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Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA around the corner

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  • Fred Stevens K2FRD
    By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB. 73 de Fred
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
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      By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.

      73 de Fred

      At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
      >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
      >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
      >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.
      >
      >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
      >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
      > won't know what you are talking about.
      >
      >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
      >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
      >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
      >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
      >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
      >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
      >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
      >
      >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
      >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
      >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
      >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
      >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
      >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
      >
      >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
      >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
      >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
      >
      >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
      >
      >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
      >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
      >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
      >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
      >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
      >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
      >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
      >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
      >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
      >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
      >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
      >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
      >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
      >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
      >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
      >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
      >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
      >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.
      >>
      >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
      >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
      >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working
      >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
      >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
      >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
      >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
      >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
      >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
      >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
      >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
      >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
      >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
      >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
      >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
      >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
      >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
      >over.
      >>
      >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
      >>
      >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
      >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
      >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
      >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
      >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
      >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
      >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
      >badge.
    • Bill Stewart
      Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the exception not the rule. I m interested in the youngster successfully completing the merit
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
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        Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
        exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
        successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having some
        fun at the same time.

        73,

        Bill, W2BSA
        Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:

        > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
        > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
        >
        > 73 de Fred
        >
        > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
        > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
        > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
        > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.
        > >
        > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
        > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
        > > won't know what you are talking about.
        > >
        > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
        > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
        > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
        > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
        > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
        > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
        > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
        > >
        > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
        > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
        > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
        > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
        > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
        > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
        > >
        > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
        > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
        > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
        > >
        > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
        > >
        > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
        > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
        > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
        > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
        > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
        > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
        > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
        > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
        > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
        > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
        > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
        > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
        > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
        > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
        > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
        > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
        > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
        > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and
        > Eagle.
        > >>
        > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
        > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
        > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working
        > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
        > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
        > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
        > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
        > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
        > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
        > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
        > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
        > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
        > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
        > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
        > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
        > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
        > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
        > >over.
        > >>
        > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
        > >>
        > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
        > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
        > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
        > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
        > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
        > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
        > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
        > >badge.
        >
        >
        > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
        >
        > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
        > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
        >
        > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
        > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
        >
        > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
        > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
        >
        > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
        >
        > ScoutRadio start page:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
        > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
        >
        > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
        > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
        >
        > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        >
        > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
      • Alun
        So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most couldn t get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there s no logic in that. N3KIP ...
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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          So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
          couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
          that.

          N3KIP

          --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
          > Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
          > exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
          > successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
          some
          > fun at the same time.
          >
          > 73,
          >
          > Bill, W2BSA
          > Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
          >
          > > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
          > > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
          > >
          > > 73 de Fred
          > >
          > > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
          > > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
          > > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
          > > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
          phrased it.
          > > >
          > > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
          > > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then
          they
          > > > won't know what you are talking about.
          > > >
          > > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
          > > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but
          then I
          > > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no
          prior
          > > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate
          classes in
          > > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
          > > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
          > > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
          > > >
          > > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
          > > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
          > > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
          > > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
          > > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
          > > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
          > > >
          > > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
          > > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
          > > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
          > > >
          > > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
          > > >
          > > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD
          <k2frd@m...> wrote:
          > > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
          > > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
          > > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't
          say I
          > > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
          > > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout
          Camp
          > > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
          > > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
          > > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
          > > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
          > > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
          > > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
          > > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
          > > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
          > > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
          > > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
          > > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
          > > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and
          > > Eagle.
          > > >>
          > > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
          > > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
          > > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout
          working
          > > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
          > > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a
          particular
          > > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
          > > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
          > > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
          > > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
          > > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
          > > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
          > > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it
          may be
          > > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
          > > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
          > > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
          > > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger
          Scouts to
          > > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes
          glaze
          > > >over.
          > > >>
          > > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
          > > >>
          > > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
          > > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that
          aren't
          > > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
          > > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
          > > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a
          partial
          > > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off
          on the
          > > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take
          that
          > > >badge.
          > >
          > >
          > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
          > >
          > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
          > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
          > >
          > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
          > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
          > >
          > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
          > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
          > >
          > > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
          > >
          > > ScoutRadio start page:
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
          > > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
          > >
          > > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
          > > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
          > >
          > >
          > >
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          > >
          > > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
          > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
          > >
          > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
          > >
          > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
        • Fred Stevens K2FRD
          OK, I ll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and 11-year olds are not
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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            OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and 11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is found to be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.

