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Re: Jamboree 2010

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  • Jeff
    We have had great luck with MT63 running under NBEMS and the new mini-sized xp computers. Works with any analog 2-way and can send whatever you need to without
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 15, 2009
      We have had great luck with MT63 running under NBEMS
      and the new mini-sized xp computers. Works with any analog 2-way
      and can send whatever you need to without a sound card.
      Message length is not a problem
       
      73
      Jeff
      WB4WXD
    • Gary Wilson
      I hope someone involved with the leadership of K2BSA at the 2010 BSA National Jamboree is reading this forum. It s great that we ve got such an enthusiastic
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 18, 2009
        I hope someone involved with the leadership of K2BSA at the 2010 BSA
        National Jamboree is reading this forum.

        It's great that we've got such an enthusiastic group of Scouter Hams
        planning to be at 2010 Jamboree. But we need a concerted effort
        RIGHT NOW to make sure that Scouts and their parents across the
        country are aware of how to use the National Traffic System to send
        NTS messages to Scouts attending the Jamboree.

        As you know, cell phones, etc are discouraged at the Jamboree and NTS
        radiograms are one of the few ways to get messages to individual
        Scouts. These messages are sent via NTS to K2BSA which then runs a
        nightly two meter net to get them to the appropriate subcamp and
        troop. I've had good experience in making sure that the parents of
        scouts coming from my area know how to reach me so as to be able to
        send such an NTS message to their sons.

        We're now approaching the 18 month point before the Jamboree. The
        contingent troops across the nation are just getting organized with
        parent and Scout organizational meetings, etc. It is at this time
        that much of the literature describing how things are going to work
        at the jamboree are given to parents.

        So it would be good to make sure that the literature now being send
        to the councils' contingent leaders from BSA National includes how
        parents can contact a local ham in each council across the nation to
        originate such NTS messages.

        An ideal way would be for someone to set up an e-mail forwarding
        service similar to arrl.net. Thus a parent could send a message in
        an e-mail to their son at something like "Troop411@..." . We
        could later get NTS folks to sign up to have the e-mails for troops
        originating from their area auto forwarded to themselves for
        transmission via NTS. Is their anyone on this list who someone who
        could set something like that up?

        While K2BSA is a great thing at the Jambo, it competes with lots of
        other activities there for the Scouts attention. Setting up such an
        e-mail to NTS forwarding service would greatly increase Amateur
        Radio's exposure to attending Scouts and their parents back at home.

        Thoughts on this concept are appreciated.

        73

        Gary Wilson, K2GW
        Unit Commissioner
        Central New Jersey Council
      • Gary Wilson
        ... Yahoo filtered out the mock e-mail adress I used as an example for an e- mail alias forwarder! It was Troop411 at jambo dot net 73 Gary, K2GW
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 18, 2009
          --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Wilson" <k2gw@...> wrote:

          Yahoo filtered out the mock e-mail adress I used as an example for an e-
          mail alias forwarder!

          It was " Troop411 at jambo dot net "

          73

          Gary, K2GW
        • Robert Bruninga
          ... The APRS system is already set up to be able to send and receive Text Message Emails in real time to/from any APRS radio keypad to/from anywhere in the
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 18, 2009
            > An ideal way would be for someone to set
            > up an e-mail forwarding service similar
            > to arrl.net. Thus a parent could send a
            > message in an e-mail to their son at something
            > like "Troop411@..." .

            The APRS system is already set up to be able to send and receive
            Text Message Emails in real time to/from any APRS radio keypad
            to/from anywhere in the world directly to the recepient.

            That is, any D7, D700, D710, or VX8R APRS radio can send
            text-message emails directly from the keypad on 144.39 MHz
            anywhere on the North American Continent (though we might need
            to make sure the APRS network around FT.AP Hill is working
            well). Of course anyone running -any- radio on an APRS client
            on a PC could do the same from the K2BSA or other subunit at
            Jamboree, but it needs a PC etc...

            To make an APRS message into an EMAIL, the only thing you have
            to do is:
            1) Enter EMAIL as the callsign instead of an amateur call for
            the recepient
            2) Make the first word of the message be the email address.
            3) Hit SEND and it will be delivered.
            4) If successful you may get an ACK from the EMAIL system within
            seconds.

            This makes it easy for kids to use Amateur Radio to send home
            news and reports not only from the Amateur Radio tent, but from
            ANY ROVING amateur radio operator carrying an APRS HT. (A great
            way to reach out). Scouts would feel completely comfortable
            with this kind of TEXT-MESSAGING Email on Amateur radio, since
            they all text message all the time.

            There is even an external keyboard interface for the D700 radio
            that will allow typing in the message on a QWERTY keyboard
            directy into the Mic jack of the D700. But again, that would
            only be needed for old-fuds. The kids know perfectly well how
            to text message on a DTMF keypad.

            Not only does the text message get delivered to the recepient as
            normal email instantly, it also can be seen on any of the APRS
            web pages by anyone. For example. Lets see what N4BSA messages
            exist now... Just do http://map.findu.com/n4bsa*

            You will notice a list of all APRS stations operating under that
            call if he has more than one. Click the MESSAGES link. Click
            his call to see him on an APRS map. For N4BSA, select his -9
            mobile) where you see he has sent and received serveral
            messages. You will see his messages when you click on the link.


            To SEND A REPLY EMAIL back to the radio from the web by just
            click on the REPLY link. Enter your callsign, enter the
            message, and hit SEND. Done.

            Notice, that to send a message from the internet FINDU web page
            above, you have to have an amateur radio callsign to take
            responsibility for the email. But an amateur radio operator
            for each troop back home, could accept incoming emails and then
            send them under his call.

            This is all part of the Universal Amateur Radio Text Messaging
            Initiative www.aprs.org/aprs-messaging.html

            Hope that helps.

            Bob, Wb4APR

            Bob, WB4APR
          • Stephen M. Shearer
            The (hopefully) attached K2BSA and you... flier was used at the 2005 Jamboree for K2BSA. My boys had a copy that was passed out to our council troops. I
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 18, 2009
              The (hopefully) attached "K2BSA and you..." flier was used at the 2005
              Jamboree for K2BSA. My boys had a copy that was passed out to our council
              troops. I don't remember where I got a copy before the Jamboree, but I did.
              They were also given out at K2BSA, at the Jamboree. K2BSA has always used
              the Jamboree to promote ham radio. I went to the 1964 (or was it 1965)
              Jamboree and made an effort to visit the station. I wasn't a ham, yet - but
              I still remember it, small as it was then.

              73, Steve WB3LGC
              -----Original Message-----
              From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Gary Wilson
              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:03 AM
              To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [ScoutRadio] Using the 2010 Jamboree to Promote Amateur Radio

              I hope someone involved with the leadership of K2BSA at the 2010 BSA
              National Jamboree is reading this forum.

              It's great that we've got such an enthusiastic group of Scouter Hams
              planning to be at 2010 Jamboree. But we need a concerted effort
              RIGHT NOW to make sure that Scouts and their parents across the
              country are aware of how to use the National Traffic System to send
              NTS messages to Scouts attending the Jamboree.

              As you know, cell phones, etc are discouraged at the Jamboree and NTS
              radiograms are one of the few ways to get messages to individual
              Scouts. These messages are sent via NTS to K2BSA which then runs a
              nightly two meter net to get them to the appropriate subcamp and
              troop. I've had good experience in making sure that the parents of
              scouts coming from my area know how to reach me so as to be able to
              send such an NTS message to their sons.

