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Re: [ScoutRadio] Jamboree 2010

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  • Bob Bruninga
    Can anyone think of a need at Jamboree for amateur radio reporting of some simple digital data back to HQ? Something like troop numbers and scores. Or trrop
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 15, 2009
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      Can anyone think of a need at Jamboree for amateur radio reporting of some simple digital data back to HQ? Something like troop numbers and scores. Or trrop numbers and head counts?

      Locally we have used APRS HT's for reporting back to HQ the troop numbers and scores at camporee's see www.aprs.org/aprsevent.html

      but in the past this has needed people with APRS radios. But NOW we have a DTMF decoding and text message display program that can receive text messsages from ANY HT with a DTMF pad. this means 100% of all volunteers at each point can send in short text messages or numeric data to HQ.

      All the HT owner does is pre-load his header info into a DTMF memory on his HT, then a single button will send the header and then he can use the TTpad to enter something like 995 8. Meaning a score of 8 for troop 995. or 8 people reporting from 995, etc. On reecpit at HQ it could look like this:
      see www.aprs.org/messages/DTMFdecode.GIF

      This uses the DTMF text-paging formats built into tens of thousands of existing amateur radio HT's, but then allows ANY other HT's to at least send these text messages.
      Please see www.aprs.org/FT51-TH78.html

      Yes, this is a solution looking for a problem... BUT it is TEXT MESSAGING on amateur radio and every kid in america with a cell phone is hooked on text messaging, or envious of those kids that do. Lets show them we can do it too!

      Oh, and maybe we need a list of all volunteers to Jamboree that can bring one of these FT51,41,11 or TH78 radios. THey can do two-way text messaging. Every other HT can only do one-way to send messages to net control. Oh, also if they have a D7, D700, D710, VX8R APRS radio or GPS tracker too?

      Bob, Wb4APR
    • Jeff
      We have had great luck with MT63 running under NBEMS and the new mini-sized xp computers. Works with any analog 2-way and can send whatever you need to without
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 15, 2009
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        We have had great luck with MT63 running under NBEMS
        and the new mini-sized xp computers. Works with any analog 2-way
        and can send whatever you need to without a sound card.
        Message length is not a problem
         
        73
        Jeff
        WB4WXD
      • Gary Wilson
        I hope someone involved with the leadership of K2BSA at the 2010 BSA National Jamboree is reading this forum. It s great that we ve got such an enthusiastic
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 18, 2009
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          I hope someone involved with the leadership of K2BSA at the 2010 BSA
          National Jamboree is reading this forum.

          It's great that we've got such an enthusiastic group of Scouter Hams
          planning to be at 2010 Jamboree. But we need a concerted effort
          RIGHT NOW to make sure that Scouts and their parents across the
          country are aware of how to use the National Traffic System to send
          NTS messages to Scouts attending the Jamboree.

          As you know, cell phones, etc are discouraged at the Jamboree and NTS
          radiograms are one of the few ways to get messages to individual
          Scouts. These messages are sent via NTS to K2BSA which then runs a
          nightly two meter net to get them to the appropriate subcamp and
          troop. I've had good experience in making sure that the parents of
          scouts coming from my area know how to reach me so as to be able to
          send such an NTS message to their sons.

          We're now approaching the 18 month point before the Jamboree. The
          contingent troops across the nation are just getting organized with
          parent and Scout organizational meetings, etc. It is at this time
          that much of the literature describing how things are going to work
          at the jamboree are given to parents.

          So it would be good to make sure that the literature now being send
          to the councils' contingent leaders from BSA National includes how
          parents can contact a local ham in each council across the nation to
          originate such NTS messages.

          An ideal way would be for someone to set up an e-mail forwarding
          service similar to arrl.net. Thus a parent could send a message in
          an e-mail to their son at something like "Troop411@..." . We
          could later get NTS folks to sign up to have the e-mails for troops
          originating from their area auto forwarded to themselves for
          transmission via NTS. Is their anyone on this list who someone who
          could set something like that up?

          While K2BSA is a great thing at the Jambo, it competes with lots of
          other activities there for the Scouts attention. Setting up such an
          e-mail to NTS forwarding service would greatly increase Amateur
          Radio's exposure to attending Scouts and their parents back at home.

          Thoughts on this concept are appreciated.

          73

          Gary Wilson, K2GW
          Unit Commissioner
          Central New Jersey Council
        • Gary Wilson
          ... Yahoo filtered out the mock e-mail adress I used as an example for an e- mail alias forwarder! It was Troop411 at jambo dot net 73 Gary, K2GW
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 18, 2009
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            --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Wilson" <k2gw@...> wrote:

            Yahoo filtered out the mock e-mail adress I used as an example for an e-
            mail alias forwarder!

            It was " Troop411 at jambo dot net "

            73

            Gary, K2GW
          • Robert Bruninga
            ... The APRS system is already set up to be able to send and receive Text Message Emails in real time to/from any APRS radio keypad to/from anywhere in the
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 18, 2009
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              > An ideal way would be for someone to set
              > up an e-mail forwarding service similar
              > to arrl.net. Thus a parent could send a
              > message in an e-mail to their son at something
              > like "Troop411@..." .

              The APRS system is already set up to be able to send and receive
              Text Message Emails in real time to/from any APRS radio keypad
              to/from anywhere in the world directly to the recepient.

              That is, any D7, D700, D710, or VX8R APRS radio can send
              text-message emails directly from the keypad on 144.39 MHz
              anywhere on the North American Continent (though we might need
              to make sure the APRS network around FT.AP Hill is working
              well). Of course anyone running -any- radio on an APRS client
              on a PC could do the same from the K2BSA or other subunit at
              Jamboree, but it needs a PC etc...

              To make an APRS message into an EMAIL, the only thing you have
              to do is:
              1) Enter EMAIL as the callsign instead of an amateur call for
              the recepient
              2) Make the first word of the message be the email address.
              3) Hit SEND and it will be delivered.
              4) If successful you may get an ACK from the EMAIL system within
              seconds.

              This makes it easy for kids to use Amateur Radio to send home
              news and reports not only from the Amateur Radio tent, but from
              ANY ROVING amateur radio operator carrying an APRS HT. (A great
              way to reach out). Scouts would feel completely comfortable
              with this kind of TEXT-MESSAGING Email on Amateur radio, since
              they all text message all the time.

              There is even an external keyboard interface for the D700 radio
              that will allow typing in the message on a QWERTY keyboard
              directy into the Mic jack of the D700. But again, that would
              only be needed for old-fuds. The kids know perfectly well how
              to text message on a DTMF keypad.

              Not only does the text message get delivered to the recepient as
              normal email instantly, it also can be seen on any of the APRS
              web pages by anyone. For example. Lets see what N4BSA messages
              exist now... Just do http://map.findu.com/n4bsa*

              You will notice a list of all APRS stations operating under that
              call if he has more than one. Click the MESSAGES link. Click
              his call to see him on an APRS map. For N4BSA, select his -9
              mobile) where you see he has sent and received serveral
              messages. You will see his messages when you click on the link.


              To SEND A REPLY EMAIL back to the radio from the web by just
              click on the REPLY link. Enter your callsign, enter the
              message, and hit SEND. Done.

              Notice, that to send a message from the internet FINDU web page
              above, you have to have an amateur radio callsign to take
              responsibility for the email. But an amateur radio operator
              for each troop back home, could accept incoming emails and then
              send them under his call.

              This is all part of the Universal Amateur Radio Text Messaging
              Initiative www.aprs.org/aprs-messaging.html

              Hope that helps.