            At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
            >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
            >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
            >that.
            >
            >N3KIP
            >
            >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
            >> Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
            >> exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
            >> successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
            >some
            >> fun at the same time.
            >>
            >> 73,
            >>
            >> Bill, W2BSA
            >> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
            >>
            >> > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
            >> > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
            >> >
            >> > 73 de Fred
            > > >
            >> > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
            >> > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
            >> > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
            >> > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
            >phrased it.
          • Roger Woods
            Hi All, I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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              Hi All,

              I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do
              about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
              teaching to the age group.

              I have had more trouble teaching some adults than some youngsters.

              Be flexible and tailor it to the participants. Whats more important the
              experience or the badge.

              Roger Woods
              G8XAN

              -----Original Message-----
              From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
              Sent: 02 October 2005 16:07
              To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA around the
              corner

              OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you
              gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and 11-year olds
              are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and
              11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most
              kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is found to
              be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.

              At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
              >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
              >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
              >that.
              >
              >N3KIP
              >
              >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
              >> Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
              >> exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
              >> successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
              >some
              >> fun at the same time.
              >>
              >> 73,
              >>
              >> Bill, W2BSA
              >> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
              >>
              >> > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
              >> > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
              >> >
              >> > 73 de Fred
              > > >
              >> > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
              >> > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
              >> > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
              >> > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
              >phrased it.



              Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

              Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
              to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

              Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
              http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

              Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
              http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

              Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/

              ScoutRadio start page:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email
              addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

              Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
              Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

              SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Bill Stewart
              Sorry, but I m speaking from experience not theory. I have taught licensing classes for several years and the norm has been that most under the age of 11 have
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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                Sorry, but I'm speaking from experience not theory. I have taught
                licensing classes for several years
                and the norm has been that most under the age of 11 have struggled if
                not downright failed It has
                discouraged most as well. There is no arguement here. I will continue to
                screen and discourage
                until they are older.

                73,

                Bill, W2BSA

                Alun wrote:

                > So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                > couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                > that.
                >
                > N3KIP
                >
                > --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
                > > Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
                > > exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
                > > successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
                > some
                > > fun at the same time.
                > >
                > > 73,
                > >
                > > Bill, W2BSA
                > > Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                > >
                > > > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
                > > > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                > > >
                > > > 73 de Fred
                > > >
                > > > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                > > > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                > > > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                > > > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                > phrased it.
                > > > >
                > > > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
                > > > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then
                > they
                > > > > won't know what you are talking about.
                > > > >
                > > > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
                > > > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but
                > then I
                > > > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no
                > prior
                > > > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate
                > classes in
                > > > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
                > > > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
                > > > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
                > > > >
                > > > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
                > > > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
                > > > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
                > > > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
                > > > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
                > > > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
                > > > >
                > > > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
                > > > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
                > > > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
                > > > >
                > > > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
                > > > >
                > > > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD
                > <k2frd@m...> wrote:
                > > > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
                > > > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
                > > > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't
                > say I
                > > > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
                > > > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout
                > Camp
                > > > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
                > > > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
                > > > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
                > > > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
                > > > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
                > > > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
                > > > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
                > > > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
                > > > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
                > > > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
                > > > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
                > > > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and
                > > > Eagle.
                > > > >>
                > > > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
                > > > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
                > > > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout
                > working
                > > > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
                > > > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a
                > particular
                > > > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
                > > > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
                > > > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
                > > > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
                > > > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
                > > > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
                > > > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it
                > may be
                > > > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
                > > > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
                > > > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
                > > > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger
                > Scouts to
                > > > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes
                > glaze
                > > > >over.
                > > > >>
                > > > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
                > > > >>
                > > > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                > > > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that
                > aren't
                > > > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
                > > > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
                > > > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a
                > partial
                > > > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off
                > on the
                > > > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take
                > that
                > > > >badge.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                > > >
                > > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                > > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                > > >
                > > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                > > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                > > >
                > > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                > > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                > > >
                > > > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                > > >
                > > > ScoutRadio start page:
                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                > > > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                > > >
                > > > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                > > >
                > > > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
                > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
                > > >
                > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                > > >
                > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                >
                > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                >
                > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                >
                > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                >
                > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                >
                > ScoutRadio start page:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                >
                > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                >
                >
                >
                > SPONSORED LINKS
                > Radio school
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+school&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=Qbeib4gbVnk0g7quBaR5qQ>
                > Radio module
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+module&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=F4KroXMj_acsKTFzn9TqOQ>
                > Radio telemetry
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+telemetry&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=EP_DR2s5OUWszy8ZqP8kAw>
                >
                > Radio advertising
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+advertising&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=efW-C1Utbf0Gxnf4MnjSVA>
                > Radio promotion
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+promotion&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=1aFw9R3Ffwi-X8ZnfstKgw>
                > Radio ads
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+ads&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=tBoMV1pXxwO3-eEdxx-QhQ>
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                >
                > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
                >
                > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                >
                > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >
              • Bill Stewart
                Actually, we do put as much effort into teaching the badge. We prefer to tailor it to success. We have to work around the US educational system and most kids
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Actually, we do put as much effort into teaching the badge. We prefer to
                  tailor it to success. We have to work around
                  the US educational system and most kids in the US are just not ready at
                  age 10 or 11. These are not required badges
                  so we want the youngsters to have fun and not have to struggle to attain
                  the badge.

