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Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA around the corner

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  • Fred Stevens K2FRD
    No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before taking certain merit
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
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      No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second, and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.

      Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level, particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most 11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household 110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze over.

      73 de Fred K2FRD

      At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
      >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that badge.

      --
      73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
      http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
      Free Subscription To OCARG EAGLE, a newsletter for ham radio Scouters
      http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm for info.
    • Alun
      Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences, and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can t agree with what you are
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
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        Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
        and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
        with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.

        If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
        the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
        won't know what you are talking about.

        My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
        for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
        took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
        knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
        specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
        one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
        genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.

        It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
        scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
        then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
        school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
        incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
        anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.

        Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
        a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
        who forgot all their physics a long time ago.

        73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK

        --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
        > No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
        BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
        taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
        know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
        determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
        setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
        specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
        younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
        and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
        there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
        Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
        unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
        Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
        longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
        exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
        badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
        advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.
        >
        > Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
        particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
        first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working
        on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
        hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
        merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
        11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
        old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
        Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
        not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
        spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
        even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
        even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
        Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
        110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
        start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
        whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
        over.
        >
        > 73 de Fred K2FRD
        >
        > At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
        > >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
        in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
        get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
        better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
        than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
        badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
        badge.
        >
        > --
        > 73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
        > http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
        > Free Subscription To OCARG EAGLE, a newsletter for ham radio Scouters
        > http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm for info.
      • Fred Stevens K2FRD
        By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB. 73 de Fred
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
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          By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.

          73 de Fred

          At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
          >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
          >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
          >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.
          >
          >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
          >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
          > won't know what you are talking about.
          >
          >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
          >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
          >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
          >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
          >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
          >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
          >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
          >
          >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
          >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
          >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
          >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
          >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
          >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
          >
          >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
          >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
          >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
          >
          >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
          >
          >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
          >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
          >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
          >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
          >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
          >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
          >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
          >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
          >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
          >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
          >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
          >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
          >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
          >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
          >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
          >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
          >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
          >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.
          >>
          >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
          >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
          >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working
          >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
          >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
          >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
          >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
          >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
          >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
          >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
          >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
          >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
          >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
          >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
          >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
          >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
          >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
          >over.
          >>
          >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
          >>
          >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
          >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
          >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
          >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
          >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
          >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
          >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
          >badge.
        • Bill Stewart
          Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the exception not the rule. I m interested in the youngster successfully completing the merit
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
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            Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
            exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
            successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having some
            fun at the same time.

            73,

            Bill, W2BSA
            Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:

            > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
            > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
            >
            > 73 de Fred
            >
            > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
            > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
            > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
            > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.
            > >
            > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
            > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
            > > won't know what you are talking about.
            > >
            > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
            > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
            > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
            > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
            > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
            > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
            > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
            > >
            > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
            > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
            > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
            > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
            > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
            > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
            > >
            > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
            > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
            > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
            > >
            > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
            > >
            > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
            > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
            > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
            > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
            > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
            > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
            > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
            > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
            > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
            > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
            > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
            > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
            > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
            > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
            > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
            > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
            > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
            > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and
            > Eagle.
            > >>
            > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
            > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
            > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working
            > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
            > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
            > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
            > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
            > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
            > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
            > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
            > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
            > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
            > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
            > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
            > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
            > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
            > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
            > >over.
            > >>
            > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
            > >>
            > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
            > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
            > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
            > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
            > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
            > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
            > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
            > >badge.
            >
            >
            > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
            >
            > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
            > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
            >
            > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
            > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
            >
            > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
            > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
            >
            > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
            >
            > ScoutRadio start page:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
            > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
            >
            > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
            > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
            >
            > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
            >
            > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
          • Alun
            So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most couldn t get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there s no logic in that. N3KIP ...
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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              So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
              couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
              that.

              N3KIP

              --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
              > Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
              > exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
              > successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
              some
              > fun at the same time.
              >
              > 73,
              >
              > Bill, W2BSA
              > Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
              >
              > > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
              > > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
              > >
              > > 73 de Fred
              > >
              > > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
              > > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
              > > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
              > > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
              phrased it.
              > > >
              > > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
              > > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then
              they
              > > > won't know what you are talking about.
              > > >
              > > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
              > > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but
              then I
              > > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no
              prior
              > > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate
              classes in
              > > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
              > > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
              > > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
              > > >
              > > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
              > > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
              > > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
              > > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
              > > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
              > > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
              > > >
              > > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
              > > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
              > > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
              > > >
              > > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
              > > >
              > > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD
              <k2frd@m...> wrote:
              > > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
              > > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
              > > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't
              say I
              > > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
              > > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout
              Camp
              > > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
              > > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
              > > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
              > > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
              > > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
              > > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
              > > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
              > > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
              > > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
              > > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
              > > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
              > > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and
              > > Eagle.
              > > >>
              > > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
              > > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
              > > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout
              working
              > > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
              > > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a
              particular
              > > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
              > > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
              > > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
              > > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
              > > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
              > > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
              > > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it
              may be
              > > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
              > > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
              > > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
              > > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger
              Scouts to
              > > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes
              glaze
              > > >over.
              > > >>
              > > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
              > > >>
              > > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
              > > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that
              aren't
              > > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
              > > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
              > > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a
              partial
              > > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off
              on the
              > > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take
              that
              > > >badge.
              > >
              > >
              > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
              > >
              > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
              > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
              > >
              > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
              > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
              > >
              > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
              > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
              > >
              > > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
              > >
              > > ScoutRadio start page:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
              > > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
              > >
              > > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
              > > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
              > >
              > >
              > >
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              > >
              > > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
              > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
              > >
              > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
              > >
              > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > >
            • Fred Stevens K2FRD
              OK, I ll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and 11-year olds are not
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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                OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and 11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is found to be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.

