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Re: [ScoutRadio] WB

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  • Sjaak van Dam
    Hi List, First off I must apologize beforehand if I repeat any thing that was already said as I only scanned trhough the discussions.. ... I tend to agree but
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 10, 2006
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      Hi List,

      First off I must apologize beforehand if I repeat any thing that was
      already said as I only scanned trhough the discussions..

      > 1) The best time that kids take an interest and are
      > motivated to do something new is about the 8 to
      > 12 year old range.

      I tend to agree but if you can make an activity interesting enough you
      can get older scouts interested

      > 2) Most of HAM radio does not impress them. Most
      > already have a cell phone

      I have been a staff member of several Amateur Radio stations at big
      scouting events (PI4RIS, PA6RIS, PA6NWK, PA6ESJ, PA6WSJ, XR3J and was
      sceduled to go to E20AJ) and I have noticed that in recent years kids
      are getting more and more interested in Amateur Radio again. The
      Internet (and cellphones?) has lost its appeal as something new.

      > 3) But they ***ARE*** fascinated by the secret code (CW)
      > (Again, at the 8 to 10 year age)... THink harry potter

      A big hit at activities is always our CW competition. We have an old
      computer with a simple DOS (GWBASIC) program that will sound out CW
      and show the dits and dahs on the screen. as the person behind the
      keys decodes the CW correctly the speeds goes up. At the end of the
      day there usually is a small price for the winner.
      You can find it on Richard's (PA3BAR WJO) page:
      http://home.hetnet.nl/~richard.middelkoop/Jota/library.htm

      > 4) And they can learn enough of it in one hour to
      > communicate some simple things...
      >
      > What we need is a FREE HAM radio program that
      > runs on a PC and the internet and LOOKS like a
      > HAM radio. You turn the dial and move up and
      > down the "NOVICE" bands.
      >
      > In there you "hear via your sound card speaker"
      > any CW statios. There is also a spectrum display to
      > show where to listen.
      >
      > AND the program lets ANYONE send CW using their
      > MOUSE button. Everyone on the planet can particapte
      > (just like HF) and the internet ties it all together
      > by providing the link.
      >
      > THink about it. It looks and feels 100% like HAM
      > radio, and it is CW based so that there is a
      > challenge to "entering the secret code room".
      > And no one needs a license to use it.

      I have seen a program a while ago (forgot the name) that will let you
      "chat" across the internet using CW.

      > One thing that is overlooked in the outreach to kids
      > is that they are intimidated to have to use a Mic
      > to talk to an adult. In fact, they wont even talk to
      > each other, except make noises... But CW is the
      > great blind pipeline that eliminates some of the
      > human security issues mostly because the receiver
      > and sender are concentrating so much on the CW
      > and spelling, that there are no other human distractios
      > such as race and gender and age and accent.

      You can also use RTTY to overcome mic fear. During JOTA our group
      would setup 2 old Telexes in different rooms of our clubhouse and have
      the kids just chat with each other before letting them loose on the
      air with RTTY.

      > I sure wish I knew how to write Internet linked code
      > and I would do this in a heart beat. I'm not talking
      > about AUDIO serving. I am talking about a system
      > that APPEARS as audio to the recepient including
      > 100 Hz tuning steps and QRM and multiple signals
      > all in the same bandwidth. (unless they select
      > a "500 Hz filter"... etc...
      >
      > But the Internet link uses UDP packets and digitized
      > CW for efficiency. Timing is a big problem, but I
      > am sure there are some experts out there that
      > can take the challenge for the future of HAM radio.
      >
      > de Wb4APR, Bob

      I'm not quite convinced that software like Bob suggests will be THE
      way to get more interest but I'm sure it will help to some extent.
      I think we have enough "tricks" to get more scouts interested like
      SSTV, ATV, PSK31, Sattelite etc. The biggest challange is to get
      enought volunteers (Hams) to guide these Scouts.
      The Netherlands is one of the countries that has the higest
      participation of scouts during JOTA. In The Netherlands a large
      percentage of new Hams got their frist introduction in to Amateur
      Radio via JOTA. Scouting Netherlands has a special team, Radio
      Scouting Netherlans (PA6RSN, PA6JAM) that coordinates and promotes
      JOTA/I and there is a national scout troop the "Radio Interesse Stam,
      PI4RIS" (Radio Interested Scouts) where scouts can go to when they
      want more information or want to do more with Amateur Radio then just
      JOTA. The event is so well organized and run that the Dutch FCC
      granted RSN special privilages to designate special event stations
      (like JOTA) and to allow them to have non licensed operators control
      the mike (provided there is a control operator).
      I realize that the US is a bit bigger then The Netherlands......but it
      takes a few dedicated volunteers to get things going.

