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JOTI comments was: 2007 JOTA logos

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  • Sjaak van Dam
    ... Hi Gary and list, JAMBO..... Let s put on my flame retardant suit and give my $0.02 ....... JOTA was conceived 50 years ago (August 4th 1957) in a bar just
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 13 12:26 PM
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      On 8/13/07, Gary Wilson <k2gw@...> wrote:
      ---8<---cut---8<---cut---8<---

      > I feel that JOTI should be a separate event on a different day (perhaps
      > the third weekend in April to separate them) and, if needed, a separate
      > patch could be created for that. To be honest, there are numerous
      > penpal websites out there where kids can talk to other Scouts via the
      > internet on a daily basis, but JOTA is a unique once a year event to
      > showcase using Amatuer radio without any underlying infrastructure.
      >
      > 73
      >
      > Gary, K2GW

      Hi Gary and list,

      JAMBO.....

      Let's put on my flame retardant suit and give my $0.02 .......

      JOTA was conceived 50 years ago (August 4th 1957) in a bar just
      outside the gates of the 9th WSJ - Sutton Coldfield in the UK as a way
      to expand the Jamboree experience beyond the Jamboree campsite.
      The goal of JOTA is for Scouts to exchange Scouting experiances and share ideas.
      JOTI fits this description also.
      In my opinion JOTA is not to showcase Amateur Radio but an opportunity
      for us hams to help scouts expand their horizons.
      The fact that JOTA and JOTI is in the same weekend is great. This way
      Scouts that do not have the opportunity to join up with an Amateur
      Radio operator can still participate in this weekend. EchoLink, CQ100,
      IRLP and other "Internet Enhanced" Amateur Radio communication already
      proved their worth. During the WSJ we (GB100J) used EchoLink
      extensively. The same way JOTI can bring Scouts together. In Europe
      more and more JOTA groups are adding JOTI to their program and there
      are even JOTI groups that are adding JOTA who before the exsistance of
      JOTI never considered JOTA.

      Just my $0.02...

      YiS Sjaak, W4RIS
    • Malcolm - G4CXT
      Hear hear! JOTA is about letting Scouts communicate with other Scouts and flourish as a result of finding out about them, their cultures and their differences
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 13 12:51 PM
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        Hear hear!

        JOTA is about letting Scouts communicate with other Scouts and flourish as a result of finding out about them, their cultures and their differences and of course similarities. Ham radio is just one of several media through which they can achieve this.

        I will for-ever remember the young Cub who literally discovered at JOTA/JOTI that when us Brits are having tea the Aussies are having breakfast.  This discovery was so important to him that he went to tell every leader he could find ;-)

         Getting kids interested in amateur radio is a by-product, not an objective in my personal view.


        73
        
        Malcolm - G4CXT, GB100BI, GB100S, GB0DDS and many others!
        


        Sjaak van Dam wrote:
        On 8/13/07, Gary Wilson <k2gw@...> wrote:
        ---8<---cut---8<---cut---8<---
        
          
        I feel that JOTI should be a separate event on a different day (perhaps
        the third weekend in April to separate them) and, if needed, a separate
        patch could be created for that.  To be honest, there are numerous
        penpal websites out there where kids can talk to other Scouts via the
        internet on a daily basis, but JOTA is a unique once a year event to
        showcase using Amatuer radio without any underlying infrastructure.
        
        73
        
        Gary, K2GW
            
        Hi Gary and list,
        
        JAMBO.....
        
        Let's put on my flame retardant suit and give my $0.02 .......
        
        JOTA was conceived 50 years ago (August 4th 1957) in a bar just
        outside the gates of the 9th WSJ - Sutton Coldfield in the UK as a way
        to expand the Jamboree experience beyond the Jamboree campsite.
        The goal of JOTA is for Scouts to exchange Scouting experiances and share ideas.
        JOTI fits this description also.
        In my opinion JOTA is not to showcase Amateur Radio but an opportunity
        for us hams to help scouts expand their horizons.
        The fact that JOTA and JOTI is in the same weekend is great. This way
        Scouts that do not have the opportunity to join up with an Amateur
        Radio operator can still participate in this weekend. EchoLink, CQ100,
        IRLP and other "Internet Enhanced" Amateur Radio communication already
        proved their worth. During the WSJ we (GB100J) used EchoLink
        extensively. The same way JOTI can bring Scouts together. In Europe
        more and more JOTA groups are adding JOTI to their program and there
        are even JOTI groups that are adding JOTA who before the exsistance of
        JOTI never considered JOTA.
        
        Just my $0.02...
        