              We're now approaching the 18 month point before the Jamboree. The
              contingent troops across the nation are just getting organized with
              parent and Scout organizational meetings, etc. It is at this time
              that much of the literature describing how things are going to work
              at the jamboree are given to parents.

              So it would be good to make sure that the literature now being send
              to the councils' contingent leaders from BSA National includes how
              parents can contact a local ham in each council across the nation to
              originate such NTS messages.

              An ideal way would be for someone to set up an e-mail forwarding
              service similar to arrl.net. Thus a parent could send a message in
              an e-mail to their son at something like "Troop411@..." . We
              could later get NTS folks to sign up to have the e-mails for troops
              originating from their area auto forwarded to themselves for
              transmission via NTS. Is their anyone on this list who someone who
              could set something like that up?

              While K2BSA is a great thing at the Jambo, it competes with lots of
              other activities there for the Scouts attention. Setting up such an
              e-mail to NTS forwarding service would greatly increase Amateur
              Radio's exposure to attending Scouts and their parents back at home.

              Thoughts on this concept are appreciated.

              73

              Gary Wilson, K2GW
              Unit Commissioner
              Central New Jersey Council




              ------------------------------------

              Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

              Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
              to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

              Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
              http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

              Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
              http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

              SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links



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              08:57:00
            • Ray Brown
              ... From: Gary Wilson ... To those of us that download the messages into Outlook Express, it seemed to work okay. Yahoo is a strange critter.
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 18, 2009
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Gary Wilson" <k2gw@...>

                > --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Wilson" <k2gw@...> wrote:
                >
                > Yahoo filtered out the mock e-mail adress I used as an example for an e-
                > mail alias forwarder!
                >
                > It was " Troop411 at jambo dot net "

                To those of us that download the messages into Outlook Express, it seemed
                to work okay. Yahoo is a strange critter. One thing it did is that it cut off
                your Email address, as shown above.

                Anyway, short of setting up your own amateur radio satellite station,
                I don't know if there's an easy answer to your question.

                I'll admit that I'm not going, but a friend of mine here from Joplin,
                Ron Metz, KB0CMD, is signed up to represent our District and
                Council at K2BSA. I don't think he's on _here_, but I know he's
                on the 2010 list. So I'll try to get him here to chime in. :-)


                Ray, KB0STN
              • Gary Wilson
                ... Bob: APRS messaging is great. We use it for messages between EOC s here in NJ. But the specific technology used to send the messages isn t the point.
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 20, 2009
                  --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@...>
                  wrote:

                  >
                  > The APRS system is already set up to be able to send and receive
                  > Text Message Emails in real time to/from any APRS radio keypad
                  > to/from anywhere in the world directly to the recepient.

                  Bob:

                  APRS messaging is great. We use it for messages between EOC's here
                  in NJ.

                  But the specific technology used to send the messages isn't the
                  point. It's providing a simple e-mail capability for NON-HAM
                  PARENTS who don't know APRS from CW from NTS from DXCC to originate
                  the messages in the first place. We need to have a simple method for
                  them to get the messages to a local ham in their area to review their
                  appropriateness and to get them on their way.

                  I used e-mail from the parents in our district to myself to start
                  things here locally in 2005. I was suggesting something similar
                  nationwide.

                  But I have now been told that message handling between K2BSA to the
                  individual sub-camps for the final mile has been problemeatic in the
                  past. Perhaps the K2BSA staff will make that a priority to solve
                  right now. Whether it's APRS, voice nets or something as basic as
                  sending a K2BSA staff member on the bus to make a daily drop of the
                  written messages at each of the sub-camps post offices, it really
                  doesn't matter.

                  But unless that is solved quickly, the whole idea of using this a s
                  way of making every Scout and their parents aware of Aateur Radio is
                  irrelevant.

                  73

                  Gary, K2GW
                • Gary Wilson
                  ... council ... I did. ... The flyer wasn t attached. Look in the files here. Is that the same one? How would a parent know whom to contact? 73 Gary, K2GW
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 20, 2009
                    --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen M. Shearer" <wb3lgc@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > The (hopefully) attached "K2BSA and you..." flier was used at the 2005
                    > Jamboree for K2BSA. My boys had a copy that was passed out to our
                    council
                    > troops. I don't remember where I got a copy before the Jamboree, but
                    I did.
                    > They were also given out at K2BSA, at the Jamboree.

                    The flyer wasn't attached. Look in the files here. Is that the same
                    one? How would a parent know whom to contact?

                    73

                    Gary, K2GW
                  • Bob Bruninga
                    ... If that is the goal, then I think success has a huge challenge. This concept appears to me to be backwards to normal Amateur Radio message
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
                      If I could offer some comments regarding Amateur Radio Email at Jamboree:

                      > But the specific technology used to send
                      > the messages isn't the point. It's
                      > providing a simple e-mail capability
                      > for NON-HAM PARENTS who don't know APRS
                      > from CW from NTS from DXCC to originate
                      > the messages in the first place.

                      If that is the goal, then I think success has a huge challenge.

                      This concept appears to me to be backwards to normal Amateur Radio message experience/preparedness. Amateur radio historically is set up to take messages -from- the scene and deliver them -out- to those back home, not inbound.

                      > But I have now been told that message
                      > handling between K2BSA to the individual
                      > sub-camps for the final mile has been
                      > problemeatic in the past.

                      Exactly, a flood of "junk" mail from parents to kids who are too busy or probably not interested would be a significant and I fear disappointing challenge. Better to focus on the normal amateur radio process of messages -out- of the area.

                      > But unless that is solved quickly, the
                      > whole idea of using this as way of making
                      > every Scout and their parents aware of
                      > Amateur Radio is irrelevant.

                      I agree. So I think the way to do this is to not try to do the hardest possible email process (inbound), but to reverse it and do the easiest one (outbound), and the one that exists now without any preparation required. Getting messages -out- of a concentrated situation back to home is the process that amateur radio has always excelled in, because the focus and effort is -at- the end where the dedicated hams are, not spread out all over the country.

                      The following two lists compare the issues involved with messaging -from- and -to- Jamboree:

                      OUTBOUND using APRS:

                      1) The end-to-end process is automatic and exists
                      2) Any APRS mobile or HT can send the message
                      3) Email delivery to parents is automatic
                      4) Requires No support outside of Jamboree
                      5) Uses Text Messaging which is very popular with kids
                      6) Shows the value of Amateur Radio "at the scene"
                      7) Amateur operator is at the point of origination
                      8) Needs nothing but individuals at Jamboree to do it
                      9) Parents get "value" of hearing from kid
                      10) No intrusion into the Jamboree experience from outside

                      In other words its there, it exists, it works.

                      Now looking at the converse points for the inbound email process, and it is easy to see how the difficulties are nearly insurmountable:

                      INBOUND EMAIL:

                      1) The process does not yet exist
                      2) There is no method of end-delivery
                      3) Email delivery to kids is manual
                      4) Requires significant support outside of Jamboree
                      5) Uses ancient amateur traffic handling methods
                      6) Shows the difficulty of messaging -into- a scene
                      7) Huge problem of Amateur not at the point of origination
                      8) Needs huge undertaking to implement
                      9) Kids ascribe less "value" of hearing from parents
                      10) Intrudes into the Jamboree experience from outside

                      So the path of least resistance and therefore the highest probabilty of success in my opinion is to concentrate on the OUTBOUND direction which Amateur Radio has always provided at the "scene".