      I think a good place to start is to promote JOTA more with the local
      Councils and local radio clubs.
      Maybe we can convince local clubs to host a MB event during Field Day?
      this will give them bonis points and will give the Scouts the
      oppertunity to get their MB.

      Just my $0.02

      Sjaak, W4RIS ex-PA3GVR
    • Rob Hoitt
      We ve seen that too... Mike contacts SSTV folks by phone first to tell them we have youth around. It usually does the job... Rob Hoitt, N1FSK Assistant Section
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 11, 2006
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        We've seen that too... Mike contacts SSTV folks by phone first to tell them we have youth around. It usually does the job...

        Rob Hoitt, N1FSK
        Assistant Section Manager - Scouting
        ARRL - New Hamsphire Section
      • Michael Baur
        Just received the email from Sjaak, W4RIS that was sent two days ago (thanks to Yahoo email) regarding a CW over Internet computer program. Think of my
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 12, 2006
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          Just received the email from Sjaak, W4RIS that was sent two days ago
          (thanks to Yahoo email) regarding a CW over Internet computer program.
          Think of my reply-to-Mr.Bruniga below as "unintentional ignorance of
          what W4RIS said" since that's what it is. It's how-we-might-do-this
          instead of why-we-want-this.


          On 7/9/06, Robert Bruninga <bruninga@...> wrote:

          > Here is what I think would help HAm radio and scouting
          > at the CUB and tenderfoot level.
          >
          > Let me remind you that I am NOT ***NOT*** a CW
          > proponent. I never use it on the air since 40 years
          > ago when I was a novice. (Though I can still copy it.)
          >
          > But my experience with scouts and HAM radio is that
          >
          > 1) The best time that kids take an interest and are
          > motivated to do something new is about the 8 to
          > 12 year old range.
          >
          > 2) Most of HAM radio does not impress them. Most
          > already have a cell phone
          >
          > 3) But they ***ARE*** fascinated by the secret code (CW)
          > (Again, at the 8 to 10 year age)... THink harry potter
          >
          > 4) And they can learn enough of it in one hour to
          > communicate some simple things...
          >
          > What we need is a FREE HAM radio program that
          > runs on a PC and the internet and LOOKS like a
          > HAM radio. You turn the dial and move up and
          > down the "NOVICE" bands.
          >
          > In there you "hear via your sound card speaker"
          > any CW statios. There is also a spectrum display to
          > show where to listen.
          >
          > AND the program lets ANYONE send CW using their
          > MOUSE button. Everyone on the planet can particapte
          > (just like HF) and the internet ties it all together
          > by providing the link.
          >
          > THink about it. It looks and feels 100% like HAM
          > radio, and it is CW based so that there is a
          > challenge to "entering the secret code room".
          > And no one needs a license to use it.
          >
          > One thing that is overlooked in the outreach to kids
          > is that they are intimidated to have to use a Mic
          > to talk to an adult. In fact, they wont even talk to
          > each other, except make noises... But CW is the
          > great blind pipeline that eliminates some of the
          > human security issues mostly because the receiver
          > and sender are concentrating so much on the CW
          > and spelling, that there are no other human distractios
          > such as race and gender and age and accent.
          >
          > I sure wish I knew how to write Internet linked code
          > and I would do this in a heart beat. I'm not talking
          > about AUDIO serving. I am talking about a system
          > that APPEARS as audio to the recepient including
          > 100 Hz tuning steps and QRM and multiple signals
          > all in the same bandwidth. (unless they select
          > a "500 Hz filter"... etc...
          >
          > But the Internet link uses UDP packets and digitized
          > CW for efficiency. Timing is a big problem, but I
          > am sure there are some experts out there that
          > can take the challenge for the future of HAM radio.
          >
          > de Wb4APR, Bob


          I also wish I could code this, but someone else will have to take
          advantage of this opportunity. Perhaps that someone will use tools
          like the ones mentioned at:
          http://www.computing.net/programming/wwwboard/forum/13366.html
          That might help with the basic program itself, before networking.
          It's not difficult to make a picture of a ham rig. It seems the hard
          part would be how to digitize a virtual HF band.