        YiS Sjaak, W4RIS
        
        
        Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
        
        Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
        
        Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
        http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
        
        Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
        http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
        
        SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES 
        Yahoo! Groups Links
        
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      • Marc Elvery
        Hi Sjaak and all the others! JOTA-JOTI (with the dash) is an event which is tied together. They can perfectly fill up the holes on both sides. In the
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 13 3:32 PM
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          Hi Sjaak and all the others!

          JOTA-JOTI (with the dash) is an event which is tied together. They can
          perfectly fill up the holes on both sides. In the Netherlands we have
          lot's of groups which participate in both and have lot's of fun. Both
          media are used together to make great programs. The keyword is
          communication between the scouts. The medium is not important, if it's
          done by internet, by air or by pigeon, the important thing is that the
          kids make contact with others. JOTA freaks should not be worried that
          JOTI is taking over. Internet was very interesting 10 years back, but is
          now so common that you have to arrange a program around the JOTI to make
          it interesting. If I look at myself, I started with JOTI in 1994 IIRC,
          and became a Radio Amateur because of the JOTI. Now I use both media
          daily! The event is a perfect match to make it a succesfull weekend!

          Greets and hope to see you during JOTA-JOTI on ScoutLink and talk to you
          on the air.

          Marc Elvery (Member of the Dutch national JOTA-JOTI organization)
          ScoutLink: doc (Country Coordinator in The Netherlands)
          Radio: PE2DOC
        • Gary Wilson
          Sjaak raises a good point about Echolink, but in many countries, folks using Echolink are not permitted to communicate with non-ham computer users, such as
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 13 4:08 PM
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            Sjaak raises a good point about Echolink, but in many countries, folks
            using Echolink are not permitted to communicate with non-ham computer
            users, such as those participating in "JOTI" Thus folks using
            Echolink, etc. and other "internet enhanced Amateur Radio" modes are
            really still participating in JOTA and not communicating with JOTI
            Scouts. So JOTA and JOTI are really two separate events operating in
            parallel.

            I fail to see how having JOTI on a different weekend than JOTA with a
            different patch would REDUCE the number of opportunities for Scouts to
            communicate with Scouts in other countries. It seems to me it would
            DOUBLE them by giving kids have two opportunities to participate each
            year. And it would reduce confusion between the two technologies and
            allow obvious tie-ins to the separate related merit badges, at least
            here in the US.

            73 & YIS,

            Gary, K2GW
          • Rob Hoitt
            Malcolm; Don t forget that in some parts of the US, we eat lunch when you are at tea, and the aussies are at breakfast. ;) Cheers! -- Rob Hoitt, N1FSK
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 14 6:41 AM
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              Malcolm;
              Don't forget that in some parts of the US, we eat lunch when you are at tea, and the aussies are at breakfast. ;)
               
              Cheers!
              --
              Rob Hoitt, N1FSK
              n1fsk@...
            • Frank Krizan
              Howdy all, I am in favor of separating JOTA and JOTI. JOTA has been held in October since its beginning. I like the idea of holding JOTI in April. It s 6
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 14 7:13 AM
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                Howdy all,

                 

                I am in favor of separating JOTA and JOTI.  JOTA has been held in October since its beginning.  I like the idea of holding JOTI in April.  It’s 6 months opposite JOTA in October. 

                 

                JOTA and JOTI are two different forms of communication.  JOTA uses electronic equipment, in particular radios to communicate between locations “without wires” and without any supporting infrastructure other than the ether, which is “free” and without tariff.  JOTI uses electronic equipment, in particular computers which require a “wired” and tariffed infrastructure.  I do acknowledge that Ham radio also uses the internet and satellites, but, let’s face it ... most of JOTA is accomplished using SSB on HF.  I’m sure there are localities that benefit from IRLP and EchoLink connected repeaters, but, for JOTA this should be RF to RF with the internet in between.

                 

                Most scouts are not licensed amateur radio operators.  I would suspect that the great majority of scouts have access to the internet, either personally or through their school or community.  If the proper software infrastructure is in place, scouts could safely communicate via the internet with other scouts at their leisure.  Having a specific day or dates really isn’t necessary.  JOTA benefits from Ham radio volunteers assisting scouts in talking over the airwaves.

                 

                If it’s “communicating” that’s the emphasis, I wonder why someone hasn’t suggested JOTT – Jamboree Over The Telephone.  Scouts who want to “talk” with other scouts just list their telephone number in a periodical or on the internet and other scouts, somewhere in the world, randomly or pseudorandomly choose a number to call.  The cost is probably not that great compared to the cost of computers, data lines or radios.  I seem to remember Wayne Green of 73 Magazine suggesting something like this for DXCC many years ago.