                At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                >that.
                >
                >N3KIP
                >
                >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
                >> Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
                >> exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
                >> successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
                >some
                >> fun at the same time.
                >>
                >> 73,
                >>
                >> Bill, W2BSA
                >> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                >>
                >> > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
                >> > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                >> >
                >> > 73 de Fred
                > > >
                >> > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                >> > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                >> > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                >> > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                >phrased it.
              • Roger Woods
                Hi All, I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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                  Hi All,

                  I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do
                  about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
                  teaching to the age group.

                  I have had more trouble teaching some adults than some youngsters.

                  Be flexible and tailor it to the participants. Whats more important the
                  experience or the badge.

                  Roger Woods
                  G8XAN

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
                  Sent: 02 October 2005 16:07
                  To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA around the
                  corner

                  OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you
                  gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and 11-year olds
                  are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and
                  11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most
                  kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is found to
                  be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.

                  At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                  >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                  >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                  >that.
                  >
                  >N3KIP
                  >
                  >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
                  >> Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
                  >> exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
                  >> successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
                  >some
                  >> fun at the same time.
                  >>
                  >> 73,
                  >>
                  >> Bill, W2BSA
                  >> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                  >>
                  >> > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
                  >> > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                  >> >
                  >> > 73 de Fred
                  > > >
                  >> > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                  >> > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                  >> > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                  >> > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                  >phrased it.



                  Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                  Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
                  to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                  Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                  http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                  Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                  http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                  Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                  ScoutRadio start page:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email
                  addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                  Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                  Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

                  SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Bill Stewart
                  Sorry, but I m speaking from experience not theory. I have taught licensing classes for several years and the norm has been that most under the age of 11 have
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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                    Sorry, but I'm speaking from experience not theory. I have taught
                    licensing classes for several years
                    and the norm has been that most under the age of 11 have struggled if
                    not downright failed It has
                    discouraged most as well. There is no arguement here. I will continue to
                    screen and discourage
                    until they are older.

                    73,

                    Bill, W2BSA

                    Alun wrote:

                    > So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                    > couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                    > that.
                    >
                    > N3KIP
                    >
                    > --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
                    > > Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
                    > > exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
                    > > successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
                    > some
                    > > fun at the same time.
                    > >
                    > > 73,
                    > >
                    > > Bill, W2BSA
                    > > Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
                    > > > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                    > > >
                    > > > 73 de Fred
                    > > >
                    > > > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                    > > > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                    > > > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                    > > > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                    > phrased it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
                    > > > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then
                    > they
                    > > > > won't know what you are talking about.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
                    > > > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but
                    > then I
                    > > > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no
                    > prior
                    > > > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate
                    > classes in
                    > > > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
                    > > > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
                    > > > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
                    > > > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
                    > > > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
                    > > > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
                    > > > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
                    > > > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
                    > > > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
                    > > > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
                    > > > >
                    > > > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD
                    > <k2frd@m...> wrote:
                    > > > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
                    > > > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
                    > > > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't
                    > say I
                    > > > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
                    > > > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout
                    > Camp
                    > > > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
                    > > > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
                    > > > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
                    > > > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
                    > > > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
                    > > > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
                    > > > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
                    > > > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
                    > > > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
                    > > > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
                    > > > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
                    > > > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and
                    > > > Eagle.
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
                    > > > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
                    > > > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout
                    > working
                    > > > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
                    > > > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a
                    > particular
                    > > > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
                    > > > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
                    > > > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
                    > > > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
                    > > > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
                    > > > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
                    > > > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it
                    > may be
                    > > > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
                    > > > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
                    > > > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
                    > > > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger
                    > Scouts to
                    > > > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes
                    > glaze
                    > > > >over.
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                    > > > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that
                    > aren't
                    > > > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
                    > > > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
                    > > > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a
                    > partial
                    > > > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off
                    > on the
                    > > > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take
                    > that
                    > > > >badge.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                    > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                    > > >
                    > > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                    > > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                    > > >
                    > > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                    > > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                    > > >
                    > > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                    > > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                    > > >
                    > > > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                    > > >
                    > > > ScoutRadio start page:
                    > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                    > > > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                    > > >
                    > > > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    > > >
                    > > > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
                    > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
                    > > >
                    > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                    > > >
                    > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                    >
                    > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                    > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                    >
                    > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                    > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                    >
                    > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                    > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                    >
                    > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                    >
                    > ScoutRadio start page:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                    > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                    >
                    > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                    > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > SPONSORED LINKS
                    > Radio school
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+school&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=Qbeib4gbVnk0g7quBaR5qQ>
                    > Radio module
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+module&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=F4KroXMj_acsKTFzn9TqOQ>
                    > Radio telemetry
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+telemetry&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=EP_DR2s5OUWszy8ZqP8kAw>
                    >
                    > Radio advertising
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+advertising&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=efW-C1Utbf0Gxnf4MnjSVA>
                    > Radio promotion
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+promotion&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=1aFw9R3Ffwi-X8ZnfstKgw>
                    > Radio ads
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+ads&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=tBoMV1pXxwO3-eEdxx-QhQ>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
                    > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
                    >
                    > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                    >
                    > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                  • Bill Stewart
                    Actually, we do put as much effort into teaching the badge. We prefer to tailor it to success. We have to work around the US educational system and most kids
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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                      Actually, we do put as much effort into teaching the badge. We prefer to
                      tailor it to success. We have to work around
                      the US educational system and most kids in the US are just not ready at
                      age 10 or 11. These are not required badges
                      so we want the youngsters to have fun and not have to struggle to attain
                      the badge.