          If it uses a central server (as opposed to some kind of peer-to-peer
          network), I think timing and such would be easier, though someone
          would have to have a server for it. Depending on the size of the data
          passed, maybe the server demand would be pretty low and this wouldn't
          be a problem. At any rate, I just hope the eventual solution has a
          nice low hardware/software requirement at the user end, so my shack
          can run the thing.

          People COULD just use a chatroom that only allows "." and "-" until
          the hard part is figured out, so the program would be distributed in
          stages. That might spread Morse Code use quicker, BUT it would be
          less likely to tie in ham radio since it loses the look of a
          transceiver and it negates the "audio" or even "musical" aspect of
          actual Morse over radio. It loses the soul of the original idea. So,
          anyone else have more thoughts on the matter?

          In the mean time I'll have to keep Morse Coding the old-fashioned way:
          in email signatures.

          - Michael Baur, kd5npf@...
          --... ...-- -.. . -.- -.. ..... -. .--. ..-. -..-. ---..


          P.S. porting CW (the simplest radio communication) to computer is
          surprisingly complex!
        • Frank Krizan
          Hi Bob, I agree with you about the high interest level of ages 8 to 10 and the peculiar interest of that age group in secret codes. Take a look at
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 14, 2006
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            Hi Bob,

             

            I agree with you about the high interest level of ages 8 to 10 and the peculiar interest of that age group in “secret” codes.  Take a look at http://www.mrx.com.au/d_cwcom.htm   

             

            I’m currently traveling and at an RV rally so don’t have a lot of time on my hands to review software.  I have tried MorseMail in the past and certainly enjoyed it.  This software/server doesn’t satisfy all your requirements for the “radio look”, but, might help with proving the technique. 

             

            Thanks so very much for your continued contributions to Scouting and Amateur Radio.

             

            73, Frank KR1ZAN

            … currently in Forest City, IA – home of Winnebago

             


            From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga
            Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 10:46 AM
            To: onamo@...; ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: Robert Bruninga
            Subject: Re: [ScoutRadio] WB

             

            Here is what I think would help HAm radio and scouting
            at the CUB and tenderfoot level.

            Let me remind you that I am NOT ***NOT*** a CW
            proponent. I never use it on the air since 40 years
            ago when I was a novice. (Though I can still copy it.)

            But my experience with scouts and HAM radio is that

            1) The best time that kids take an interest and are
            motivated to do something new is about the 8 to
            12 year old range.

            2) Most of HAM radio does not impress them. Most
            already have a cell phone

            3) But they ***ARE*** fascinated by the secret code (CW)
            (Again, at the 8 to 10 year age)... THink harry potter

            4) And they can learn enough of it in one hour to
            communicate some simple things...

            What we need is a FREE HAM radio program that
            runs on a PC and the internet and LOOKS like a
            HAM radio. You turn the dial and move up and
            down the "NOVICE" bands.

            In there you "hear via your sound card speaker"
            any CW statios. There is also a spectrum display to
            show where to listen.

            AND the program lets ANYONE send CW using their
            MOUSE button. Everyone on the planet can particapte
            (just like HF) and the internet ties it all together
            by providing the link.

            THink about it. It looks and feels 100% like HAM
            radio, and it is CW based so that there is a
            challenge to "entering the secret code room".
            And no one needs a license to use it.

            One thing that is overlooked in the outreach to kids
            is that they are intimidated to have to use a Mic
            to talk to an adult. In fact, they wont even talk to
            each other, except make noises... But CW is the
            great blind pipeline that eliminates some of the
            human security issues mostly because the receiver
            and sender are concentrating so much on the CW
            and spelling, that there are no other human distractios
            such as race and gender and age and accent.

            I sure wish I knew how to write Internet linked code
            and I would do this in a heart beat. I'm not talking
            about AUDIO serving. I am talking about a system
            that APPEARS as audio to the recepient including
            100 Hz tuning steps and QRM and multiple signals
            all in the same bandwidth. (unless they select
            a "500 Hz filter"... etc...