                      Please ignore my background with APRS. I am not trying to push it. I am just speaking from my experience in Ham radio of generally looking for ways to use what exists to do something useful at special events, and avoiding methods that take a lot of structure and coordination and preparation for success.

                      Thanks
                      Bob, Wb4APR
                    • Mark Phillips
                      OK, It s about time I put my boots on and jumped in with both feet here. I totally disagree that APRS is in any way suitable for email in either direction. I m
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
                        OK, It's about time I put my boots on and jumped in with both feet here.

                        I totally disagree that APRS is in any way suitable for email in either
                        direction. I'm not trying to put Bob's system down (I've been running it
                        in my car for the past 10 years) but it does seem to me to be a square
                        peg in a round hole solution.

                        Why can you not build a simple AX25/TCPIP network using something like
                        JNOS on old PC's? Equip each sub camp with a suitable terminal and let
                        the mail flow. You could then forward the emails to the Internet at the
                        nearest gateway (there's bound to be Internet on the site somewhere).
                        Using something like JNOS means that you can use all your familiar
                        Windows tools to create/view messages. As there would be no urgency in
                        the emails one wouldn't have to worry about the time it takes to spool
                        emails over the network to the central SMTP server.

                        The advantage of this is that you can use most any crap you can find and
                        are not required to use particular radio equipment or indeed any
                        particular frequency.

                        In NYC during 9/11 our JNOS system worked flawlessly across 9 different
                        sites with email on both directions. I would agree with Bob however in
                        that you should only be concerned with outbound mail. The backend
                        networking required to deliver messages to remote terminals would be
                        very difficult.

                        What email address would Billy's mother send her mail to? How would
                        Billy even know he has email? How then would Billy get access to his
                        mothers email?

                        The only practical way this could be done would be for each Jamboree
                        participant to register with some central system thus creating their
                        account. They would then have to check that account periodicly for mail.

                        At least with outbound mail Billy's mother knows he's having a good
                        time.

                        <GRIN> Not that I've done any of this before or anything </GRIN>

                        Mark





                        On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 08:21 -0500, Bob Bruninga wrote:
                        > If I could offer some comments regarding Amateur Radio Email at Jamboree:
                        >
                        > > But the specific technology used to send
                        > > the messages isn't the point. It's
                        > > providing a simple e-mail capability
                        > > for NON-HAM PARENTS who don't know APRS
                        > > from CW from NTS from DXCC to originate
                        > > the messages in the first place.
                        >
                        > If that is the goal, then I think success has a huge challenge.
                        >
                        > This concept appears to me to be backwards to normal Amateur Radio message experience/preparedness. Amateur radio historically is set up to take messages -from- the scene and deliver them -out- to those back home, not inbound.
                        >
                        > > But I have now been told that message
                        > > handling between K2BSA to the individual
                        > > sub-camps for the final mile has been
                        > > problemeatic in the past.
                        >
                        > Exactly, a flood of "junk" mail from parents to kids who are too busy or probably not interested would be a significant and I fear disappointing challenge. Better to focus on the normal amateur radio process of messages -out- of the area.
                        >
                        > > But unless that is solved quickly, the
                        > > whole idea of using this as way of making
                        > > every Scout and their parents aware of
                        > > Amateur Radio is irrelevant.
                        >
                        > I agree. So I think the way to do this is to not try to do the hardest possible email process (inbound), but to reverse it and do the easiest one (outbound), and the one that exists now without any preparation required. Getting messages -out- of a concentrated situation back to home is the process that amateur radio has always excelled in, because the focus and effort is -at- the end where the dedicated hams are, not spread out all over the country.
                        >
                        > The following two lists compare the issues involved with messaging -from- and -to- Jamboree:
                        >
                        > OUTBOUND using APRS:
                        >
                        > 1) The end-to-end process is automatic and exists
                        > 2) Any APRS mobile or HT can send the message
                        > 3) Email delivery to parents is automatic
                        > 4) Requires No support outside of Jamboree
                        > 5) Uses Text Messaging which is very popular with kids
                        > 6) Shows the value of Amateur Radio "at the scene"
                        > 7) Amateur operator is at the point of origination
                        > 8) Needs nothing but individuals at Jamboree to do it
                        > 9) Parents get "value" of hearing from kid
                        > 10) No intrusion into the Jamboree experience from outside
                        >
                        > In other words its there, it exists, it works.
                        >
                        > Now looking at the converse points for the inbound email process, and it is easy to see how the difficulties are nearly insurmountable:
                        >
                        > INBOUND EMAIL:
                        >
                        > 1) The process does not yet exist
                        > 2) There is no method of end-delivery
                        > 3) Email delivery to kids is manual
                        > 4) Requires significant support outside of Jamboree
                        > 5) Uses ancient amateur traffic handling methods
                        > 6) Shows the difficulty of messaging -into- a scene
                        > 7) Huge problem of Amateur not at the point of origination
                        > 8) Needs huge undertaking to implement
                        > 9) Kids ascribe less "value" of hearing from parents
                        > 10) Intrudes into the Jamboree experience from outside
                        >
                        > So the path of least resistance and therefore the highest probabilty of success in my opinion is to concentrate on the OUTBOUND direction which Amateur Radio has always provided at the "scene".
                        >
                        > Please ignore my background with APRS. I am not trying to push it. I am just speaking from my experience in Ham radio of generally looking for ways to use what exists to do something useful at special events, and avoiding methods that take a lot of structure and coordination and preparation for success.
                        >
                        > Thanks
                        > Bob, Wb4APR
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                        >
                        > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                        >
                        > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                        > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                        >
                        > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                        > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                        >
                        > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        --



                        Mark Phillips, G7LTT/NI2O
                        Randolph, NJ
                      • Bob Bruninga
                        Interesting. I am visiting my inlaws in Fredricksburg VA (only 5 miles form FOrt AP hill and just mentioned the Jamboree (and ham radio) and they said, ...
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
                          Interesting. I am visiting my inlaws in Fredricksburg VA (only 5 miles form FOrt AP hill and just mentioned the Jamboree (and ham radio) and they said, ... huh? THe jamboree has been moved and is not at AP hill this time? Its been in all the local papers? THey said it was to be down south somewhere maybe tenessee?

                          Now again, this could all be totally uninformed, since they are not scouts, or radio, just locals in the FT AP Hill neighborhood who just concindentely remembering hearing something like that. Is this an illinformed rumor?