              Bob, Wb4APR

              Bob, WB4APR
            • Stephen M. Shearer
              The (hopefully) attached K2BSA and you... flier was used at the 2005 Jamboree for K2BSA. My boys had a copy that was passed out to our council troops. I
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 18, 2009
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                The (hopefully) attached "K2BSA and you..." flier was used at the 2005
                Jamboree for K2BSA. My boys had a copy that was passed out to our council
                troops. I don't remember where I got a copy before the Jamboree, but I did.
                They were also given out at K2BSA, at the Jamboree. K2BSA has always used
                the Jamboree to promote ham radio. I went to the 1964 (or was it 1965)
                Jamboree and made an effort to visit the station. I wasn't a ham, yet - but
                I still remember it, small as it was then.

                73, Steve WB3LGC
                -----Original Message-----
                From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Gary Wilson
                Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:03 AM
                To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [ScoutRadio] Using the 2010 Jamboree to Promote Amateur Radio

                I hope someone involved with the leadership of K2BSA at the 2010 BSA
                National Jamboree is reading this forum.

                It's great that we've got such an enthusiastic group of Scouter Hams
                planning to be at 2010 Jamboree. But we need a concerted effort
                RIGHT NOW to make sure that Scouts and their parents across the
                country are aware of how to use the National Traffic System to send
                NTS messages to Scouts attending the Jamboree.

                As you know, cell phones, etc are discouraged at the Jamboree and NTS
                radiograms are one of the few ways to get messages to individual
                Scouts. These messages are sent via NTS to K2BSA which then runs a
                nightly two meter net to get them to the appropriate subcamp and
                troop. I've had good experience in making sure that the parents of
                scouts coming from my area know how to reach me so as to be able to
                send such an NTS message to their sons.

                We're now approaching the 18 month point before the Jamboree. The
                contingent troops across the nation are just getting organized with
                parent and Scout organizational meetings, etc. It is at this time
                that much of the literature describing how things are going to work
                at the jamboree are given to parents.

                So it would be good to make sure that the literature now being send
                to the councils' contingent leaders from BSA National includes how
                parents can contact a local ham in each council across the nation to
                originate such NTS messages.

                An ideal way would be for someone to set up an e-mail forwarding
                service similar to arrl.net. Thus a parent could send a message in
                an e-mail to their son at something like "Troop411@..." . We
                could later get NTS folks to sign up to have the e-mails for troops
                originating from their area auto forwarded to themselves for
                transmission via NTS. Is their anyone on this list who someone who
                could set something like that up?

                While K2BSA is a great thing at the Jambo, it competes with lots of
                other activities there for the Scouts attention. Setting up such an
                e-mail to NTS forwarding service would greatly increase Amateur
                Radio's exposure to attending Scouts and their parents back at home.

                Thoughts on this concept are appreciated.

                73

                Gary Wilson, K2GW
                Unit Commissioner
                Central New Jersey Council




                ------------------------------------

                Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
                to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links



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                08:57:00
              • Ray Brown
                ... From: Gary Wilson ... To those of us that download the messages into Outlook Express, it seemed to work okay. Yahoo is a strange critter.
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 18, 2009
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Gary Wilson" <k2gw@...>

                  > --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Wilson" <k2gw@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Yahoo filtered out the mock e-mail adress I used as an example for an e-
                  > mail alias forwarder!
                  >
                  > It was " Troop411 at jambo dot net "

                  To those of us that download the messages into Outlook Express, it seemed
                  to work okay. Yahoo is a strange critter. One thing it did is that it cut off
                  your Email address, as shown above.

                  Anyway, short of setting up your own amateur radio satellite station,
                  I don't know if there's an easy answer to your question.

                  I'll admit that I'm not going, but a friend of mine here from Joplin,
                  Ron Metz, KB0CMD, is signed up to represent our District and
                  Council at K2BSA. I don't think he's on _here_, but I know he's
                  on the 2010 list. So I'll try to get him here to chime in. :-)


                  Ray, KB0STN
                • Gary Wilson
                  ... Bob: APRS messaging is great. We use it for messages between EOC s here in NJ. But the specific technology used to send the messages isn t the point.
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 20, 2009
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                    --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@...>
                    wrote:

                    >
                    > The APRS system is already set up to be able to send and receive
                    > Text Message Emails in real time to/from any APRS radio keypad
                    > to/from anywhere in the world directly to the recepient.

                    Bob:

                    APRS messaging is great. We use it for messages between EOC's here
                    in NJ.

                    But the specific technology used to send the messages isn't the
                    point. It's providing a simple e-mail capability for NON-HAM
                    PARENTS who don't know APRS from CW from NTS from DXCC to originate
                    the messages in the first place. We need to have a simple method for
                    them to get the messages to a local ham in their area to review their
                    appropriateness and to get them on their way.

                    I used e-mail from the parents in our district to myself to start
                    things here locally in 2005. I was suggesting something similar
                    nationwide.

                    But I have now been told that message handling between K2BSA to the
                    individual sub-camps for the final mile has been problemeatic in the
                    past. Perhaps the K2BSA staff will make that a priority to solve
                    right now. Whether it's APRS, voice nets or something as basic as
                    sending a K2BSA staff member on the bus to make a daily drop of the
                    written messages at each of the sub-camps post offices, it really
                    doesn't matter.

                    But unless that is solved quickly, the whole idea of using this a s
                    way of making every Scout and their parents aware of Aateur Radio is
                    irrelevant.

                    73

                    Gary, K2GW
                  • Gary Wilson
                    ... council ... I did. ... The flyer wasn t attached. Look in the files here. Is that the same one? How would a parent know whom to contact? 73 Gary, K2GW
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 20, 2009
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                      --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen M. Shearer" <wb3lgc@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > The (hopefully) attached "K2BSA and you..." flier was used at the 2005
                      > Jamboree for K2BSA. My boys had a copy that was passed out to our
                      council
                      > troops. I don't remember where I got a copy before the Jamboree, but
                      I did.
                      > They were also given out at K2BSA, at the Jamboree.

                      The flyer wasn't attached. Look in the files here. Is that the same
                      one? How would a parent know whom to contact?

                      73

                      Gary, K2GW
                    • Bob Bruninga
                      ... If that is the goal, then I think success has a huge challenge. This concept appears to me to be backwards to normal Amateur Radio message
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
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                        If I could offer some comments regarding Amateur Radio Email at Jamboree:

                        > But the specific technology used to send
                        > the messages isn't the point. It's
                        > providing a simple e-mail capability
                        > for NON-HAM PARENTS who don't know APRS
                        > from CW from NTS from DXCC to originate
                        > the messages in the first place.

                        If that is the goal, then I think success has a huge challenge.

                        This concept appears to me to be backwards to normal Amateur Radio message experience/preparedness. Amateur radio historically is set up to take messages -from- the scene and deliver them -out- to those back home, not inbound.

                        > But I have now been told that message
                        > handling between K2BSA to the individual
                        > sub-camps for the final mile has been
                        > problemeatic in the past.

                        Exactly, a flood of "junk" mail from parents to kids who are too busy or probably not interested would be a significant and I fear disappointing challenge. Better to focus on the normal amateur radio process of messages -out- of the area.

                        > But unless that is solved quickly, the
                        > whole idea of using this as way of making
                        > every Scout and their parents aware of
                        > Amateur Radio is irrelevant.

                        I agree. So I think the way to do this is to not try to do the hardest possible email process (inbound), but to reverse it and do the easiest one (outbound), and the one that exists now without any preparation required. Getting messages -out- of a concentrated situation back to home is the process that amateur radio has always excelled in, because the focus and effort is -at- the end where the dedicated hams are, not spread out all over the country.