            But the Internet link uses UDP packets and digitized
            CW for efficiency. Timing is a big problem, but I
            am sure there are some experts out there that
            can take the challenge for the future of HAM radio.

            de Wb4APR, Bob

            >>> onamo@hotmail. com
            07/09/06 7:44 AM >>>
            Good morning,

            Sorry about the woodbadge mistake, you know woodbadgers never miss a
            chance to rib each other. I see that Gary signed with his woodbadge
            patrol. I am sorry that I didn't get really involved in amateur radio
            untill my son wanted to be one. This push to get scouting really
            involved in amateur radio is great. My first taste was with the Marine
            corp while serving in the far east. I got involved with a com guy who
            was going to teach me morse code, but he couldn't bring his code
            coping skills down to my level.
            In these times with all the possible dangers out there it will be a
            plus for scouts to learn amateur radio it sure will help with their
            emergency prepardness. I am really enjoying scoutradio, it is putting
            excitement back into my invovement in scouting. After 57 year and
            doing all kinds of jobs in scouting I was ready for a new challange.
            I think Asst. Section Manager for Scouting and Youth is going to do it.
            I have really enjoyed my Eagle I earned it in 1954 and the reward from
            it have outstanding. My only mistake was when I went through Parris
            Island the Drill Instructor was looking for a guide. He asked if
            anyone had been an Eagle Scout and and the Recruiter who signed me up
            said don't let them learn your name. Well I didn't speak up and a guy
            from New York said he was. Made him the guide on and he made PFC and
            got a set of dress blue out of boot camp, I learned my lesson. I now
            impress on scouts earning Eagle let it be known.
            Keep up the good work.

            73's
            Rudy KA4PLH

            Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/radio- scouting- uk

            Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/ScoutRadio Youth

            Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
            http://www.ontarget bsa.org/

            Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
            http://www.k1dwu. net/ham-links/ clubs.-.scouting .phtml

            Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld .com/ars/

            ScoutRadio start page:
            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

            Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogro ups.com
            Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscr ibe@yahoogroups. com
            List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@ yahoogroups. com

            SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
            Yahoo! Groups Links

          • IronRoads
            OK. This sounds cool. I volunteer to help code, er..., program the user interface if we end up deciding to write the client in Java. It shouldn t be too hard
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 18, 2006
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              OK.  This sounds cool. 

              I volunteer to help code, er..., program the user interface if we
              end up deciding to write the client in Java.  It shouldn't be too hard
              to get it to work on Win, Linux, and Mac.

              To get the ball rolling, we'll need at least two more volunteers:
              1) Someone to write the server/network stuff.
                  (this could be two people, one responsible for the client-server
                   protocols, and one to handle the server internals)
              2) Someone that knows about a couple of different CW radios.
                  (I just got my ticket and don't have a HF radio yet)
                  This person would be the domain specialist that would help
                  the programmers correctly simulate what it is like to be on
                  the air.

              Anybody else?

              Mark Z, ki6abr



              On 7/12/06, Michael Baur <kd5npf@... > wrote:

              Just received the email from Sjaak, W4RIS that was sent two days ago
              (thanks to Yahoo email) regarding a CW over Internet computer program.
              Think of my reply-to-Mr.Bruniga below as "unintentional ignorance of
              what W4RIS said" since that's what it is. It's how-we-might-do-this
              instead of why-we-want-this.



              On 7/9/06, Robert Bruninga <bruninga@...> wrote:

              > Here is what I think would help HAm radio and scouting
              > at the CUB and tenderfoot level.
              >
              > Let me remind you that I am NOT ***NOT*** a CW
              > proponent. I never use it on the air since 40 years
              > ago when I was a novice. (Though I can still copy it.)
              >
              > But my experience with scouts and HAM radio is that
              >
              > 1) The best time that kids take an interest and are
              > motivated to do something new is about the 8 to
              > 12 year old range.
              >
              > 2) Most of HAM radio does not impress them. Most
              > already have a cell phone
              >
              > 3) But they ***ARE*** fascinated by the secret code (CW)
              > (Again, at the 8 to 10 year age)... THink harry potter
              >
              > 4) And they can learn enough of it in one hour to
              > communicate some simple things...
              >
              > What we need is a FREE HAM radio program that
              > runs on a PC and the internet and LOOKS like a
              > HAM radio. You turn the dial and move up and
              > down the "NOVICE" bands.
              >
              > In there you "hear via your sound card speaker"
              > any CW statios. There is also a spectrum display to
              > show where to listen.
              >
              > AND the program lets ANYONE send CW using their
              > MOUSE button. Everyone on the planet can particapte
              > (just like HF) and the internet ties it all together
              > by providing the link.
              >
              > THink about it. It looks and feels 100% like HAM
              > radio, and it is CW based so that there is a
              > challenge to "entering the secret code room".
              > And no one needs a license to use it.
              >
              > One thing that is overlooked in the outreach to kids
              > is that they are intimidated to have to use a Mic
              > to talk to an adult. In fact, they wont even talk to
              > each other, except make noises... But CW is the
              > great blind pipeline that eliminates some of the
              > human security issues mostly because the receiver
              > and sender are concentrating so much on the CW
              > and spelling, that there are no other human distractios
              > such as race and gender and age and accent.
              >
              > I sure wish I knew how to write Internet linked code
              > and I would do this in a heart beat. I'm not talking
              > about AUDIO serving. I am talking about a system
              > that APPEARS as audio to the recepient including
              > 100 Hz tuning steps and QRM and multiple signals
              > all in the same bandwidth. (unless they select
              > a "500 Hz filter"... etc...
              >
              > But the Internet link uses UDP packets and digitized
              > CW for efficiency. Timing is a big problem, but I
              > am sure there are some experts out there that
              > can take the challenge for the future of HAM radio.
              >
              > de Wb4APR, Bob