                          Bob, WB4APR


                          ---- Original message ----
                          >Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:12:29 -0500
                          >From: Mark Phillips <g7ltt@...>
                          >Subject: Re: [ScoutRadio] Re: Amateur Radio Email at the Jamboree
                          >To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >OK, It's about time I put my boots on and jumped in with both feet here.
                          >
                          >I totally disagree that APRS is in any way suitable for email in either
                          >direction. I'm not trying to put Bob's system down (I've been running it
                          >in my car for the past 10 years) but it does seem to me to be a square
                          >peg in a round hole solution.
                          >
                          >Why can you not build a simple AX25/TCPIP network using something like
                          >JNOS on old PC's? Equip each sub camp with a suitable terminal and let
                          >the mail flow. You could then forward the emails to the Internet at the
                          >nearest gateway (there's bound to be Internet on the site somewhere).
                          >Using something like JNOS means that you can use all your familiar
                          >Windows tools to create/view messages. As there would be no urgency in
                          >the emails one wouldn't have to worry about the time it takes to spool
                          >emails over the network to the central SMTP server.
                          >
                          >The advantage of this is that you can use most any crap you can find and
                          >are not required to use particular radio equipment or indeed any
                          >particular frequency.
                          >
                          >In NYC during 9/11 our JNOS system worked flawlessly across 9 different
                          >sites with email on both directions. I would agree with Bob however in
                          >that you should only be concerned with outbound mail. The backend
                          >networking required to deliver messages to remote terminals would be
                          >very difficult.
                          >
                          >What email address would Billy's mother send her mail to? How would
                          >Billy even know he has email? How then would Billy get access to his
                          >mothers email?
                          >
                          >The only practical way this could be done would be for each Jamboree
                          >participant to register with some central system thus creating their
                          >account. They would then have to check that account periodicly for mail.
                          >
                          >At least with outbound mail Billy's mother knows he's having a good
                          >time.
                          >
                          ><GRIN> Not that I've done any of this before or anything </GRIN>
                          >
                          >Mark
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 08:21 -0500, Bob Bruninga wrote:
                          >> If I could offer some comments regarding Amateur Radio Email at Jamboree:
                          >>
                          >> > But the specific technology used to send
                          >> > the messages isn't the point. It's
                          >> > providing a simple e-mail capability
                          >> > for NON-HAM PARENTS who don't know APRS
                          >> > from CW from NTS from DXCC to originate
                          >> > the messages in the first place.
                          >>
                          >> If that is the goal, then I think success has a huge challenge.
                          >>
                          >> This concept appears to me to be backwards to normal Amateur Radio message experience/preparedness. Amateur radio historically is set up to take messages -from- the scene and deliver them -out- to those back home, not inbound.
                          >>
                          >> > But I have now been told that message
                          >> > handling between K2BSA to the individual
                          >> > sub-camps for the final mile has been
                          >> > problemeatic in the past.
                          >>
                          >> Exactly, a flood of "junk" mail from parents to kids who are too busy or probably not interested would be a significant and I fear disappointing challenge. Better to focus on the normal amateur radio process of messages -out- of the area.
                          >>
                          >> > But unless that is solved quickly, the
                          >> > whole idea of using this as way of making
                          >> > every Scout and their parents aware of
                          >> > Amateur Radio is irrelevant.
                          >>
                          >> I agree. So I think the way to do this is to not try to do the hardest possible email process (inbound), but to reverse it and do the easiest one (outbound), and the one that exists now without any preparation required. Getting messages -out- of a concentrated situation back to home is the process that amateur radio has always excelled in, because the focus and effort is -at- the end where the dedicated hams are, not spread out all over the country.
                          >>
                          >> The following two lists compare the issues involved with messaging -from- and -to- Jamboree:
                          >>
                          >> OUTBOUND using APRS:
                          >>
                          >> 1) The end-to-end process is automatic and exists
                          >> 2) Any APRS mobile or HT can send the message
                          >> 3) Email delivery to parents is automatic
                          >> 4) Requires No support outside of Jamboree
                          >> 5) Uses Text Messaging which is very popular with kids
                          >> 6) Shows the value of Amateur Radio "at the scene"
                          >> 7) Amateur operator is at the point of origination
                          >> 8) Needs nothing but individuals at Jamboree to do it
                          >> 9) Parents get "value" of hearing from kid
                          >> 10) No intrusion into the Jamboree experience from outside
                          >>
                          >> In other words its there, it exists, it works.
                          >>
                          >> Now looking at the converse points for the inbound email process, and it is easy to see how the difficulties are nearly insurmountable:
                          >>
                          >> INBOUND EMAIL:
                          >>
                          >> 1) The process does not yet exist
                          >> 2) There is no method of end-delivery
                          >> 3) Email delivery to kids is manual
                          >> 4) Requires significant support outside of Jamboree
                          >> 5) Uses ancient amateur traffic handling methods
                          >> 6) Shows the difficulty of messaging -into- a scene
                          >> 7) Huge problem of Amateur not at the point of origination
                          >> 8) Needs huge undertaking to implement
                          >> 9) Kids ascribe less "value" of hearing from parents
                          >> 10) Intrudes into the Jamboree experience from outside
                          >>
                          >> So the path of least resistance and therefore the highest probabilty of success in my opinion is to concentrate on the OUTBOUND direction which Amateur Radio has always provided at the "scene".
                          >>
                          >> Please ignore my background with APRS. I am not trying to push it. I am just speaking from my experience in Ham radio of generally looking for ways to use what exists to do something useful at special events, and avoiding methods that take a lot of structure and coordination and preparation for success.
                          >>
                          >> Thanks
                          >> Bob, Wb4APR
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> ------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                          >>
                          >> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                          >>
                          >> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                          >> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                          >>
                          >> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                          >> http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                          >>
                          >> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >--
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Mark Phillips, G7LTT/NI2O
                          >Randolph, NJ
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >------------------------------------
                          >
                          >Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                          >
                          >Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                          >
                          >Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                          >http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                          >
                          >Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                          >http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                          >
                          >SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Bob Davidson
                          Hi Bob, The only thing I ve seen is on the NCAC web site and it notes that the 2010 Jamboree will take place at A.P. Hill, but afterwards they will be held at
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
                            Hi Bob,
                              The only thing I've seen is on the NCAC web site and it notes that the
                            2010 Jamboree will take place at A.P. Hill, but afterwards they will be
                            held at Goshen Scout Reservation.
                             
                            Vr
                            Bob
                            KB3KOW

                            On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...> wrote:

                            Interesting. I am visiting my inlaws in Fredricksburg VA (only 5 miles form FOrt AP hill and just mentioned the Jamboree (and ham radio) and they said, ... huh? THe jamboree has been moved and is not at AP hill this time? Its been in all the local papers? THey said it was to be down south somewhere maybe tenessee?

                            Now again, this could all be totally uninformed, since they are not scouts, or radio, just locals in the FT AP Hill neighborhood who just concindentely remembering hearing something like that. Is this an illinformed rumor?