                  Bill Stewart, W2BSA

                  Roger Woods wrote:

                  >
                  > Hi All,
                  >
                  > I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do
                  > about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
                  > teaching to the age group.
                  >
                  > I have had more trouble teaching some adults than some youngsters.
                  >
                  > Be flexible and tailor it to the participants. Whats more important the
                  > experience or the badge.
                  >
                  > Roger Woods
                  > G8XAN
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
                  > Sent: 02 October 2005 16:07
                  > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA
                  > around the
                  > corner
                  >
                  > OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you
                  > gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and
                  > 11-year olds
                  > are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and
                  > 11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most
                  > kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is
                  > found to
                  > be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.
                  >
                  > At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                  > >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                  > >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                  > >that.
                  > >
                  > >N3KIP
                  > >
                  > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
                  > >> Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
                  > >> exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
                  > >> successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
                  > >some
                  > >> fun at the same time.
                  > >>
                  > >> 73,
                  > >>
                  > >> Bill, W2BSA
                  > >> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
                  > >> > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                  > >> >
                  > >> > 73 de Fred
                  > > > >
                  > >> > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                  > >> > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                  > >> > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                  > >> > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                  > >phrased it.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                  >
                  > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
                  > to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                  >
                  > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                  > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                  >
                  > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                  > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                  >
                  > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                  >
                  > ScoutRadio start page:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email
                  > addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                  >
                  > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                  > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                  >
                  > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                  > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                  >
                  > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                  > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                  >
                  > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                  > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                  >
                  > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                  >
                  > ScoutRadio start page:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                  > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                  >
                  > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                  > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
                  >
                  > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                  >
                  > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                • Fred Stevens K2FRD
                  100% agree, Bill. Further, if BSA wanted 10- and 11-year olds to work on merit badges, then it would have included merit badges in the Tenderfoot, Second, and
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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                    100% agree, Bill. Further, if BSA wanted 10- and 11-year olds to work on merit badges, then it would have included merit badges in the Tenderfoot, Second, and First Class requirements. BSA actually tried this in the 70s and 80s and it didn't work.

                    73 de Fred K2FRD

                    At 15:38 -0400 02/10/2005, Bill Stewart wrote:
                    >Actually, we do put as much effort into teaching the badge. We prefer to
                    >tailor it to success. We have to work around
                    >the US educational system and most kids in the US are just not ready at
                    >age 10 or 11. These are not required badges
                    >so we want the youngsters to have fun and not have to struggle to attain
                    >the badge.
                    >
                    >Bill Stewart, W2BSA
                    >
                    >Roger Woods wrote:
                    >
                    >>
                    >> Hi All,
                    >>
                    >> I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do
                    >> about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
                    >> teaching to the age group.
                    >>
                    >> I have had more trouble teaching some adults than some youngsters.
                    >>
                    >> Be flexible and tailor it to the participants. Whats more important the
                    >> experience or the badge.
                    >>
                    >> Roger Woods
                    >> G8XAN
                    >>
                    >> -----Original Message-----
                    >> From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
                    >> Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
                    >> Sent: 02 October 2005 16:07
                    >> To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Subject: Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA
                    >> around the
                    >> corner
                    >>
                    >> OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you
                    >> gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and
                    >> 11-year olds
                    >> are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and
                    >> 11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most
                    >> kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is
                    >> found to
                    >> be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.
                    >>
                    >> At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                    >> >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                    >> >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                    >> >that.
                    >> >
                    > > >N3KIP
                  • Al Katzman
                    I think we ve missed the point of the Merit Badge program here. It s not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge. It s really about
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
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                      I think we've missed the point of the Merit Badge program here.  It's not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge.  It's really about teaching the scout an interest that may someday spark another interest in an avocation or vocation.  All the badges are designed to teach scouts a little bit about the subject to whet their appetite.  By screening the scout we are denying him that opportunity.  We aren't training genuises here.  We are giving the scout a bit of information about the subject.  Some badges they will like.  Some they will not.  But by all means let them be the judge of that.  Before one jumps on this note I said in the beginning mentally capable.  I realize there are some badges that the scout may not be physically capable of doing.  I don't think Radio MB is one of those.  We taught 11-17 year old scouts at the Jamboree and most all of them, regardless of the age, learned something about the subject.  And that is the real purpose of the program.

