
                  guidelines, is a start.

                  Similar to the Tot 'n Chit, if a Scout (or Scouter) is found misusing
                  radio privileges, a Scout leader (youth or adult) would admonish the
                  offender, request the Radio Chit and tear off a corner. If four
                  corners (or whatever) are torn off, then the offender must secure or
                  turn in for securing the radio equipment. Only when the offender has
                  gone through refresher training and receives a new Radio Chit can the
                  Scout or Scouter once again use radios in camp. Or, if the
                  Scout/Scouter doesn't have a Radio Chit -- simple, no more radio
                  under Radio Chit earned.

                  Yes, I know there's always the emergency, etc. The same thing holds
                  true for the Tot 'n Chit, etc.

                  The pamphlet, Radio Chit and other such info papers should be
                  published at "no expense to the National BSA." They've got enough
                  costs the way it is. The Chit could be in PDF form on a National BSA
                  web site, as should the supporting training and exams.

                  It is conceivable that a commercial sponsor, like Kenwood, Motorola,
                  American Association of Radio Enthusiasts, the ARRL, etc., might
                  provide funds for publication of heavy paper Radio Chits, or
                  underwrite manufacturing of Radio Chit patches, etc.

                  I think the Radio Chit and/or use of radios in camp/scouting should
                  be mentioned in the Guide to Safe Scouting, perhaps in the Emergency
                  Preparedness section. The Radio Chit then becomes another item that
                  Scouts can "earn" and can be promoted through Roundtables, Scouting
                  magazine, Boy's Life, etc. An attractive patch that can be worn on
                  the uniform would also be another selling point.

                  To readers other than Bob: If this discussion of the Radio Chit
                  concept doesn't belong in this newsgroup, please let me know and I'll
                  gladly communicate with Bob directly. I think he's done a terrific
                  job in kindling interest in practical, common sense, limited
                  volunteer syndrome, minimum investment ideas.

                  73, Frank KR1ZAN
                  kr1zan@...
                  Garland, Texas

                  --- In scoutradio@y..., Bob Bruninga <bruninga@u...> wrote:
                  > Topic: Radios at camp...
                  >
                  > Having just returned from a great experience of demonstrating Ham
                  Radio at
                  > my son's boy scout camp, but the previous week having my daughter's
                  HT
                  > banned from a 10 day Appalachian Trail group adventure, I think it
                  might
                  > be a good idea for the ARRL to publish a standard Pamphlet called
                  HAM
                  > RADIO AT CAMP that discussses the advantages of HAM radio and
                  addresses the
                  > differences between HAM radio and FRS and Boom Boxes in simple
                  terms.
                  >
                  > A draft of the Phamplet will be maintained on the WEB page:
                  > http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/hratcamp.txt
                  >
                  <<<<< REST OF MESSAGE SNIPPED OUT >>>>>
                • Jon Pearl W4ABC
                  ... From: kr1zan To: Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 11:13 PM Subject: [Scoutradio] Re: HAM RADIO AT CAMP Pamphlet
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 12, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "kr1zan" <kr1zan@...>
                    To: <scoutradio@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 11:13 PM
                    Subject: [Scoutradio] Re: HAM RADIO AT CAMP Pamphlet idea?


                    (SNIP)

                    As to your comments below Frank - I don't think anyone here would argue that
                    you should take these ideas anywhere else. The fine tuning of a product
                    like this takes input from many and it's great to think that we're all a
                    little part of something that may well become a 'tangible' reality for every
                    boy coming up through the ranks. A 'radio chit' would really add legitimacy
                    to operations in those areas where radio ops are presently frowned upon
                    largely due to ignorance.

                    Now if we could just convince the FCC to perforate the four corners of our
                    Ham tickets we might not have to up with so many fools...


                    Bravo fellas... great ideas all!

                    Jon Pearl W4ABC
                    West Central Florida Section OOC
                    Trustee WA4BSA

                    > > To readers other than Bob: If this discussion of the Radio Chit
                    > concept doesn't belong in this newsgroup, please let me know and I'll
                    > gladly communicate with Bob directly. I think he's done a terrific
                    > job in kindling interest in practical, common sense, limited
                    > volunteer syndrome, minimum investment ideas.
                    >
                    > 73, Frank KR1ZAN
                    > kr1zan@...
                    > Garland, Texas
                  • kr1zan
                    Jon, Thanks for your comments. To expand on the chit idea: What if it s called a Communicator Chit with boxes (or something) for endorsements for various
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 13, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Jon,

                      Thanks for your comments.