                            Bob, WB4APR



                            ---- Original message ----
                            >Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:12:29 -0500
                            >From: Mark Phillips <g7ltt@...>
                            >Subject: Re: [ScoutRadio] Re: Amateur Radio Email at the Jamboree
                            >To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >OK, It's about time I put my boots on and jumped in with both feet here.
                            >
                            >I totally disagree that APRS is in any way suitable for email in either
                            >direction. I'm not trying to put Bob's system down (I've been running it
                            >in my car for the past 10 years) but it does seem to me to be a square
                            >peg in a round hole solution.
                            >
                            >Why can you not build a simple AX25/TCPIP network using something like
                            >JNOS on old PC's? Equip each sub camp with a suitable terminal and let
                            >the mail flow. You could then forward the emails to the Internet at the
                            >nearest gateway (there's bound to be Internet on the site somewhere).
                            >Using something like JNOS means that you can use all your familiar
                            >Windows tools to create/view messages. As there would be no urgency in
                            >the emails one wouldn't have to worry about the time it takes to spool
                            >emails over the network to the central SMTP server.
                            >
                            >The advantage of this is that you can use most any crap you can find and
                            >are not required to use particular radio equipment or indeed any
                            >particular frequency.
                            >
                            >In NYC during 9/11 our JNOS system worked flawlessly across 9 different
                            >sites with email on both directions. I would agree with Bob however in
                            >that you should only be concerned with outbound mail. The backend
                            >networking required to deliver messages to remote terminals would be
                            >very difficult.
                            >
                            >What email address would Billy's mother send her mail to? How would
                            >Billy even know he has email? How then would Billy get access to his
                            >mothers email?
                            >
                            >The only practical way this could be done would be for each Jamboree
                            >participant to register with some central system thus creating their
                            >account. They would then have to check that account periodicly for mail.
                            >
                            >At least with outbound mail Billy's mother knows he's having a good
                            >time.
                            >
                            ><GRIN> Not that I've done any of this before or anything </GRIN>
                            >
                            >Mark
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 08:21 -0500, Bob Bruninga wrote:
                            >> If I could offer some comments regarding Amateur Radio Email at Jamboree:
                            >>
                            >> > But the specific technology used to send
                            >> > the messages isn't the point. It's
                            >> > providing a simple e-mail capability
                            >> > for NON-HAM PARENTS who don't know APRS
                            >> > from CW from NTS from DXCC to originate
                            >> > the messages in the first place.
                            >>
                            >> If that is the goal, then I think success has a huge challenge.
                            >>
                            >> This concept appears to me to be backwards to normal Amateur Radio message experience/preparedness. Amateur radio historically is set up to take messages -from- the scene and deliver them -out- to those back home, not inbound.
                            >>
                            >> > But I have now been told that message
                            >> > handling between K2BSA to the individual
                            >> > sub-camps for the final mile has been
                            >> > problemeatic in the past.
                            >>
                            >> Exactly, a flood of "junk" mail from parents to kids who are too busy or probably not interested would be a significant and I fear disappointing challenge. Better to focus on the normal amateur radio process of messages -out- of the area.
                            >>
                            >> > But unless that is solved quickly, the
                            >> > whole idea of using this as way of making
                            >> > every Scout and their parents aware of
                            >> > Amateur Radio is irrelevant.
                            >>
                            >> I agree. So I think the way to do this is to not try to do the hardest possible email process (inbound), but to reverse it and do the easiest one (outbound), and the one that exists now without any preparation required. Getting messages -out- of a concentrated situation back to home is the process that amateur radio has always excelled in, because the focus and effort is -at- the end where the dedicated hams are, not spread out all over the country.
                            >>
                            >> The following two lists compare the issues involved with messaging -from- and -to- Jamboree:
                            >>
                            >> OUTBOUND using APRS:
                            >>
                            >> 1) The end-to-end process is automatic and exists
                            >> 2) Any APRS mobile or HT can send the message
                            >> 3) Email delivery to parents is automatic
                            >> 4) Requires No support outside of Jamboree
                            >> 5) Uses Text Messaging which is very popular with kids
                            >> 6) Shows the value of Amateur Radio "at the scene"
                            >> 7) Amateur operator is at the point of origination
                            >> 8) Needs nothing but individuals at Jamboree to do it
                            >> 9) Parents get "value" of hearing from kid
                            >> 10) No intrusion into the Jamboree experience from outside
                            >>
                            >> In other words its there, it exists, it works.
                            >>
                            >> Now looking at the converse points for the inbound email process, and it is easy to see how the difficulties are nearly insurmountable:
                            >>
                            >> INBOUND EMAIL:
                            >>
                            >> 1) The process does not yet exist
                            >> 2) There is no method of end-delivery
                            >> 3) Email delivery to kids is manual
                            >> 4) Requires significant support outside of Jamboree
                            >> 5) Uses ancient amateur traffic handling methods
                            >> 6) Shows the difficulty of messaging -into- a scene
                            >> 7) Huge problem of Amateur not at the point of origination
                            >> 8) Needs huge undertaking to implement
                            >> 9) Kids ascribe less "value" of hearing from parents
                            >> 10) Intrudes into the Jamboree experience from outside
                            >>
                            >> So the path of least resistance and therefore the highest probabilty of success in my opinion is to concentrate on the OUTBOUND direction which Amateur Radio has always provided at the "scene".
                            >>
                            >> Please ignore my background with APRS. I am not trying to push it. I am just speaking from my experience in Ham radio of generally looking for ways to use what exists to do something useful at special events, and avoiding methods that take a lot of structure and coordination and preparation for success.
                            >>
                            >> Thanks
                            >> Bob, Wb4APR
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ------------------------------------
                            >>
                            >> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                            >>
                            >> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                            >>
                            >> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                            >> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                            >>
                            >> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                            >> http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                            >>
                            >> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >--
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Mark Phillips, G7LTT/NI2O
                            >Randolph, NJ
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >------------------------------------
                            >
                            >Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                            >
                            >Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                            >
                            >Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                            >http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                            >
                            >Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                            >http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                            >
                            >SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >


                          • n5gui
                            In his recent post Bob Bruninga, Wb4APR, makes a well considered case that outgoing traffic (email from Scouts to home) would be much easier to impliment and
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
                              In his recent post Bob Bruninga, Wb4APR, makes a well considered
                              case that outgoing traffic (email from Scouts to home) would be much
                              easier to impliment and to maintain. I cannot fault his logic or the
                              validity of his arguments.

                              That said, I would like to offer a counter thought: Just because
                              incoming traffic would be a difficult task and would certainly
                              require significant resources, that does not mean that it is not
                              worth doing.

                              Indeed, are we not, as leaders within the Scouting organization and
                              those who strive for the success of Scouting, trying to teach
                              integrity and character? Speaking for myself, I would rather be an
                              example of "do what is right and worthwhile, even if it is difficult
                              or unpopular" rather than "do only what is easy". I am not much of
                              an example and I seldom think of inspiring word. However, this
                              reminds me of a speech given at Rice University on September 12,
                              1962.

                              "...We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other
                              things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard,
                              because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our
                              energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are
                              willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which
                              we intend to win, and the others, too... "

                              If you do not recognize those as the word of President Kennedy, then
                              I would guess that you are far younger than I. I have had a long
                              time to consider the meaning. I admit that at first I thought it
                              was odd, perhaps even wrong. I would rather think that we should
                              choose to do what is important. To do what is right whether or not
                              is is hard. There does not seem to be a logic in doing something
                              because it is hard to do. Yet, he said it... And later this year
                              the United States will celebrate the 40th anniversary of the
                              accomplishment of the goal he set.

                              Does this in some way relate to the suggestion to establish a system
                              of incomming email to the Jamboree? I really don't know. I would
                              have suggested that the people involved consider the idea on its
                              merits, taking into account the effort and resources needed against
                              the benefits. From that decide if it is worth doing. Then do it,
                              or not as the case may be.

                              Under that logic, the words of Wb4APR would suggest that it is hard
                              to do, therefore not worth doing. Maybe, it should be considered
                              worth doing, to set an example that we choose to do it, not because
                              it is easy, but because it is a goal that will serve to organize and
                              measure the best of our energies and skills.