                      Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                      By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.

                      73 de Fred

                      At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                      >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                      >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                      >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.
                      >
                      >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
                      >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
                      > won't know what you are talking about.
                      >
                      >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
                      >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
                      >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
                      >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
                      >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
                      >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
                      >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
                      >
                      >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
                      >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
                      >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
                      >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
                      >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
                      >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
                      >
                      >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
                      >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
                      >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
                      >
                      >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK    
                      >
                      >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
                      >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
                      >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
                      >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
                      >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
                      >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
                      >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
                      >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
                      >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
                      >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
                      >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
                      >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
                      >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
                      >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
                      >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
                      >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
                      >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
                      >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.
                      >>
                      >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
                      >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
                      >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working
                      >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
                      >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
                      >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
                      >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
                      >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
                      >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
                      >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
                      >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
                      >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
                      >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
                      >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
                      >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
                      >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
                      >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
                      >over.
                      >>
                      >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
                      >>
                      >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                      >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
                      >in the book and against BSA policy.  Better watch out on that.  Might
                      >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point.  It's
                      >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
                      >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
                      >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
                      >badge.


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                    • Bill Stewart
                      The merit badge program is to be started after attaining the First Class rank usually completed by age 12. In the Troop I was involved with we did not allow
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
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                        The merit badge program is to be started after attaining the First Class
                        rank usually completed by age 12.
                        In the Troop I was involved with we did not allow youth to do merit
                        badges until after they completed the New Scout program.
                        The New Scout program got them to First Class. At Scout Camp we had them
                        do some of the simpler merit badges that were usually in the handicraft
                        area.
                        After completion of the New Scout program they were allowed to take what
                        ever they wanted to with guidence from the Scoutmaster and Assistant
                        Scoutmasters.
                        So, no I don't think we have missed the point. The merit badges we are
                        talking about are not required. So, we don't want the Scouts to struggle
                        through them.
                        We want them to have fun with them and, oh by the way they might learn
                        something, too.

                        Al Katzman wrote:

                        > I think we've missed the point of the Merit Badge program here. It's
                        > not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge.
                        > It's really about teaching the scout an interest that may someday
                        > spark another interest in an avocation or vocation. All the badges
                        > are designed to teach scouts a little bit about the subject to whet
                        > their appetite. By screening the scout we are denying him that
                        > opportunity. We aren't training genuises here. We are giving the
                        > scout a bit of information about the subject. Some badges they will
                        > like. Some they will not. But by all means let them be the judge of
                        > that. Before one jumps on this note I said in the beginning mentally
                        > capable. I realize there are some badges that the scout may not be
                        > physically capable of doing. I don't think Radio MB is one of those.
                        > We taught 11-17 year old scouts at the Jamboree and most all of them,
                        > regardless of the age, learned something about the subject. And that
                        > is the real purpose of the program.
                        >
                        > */Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>/* wrote:
                        >
                        > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10-
                        > and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                        >
                        > 73 de Fred
                        >
                        > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                        > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                        > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                        > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                        > phrased it.
                        > >
                        > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
                        > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then
                        > they
                        > > won't know what you are talking about.
                        > >
                        > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
                        > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but
                        > then I
                        > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no
                        > prior
                        > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate
                        > classes in
                        > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
                        > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
                        > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
                        > >
                        > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
                        > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
                        > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
                        > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
                        > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
                        > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
                        > >
                        > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
                        > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
                        > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
                        > >
                        > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
                        > >
                        > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD
                        > <k2frd@m...> wrote:
                        > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
                        > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
                        > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't
                        > say I
                        > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
                        > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout
                        > Camp
                        > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
                        > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
                        > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
                        > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
                        > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
                        > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
                        > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
                        > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
                        > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
                        > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
                        > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
                        > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life,
                        > and Eagle.
                        > >>
                        > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
                        > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
                        > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout
                        > working
                        > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
                        > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a
                        > particular
                        > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
                        > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
                        > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
                        > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
                        > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
                        > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
                        > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it
                        > may be
                        > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
                        > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
                        > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
                        > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger
                        > Scouts to
                        > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes
                        > glaze
                        > >over.
                        > >>
                        > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
                        > >>
                        > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                        > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that
                        > aren't
                        > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
                        > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
                        > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a
                        > partial
                        > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off
                        > on the
                        > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take
                        > that
                        > >badge.
                        >
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                      • kimbare
                        I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA around the corner I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all  special ed.....
                          I do the radio merit badge all the time..I cover all the  requirements   and have never had anyone, by the time I was done  not under stand or “pass”...I also do the girl scouts....which I AM  allowed to add to the requirements since that 1 is just a patch program....