                 

                I suspect that areas of the globe that have a limited number of adult volunteers who are scouters, Hams and internet enthusiasts would prefer to get everything over and done with in one weekend.  Those same folks are probably strapped with organizing campouts, activities and numerous other scout gatherings.  Areas that have an adequate number of volunteers probably don’t mind having activities, such as JOTA and JOTI, at different times of the year. 

                 

                Why not have other forms of communication promoted during the year?  During the summer, we could have JUMM – Jamboree Using Mechanical Means (i.e., semaphone, heliograph and wig wag).  In the winter, we could have JUWM – Jamboree Using Written Methods (i.e., Pen Pals). 

                 

                If it’s a weekend of communicating along with scouting, why not get scouting groups all over the world to hold their Fall Camporee, Fall Jambos, JOTA, JOTI, October campout, JOTT, JUMM, JUWM,  and whatever else on the same weekend.  That way, we could get all scouting activities out of the way for a season or the entire year and allow everyone to relax the rest of the year.  Maybe we could call this the “JAMBOREE ELECTRONICA” where any form of electronic communication is encouraged.  BEFORE YOU GO OFF ON THE DEEP END ... THIS IS A TONGUE IN CHEEK STATEMENT ...

                 

                I realize that radios and the internet have become intermingled in the last few years.  Some previous posters have suggested that the goal is allowing scouts to communicate with other scouts and that radio and the internet are just means to that end.  Many scout units and larger groups operate a Ham radio station at a remote campsite during JOTA.  Scouts are able to communicate using no wires and no tariffs with other scouts.  These units don’t have the luxury of the internet at campsites.  Yes, I know wireless internet is becoming more available throughout the US, but, infrastructure and tariffs are involved.  One can’t do JOTI without help from someone else as the “middleman”. 

                 

                If JOTI is held at another time of the year, an international event would be easier to accomplish in a “home” environment with good internet access.  Two separate events would probably significantly increase the total participation world-wide.   

                 

                I think I also speak for the many RadioScouters who nostalgically remember the roots of JOTA and don’t want to see Ham Radio and RadioScouting watered down.  These same RadioScouters are also involved in the internet and would probably be happy to assist with a JOTI operation, but, in a different setting.  From a youth-safety standpoint, I also believe that JOTA has greater youth-protection safeguards than communicating over the internet.  Radio contacts are generally supervised and “self policed”.  The internet has limited supervision  and little policing.

                 

                73, Frank KR1ZAN

                 

                 

                 

                 


                From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Wilson
                Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 7:08 PM
                To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [ScoutRadio] Re: JOTI comments was: 2007 JOTA logos

                 

                <<< snip ... snip >>>


                I fail to see how having JOTI on a different weekend than JOTA with a
                different patch would REDUCE the number of opportunities for Scouts to
                communicate with Scouts in other countries. It seems to me it would
                DOUBLE them by giving kids have two opportunities to participate each
                year. And it would reduce confusion between the two technologies and
                allow obvious tie-ins to the separate related merit badges, at least
                here in the US.

                73 & YIS,

                Gary, K2GW

              • David Hutchinson
                Hello Malcolm and Sjaak If it weren t for echolink and communication with the ISS we might have been struggling at GB100J. I learned several things while at
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 14 8:00 AM
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                  Hello Malcolm and Sjaak

                  If it weren't for echolink and communication with the ISS we might
                  have been struggling at GB100J. I learned several things while at the
                  Jamboree and I guess the most important thing was the spirit of
                  fellowship and friendship that we have as a movement that doesn't
                  exist too many other places. We had a team of over 40 operators from
                  many different countries and everyone was contributing their time and
                  personal equipment and experience to make the station work. I noted
                  that many of our operators whose first language is not English were
                  making contacts with countries that I would not have made - because I
                  do not speak too many langages EXCEPT English. Our foreign Scouting
                  brethren put us to shame with their skill in speaking English.

                  I agree that its all about communicating - not how you communicate.
                  We need to remember that we are at the bottom of a sunspot cycle and
                  amateur radio is at a disadvantage right now because propogation is
                  so poor - but that will change. If we can't make the contacts on the
                  airwaves at the moment because conditions are against us what is the
                  harm in using methods like echolink and the Internet?