                        The following two lists compare the issues involved with messaging -from- and -to- Jamboree:

                        OUTBOUND using APRS:

                        1) The end-to-end process is automatic and exists
                        2) Any APRS mobile or HT can send the message
                        3) Email delivery to parents is automatic
                        4) Requires No support outside of Jamboree
                        5) Uses Text Messaging which is very popular with kids
                        6) Shows the value of Amateur Radio "at the scene"
                        7) Amateur operator is at the point of origination
                        8) Needs nothing but individuals at Jamboree to do it
                        9) Parents get "value" of hearing from kid
                        10) No intrusion into the Jamboree experience from outside

                        In other words its there, it exists, it works.

                        Now looking at the converse points for the inbound email process, and it is easy to see how the difficulties are nearly insurmountable:

                        INBOUND EMAIL:

                        1) The process does not yet exist
                        2) There is no method of end-delivery
                        3) Email delivery to kids is manual
                        4) Requires significant support outside of Jamboree
                        5) Uses ancient amateur traffic handling methods
                        6) Shows the difficulty of messaging -into- a scene
                        7) Huge problem of Amateur not at the point of origination
                        8) Needs huge undertaking to implement
                        9) Kids ascribe less "value" of hearing from parents
                        10) Intrudes into the Jamboree experience from outside

                        So the path of least resistance and therefore the highest probabilty of success in my opinion is to concentrate on the OUTBOUND direction which Amateur Radio has always provided at the "scene".

                        Please ignore my background with APRS. I am not trying to push it. I am just speaking from my experience in Ham radio of generally looking for ways to use what exists to do something useful at special events, and avoiding methods that take a lot of structure and coordination and preparation for success.

                        Thanks
                        Bob, Wb4APR
                      • Mark Phillips
                        OK, It s about time I put my boots on and jumped in with both feet here. I totally disagree that APRS is in any way suitable for email in either direction. I m
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
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                          OK, It's about time I put my boots on and jumped in with both feet here.

                          I totally disagree that APRS is in any way suitable for email in either
                          direction. I'm not trying to put Bob's system down (I've been running it
                          in my car for the past 10 years) but it does seem to me to be a square
                          peg in a round hole solution.

                          Why can you not build a simple AX25/TCPIP network using something like
                          JNOS on old PC's? Equip each sub camp with a suitable terminal and let
                          the mail flow. You could then forward the emails to the Internet at the
                          nearest gateway (there's bound to be Internet on the site somewhere).
                          Using something like JNOS means that you can use all your familiar
                          Windows tools to create/view messages. As there would be no urgency in
                          the emails one wouldn't have to worry about the time it takes to spool
                          emails over the network to the central SMTP server.

                          The advantage of this is that you can use most any crap you can find and
                          are not required to use particular radio equipment or indeed any
                          particular frequency.

                          In NYC during 9/11 our JNOS system worked flawlessly across 9 different
                          sites with email on both directions. I would agree with Bob however in
                          that you should only be concerned with outbound mail. The backend
                          networking required to deliver messages to remote terminals would be
                          very difficult.

                          What email address would Billy's mother send her mail to? How would
                          Billy even know he has email? How then would Billy get access to his
                          mothers email?

                          The only practical way this could be done would be for each Jamboree
                          participant to register with some central system thus creating their
                          account. They would then have to check that account periodicly for mail.

                          At least with outbound mail Billy's mother knows he's having a good
                          time.

                          <GRIN> Not that I've done any of this before or anything </GRIN>

                          Mark





                          On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 08:21 -0500, Bob Bruninga wrote:
                          > If I could offer some comments regarding Amateur Radio Email at Jamboree:
                          >
                          > > But the specific technology used to send
                          > > the messages isn't the point. It's
                          > > providing a simple e-mail capability
                          > > for NON-HAM PARENTS who don't know APRS
                          > > from CW from NTS from DXCC to originate
                          > > the messages in the first place.
                          >
                          > If that is the goal, then I think success has a huge challenge.
                          >
                          > This concept appears to me to be backwards to normal Amateur Radio message experience/preparedness. Amateur radio historically is set up to take messages -from- the scene and deliver them -out- to those back home, not inbound.
                          >
                          > > But I have now been told that message
                          > > handling between K2BSA to the individual
                          > > sub-camps for the final mile has been
                          > > problemeatic in the past.
                          >
                          > Exactly, a flood of "junk" mail from parents to kids who are too busy or probably not interested would be a significant and I fear disappointing challenge. Better to focus on the normal amateur radio process of messages -out- of the area.
                          >
                          > > But unless that is solved quickly, the
                          > > whole idea of using this as way of making
                          > > every Scout and their parents aware of
                          > > Amateur Radio is irrelevant.
                          >
                          > I agree. So I think the way to do this is to not try to do the hardest possible email process (inbound), but to reverse it and do the easiest one (outbound), and the one that exists now without any preparation required. Getting messages -out- of a concentrated situation back to home is the process that amateur radio has always excelled in, because the focus and effort is -at- the end where the dedicated hams are, not spread out all over the country.
                          >
                          > The following two lists compare the issues involved with messaging -from- and -to- Jamboree:
                          >
                          > OUTBOUND using APRS:
                          >
                          > 1) The end-to-end process is automatic and exists
                          > 2) Any APRS mobile or HT can send the message
                          > 3) Email delivery to parents is automatic
                          > 4) Requires No support outside of Jamboree
                          > 5) Uses Text Messaging which is very popular with kids
                          > 6) Shows the value of Amateur Radio "at the scene"
                          > 7) Amateur operator is at the point of origination
                          > 8) Needs nothing but individuals at Jamboree to do it
                          > 9) Parents get "value" of hearing from kid
                          > 10) No intrusion into the Jamboree experience from outside
                          >
                          > In other words its there, it exists, it works.
                          >
                          > Now looking at the converse points for the inbound email process, and it is easy to see how the difficulties are nearly insurmountable:
                          >
                          > INBOUND EMAIL:
                          >
                          > 1) The process does not yet exist
                          > 2) There is no method of end-delivery
                          > 3) Email delivery to kids is manual
                          > 4) Requires significant support outside of Jamboree
                          > 5) Uses ancient amateur traffic handling methods
                          > 6) Shows the difficulty of messaging -into- a scene
                          > 7) Huge problem of Amateur not at the point of origination
                          > 8) Needs huge undertaking to implement
                          > 9) Kids ascribe less "value" of hearing from parents
                          > 10) Intrudes into the Jamboree experience from outside
                          >
                          > So the path of least resistance and therefore the highest probabilty of success in my opinion is to concentrate on the OUTBOUND direction which Amateur Radio has always provided at the "scene".
                          >
                          > Please ignore my background with APRS. I am not trying to push it. I am just speaking from my experience in Ham radio of generally looking for ways to use what exists to do something useful at special events, and avoiding methods that take a lot of structure and coordination and preparation for success.
                          >
                          > Thanks
                          > Bob, Wb4APR
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                          >
                          > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                          >
                          > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                          > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                          >
                          > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                          > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                          >
                          > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          --



                          Mark Phillips, G7LTT/NI2O
                          Randolph, NJ
                        • Bob Bruninga
                          Interesting. I am visiting my inlaws in Fredricksburg VA (only 5 miles form FOrt AP hill and just mentioned the Jamboree (and ham radio) and they said, ...
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
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                            Interesting. I am visiting my inlaws in Fredricksburg VA (only 5 miles form FOrt AP hill and just mentioned the Jamboree (and ham radio) and they said, ... huh? THe jamboree has been moved and is not at AP hill this time? Its been in all the local papers? THey said it was to be down south somewhere maybe tenessee?