                      To expand on the "chit" idea: What if it's called a "Communicator
                      Chit" with boxes (or something) for endorsements for various
                      skills/knowledge, such as rural telephones, cell phones, Ham Radio,
                      CB, FRS, Morse Code using Flashing Light/Wig Wag, semaphore, etc.

                      A significant amount of "signaling" has been dropped from the BSA
                      handbooks over the past couple of decades and emergency preparedness
                      may be at the point of suffering.

                      73, Frank KR1ZAN
                      Garland, Texas

                      --- In scoutradio@y..., "Jon Pearl W4ABC" <w4abc@g...> wrote:
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "kr1zan" <kr1zan@a...>
                      > To: <scoutradio@y...>
                      > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 11:13 PM
                      > Subject: [Scoutradio] Re: HAM RADIO AT CAMP Pamphlet idea?
                      >
                      >
                      > (SNIP)
                      >
                      > As to your comments below Frank - I don't think anyone here would
                      argue that
                      > you should take these ideas anywhere else. The fine tuning of a
                      product
                      > like this takes input from many and it's great to think that we're
                      all a
                      > little part of something that may well become a 'tangible' reality
                      for every
                      > boy coming up through the ranks. A 'radio chit' would really add
                      legitimacy
                      > to operations in those areas where radio ops are presently frowned
                      upon
                      > largely due to ignorance.
                      >
                      > Now if we could just convince the FCC to perforate the four corners
                      of our
                      > Ham tickets we might not have to up with so many fools...
                      >
                      >
                      > Bravo fellas... great ideas all!
                      >
                      > Jon Pearl W4ABC
                      > West Central Florida Section OOC
                      > Trustee WA4BSA
                      >
                      > > > To readers other than Bob: If this discussion of the Radio Chit
                      > > concept doesn't belong in this newsgroup, please let me know and
                      I'll
                      > > gladly communicate with Bob directly. I think he's done a
                      terrific
                      > > job in kindling interest in practical, common sense, limited
                      > > volunteer syndrome, minimum investment ideas.
                      > >
                      > > 73, Frank KR1ZAN
                      > > kr1zan@a...
                      > > Garland, Texas
                    • Bob Bruninga
                      ... A local church camp. Nothing national... bob ... de WB4APR@amsat.org, Bob PCsat WEB page http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/pcsat.html ISS-APRS FAQ:
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jul 15, 2002
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                        On Fri, 12 Jul 2002 wa6lbu@... wrote:

                        > I think we'd all like to know that.

                        A local church camp. Nothing national...

                        bob
                        >
                        > In a message dated 7/12/02 10:59:54 AM Central Daylight Time, w2bsa@...
                        > writes:
                        >
                        > <<
                        > Bob, might I ask who the group was that banned the HT??
                        >
                        > 73,
                        > >>
                        >
                        >
                        > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                        >
                        > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                        >
                        > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                        > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                        >
                        > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                        >
                        > ScoutRadio start page:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scoutradio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                        >
                        > Post message: scoutradio@yahoogroups.com
                        > Unsubscribe: scoutradio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > List owner: scoutradio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >

                        de WB4APR@..., Bob

                        PCsat WEB page http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/pcsat.html
                        ISS-APRS FAQ: http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/iss-faq.html
                        CUBESAT Designs http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/cubesat.html
                        APRS LIVE pages http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/aprs.html
                        APRS SATELLITES http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/astars.html
                        MIM/Mic-E/Mic-Lite http://www.toad.net/~wclement/bruninga/mic-lite.html
                      • Bob Bruninga
                        ... GREAT IDEA! I love it. Is it a chit or a chip?. I think the whittling chip is a chip , but then that could be just a pun... A communicators coupon?
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jul 15, 2002
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                          On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, kr1zan wrote:

                          > events, how about a "Radio Chit" similar to the Tot 'n Chit or the
                          > Fireman Chit?