                  73 de David GI4FUM


                  --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm - G4CXT <g4cxt@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hear hear!
                  >
                  > JOTA is about letting Scouts communicate with other Scouts and
                  flourish
                  > as a result of finding out about them, their cultures and their
                  > differences and of course similarities. Ham radio is just one of
                  several
                  > media through which they can achieve this.
                  >
                  > I will for-ever remember the young Cub who literally discovered at
                  > JOTA/JOTI that when us Brits are having tea the Aussies are having
                  > breakfast. This discovery was so important to him that he went to
                  tell
                  > every leader he could find ;-)
                  >
                  > Getting kids interested in amateur radio is a by-product, not an
                  > objective in my personal view.
                  >
                  >
                  > 73
                  >
                  > Malcolm - G4CXT, GB100BI, GB100S, GB0DDS and many others!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Sjaak van Dam wrote:
                  > > On 8/13/07, Gary Wilson <k2gw@...> wrote:
                  > > ---8<---cut---8<---cut---8<---
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >> I feel that JOTI should be a separate event on a different day
                  (perhaps
                  > >> the third weekend in April to separate them) and, if needed, a
                  separate
                  > >> patch could be created for that. To be honest, there are
                  numerous
                  > >> penpal websites out there where kids can talk to other Scouts
                  via the
                  > >> internet on a daily basis, but JOTA is a unique once a year
                  event to
                  > >> showcase using Amatuer radio without any underlying
                  infrastructure.
                  > >>
                  > >> 73
                  > >>
                  > >> Gary, K2GW
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > > Hi Gary and list,
                  > >
                  > > JAMBO.....
                  > >
                  > > Let's put on my flame retardant suit and give my $0.02 .......
                  > >
                  > > JOTA was conceived 50 years ago (August 4th 1957) in a bar just
                  > > outside the gates of the 9th WSJ - Sutton Coldfield in the UK as
                  a way
                  > > to expand the Jamboree experience beyond the Jamboree campsite.
                  > > The goal of JOTA is for Scouts to exchange Scouting experiances
                  and share ideas.
                  > > JOTI fits this description also.
                  > > In my opinion JOTA is not to showcase Amateur Radio but an
                  opportunity
                  > > for us hams to help scouts expand their horizons.
                  > > The fact that JOTA and JOTI is in the same weekend is great. This
                  way
                  > > Scouts that do not have the opportunity to join up with an Amateur
                  > > Radio operator can still participate in this weekend. EchoLink,
                  CQ100,
                  > > IRLP and other "Internet Enhanced" Amateur Radio communication
                  already
                  > > proved their worth. During the WSJ we (GB100J) used EchoLink
                  > > extensively. The same way JOTI can bring Scouts together. In
                  Europe
                  > > more and more JOTA groups are adding JOTI to their program and
                  there
                  > > are even JOTI groups that are adding JOTA who before the
                  exsistance of
                  > > JOTI never considered JOTA.
                  > >
                  > > Just my $0.02...
                  > >
                  > > YiS Sjaak, W4RIS
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                  > >
                  > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                  subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                  > >
                  > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                  > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                  > >
                  > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                  > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                  > >
                  > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Sjaak van Dam
                  Hi Frank and all, I will insert my comments below. ... There are locations and license restrictions that prevent some Amateur Radio operators from connecting
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 14 8:11 AM
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                    Hi Frank and all,

                    I will insert my comments below.

                    On 8/14/07, Frank Krizan <frank.krizan@... > wrote:

                    Howdy all,

                     

                    I am in favor of separating JOTA and JOTI.  JOTA has been held in October since its beginning.  I like the idea of holding JOTI in April.  It's 6 months opposite JOTA in October.
                     

                    JOTA and JOTI are two different forms of communication.  JOTA uses electronic equipment, in particular radios to communicate between locations "without wires" and without any supporting infrastructure other than the ether, which is "free" and without tariff.  JOTI uses electronic equipment, in particular computers which require a "wired" and tariffed infrastructure.  I do acknowledge that Ham radio also uses the internet and satellites, but, let's face it ... most of JOTA is accomplished using SSB on HF.  I'm sure there are localities that benefit from IRLP and EchoLink connected repeaters, but, for JOTA this should be RF to RF with the internet in between.


                    There are locations and  license restrictions that prevent some Amateur Radio operators from connecting to other Scouts around the world. Here IRLP, Echolink, CQ100 and JOTI can provide a solution.
                    However, some of the most enjoyable JOTA contacts I made when I was a (cub) Scout was with the troop down the road (less then 1/4 of a mile!)
                    For Cubs SSB is difficult to understand and most Cubs in other countries don't speak your language (J-code can help here http://home.tiscali.nl/worldscout/Jota/library.htm)

                    Most scouts are not licensed amateur radio operators.  I would suspect that the great majority of scouts have access to the internet, either personally or through their school or community.  If the proper software infrastructure is in place, scouts could safely communicate via the internet with other scouts at their leisure.  Having a specific day or dates really isn't necessary.  JOTA benefits from Ham radio volunteers assisting scouts in talking over the airwaves.