                            Now again, this could all be totally uninformed, since they are not scouts, or radio, just locals in the FT AP Hill neighborhood who just concindentely remembering hearing something like that. Is this an illinformed rumor?

                            Bob, WB4APR


                            ---- Original message ----
                            >Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:12:29 -0500
                            >From: Mark Phillips <g7ltt@...>
                            >Subject: Re: [ScoutRadio] Re: Amateur Radio Email at the Jamboree
                            >To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >OK, It's about time I put my boots on and jumped in with both feet here.
                            >
                            >I totally disagree that APRS is in any way suitable for email in either
                            >direction. I'm not trying to put Bob's system down (I've been running it
                            >in my car for the past 10 years) but it does seem to me to be a square
                            >peg in a round hole solution.
                            >
                            >Why can you not build a simple AX25/TCPIP network using something like
                            >JNOS on old PC's? Equip each sub camp with a suitable terminal and let
                            >the mail flow. You could then forward the emails to the Internet at the
                            >nearest gateway (there's bound to be Internet on the site somewhere).
                            >Using something like JNOS means that you can use all your familiar
                            >Windows tools to create/view messages. As there would be no urgency in
                            >the emails one wouldn't have to worry about the time it takes to spool
                            >emails over the network to the central SMTP server.
                            >
                            >The advantage of this is that you can use most any crap you can find and
                            >are not required to use particular radio equipment or indeed any
                            >particular frequency.
                            >
                            >In NYC during 9/11 our JNOS system worked flawlessly across 9 different
                            >sites with email on both directions. I would agree with Bob however in
                            >that you should only be concerned with outbound mail. The backend
                            >networking required to deliver messages to remote terminals would be
                            >very difficult.
                            >
                            >What email address would Billy's mother send her mail to? How would
                            >Billy even know he has email? How then would Billy get access to his
                            >mothers email?
                            >
                            >The only practical way this could be done would be for each Jamboree
                            >participant to register with some central system thus creating their
                            >account. They would then have to check that account periodicly for mail.
                            >
                            >At least with outbound mail Billy's mother knows he's having a good
                            >time.
                            >
                            ><GRIN> Not that I've done any of this before or anything </GRIN>
                            >
                            >Mark
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 08:21 -0500, Bob Bruninga wrote:
                            >> If I could offer some comments regarding Amateur Radio Email at Jamboree:
                            >>
                            >> > But the specific technology used to send
                            >> > the messages isn't the point. It's
                            >> > providing a simple e-mail capability
                            >> > for NON-HAM PARENTS who don't know APRS
                            >> > from CW from NTS from DXCC to originate
                            >> > the messages in the first place.
                            >>
                            >> If that is the goal, then I think success has a huge challenge.
                            >>
                            >> This concept appears to me to be backwards to normal Amateur Radio message experience/preparedness. Amateur radio historically is set up to take messages -from- the scene and deliver them -out- to those back home, not inbound.
                            >>
                            >> > But I have now been told that message
                            >> > handling between K2BSA to the individual
                            >> > sub-camps for the final mile has been
                            >> > problemeatic in the past.
                            >>
                            >> Exactly, a flood of "junk" mail from parents to kids who are too busy or probably not interested would be a significant and I fear disappointing challenge. Better to focus on the normal amateur radio process of messages -out- of the area.
                            >>
                            >> > But unless that is solved quickly, the
                            >> > whole idea of using this as way of making
                            >> > every Scout and their parents aware of
                            >> > Amateur Radio is irrelevant.
                            >>
                            >> I agree. So I think the way to do this is to not try to do the hardest possible email process (inbound), but to reverse it and do the easiest one (outbound), and the one that exists now without any preparation required. Getting messages -out- of a concentrated situation back to home is the process that amateur radio has always excelled in, because the focus and effort is -at- the end where the dedicated hams are, not spread out all over the country.
                            >>
                            >> The following two lists compare the issues involved with messaging -from- and -to- Jamboree:
                            >>
                            >> OUTBOUND using APRS:
                            >>
                            >> 1) The end-to-end process is automatic and exists
                            >> 2) Any APRS mobile or HT can send the message
                            >> 3) Email delivery to parents is automatic
                            >> 4) Requires No support outside of Jamboree
                            >> 5) Uses Text Messaging which is very popular with kids
                            >> 6) Shows the value of Amateur Radio "at the scene"
                            >> 7) Amateur operator is at the point of origination
                            >> 8) Needs nothing but individuals at Jamboree to do it
                            >> 9) Parents get "value" of hearing from kid
                            >> 10) No intrusion into the Jamboree experience from outside
                            >>
                            >> In other words its there, it exists, it works.
                            >>
                            >> Now looking at the converse points for the inbound email process, and it is easy to see how the difficulties are nearly insurmountable:
                            >>
                            >> INBOUND EMAIL:
                            >>
                            >> 1) The process does not yet exist
                            >> 2) There is no method of end-delivery
                            >> 3) Email delivery to kids is manual
                            >> 4) Requires significant support outside of Jamboree
                            >> 5) Uses ancient amateur traffic handling methods
                            >> 6) Shows the difficulty of messaging -into- a scene
                            >> 7) Huge problem of Amateur not at the point of origination
                            >> 8) Needs huge undertaking to implement
                            >> 9) Kids ascribe less "value" of hearing from parents
                            >> 10) Intrudes into the Jamboree experience from outside
                            >>
                            >> So the path of least resistance and therefore the highest probabilty of success in my opinion is to concentrate on the OUTBOUND direction which Amateur Radio has always provided at the "scene".
                            >>
                            >> Please ignore my background with APRS. I am not trying to push it. I am just speaking from my experience in Ham radio of generally looking for ways to use what exists to do something useful at special events, and avoiding methods that take a lot of structure and coordination and preparation for success.
                            >>
                            >> Thanks
                            >> Bob, Wb4APR
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ------------------------------------
                            >>
                            >> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                            >>
                            >> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                            >>
                            >> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                            >> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                            >>
                            >> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                            >> http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                            >>
                            >> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >--
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Mark Phillips, G7LTT/NI2O
                            >Randolph, NJ
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >------------------------------------
                            >
                            >Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                            >
                            >Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                            >
                            >Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                            >http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                            >
                            >Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                            >http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                            >
                            >SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Bob Davidson
                            Hi Bob, The only thing I ve seen is on the NCAC web site and it notes that the 2010 Jamboree will take place at A.P. Hill, but afterwards they will be held at
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Bob,
                                The only thing I've seen is on the NCAC web site and it notes that the
                              2010 Jamboree will take place at A.P. Hill, but afterwards they will be
                              held at Goshen Scout Reservation.
                               
                              Vr
                              Bob
                              KB3KOW

                              On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...> wrote:

                              Interesting. I am visiting my inlaws in Fredricksburg VA (only 5 miles form FOrt AP hill and just mentioned the Jamboree (and ham radio) and they said, ... huh? THe jamboree has been moved and is not at AP hill this time? Its been in all the local papers? THey said it was to be down south somewhere maybe tenessee?

                              Now again, this could all be totally uninformed, since they are not scouts, or radio, just locals in the FT AP Hill neighborhood who just concindentely remembering hearing something like that. Is this an illinformed rumor?