                              James
                              n5gui
                            • Norm Huber
                              ... 2010 will be the last year at Ft. AP Hill. The Jamboree would have been this year except for the fact that 2010 is the 100th anniversary pf Scouting in the
                              Message 14 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
                                Bob Bruninga wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Interesting. I am visiting my inlaws in Fredricksburg VA (only 5 miles
                                > form FOrt AP hill and just mentioned the Jamboree (and ham radio) and
                                > they said, ... huh? THe jamboree has been moved and is not at AP hill
                                > this time? Its been in all the local papers? THey said it was to be down
                                > south somewhere maybe tenessee?
                                >
                                > Now again, this could all be totally uninformed, since they are not
                                > scouts, or radio, just locals in the FT AP Hill neighborhood who just
                                > concindentely remembering hearing something like that. Is this an
                                > illinformed rumor?
                                >
                                > Bob, WB4APR
                                2010 will be the last year at Ft. AP Hill. The Jamboree would have been
                                this year except for the fact that 2010 is the 100th anniversary pf
                                Scouting in the US. The next Jamboree will be moving but I have not
                                heard exactly where. Some have suggested a more central location so
                                western Tn would probably be a decent choice.
                                73
                                --
                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                ----- Norman Huber - N9ZKS - Central Illinois
                                ----- Unit Commissioner / Roundtable Staff / Assistant Scoutmaster
                              • Bob Bruninga
                                ... No problem at all. This is a good discussion, and I hope we can discuss all these issues so that we actually do get something working and dont just waste
                                Message 15 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
                                  > I totally disagree that APRS is in any way
                                  > suitable for email in either direction.
                                  > I'm not trying to put Bob's system down
                                  > (I've been running it in my car for 10 years)
                                  > but it does seem to me to be a square
                                  > peg in a round hole solution.

                                  No problem at all. This is a good discussion, and I hope we can discuss all these issues so that we actually do get something working and dont just waste the year talking about what could be done. I absolutley get excited about doing things new and bringing new technology to amateur radio.

                                  But I also now have 45 years experience at trying to do just that, and find that it is possbile to do a demo of high tech, but that it takes a HUGE groundswell of enthusiastic support to get it done. On the other hand, a lot of these excellent ideas are exciting, but often just never quite get around to working...

                                  So my more sober aproach to amateur radio these days is to plan on the fallback that is guaranteed to work first, and then add other wiz bang on top. SO lets compare what I am suggesting APRS text messaging emails back home, to the AX.25 Network approach. OK, first the APRS implementaion:

                                  1) Infrastructure consists of 1 radio and 1 TNC as a digi at camp AP Hill.

                                  2) Any Ham Scouter with his APRS HT, hands it to an interested kid, and says "here is ham radio, text an email to your mom". When he hits SEND, and the radio beeps back "MY MESsAGE" showing it was delivered, the job is done. And you explain how it happened.

                                  Now lets contrast that with the TCPIP/AX.25 approach. I'll take each proposed step from the email and list all the things that are needed:

                                  > 1) Why can you not build....
                                  > 2) a simple AX25/TCPIP network
                                  > 3) using something like JNOS
                                  > 4) on old PC's?
                                  > 5) Equip each sub camp...
                                  > 6) with a suitable terminal...
                                  > 7) and let the mail flow....
                                  > 8) then forward the emails to the Internet
                                  > 9) at the nearest gateway
                                  > 10 (there's bound to be Internet on the site somewhere).
                                  > 11) you can use all your familiar Windows tools
                                  > 12) to create/view messages.
                                  > 13) one wouldn't have to worry about the time
                                  > it takes to spool emails over the network
                                  > 14) to the central SMTP server.
                                  > 15) you can use most any [stuff] you can find
                                  > 16) not required to use particular radio equipment
                                  > 17) or indeed any particular frequency.

                                  And what the kid sees is just another PC application sending email.... that oh by the way might be connected to a radio somewhere.. Though I would absolutely LOVE to see such an in-field applicaiton of amateur radio, if we cannot even field one conventional radio in each subcamp, I just don't see how a full network would get done?

                                  > ... I would rather be an example of "do what
                                  > is right and worthwhile, even if it is difficult
                                  > or unpopular" rather than "do only what is easy".
                                  > ... Under that logic, the words of Wb4APR would
                                  > suggest that it is hard to do, therefore not
                                  > worth doing. Maybe, it should be considered
                                  > worth doing, to set an example that we choose to
                                  > do it, not because it is easy, but because it is
                                  > a goal that will serve to organize and measure
                                  > the best of our energies and skills.

                                  True. I would so love to see that kind of motivation in AMateur Radio. And it does work many times in local areas where there is a motivated group who takes on the full responsiblity to just get it done...

                                  So nothing I am sayning should in any way detract from such noble plans. BUT...

                                  *** anyone that has an APRS radio should bring it ***
                                  *** and know how to send an email with its keypad ***

                                  That's all I am suggesting. You will be AMAZED at the number of people who are "active on APRS" and have no clue how to send a message from their HT or radio. I'm just trying to correct that small piece of the puzzle.

                                  Bob, WB4APR


                                  >
                                  >On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 08:21 -0500, Bob Bruninga wrote:
                                  >> If I could offer some comments regarding Amateur Radio Email at Jamboree:
                                  >>
                                  >> > But the specific technology used to send
                                  >> > the messages isn't the point. It's
                                  >> > providing a simple e-mail capability
                                  >> > for NON-HAM PARENTS who don't know APRS
                                  >> > from CW from NTS from DXCC to originate
                                  >> > the messages in the first place.
                                  >>
                                  >> If that is the goal, then I think success has a huge challenge.
                                  >>
                                  >> This concept appears to me to be backwards to normal Amateur Radio message experience/preparedness. Amateur radio historically is set up to take messages -from- the scene and deliver them -out- to those back home, not inbound.
                                  >>
                                  >> > But I have now been told that message
                                  >> > handling between K2BSA to the individual
                                  >> > sub-camps for the final mile has been
                                  >> > problemeatic in the past.
                                  >>
                                  >> Exactly, a flood of "junk" mail from parents to kids who are too busy or probably not interested would be a significant and I fear disappointing challenge. Better to focus on the normal amateur radio process of messages -out- of the area.
                                  >>
                                  >> > But unless that is solved quickly, the
                                  >> > whole idea of using this as way of making
                                  >> > every Scout and their parents aware of
                                  >> > Amateur Radio is irrelevant.
                                  >>
                                  >> I agree. So I think the way to do this is to not try to do the hardest possible email process (inbound), but to reverse it and do the easiest one (outbound), and the one that exists now without any preparation required. Getting messages -out- of a concentrated situation back to home is the process that amateur radio has always excelled in, because the focus and effort is -at- the end where the dedicated hams are, not spread out all over the country.
                                  >>
                                  >> The following two lists compare the issues involved with messaging -from- and -to- Jamboree:
                                  >>
                                  >> OUTBOUND using APRS:
                                  >>
                                  >> 1) The end-to-end process is automatic and exists
                                  >> 2) Any APRS mobile or HT can send the message
                                  >> 3) Email delivery to parents is automatic
                                  >> 4) Requires No support outside of Jamboree
                                  >> 5) Uses Text Messaging which is very popular with kids
                                  >> 6) Shows the value of Amateur Radio "at the scene"
                                  >> 7) Amateur operator is at the point of origination
                                  >> 8) Needs nothing but individuals at Jamboree to do it
                                  >> 9) Parents get "value" of hearing from kid
                                  >> 10) No intrusion into the Jamboree experience from outside
                                  >>
                                  >> In other words its there, it exists, it works.
                                  >>
                                  >> Now looking at the converse points for the inbound email process, and it is easy to see how the difficulties are nearly insurmountable:
                                  >>
                                  >> INBOUND EMAIL:
                                  >>
                                  >> 1) The process does not yet exist
                                  >> 2) There is no method of end-delivery
                                  >> 3) Email delivery to kids is manual
                                  >> 4) Requires significant support outside of Jamboree
                                  >> 5) Uses ancient amateur traffic handling methods
                                  >> 6) Shows the difficulty of messaging -into- a scene
                                  >> 7) Huge problem of Amateur not at the point of origination
                                  >> 8) Needs huge undertaking to implement
                                  >> 9) Kids ascribe less "value" of hearing from parents
                                  >> 10) Intrudes into the Jamboree experience from outside
                                  >>
                                  >> So the path of least resistance and therefore the highest probabilty of success in my opinion is to concentrate on the OUTBOUND direction which Amateur Radio has always provided at the "scene".
                                  >>
                                  >> Please ignore my background with APRS. I am not trying to push it. I am just speaking from my experience in Ham radio of generally looking for ways to use what exists to do something useful at special events, and avoiding methods that take a lot of structure and coordination and preparation for success.
                                  >>
                                  >> Thanks
                                  >> Bob, Wb4APR
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> ------------------------------------
                                  >>
                                  >> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                                  >>
                                  >> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                                  >>
                                  >> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                  >> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                                  >>
                                  >> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                  >> http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                                  >>
                                  >> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >--
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Mark Phillips, G7LTT/NI2O
                                  >Randolph, NJ
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  >Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                                  >
                                  >Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                                  >
                                  >Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                  >http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                                  >
                                  >Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                  >http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                                  >
                                  >SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Dale Lamm
                                  Never been to a Jamboree, but have camped way over a hundred weekends and attended week-long summer camps for nine years. Volume of incoming mail (to summer
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
                                    Never been to a Jamboree, but have camped way over a hundred weekends and
                                    attended week-long summer camps for nine years. Volume of incoming mail (to
                                    summer camp) far outweighed outgoing mail. Mail call was always a high point
                                    of the day for Scouts who enjoyed an encouraging word from a parent. When my
                                    younger son joined camp staff and was away from home nine weeks a summer,
                                    sending mail to him became a pleasure and gave his mom and I comfort. I can
                                    still remember stuffing a few loose dollar bills in the envelopes and asking
                                    my son to treat someone who looked unhappy to a slushie, on me. Camp
                                    staffers don't get paid a whole lot, unless you value life experiences.