                    Actually a lot of Scouts don't have access to the Internet. Only us in the western "connected" world have this luxury.

                    If it's "communicating" that's the emphasis, I wonder why someone hasn't suggested JOTT – Jamboree Over The Telephone.  Scouts who want to "talk" with other scouts just list their telephone number in a periodical or on the internet and other scouts, somewhere in the world, randomly or pseudorandomly choose a number to call.  The cost is probably not that great compared to the cost of computers, data lines or radios.  I seem to remember Wayne Green of 73 Magazine suggesting something like this for DXCC many years ago.


                    I like the JOTT idea ;) But telephones are not every where.

                    I suspect that areas of the globe that have a limited number of adult volunteers who are scouters, Hams and internet enthusiasts would prefer to get everything over and done with in one weekend.  Those same folks are probably strapped with organizing campouts, activities and numerous other scout gatherings.  Areas that have an adequate number of volunteers probably don't mind having activities, such as JOTA and JOTI, at different times of the year. 


                    You might be right that it would not be a problem organizing a separate JOTI weekend. But I am still not convinced that have the JOTI during the same weekend as JOTA is such a big problem. (see my point at the end of this email)

                    Why not have other forms of communication promoted during the year?  During the summer, we could have JUMM – Jamboree Using Mechanical Means (i.e., semaphone, heliograph and wig wag).  In the winter, we could have JUWM – Jamboree Using Written Methods (i.e., Pen Pals).

                    If it's a weekend of communicating along with scouting, why not get scouting groups all over the world to hold their Fall Camporee, Fall Jambos, JOTA, JOTI, October campout, JOTT, JUMM, JUWM,  and whatever else on the same weekend.  That way, we could get all scouting activities out of the way for a season or the entire year and allow everyone to relax the rest of the year.  Maybe we could call this the "JAMBOREE ELECTRONICA" where any form of electronic communication is encouraged.  BEFORE YOU GO OFF ON THE DEEP END ... THIS IS A TONGUE IN CHEEK STATEMENT ...


                    ;-)

                    I realize that radios and the internet have become intermingled in the last few years.  Some previous posters have suggested that the goal is allowing scouts to communicate with other scouts and that radio and the internet are just means to that end.  Many scout units and larger groups operate a Ham radio station at a remote campsite during JOTA.  Scouts are able to communicate using no wires and no tariffs with other scouts.  These units don't have the luxury of the internet at campsites.  Yes, I know wireless internet is becoming more available throughout the US, but, infrastructure and tariffs are involved.  One can't do JOTI without help from someone else as the "middleman". 


                    The same goes for JOTA as many Scouts are not licensed or don't have the financial means of buying HF rigs.

                    If JOTI is held at another time of the year, an international event would be easier to accomplish in a "home" environment with good internet access.  Two separate events would probably significantly increase the total participation world-wide.   

                     

                    I think I also speak for the many RadioScouters who nostalgically remember the roots of JOTA and don't want to see Ham Radio and RadioScouting watered down.  These same RadioScouters are also involved in the internet and would probably be happy to assist with a JOTI operation, but, in a different setting.  From a youth-safety standpoint, I also believe that JOTA has greater youth-protection safeguards than communicating over the internet.  Radio contacts are generally supervised and "self policed".  The internet has limited supervision  and little policing.


                    The way JOTI is setup is that it is supervised. The JOTI organizers and volunteers put a lot of time and effort in the safety of the Scouts.
                    If you think radio is safe then download MMSSTV and hook it up to you radio. A lot of the SSTV pictures that are on the airwaves are not suitable for (Cub) Scouts.....

                    73, Frank KR1ZAN

                     
                    The JOTA vs JOTI discussion comes up every year and me reacting to it doesn't help.....
                    In my opinion the underlying issue is not JOTA vs JOTI but the fact the many Hams feel threatened by the Internet.
                    I say this because after a decline in JOTA participation that bottomed in 2001 JOTA participation has been rising world wide ever since!
                    So the JOTI thread is only in the mind of the Amateur Radio operator because the figures tell a different story.
                    It is up to US (Licensed Amateur Radio Operators) to keep the hobby interesting and appealing to young people! JOTA can be a great show case for the hobby as long as we don't forget that we are there to assist the Scouts!
                    In the USA less then 1% of the Scouts participate in JOTA / JOTI. It is up to us Radio Scouts to get the word out and show Troops and Councils what a great event JOTA is!

                    YiS Sjaak
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