                          GREAT IDEA! I love it. Is it a "chit" or a chip?. I think the
                          whittling chip is a "chip", but then that could be just a pun...

                          A communicators coupon?

                          Bob

                          > Both Scouts and Scouters (adult leaders) must undergo
                          > some type of limited, but documented, training and examination in
                          > order to earn their "Radio Chit." Your pamphlet, along with the FRS
                          > guidelines, is a start.

                          > Similar to the Tot 'n Chit, if a Scout (or Scouter) is found misusing
                          > radio privileges, a Scout leader (youth or adult) would admonish the
                          > offender, request the Radio Chit and tear off a corner. If four
                          > corners (or whatever) are torn off, then the offender must secure or
                          > turn in for securing the radio equipment. Only when the offender has
                          > gone through refresher training and receives a new Radio Chit can the
                          > Scout or Scouter once again use radios in camp. Or, if the
                          > Scout/Scouter doesn't have a Radio Chit -- simple, no more radio
                          > under Radio Chit earned.
                          >
                          > Yes, I know there's always the emergency, etc. The same thing holds
                          > true for the Tot 'n Chit, etc.
                          >
                          > The pamphlet, Radio Chit and other such info papers should be
                          > published at "no expense to the National BSA." They've got enough
                          > costs the way it is. The Chit could be in PDF form on a National BSA
                          > web site, as should the supporting training and exams.
                          >
                          > It is conceivable that a commercial sponsor, like Kenwood, Motorola,
                          > American Association of Radio Enthusiasts, the ARRL, etc., might
                          > provide funds for publication of heavy paper Radio Chits, or
                          > underwrite manufacturing of Radio Chit patches, etc.
                          >
                          > I think the Radio Chit and/or use of radios in camp/scouting should
                          > be mentioned in the Guide to Safe Scouting, perhaps in the Emergency
                          > Preparedness section. The Radio Chit then becomes another item that
                          > Scouts can "earn" and can be promoted through Roundtables, Scouting
                          > magazine, Boy's Life, etc. An attractive patch that can be worn on
                          > the uniform would also be another selling point.
                          >
                          > To readers other than Bob: If this discussion of the Radio Chit
                          > concept doesn't belong in this newsgroup, please let me know and I'll
                          > gladly communicate with Bob directly. I think he's done a terrific
                          > job in kindling interest in practical, common sense, limited
                          > volunteer syndrome, minimum investment ideas.
                          >
                          > 73, Frank KR1ZAN
                          > kr1zan@...
                          > Garland, Texas
                        • Bob Bruninga
                          ... Ah, the clincher comment! Yes, I loved the CHIT idea but then thought it might appear draconian. But Jon s comment that the chit would only be reuqired
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jul 15, 2002
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                            On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, Jon Pearl W4ABC wrote:

                            > boy coming up through the ranks. A 'radio chit' would really add legitimacy
                            > to operations in those areas where radio ops are presently frowned upon
                            > largely due to ignorance.

                            Ah, the clincher comment! Yes, I loved the CHIT idea but then thought it
                            might appear draconian. But Jon's comment that the chit would only be
                            reuqired at those locations "where radio ops are presently fronwned
                            upon".. is the idea that makes it seamlessly slide into the mainstream.

                            In other words, the CHIT is not reuqired where radios are currently
                            permitted. But by having the communicators coupon as part of the concept,
                            it allows a mechanism to get radio authorized where it currently is not...
                            But in any case, I think our long term goal is to everntually make sure it
                            IS REQUIRED.

                            I have NEVER seen a kid use an FRS radio as anything other than a
                            noisemaker unless he has first been instrcuted in its proper use. Our
                            LONGTERM goal is to make sure the airwaves dont become a wasteland by
                            having everyone be properly instructed...

                            de WB4APR, Bob
                          • Fred Stevens K2FRD
                            It s CHIP with a P for Papa. A chit is a debt. Don t ask me Tot n Chip s origins; it s been around for a looooooooong time. ... -- 73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jul 15, 2002
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                              It's CHIP with a "P" for Papa. A chit is a debt. Don't ask me Tot'n
                              Chip's origins; it's been around for a looooooooong time.