                                    Isn't there already a procedure in place to distribute snail mail from a
                                    Jambo central point to the outlying camps? If I were designing the most cost
                                    efficient way to get parental mail to Scouts, it would likely involve an
                                    email account at Jambo's post office and a fast printer. Print out the
                                    emails (with a proper physical camp address/unit number/whatever in the
                                    message body) and distribute them the same way as snail mail. How to get
                                    email into Jambo? If no route currently exists, short term rent a BGAN or
                                    EVDO terminal or enlist friendly hams to "gateway" the email to another
                                    friendly ham on the inside via "ham" RF. Parents could email from their
                                    homes to the outside gateway. There must be a dozen ways to get potentially
                                    thousands of messages into a temporary city of thousands of people. Shucks,
                                    burn them onto a DVD every morning and courier it in from a friendy ham
                                    nearby. The hard part is distributing to the individual units. That's why I
                                    wondered if there was a Jambo post office already set up to distribute paper
                                    mail, making use of what already exists.

                                    What's the ham payoff? Giving parents the ability to send an email to their
                                    Scout while he is away from home. Print the contents at the Jambo endpoint
                                    on paper forms with appropriate ham publicity on the header, just like an
                                    RCA Radiogram. Some of the printed messages might eventually be seen by
                                    parents when the Scout returns home.
                                  • Gary Wilson
                                    This is a good discussion. But we seem to jumping into the engineering details without first understanding the marketing concept first. So I m changing the
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Feb 22, 2009
                                      This is a good discussion. But we seem to jumping into the
                                      engineering details without first understanding the marketing concept
                                      first. So I'm changing the topic name back to the concept we need to
                                      agree upon first.

                                      Having personally been to a number of national jamborees and looking
                                      at the reports of past K2BSA activity there, you can see the
                                      following are reasonable averages for the past twenty years. Of the
                                      typical 240,000 attendees, staff, day visitors and vendors passing
                                      through a BSA National Jamboree, only about 10,000 actually visit the
                                      K2BSA exhibit and less than 1,000 sign the visitor log. It's just
                                      one of hundreds of things to do at a Jamboree.

                                      On the operating side, K2BSA typically makes about 2,000 to 3,000 HF
                                      contacts during a Jamboree. It also handles about 2,000 outbound
                                      pieces of NTS traffic and takes in about 400 NTS messages to Scouts,
                                      Staff and Leaders. Many of these later messages are "How you doing
                                      messages", but some are time critical messages such as "We can't come
                                      as planned on Monday, but we'll meet you at your troop site on
                                      Tuesday at 9AM", etc.

                                      Providing an automated way for folks to send outgoing Amateur Radio
                                      messages from K2BSA (After they have been reviewed by a ham for
                                      appropriateness) as Bob has suggested is a great idea. I hope he
                                      works to provide such a set-up to the K2BSA staff.

                                      But it doesn't mean that we should ignore our opportunity to place
                                      the words "Amateur Radio" in front of the 100,000 Scouts and parents
                                      beforehand by setting up a system to facilitate the parent's ability
                                      to originate messages to the Jamboree from home. This means making
                                      it simple for the parents to start the process after Johnny has
                                      left. And since we're going to eventually use the airwaves to send
                                      these, it means a licensed ham needs to read the messages before they
                                      ever hit RF.

                                      When personally not at a Jamboree, I've had good success with giving
                                      my personal e-mail address to the parents of Scouts in my council's
                                      contingents so they know how to get a message to their sons. What
                                      I'm proposing is to expand that idea from the 400 people who learn
                                      about Amateur Radio from me to all 35,000 Scouts and their 70,000
                                      parents nationwide

                                      An e-mail redirector is one way to do it and we might even get the
                                      existing ARRL one to handle it. For example when you send an e-mail
                                      to k2gw@... it just forwards it to my real e-mail address.
                                      Similarly, we could have ARRL forward something such as
                                      JamboOH@... for parents in Ohio to the Ohio Section Traffic
                                      Manager or his designee for forwarding. By divvying up the work
                                      regionally, we can make sure they're handled quickly but also are
                                      then able to establish a relationship with the parent to promote
                                      Amateur Radio later.

                                      Once a ham reviews the message for appropriateness, how they start it
                                      on its way to K2BSA is up to them. In my case, I tend to load them
                                      onto our local Packet BBS which digitally forwards them to the
                                      Virginia NTS Nets for relay to K2BSA.

                                      Now to automate things inbound to K2BSA, there should be a discussion
                                      between the Virginia Section Traffic Manager to what automated tools
                                      might link Virginia NTS and K2BSA together for digital traffic. And
                                      K2BSA needs to make sure that the messages get delivered to the sub-
                                      camp post office on a daily basis.

                                      So do we agree that this opportunity to promote Amateur Radio to very
                                      wide audience (much more than the kids at the Jambo) is too a good
                                      thing to ignore? If we don't, then all the technical discussion as
                                      to how to do it is irrelevant.