                              Bob, WB4APR



                              ---- Original message ----
                              >Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:12:29 -0500
                              >From: Mark Phillips <g7ltt@...>
                              >Subject: Re: [ScoutRadio] Re: Amateur Radio Email at the Jamboree
                              >To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >OK, It's about time I put my boots on and jumped in with both feet here.
                              >
                              >I totally disagree that APRS is in any way suitable for email in either
                              >direction. I'm not trying to put Bob's system down (I've been running it
                              >in my car for the past 10 years) but it does seem to me to be a square
                              >peg in a round hole solution.
                              >
                              >Why can you not build a simple AX25/TCPIP network using something like
                              >JNOS on old PC's? Equip each sub camp with a suitable terminal and let
                              >the mail flow. You could then forward the emails to the Internet at the
                              >nearest gateway (there's bound to be Internet on the site somewhere).
                              >Using something like JNOS means that you can use all your familiar
                              >Windows tools to create/view messages. As there would be no urgency in
                              >the emails one wouldn't have to worry about the time it takes to spool
                              >emails over the network to the central SMTP server.
                              >
                              >The advantage of this is that you can use most any crap you can find and
                              >are not required to use particular radio equipment or indeed any
                              >particular frequency.
                              >
                              >In NYC during 9/11 our JNOS system worked flawlessly across 9 different
                              >sites with email on both directions. I would agree with Bob however in
                              >that you should only be concerned with outbound mail. The backend
                              >networking required to deliver messages to remote terminals would be
                              >very difficult.
                              >
                              >What email address would Billy's mother send her mail to? How would
                              >Billy even know he has email? How then would Billy get access to his
                              >mothers email?
                              >
                              >The only practical way this could be done would be for each Jamboree
                              >participant to register with some central system thus creating their
                              >account. They would then have to check that account periodicly for mail.
                              >
                              >At least with outbound mail Billy's mother knows he's having a good
                              >time.
                              >
                              ><GRIN> Not that I've done any of this before or anything </GRIN>
                              >
                              >Mark
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 08:21 -0500, Bob Bruninga wrote:
                              >> If I could offer some comments regarding Amateur Radio Email at Jamboree:
                              >>
                              >> > But the specific technology used to send
                              >> > the messages isn't the point. It's
                              >> > providing a simple e-mail capability
                              >> > for NON-HAM PARENTS who don't know APRS
                              >> > from CW from NTS from DXCC to originate
                              >> > the messages in the first place.
                              >>
                              >> If that is the goal, then I think success has a huge challenge.
                              >>
                              >> This concept appears to me to be backwards to normal Amateur Radio message experience/preparedness. Amateur radio historically is set up to take messages -from- the scene and deliver them -out- to those back home, not inbound.
                              >>
                              >> > But I have now been told that message
                              >> > handling between K2BSA to the individual
                              >> > sub-camps for the final mile has been
                              >> > problemeatic in the past.
                              >>
                              >> Exactly, a flood of "junk" mail from parents to kids who are too busy or probably not interested would be a significant and I fear disappointing challenge. Better to focus on the normal amateur radio process of messages -out- of the area.
                              >>
                              >> > But unless that is solved quickly, the
                              >> > whole idea of using this as way of making
                              >> > every Scout and their parents aware of
                              >> > Amateur Radio is irrelevant.
                              >>
                              >> I agree. So I think the way to do this is to not try to do the hardest possible email process (inbound), but to reverse it and do the easiest one (outbound), and the one that exists now without any preparation required. Getting messages -out- of a concentrated situation back to home is the process that amateur radio has always excelled in, because the focus and effort is -at- the end where the dedicated hams are, not spread out all over the country.
                              >>
                              >> The following two lists compare the issues involved with messaging -from- and -to- Jamboree:
                              >>
                              >> OUTBOUND using APRS:
                              >>
                              >> 1) The end-to-end process is automatic and exists
                              >> 2) Any APRS mobile or HT can send the message
                              >> 3) Email delivery to parents is automatic
                              >> 4) Requires No support outside of Jamboree
                              >> 5) Uses Text Messaging which is very popular with kids
                              >> 6) Shows the value of Amateur Radio "at the scene"
                              >> 7) Amateur operator is at the point of origination
                              >> 8) Needs nothing but individuals at Jamboree to do it
                              >> 9) Parents get "value" of hearing from kid
                              >> 10) No intrusion into the Jamboree experience from outside
                              >>
                              >> In other words its there, it exists, it works.
                              >>
                              >> Now looking at the converse points for the inbound email process, and it is easy to see how the difficulties are nearly insurmountable:
                              >>
                              >> INBOUND EMAIL:
                              >>
                              >> 1) The process does not yet exist
                              >> 2) There is no method of end-delivery
                              >> 3) Email delivery to kids is manual
                              >> 4) Requires significant support outside of Jamboree
                              >> 5) Uses ancient amateur traffic handling methods
                              >> 6) Shows the difficulty of messaging -into- a scene
                              >> 7) Huge problem of Amateur not at the point of origination
                              >> 8) Needs huge undertaking to implement
                              >> 9) Kids ascribe less "value" of hearing from parents
                              >> 10) Intrudes into the Jamboree experience from outside
                              >>
                              >> So the path of least resistance and therefore the highest probabilty of success in my opinion is to concentrate on the OUTBOUND direction which Amateur Radio has always provided at the "scene".
                              >>
                              >> Please ignore my background with APRS. I am not trying to push it. I am just speaking from my experience in Ham radio of generally looking for ways to use what exists to do something useful at special events, and avoiding methods that take a lot of structure and coordination and preparation for success.
                              >>
                              >> Thanks
                              >> Bob, Wb4APR
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> ------------------------------------
                              >>
                              >> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                              >>
                              >> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                              >>
                              >> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                              >> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                              >>
                              >> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                              >> http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                              >>
                              >> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >--
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Mark Phillips, G7LTT/NI2O
                              >Randolph, NJ
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >------------------------------------
                              >
                              >Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                              >
                              >Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                              >
                              >Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                              >http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                              >
                              >Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                              >http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                              >
                              >SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >


                            • n5gui
                              In his recent post Bob Bruninga, Wb4APR, makes a well considered case that outgoing traffic (email from Scouts to home) would be much easier to impliment and
                              Message 14 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In his recent post Bob Bruninga, Wb4APR, makes a well considered
                                case that outgoing traffic (email from Scouts to home) would be much
                                easier to impliment and to maintain. I cannot fault his logic or the
                                validity of his arguments.

                                That said, I would like to offer a counter thought: Just because
                                incoming traffic would be a difficult task and would certainly
                                require significant resources, that does not mean that it is not
                                worth doing.

                                Indeed, are we not, as leaders within the Scouting organization and
                                those who strive for the success of Scouting, trying to teach
                                integrity and character? Speaking for myself, I would rather be an
                                example of "do what is right and worthwhile, even if it is difficult
                                or unpopular" rather than "do only what is easy". I am not much of
                                an example and I seldom think of inspiring word. However, this
                                reminds me of a speech given at Rice University on September 12,
                                1962.

                                "...We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other
                                things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard,
                                because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our
                                energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are
                                willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which
                                we intend to win, and the others, too... "

                                If you do not recognize those as the word of President Kennedy, then
                                I would guess that you are far younger than I. I have had a long
                                time to consider the meaning. I admit that at first I thought it
                                was odd, perhaps even wrong. I would rather think that we should
                                choose to do what is important. To do what is right whether or not
                                is is hard. There does not seem to be a logic in doing something
                                because it is hard to do. Yet, he said it... And later this year
                                the United States will celebrate the 40th anniversary of the
                                accomplishment of the goal he set.

                                Does this in some way relate to the suggestion to establish a system
                                of incomming email to the Jamboree? I really don't know. I would
                                have suggested that the people involved consider the idea on its
                                merits, taking into account the effort and resources needed against
                                the benefits. From that decide if it is worth doing. Then do it,
                                or not as the case may be.