                              At 11:28 -0400 15/07/2002, Bob Bruninga wrote:
                              >On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, Jon Pearl W4ABC wrote:
                              >
                              >> boy coming up through the ranks. A 'radio chit' would really add legitimacy
                              >> to operations in those areas where radio ops are presently frowned upon
                              >> largely due to ignorance.
                              >
                              >Ah, the clincher comment! Yes, I loved the CHIT idea but then thought it

                              --
                              73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD
                              Chenango Co. (NY) Assistant Emergency Coordinator
                              Foothills District, Otschodela Council BSA Committees
                              Otschodela Council Amateur Radio Group http://www.ascent.net/thefred/ocarg.htm
                              K2FRD Personal Adventure page: http://www.ascent.net/thefred/K2FRD.htm
                              Fred's newest toy: http://www.ascent.net/thefred/M1911A1.htm .
                              Subscribe to the OCARG EAGLE monthly Scouting/Ham Radio newsletter
                              (no cost, no spam):
                              Send email to: mailto:thefred@... .
                              For a narrative of my VO2/K2FRD Labrador DXpediton:
                              http://www.wpe.com/~oarc/news/page5.html .
                            • steve boylan
                              ... Why, shore, sonny: back when I was a young un, you didn t happen to have paper out in the woods. The Scoutmaster would just grab a chip of wood and sign
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jul 15, 2002
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                                Fred Stevens, K2FRD, wrote:

                                > It's CHIP with a "P" for Papa. A chit is a debt. Don't ask me Tot'n
                                > Chip's origins; it's been around for a looooooooong time.

                                Why, shore, sonny: back when I was a young 'un, you didn't happen to have
                                paper out in the woods. The Scoutmaster would just grab a chip of wood
                                and sign off, once you showed him you knew which end of the hatchet to
                                use. 'Course, back then, you first had to find a suitable hunk of flint,
                                then make the hatchet ...

                                Ahh, them was the days!

                                - - Steve, KE1KF
                              • Jon Blatman
                                As a current Life Scout and a Tech-class ham I have seen many of the situations talked about recently on the list. I think that the Radio Chit is a GREAT idea,
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jul 15, 2002
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                                  As a current Life Scout and a Tech-class ham I have seen many of the
                                  situations talked about recently on the list.

                                  I think that the Radio Chit is a GREAT idea, and the 30-60 minute class
                                  that is required for it would be able to be presented at my council camp
                                  along with the totin' chit as part of the "new scout" program

                                  I also agree that SOMETHING should be done to regulate and educate the
                                  scouts, and camp staff in paticular, that all radios are not created
                                  equal. if someone teaches the scouts that they are tools, no toys, our
                                  lives will be easier.

                                  I have been to several major scouting events recently, and the troops that
                                  have had FRS radios have scouts running around with tem, cursing at other
                                  troops, and generally being unscoutlike. We should do whatever we can to
                                  keep that from becoming everyones' impression of amateur radio.

                                  Jon Blatman
                                  N3VZG

                                  Life Scout without a troop, Chester County, PA


                                  --- Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...> wrote:
                                  > On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, Jon Pearl W4ABC wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > boy coming up through the ranks. A 'radio chit' would really add
                                  > legitimacy
                                  > > to operations in those areas where radio ops are presently frowned
                                  > upon
                                  > > largely due to ignorance.
                                  >
                                  > Ah, the clincher comment! Yes, I loved the CHIT idea but then thought
                                  > it
                                  > might appear draconian. But Jon's comment that the chit would only be
                                  > reuqired at those locations "where radio ops are presently fronwned
                                  > upon".. is the idea that makes it seamlessly slide into the mainstream.
                                  >
                                  > In other words, the CHIT is not reuqired where radios are currently
                                  > permitted. But by having the communicators coupon as part of the
                                  > concept,
                                  > it allows a mechanism to get radio authorized where it currently is
                                  > not...
                                  > But in any case, I think our long term goal is to everntually make sure
                                  > it
                                  > IS REQUIRED.
                                  >
                                  > I have NEVER seen a kid use an FRS radio as anything other than a
                                  > noisemaker unless he has first been instrcuted in its proper use. Our
                                  > LONGTERM goal is to make sure the airwaves dont become a wasteland by
                                  > having everyone be properly instructed...
                                  >
                                  > de WB4APR, Bob
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


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