                                      73

                                      Gary Wilson, K2GW
                                      ARRL PIO
                                    • rahwayflynn
                                      ... Gary clearly states the question: Is there a need for Amateur Radio in this role? I believe there is, despite the plans of the major carriers to deploy
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Feb 22, 2009
                                        --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Wilson" <k2gw@...> wrote:

                                        > So do we agree that this opportunity to promote Amateur Radio to very
                                        > wide audience (much more than the kids at the Jambo) is too a good
                                        > thing to ignore? If we don't, then all the technical discussion as
                                        > to how to do it is irrelevant.

                                        Gary clearly states the question: Is there a need for Amateur Radio in
                                        this role? I believe there is, despite the plans of the major
                                        carriers to deploy portable cellular and PCS infrastructure.

                                        With that in mind, another way to approach this might be to re-visit
                                        the Western Union Mailgram product and build a similar functionality.

                                        Use the existing ARRL NTS system to send the message via an
                                        appropriate amateur data protocol terminating at W2BSA. Addressing
                                        could use the scout / adult Name, troop, sub camp number. Place a
                                        local printer at W2BSA (laser, high speed). Message is formatted,
                                        printed, and delivered to the indicated sub camp via the existing
                                        postal system.

                                        PS - If you really wanted to go retro, The font HPLHS-Telegram is a
                                        very close copy of the font used by the Western Union and RCA
                                        radiograms. I have it loaded on a local laser printer, along with
                                        facsimile canary yellow paper with the classic Western Union header.

                                        Martin W2RWJ
                                      • Stephen M. Shearer
                                        Gary, Yes, the same file. As you can see, it s not aimed at the parents. I gave them out to get the boys in my council so that they would come and see
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Feb 22, 2009
                                          Gary,
                                          Yes, the same file.
                                          As you can see, it's not aimed at the parents. I gave them out to get the
                                          boys in my council so that they would come and see K2BSA/4. Part of the
                                          challenge for those that made the trip to K2BSA, was finding it. It was
                                          part of the "stamp your passport" program, but it wasn't on the map in 2005
                                          and I don't see it on the (current) 2010 map either, so the boys and adults
                                          that found it, wanted to.

                                          73, Steve

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
                                          Behalf Of Gary Wilson
                                          Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 10:22 PM
                                          To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [ScoutRadio] Re: Using the 2010 Jamboree to Promote Amateur Radio

                                          --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen M. Shearer" <wb3lgc@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > The (hopefully) attached "K2BSA and you..." flier was used at the 2005
                                          > Jamboree for K2BSA. My boys had a copy that was passed out to our
                                          council
                                          > troops. I don't remember where I got a copy before the Jamboree, but
                                          I did.
                                          > They were also given out at K2BSA, at the Jamboree.

                                          The flyer wasn't attached. Look in the files here. Is that the same
                                          one? How would a parent know whom to contact?

                                          73

                                          Gary, K2GW
                                        • Stephen M. Shearer
                                          Some other things to keep in mind. 1. Sunspot numbers were poor in 2005 and the way things are going... 2010 may not be any better. 2. Many boys do use
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Feb 22, 2009
                                            Some other things to keep in mind.

                                            1. Sunspot numbers were poor in 2005 and the way things are going... 2010
                                            may not be any better.
                                            2. Many boys do use K2BSA to "phone home" with the help of local hams. The
                                            boys can make a sked in the evening to reserve the time/freq. Not as easy
                                            to set up as sending a radiogram.
                                            3. If you doubled the station visitors (would be nice) then the staff
                                            and/or the station may not be able to handle the number of visitors. Don't
                                            forget the Merit badge midway. Radio MB and License class required a staff
                                            to run them also. If you double the interest, it may also create a (nice)
                                            problem.

                                            No matter what... Keep it Simple and make it Fun.


                                            73, Steve

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
                                            Behalf Of Gary Wilson
                                            Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:38 AM
                                            To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [ScoutRadio] Increasing Amateur Radio's Public Exposure through the
                                            National Jamboree

                                            This is a good discussion. But we seem to jumping into the
                                            engineering details without first understanding the marketing concept
                                            first. So I'm changing the topic name back to the concept we need to
                                            agree upon first.

                                            Having personally been to a number of national jamborees and looking
                                            at the reports of past K2BSA activity there, you can see the
                                            following are reasonable averages for the past twenty years. Of the
                                            typical 240,000 attendees, staff, day visitors and vendors passing
                                            through a BSA National Jamboree, only about 10,000 actually visit the
                                            K2BSA exhibit and less than 1,000 sign the visitor log. It's just
                                            one of hundreds of things to do at a Jamboree.

                                            On the operating side, K2BSA typically makes about 2,000 to 3,000 HF
                                            contacts during a Jamboree. It also handles about 2,000 outbound
                                            pieces of NTS traffic and takes in about 400 NTS messages to Scouts,
                                            Staff and Leaders. Many of these later messages are "How you doing
                                            messages", but some are time critical messages such as "We can't come
                                            as planned on Monday, but we'll meet you at your troop site on
                                            Tuesday at 9AM", etc.

                                            Providing an automated way for folks to send outgoing Amateur Radio
                                            messages from K2BSA (After they have been reviewed by a ham for
                                            appropriateness) as Bob has suggested is a great idea. I hope he
                                            works to provide such a set-up to the K2BSA staff.

                                            But it doesn't mean that we should ignore our opportunity to place
                                            the words "Amateur Radio" in front of the 100,000 Scouts and parents
                                            beforehand by setting up a system to facilitate the parent's ability
                                            to originate messages to the Jamboree from home. This means making
                                            it simple for the parents to start the process after Johnny has
                                            left. And since we're going to eventually use the airwaves to send
                                            these, it means a licensed ham needs to read the messages before they
                                            ever hit RF.

                                            When personally not at a Jamboree, I've had good success with giving
                                            my personal e-mail address to the parents of Scouts in my council's
                                            contingents so they know how to get a message to their sons. What
                                            I'm proposing is to expand that idea from the 400 people who learn
                                            about Amateur Radio from me to all 35,000 Scouts and their 70,000
                                            parents nationwide

                                            An e-mail redirector is one way to do it and we might even get the
                                            existing ARRL one to handle it. For example when you send an e-mail
                                            to k2gw@... it just forwards it to my real e-mail address.
                                            Similarly, we could have ARRL forward something such as
                                            JamboOH@... for parents in Ohio to the Ohio Section Traffic
                                            Manager or his designee for forwarding. By divvying up the work
                                            regionally, we can make sure they're handled quickly but also are
                                            then able to establish a relationship with the parent to promote
                                            Amateur Radio later.

                                            Once a ham reviews the message for appropriateness, how they start it
                                            on its way to K2BSA is up to them. In my case, I tend to load them
                                            onto our local Packet BBS which digitally forwards them to the
                                            Virginia NTS Nets for relay to K2BSA.

                                            Now to automate things inbound to K2BSA, there should be a discussion
                                            between the Virginia Section Traffic Manager to what automated tools
                                            might link Virginia NTS and K2BSA together for digital traffic. And
                                            K2BSA needs to make sure that the messages get delivered to the sub-
                                            camp post office on a daily basis.

                                            So do we agree that this opportunity to promote Amateur Radio to very
                                            wide audience (much more than the kids at the Jambo) is too a good
                                            thing to ignore? If we don't, then all the technical discussion as
                                            to how to do it is irrelevant.

                                            73

                                            Gary Wilson, K2GW
                                            ARRL PIO




                                            ------------------------------------

                                            Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                                            Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
                                            to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                                            Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                            http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                                            Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                            http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                                            SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links



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