                                Under that logic, the words of Wb4APR would suggest that it is hard
                                to do, therefore not worth doing. Maybe, it should be considered
                                worth doing, to set an example that we choose to do it, not because
                                it is easy, but because it is a goal that will serve to organize and
                                measure the best of our energies and skills.



                                James
                                n5gui
                              • Norm Huber
                                ... 2010 will be the last year at Ft. AP Hill. The Jamboree would have been this year except for the fact that 2010 is the 100th anniversary pf Scouting in the
                                Message 15 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Bob Bruninga wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Interesting. I am visiting my inlaws in Fredricksburg VA (only 5 miles
                                  > form FOrt AP hill and just mentioned the Jamboree (and ham radio) and
                                  > they said, ... huh? THe jamboree has been moved and is not at AP hill
                                  > this time? Its been in all the local papers? THey said it was to be down
                                  > south somewhere maybe tenessee?
                                  >
                                  > Now again, this could all be totally uninformed, since they are not
                                  > scouts, or radio, just locals in the FT AP Hill neighborhood who just
                                  > concindentely remembering hearing something like that. Is this an
                                  > illinformed rumor?
                                  >
                                  > Bob, WB4APR
                                  2010 will be the last year at Ft. AP Hill. The Jamboree would have been
                                  this year except for the fact that 2010 is the 100th anniversary pf
                                  Scouting in the US. The next Jamboree will be moving but I have not
                                  heard exactly where. Some have suggested a more central location so
                                  western Tn would probably be a decent choice.
                                  73
                                  --
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                  ----- Norman Huber - N9ZKS - Central Illinois
                                  ----- Unit Commissioner / Roundtable Staff / Assistant Scoutmaster
                                • Bob Bruninga
                                  ... No problem at all. This is a good discussion, and I hope we can discuss all these issues so that we actually do get something working and dont just waste
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    > I totally disagree that APRS is in any way
                                    > suitable for email in either direction.
                                    > I'm not trying to put Bob's system down
                                    > (I've been running it in my car for 10 years)
                                    > but it does seem to me to be a square
                                    > peg in a round hole solution.

                                    No problem at all. This is a good discussion, and I hope we can discuss all these issues so that we actually do get something working and dont just waste the year talking about what could be done. I absolutley get excited about doing things new and bringing new technology to amateur radio.

                                    But I also now have 45 years experience at trying to do just that, and find that it is possbile to do a demo of high tech, but that it takes a HUGE groundswell of enthusiastic support to get it done. On the other hand, a lot of these excellent ideas are exciting, but often just never quite get around to working...

                                    So my more sober aproach to amateur radio these days is to plan on the fallback that is guaranteed to work first, and then add other wiz bang on top. SO lets compare what I am suggesting APRS text messaging emails back home, to the AX.25 Network approach. OK, first the APRS implementaion:

                                    1) Infrastructure consists of 1 radio and 1 TNC as a digi at camp AP Hill.

                                    2) Any Ham Scouter with his APRS HT, hands it to an interested kid, and says "here is ham radio, text an email to your mom". When he hits SEND, and the radio beeps back "MY MESsAGE" showing it was delivered, the job is done. And you explain how it happened.

                                    Now lets contrast that with the TCPIP/AX.25 approach. I'll take each proposed step from the email and list all the things that are needed:

                                    > 1) Why can you not build....
                                    > 2) a simple AX25/TCPIP network
                                    > 3) using something like JNOS
                                    > 4) on old PC's?
                                    > 5) Equip each sub camp...
                                    > 6) with a suitable terminal...
                                    > 7) and let the mail flow....
                                    > 8) then forward the emails to the Internet
                                    > 9) at the nearest gateway
                                    > 10 (there's bound to be Internet on the site somewhere).
                                    > 11) you can use all your familiar Windows tools
                                    > 12) to create/view messages.
                                    > 13) one wouldn't have to worry about the time
                                    > it takes to spool emails over the network
                                    > 14) to the central SMTP server.
                                    > 15) you can use most any [stuff] you can find
                                    > 16) not required to use particular radio equipment
                                    > 17) or indeed any particular frequency.

                                    And what the kid sees is just another PC application sending email.... that oh by the way might be connected to a radio somewhere.. Though I would absolutely LOVE to see such an in-field applicaiton of amateur radio, if we cannot even field one conventional radio in each subcamp, I just don't see how a full network would get done?

                                    > ... I would rather be an example of "do what
                                    > is right and worthwhile, even if it is difficult
                                    > or unpopular" rather than "do only what is easy".
                                    > ... Under that logic, the words of Wb4APR would
                                    > suggest that it is hard to do, therefore not
                                    > worth doing. Maybe, it should be considered
                                    > worth doing, to set an example that we choose to
                                    > do it, not because it is easy, but because it is
                                    > a goal that will serve to organize and measure
                                    > the best of our energies and skills.

                                    True. I would so love to see that kind of motivation in AMateur Radio. And it does work many times in local areas where there is a motivated group who takes on the full responsiblity to just get it done...

                                    So nothing I am sayning should in any way detract from such noble plans. BUT...

                                    *** anyone that has an APRS radio should bring it ***
                                    *** and know how to send an email with its keypad ***

                                    That's all I am suggesting. You will be AMAZED at the number of people who are "active on APRS" and have no clue how to send a message from their HT or radio. I'm just trying to correct that small piece of the puzzle.