                          I have after all is said and done some scouts look for me  and sit in on occasions even after they have passed...and some have gotten their liscense...
                          Merit badges are @ wetting their appitite in areas they would maybe never have tried

                          The requirements are not hard but then again I am a teacher and a mom and deal with special ed ...I do a lot of fill in info and start out with  its use, mon bouce and sky bounce with loads of super balls to help demo ,etc...well any way the point is I believe it is in thepresentation...and yes some is supposed to be done ahead of time, but It is just as easy to present it and question them to make sure that they under stand it as it is to just make sure the requirements are done

                          For every merit badge  counsellor out there, there will always be an opinion but this is just the way I do it....

                          ky2mmm
                        • Fred Stevens K2FRD
                          I think we have all had different experiences while teaching Radio Merit Badge. I ve been teaching it since before 1998, always in a group setting (4 to 10)
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
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                            I think we have all had different experiences while teaching Radio Merit Badge. I've been teaching it since before 1998, always in a group setting (4 to 10) rather than just a couple Scouts. There's certainly more flexibility with only a couple since if more in-depth instruction/explanation is needed, the time can be taken to teach it while with a larger group, an instructor would lose a number of the older more advanced Scouts in a class if s/he had to take one or two sessions to explain the basic nature of electricity (i.e., where the electrons come from, where they go, how they get there, all this before 110vac, 60 HZ leads into frequency) to a Scout who either through lack of conceptual ability or educational background needs to start from scratch (e.g., has no idea how household electricity works). Especially in a Scout camp setting where the instructor is given five 1.5-hr sessions and no more, this detailed approach will not work since there isn't enough time.

                            The original question on this thread centered around learning problems of younger Scouts who could not grasp the abstract concept of electricity. Those who could not had to be spoon-fed the information without truly understanding how electricity works and, by inference and in succession, how frequency and radiowave propagation works. At some point, a Radio MB counsellor must decide (1) if the Scout actually understands the requirements and can actually do them or (2) if the Scout must merely feed back to the instructor what the instructor has said to secure the merit badge without understanding and thus be awarded the merit badge without really learning anything or (3) if the Scout should wait a year or two before undertaking the merit badge and securing some understanding from it. Personally, I prefer not to sign off on Radio MB (or any other MB I instruct) until I am assured that a Scout understands what the merit badge is about and has actually completed the requirements rather than just regurgitated verbatim back to me what I said.

                            Again, the merit badge program was designed for Scouts who have already completed First Class rank, vis a vis 12-yr olds and older. It is not designed for new Scouts who have not yet completed Second nor First Class. There are always exceptions and exceptional entry-level Scouts who would be able to successfully and meaningfully complete Radio MB at any time; some probably could have done it as Tiger Cubs. These are future Eagle Scouts.

                            73 and YIS de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS

                            At 16:54 -0400 03/10/2005, kimbare wrote:
                            >I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all special ed.....
                            >I do the radio merit badge all the time..I cover all the requirements and have never had anyone, by the time I was done not under stand or "pass"...I also do the girl scouts....which I AM allowed to add to the requirements since that 1 is just a patch program....
                            >
                            >I have after all is said and done some scouts look for me and sit in on occasions even after they have passed...and some have gotten their liscense...
                            >Merit badges are @ wetting their appitite in areas they would maybe never have tried
                            >
                            >The requirements are not hard but then again I am a teacher and a mom and deal with special ed ...I do a lot of fill in info and start out with its use, mon bouce and sky bounce with loads of super balls to help demo ,etc...well any way the point is I believe it is in thepresentation...and yes some is supposed to be done ahead of time, but It is just as easy to present it and question them to make sure that they under stand it as it is to just make sure the requirements are done
                            >
                            >For every merit badge counsellor out there, there will always be an opinion but this is just the way I do it....
                            >
                            >ky2mmm

                            --
                            73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
                            http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
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