              I also wish I could code this, but someone else will have to take
              advantage of this opportunity. Perhaps that someone will use tools
              like the ones mentioned at:
              http://www.computing.net/programming/wwwboard/forum/13366.html
              That might help with the basic program itself, before networking.
              It's not difficult to make a picture of a ham rig. It seems the hard
              part would be how to digitize a virtual HF band.

              If it uses a central server (as opposed to some kind of peer-to-peer
              network), I think timing and such would be easier, though someone
              would have to have a server for it. Depending on the size of the data
              passed, maybe the server demand would be pretty low and this wouldn't
              be a problem. At any rate, I just hope the eventual solution has a
              nice low hardware/software requirement at the user end, so my shack
              can run the thing.

              People COULD just use a chatroom that only allows "." and "-" until
              the hard part is figured out, so the program would be distributed in
              stages. That might spread Morse Code use quicker, BUT it would be
              less likely to tie in ham radio since it loses the look of a
              transceiver and it negates the "audio" or even "musical" aspect of
              actual Morse over radio. It loses the soul of the original idea. So,
              anyone else have more thoughts on the matter?

              In the mean time I'll have to keep Morse Coding the old-fashioned way:
              in email signatures.

              - Michael Baur, kd5npf@...
              --... ...-- -.. . -.- -.. ..... -. .--. ..-. -..-. ---..

              P.S. porting CW (the simplest radio communication) to computer is
              surprisingly complex!


            • Jon Robert Pellant
              Switched the subject becuase I wasn t really following this thread... Anyway, I might be able to help out on the network/server architecutre side... This
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 20, 2006
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                Switched the 'subject' becuase I wasn't really following this
                thread...

                Anyway, I might be able to help out on the network/server
                architecutre side... This DOES sound like a 'cool' project.

                There are a number of discussion points however, before starting to
                code. There are a few alternative architectures to choose from.
                Before jumping into that, we need to look at our target market
                (assuming it is the 8-12yo).

                TARGET_MARKET_(TM):
                - 8-10yo will most likely be sharing a computer (at home or school)
                - They will not be able to install a program (if it is not their
                computer)
                - They will need easy to use HCI (Human Computer Interface) as
                ergonomically speaking-- school, library, and shared home computers
                are not optimal cw workstations for this target market.

                PROGRAM_GOALS:
                - Develop a panache for amateur radio in the target market (TM: 8-
                12yo)
                - Create a safe cw chat environement accessable to TM.
                - Etc.

                This does sound like it might have some legs if we do it right.

                $0.02,
                Jon AB1FF


                --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, IronRoads <IronRoads@...> wrote:
                >
                > OK. This sounds cool.
                >
                > I volunteer to help code, er..., program the user interface if we
                > end up deciding to write the client in Java. It shouldn't be too
                hard
                > to get it to work on Win, Linux, and Mac.
                >
                > To get the ball rolling, we'll need at least two more volunteers:
                > 1) Someone to write the server/network stuff.
                > (this could be two people, one responsible for the client-
                server
                > protocols, and one to handle the server internals)
                > 2) Someone that knows about a couple of different CW radios.
                > (I just got my ticket and don't have a HF radio yet)
                > This person would be the domain specialist that would help
                > the programmers correctly simulate what it is like to be on
                > the air.
                >
                > Anybody else?
                >
                > Mark Z, ki6abr
                >
                >
                <snip/>
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