                                    Bob, WB4APR


                                    >
                                    >On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 08:21 -0500, Bob Bruninga wrote:
                                    >> If I could offer some comments regarding Amateur Radio Email at Jamboree:
                                    >>
                                    >> > But the specific technology used to send
                                    >> > the messages isn't the point. It's
                                    >> > providing a simple e-mail capability
                                    >> > for NON-HAM PARENTS who don't know APRS
                                    >> > from CW from NTS from DXCC to originate
                                    >> > the messages in the first place.
                                    >>
                                    >> If that is the goal, then I think success has a huge challenge.
                                    >>
                                    >> This concept appears to me to be backwards to normal Amateur Radio message experience/preparedness. Amateur radio historically is set up to take messages -from- the scene and deliver them -out- to those back home, not inbound.
                                    >>
                                    >> > But I have now been told that message
                                    >> > handling between K2BSA to the individual
                                    >> > sub-camps for the final mile has been
                                    >> > problemeatic in the past.
                                    >>
                                    >> Exactly, a flood of "junk" mail from parents to kids who are too busy or probably not interested would be a significant and I fear disappointing challenge. Better to focus on the normal amateur radio process of messages -out- of the area.
                                    >>
                                    >> > But unless that is solved quickly, the
                                    >> > whole idea of using this as way of making
                                    >> > every Scout and their parents aware of
                                    >> > Amateur Radio is irrelevant.
                                    >>
                                    >> I agree. So I think the way to do this is to not try to do the hardest possible email process (inbound), but to reverse it and do the easiest one (outbound), and the one that exists now without any preparation required. Getting messages -out- of a concentrated situation back to home is the process that amateur radio has always excelled in, because the focus and effort is -at- the end where the dedicated hams are, not spread out all over the country.
                                    >>
                                    >> The following two lists compare the issues involved with messaging -from- and -to- Jamboree:
                                    >>
                                    >> OUTBOUND using APRS:
                                    >>
                                    >> 1) The end-to-end process is automatic and exists
                                    >> 2) Any APRS mobile or HT can send the message
                                    >> 3) Email delivery to parents is automatic
                                    >> 4) Requires No support outside of Jamboree
                                    >> 5) Uses Text Messaging which is very popular with kids
                                    >> 6) Shows the value of Amateur Radio "at the scene"
                                    >> 7) Amateur operator is at the point of origination
                                    >> 8) Needs nothing but individuals at Jamboree to do it
                                    >> 9) Parents get "value" of hearing from kid
                                    >> 10) No intrusion into the Jamboree experience from outside
                                    >>
                                    >> In other words its there, it exists, it works.
                                    >>
                                    >> Now looking at the converse points for the inbound email process, and it is easy to see how the difficulties are nearly insurmountable:
                                    >>
                                    >> INBOUND EMAIL:
                                    >>
                                    >> 1) The process does not yet exist
                                    >> 2) There is no method of end-delivery
                                    >> 3) Email delivery to kids is manual
                                    >> 4) Requires significant support outside of Jamboree
                                    >> 5) Uses ancient amateur traffic handling methods
                                    >> 6) Shows the difficulty of messaging -into- a scene
                                    >> 7) Huge problem of Amateur not at the point of origination
                                    >> 8) Needs huge undertaking to implement
                                    >> 9) Kids ascribe less "value" of hearing from parents
                                    >> 10) Intrudes into the Jamboree experience from outside
                                    >>
                                    >> So the path of least resistance and therefore the highest probabilty of success in my opinion is to concentrate on the OUTBOUND direction which Amateur Radio has always provided at the "scene".
                                    >>
                                    >> Please ignore my background with APRS. I am not trying to push it. I am just speaking from my experience in Ham radio of generally looking for ways to use what exists to do something useful at special events, and avoiding methods that take a lot of structure and coordination and preparation for success.
                                    >>
                                    >> Thanks
                                    >> Bob, Wb4APR
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> ------------------------------------
                                    >>
                                    >> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                                    >>
                                    >> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                                    >>
                                    >> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                    >> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                                    >>
                                    >> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                    >> http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                                    >>
                                    >> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >--
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Mark Phillips, G7LTT/NI2O
                                    >Randolph, NJ
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                                    >
                                    >Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                                    >
                                    >Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                    >http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                                    >
                                    >Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                    >http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                                    >
                                    >SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Dale Lamm
                                    Never been to a Jamboree, but have camped way over a hundred weekends and attended week-long summer camps for nine years. Volume of incoming mail (to summer
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Feb 21, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Never been to a Jamboree, but have camped way over a hundred weekends and
                                      attended week-long summer camps for nine years. Volume of incoming mail (to
                                      summer camp) far outweighed outgoing mail. Mail call was always a high point
                                      of the day for Scouts who enjoyed an encouraging word from a parent. When my
                                      younger son joined camp staff and was away from home nine weeks a summer,
                                      sending mail to him became a pleasure and gave his mom and I comfort. I can
                                      still remember stuffing a few loose dollar bills in the envelopes and asking
                                      my son to treat someone who looked unhappy to a slushie, on me. Camp
                                      staffers don't get paid a whole lot, unless you value life experiences.

                                      Isn't there already a procedure in place to distribute snail mail from a
                                      Jambo central point to the outlying camps? If I were designing the most cost
                                      efficient way to get parental mail to Scouts, it would likely involve an
                                      email account at Jambo's post office and a fast printer. Print out the
                                      emails (with a proper physical camp address/unit number/whatever in the
                                      message body) and distribute them the same way as snail mail. How to get
                                      email into Jambo? If no route currently exists, short term rent a BGAN or
                                      EVDO terminal or enlist friendly hams to "gateway" the email to another
                                      friendly ham on the inside via "ham" RF. Parents could email from their
                                      homes to the outside gateway. There must be a dozen ways to get potentially
                                      thousands of messages into a temporary city of thousands of people. Shucks,
                                      burn them onto a DVD every morning and courier it in from a friendy ham
                                      nearby. The hard part is distributing to the individual units. That's why I
                                      wondered if there was a Jambo post office already set up to distribute paper
                                      mail, making use of what already exists.

                                      What's the ham payoff? Giving parents the ability to send an email to their
                                      Scout while he is away from home. Print the contents at the Jambo endpoint
                                      on paper forms with appropriate ham publicity on the header, just like an
                                      RCA Radiogram. Some of the printed messages might eventually be seen by
                                      parents when the Scout returns home.
                                    • Gary Wilson
                                      This is a good discussion. But we seem to jumping into the engineering details without first understanding the marketing concept first. So I m changing the
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Feb 22, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        This is a good discussion. But we seem to jumping into the
                                        engineering details without first understanding the marketing concept
                                        first. So I'm changing the topic name back to the concept we need to
                                        agree upon first.

                                        Having personally been to a number of national jamborees and looking
                                        at the reports of past K2BSA activity there, you can see the
                                        following are reasonable averages for the past twenty years. Of the
                                        typical 240,000 attendees, staff, day visitors and vendors passing
                                        through a BSA National Jamboree, only about 10,000 actually visit the
                                        K2BSA exhibit and less than 1,000 sign the visitor log. It's just
                                        one of hundreds of things to do at a Jamboree.

                                        On the operating side, K2BSA typically makes about 2,000 to 3,000 HF
                                        contacts during a Jamboree. It also handles about 2,000 outbound
                                        pieces of NTS traffic and takes in about 400 NTS messages to Scouts,
                                        Staff and Leaders. Many of these later messages are "How you doing
                                        messages", but some are time critical messages such as "We can't come
                                        as planned on Monday, but we'll meet you at your troop site on
                                        Tuesday at 9AM", etc.

                                        Providing an automated way for folks to send outgoing Amateur Radio
                                        messages from K2BSA (After they have been reviewed by a ham for
                                        appropriateness) as Bob has suggested is a great idea. I hope he
                                        works to provide such a set-up to the K2BSA staff.

                                        But it doesn't mean that we should ignore our opportunity to place
                                        the words "Amateur Radio" in front of the 100,000 Scouts and parents
                                        beforehand by setting up a system to facilitate the parent's ability
                                        to originate messages to the Jamboree from home. This means making
                                        it simple for the parents to start the process after Johnny has
                                        left. And since we're going to eventually use the airwaves to send
                                        these, it means a licensed ham needs to read the messages before they
                                        ever hit RF.

                                        When personally not at a Jamboree, I've had good success with giving
                                        my personal e-mail address to the parents of Scouts in my council's
                                        contingents so they know how to get a message to their sons. What
                                        I'm proposing is to expand that idea from the 400 people who learn
                                        about Amateur Radio from me to all 35,000 Scouts and their 70,000
                                        parents nationwide

                                        An e-mail redirector is one way to do it and we might even get the
                                        existing ARRL one to handle it. For example when you send an e-mail
                                        to k2gw@... it just forwards it to my real e-mail address.
                                        Similarly, we could have ARRL forward something such as
                                        JamboOH@... for parents in Ohio to the Ohio Section Traffic
                                        Manager or his designee for forwarding. By divvying up the work
                                        regionally, we can make sure they're handled quickly but also are
                                        then able to establish a relationship with the parent to promote
                                        Amateur Radio later.

                                        Once a ham reviews the message for appropriateness, how they start it
                                        on its way to K2BSA is up to them. In my case, I tend to load them
                                        onto our local Packet BBS which digitally forwards them to the
                                        Virginia NTS Nets for relay to K2BSA.

                                        Now to automate things inbound to K2BSA, there should be a discussion
                                        between the Virginia Section Traffic Manager to what automated tools
                                        might link Virginia NTS and K2BSA together for digital traffic. And
                                        K2BSA needs to make sure that the messages get delivered to the sub-
                                        camp post office on a daily basis.

                                        So do we agree that this opportunity to promote Amateur Radio to very
                                        wide audience (much more than the kids at the Jambo) is too a good
                                        thing to ignore? If we don't, then all the technical discussion as
                                        to how to do it is irrelevant.

                                        73

                                        Gary Wilson, K2GW
                                        ARRL PIO
                                      • rahwayflynn
                                        ... Gary clearly states the question: Is there a need for Amateur Radio in this role? I believe there is, despite the plans of the major carriers to deploy
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Feb 22, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Wilson" <k2gw@...> wrote:

                                          > So do we agree that this opportunity to promote Amateur Radio to very
                                          > wide audience (much more than the kids at the Jambo) is too a good
                                          > thing to ignore? If we don't, then all the technical discussion as
                                          > to how to do it is irrelevant.

                                          Gary clearly states the question: Is there a need for Amateur Radio in
                                          this role? I believe there is, despite the plans of the major
                                          carriers to deploy portable cellular and PCS infrastructure.

                                          With that in mind, another way to approach this might be to re-visit
                                          the Western Union Mailgram product and build a similar functionality.

                                          Use the existing ARRL NTS system to send the message via an
                                          appropriate amateur data protocol terminating at W2BSA. Addressing
                                          could use the scout / adult Name, troop, sub camp number. Place a
                                          local printer at W2BSA (laser, high speed). Message is formatted,
                                          printed, and delivered to the indicated sub camp via the existing
                                          postal system.

                                          PS - If you really wanted to go retro, The font HPLHS-Telegram is a
                                          very close copy of the font used by the Western Union and RCA
                                          radiograms. I have it loaded on a local laser printer, along with
                                          facsimile canary yellow paper with the classic Western Union header.

                                          Martin W2RWJ
                                        • Stephen M. Shearer
                                          Gary, Yes, the same file. As you can see, it s not aimed at the parents. I gave them out to get the boys in my council so that they would come and see
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Feb 22, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Gary,
                                            Yes, the same file.
                                            As you can see, it's not aimed at the parents. I gave them out to get the
                                            boys in my council so that they would come and see K2BSA/4. Part of the
                                            challenge for those that made the trip to K2BSA, was finding it. It was
                                            part of the "stamp your passport" program, but it wasn't on the map in 2005
                                            and I don't see it on the (current) 2010 map either, so the boys and adults
                                            that found it, wanted to.

                                            73, Steve

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
                                            Behalf Of Gary Wilson
                                            Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 10:22 PM
                                            To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [ScoutRadio] Re: Using the 2010 Jamboree to Promote Amateur Radio

                                            --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen M. Shearer" <wb3lgc@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > The (hopefully) attached "K2BSA and you..." flier was used at the 2005
                                            > Jamboree for K2BSA. My boys had a copy that was passed out to our
                                            council
                                            > troops. I don't remember where I got a copy before the Jamboree, but
                                            I did.
                                            > They were also given out at K2BSA, at the Jamboree.

                                            The flyer wasn't attached. Look in the files here. Is that the same
                                            one? How would a parent know whom to contact?

                                            73

                                            Gary, K2GW
                                          • Stephen M. Shearer
                                            Some other things to keep in mind. 1. Sunspot numbers were poor in 2005 and the way things are going... 2010 may not be any better. 2. Many boys do use
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Feb 22, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Some other things to keep in mind.

                                              1. Sunspot numbers were poor in 2005 and the way things are going... 2010
                                              may not be any better.
                                              2. Many boys do use K2BSA to "phone home" with the help of local hams. The
                                              boys can make a sked in the evening to reserve the time/freq. Not as easy
                                              to set up as sending a radiogram.
                                              3. If you doubled the station visitors (would be nice) then the staff
                                              and/or the station may not be able to handle the number of visitors. Don't
                                              forget the Merit badge midway. Radio MB and License class required a staff
                                              to run them also. If you double the interest, it may also create a (nice)
                                              problem.

                                              No matter what... Keep it Simple and make it Fun.


                                              73, Steve

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
                                              Behalf Of Gary Wilson
                                              Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:38 AM
                                              To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [ScoutRadio] Increasing Amateur Radio's Public Exposure through the
                                              National Jamboree

                                              This is a good discussion. But we seem to jumping into the
                                              engineering details without first understanding the marketing concept
                                              first. So I'm changing the topic name back to the concept we need to
                                              agree upon first.

                                              Having personally been to a number of national jamborees and looking
                                              at the reports of past K2BSA activity there, you can see the
                                              following are reasonable averages for the past twenty years. Of the
                                              typical 240,000 attendees, staff, day visitors and vendors passing
                                              through a BSA National Jamboree, only about 10,000 actually visit the
                                              K2BSA exhibit and less than 1,000 sign the visitor log. It's just
                                              one of hundreds of things to do at a Jamboree.

                                              On the operating side, K2BSA typically makes about 2,000 to 3,000 HF
                                              contacts during a Jamboree. It also handles about 2,000 outbound
                                              pieces of NTS traffic and takes in about 400 NTS messages to Scouts,
                                              Staff and Leaders. Many of these later messages are "How you doing
                                              messages", but some are time critical messages such as "We can't come
                                              as planned on Monday, but we'll meet you at your troop site on
                                              Tuesday at 9AM", etc.

                                              Providing an automated way for folks to send outgoing Amateur Radio
                                              messages from K2BSA (After they have been reviewed by a ham for
                                              appropriateness) as Bob has suggested is a great idea. I hope he
                                              works to provide such a set-up to the K2BSA staff.

                                              But it doesn't mean that we should ignore our opportunity to place
                                              the words "Amateur Radio" in front of the 100,000 Scouts and parents
                                              beforehand by setting up a system to facilitate the parent's ability
                                              to originate messages to the Jamboree from home. This means making
                                              it simple for the parents to start the process after Johnny has
                                              left. And since we're going to eventually use the airwaves to send
                                              these, it means a licensed ham needs to read the messages before they
                                              ever hit RF.

                                              When personally not at a Jamboree, I've had good success with giving
                                              my personal e-mail address to the parents of Scouts in my council's
                                              contingents so they know how to get a message to their sons. What
                                              I'm proposing is to expand that idea from the 400 people who learn
                                              about Amateur Radio from me to all 35,000 Scouts and their 70,000
                                              parents nationwide

                                              An e-mail redirector is one way to do it and we might even get the
                                              existing ARRL one to handle it. For example when you send an e-mail
                                              to k2gw@... it just forwards it to my real e-mail address.
                                              Similarly, we could have ARRL forward something such as
                                              JamboOH@... for parents in Ohio to the Ohio Section Traffic
                                              Manager or his designee for forwarding. By divvying up the work
                                              regionally, we can make sure they're handled quickly but also are
                                              then able to establish a relationship with the parent to promote
                                              Amateur Radio later.

                                              Once a ham reviews the message for appropriateness, how they start it
                                              on its way to K2BSA is up to them. In my case, I tend to load them
                                              onto our local Packet BBS which digitally forwards them to the
                                              Virginia NTS Nets for relay to K2BSA.

                                              Now to automate things inbound to K2BSA, there should be a discussion
                                              between the Virginia Section Traffic Manager to what automated tools
                                              might link Virginia NTS and K2BSA together for digital traffic. And
                                              K2BSA needs to make sure that the messages get delivered to the sub-
                                              camp post office on a daily basis.

                                              So do we agree that this opportunity to promote Amateur Radio to very
                                              wide audience (much more than the kids at the Jambo) is too a good
                                              thing to ignore? If we don't, then all the technical discussion as
                                              to how to do it is irrelevant.

                                              73

                                              Gary Wilson, K2GW
                                              ARRL PIO




                                              ------------------------------------

                                              Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                                              Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
                                              to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                                              Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                              http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                                              Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                              http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                                              SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGESYahoo! Groups Links



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