                      Bill Stewart, W2BSA

                      Roger Woods wrote:

                      >
                      > Hi All,
                      >
                      > I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do
                      > about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
                      > teaching to the age group.
                      >
                      > I have had more trouble teaching some adults than some youngsters.
                      >
                      > Be flexible and tailor it to the participants. Whats more important the
                      > experience or the badge.
                      >
                      > Roger Woods
                      > G8XAN
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
                      > Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
                      > Sent: 02 October 2005 16:07
                      > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA
                      > around the
                      > corner
                      >
                      > OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you
                      > gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and
                      > 11-year olds
                      > are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and
                      > 11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most
                      > kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is
                      > found to
                      > be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.
                      >
                      > At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                      > >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                      > >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                      > >that.
                      > >
                      > >N3KIP
                      > >
                      > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
                      > >> Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
                      > >> exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
                      > >> successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
                      > >some
                      > >> fun at the same time.
                      > >>
                      > >> 73,
                      > >>
                      > >> Bill, W2BSA
                      > >> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >> > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
                      > >> > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                      > >> >
                      > >> > 73 de Fred
                      > > > >
                      > >> > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                      > >> > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                      > >> > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                      > >> > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                      > >phrased it.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                      >
                      > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
                      > to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                      >
                      > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                      > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                      >
                      > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                      > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                      >
                      > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                      >
                      > ScoutRadio start page:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email
                      > addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                      >
                      > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                      > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                      >
                      > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                      > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                      >
                      > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                      > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                      >
                      > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                      > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                      >
                      > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                      >
                      > ScoutRadio start page:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                      > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                      >
                      > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                      > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                      >
                      > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
                      >
                      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                      >
                      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                    • Fred Stevens K2FRD
                      100% agree, Bill. Further, if BSA wanted 10- and 11-year olds to work on merit badges, then it would have included merit badges in the Tenderfoot, Second, and
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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                        100% agree, Bill. Further, if BSA wanted 10- and 11-year olds to work on merit badges, then it would have included merit badges in the Tenderfoot, Second, and First Class requirements. BSA actually tried this in the 70s and 80s and it didn't work.

                        73 de Fred K2FRD

                        At 15:38 -0400 02/10/2005, Bill Stewart wrote:
                        >Actually, we do put as much effort into teaching the badge. We prefer to
                        >tailor it to success. We have to work around
                        >the US educational system and most kids in the US are just not ready at
                        >age 10 or 11. These are not required badges
                        >so we want the youngsters to have fun and not have to struggle to attain
                        >the badge.
                        >
                        >Bill Stewart, W2BSA
                        >
                        >Roger Woods wrote:
                        >
                        >>
                        >> Hi All,
                        >>
                        >> I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do
                        >> about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
                        >> teaching to the age group.
                        >>
                        >> I have had more trouble teaching some adults than some youngsters.
                        >>
                        >> Be flexible and tailor it to the participants. Whats more important the
                        >> experience or the badge.
                        >>
                        >> Roger Woods
                        >> G8XAN
                        >>
                        >> -----Original Message-----
                        >> From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
                        >> Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
                        >> Sent: 02 October 2005 16:07
                        >> To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                        >> Subject: Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA
                        >> around the
                        >> corner
                        >>
                        >> OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you
                        >> gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and
                        >> 11-year olds
                        >> are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and
                        >> 11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most
                        >> kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is
                        >> found to
                        >> be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.
                        >>
                        >> At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                        >> >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                        >> >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                        >> >that.
                        >> >
                        > > >N3KIP
                      • Al Katzman
                        I think we ve missed the point of the Merit Badge program here. It s not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge. It s really about
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
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                          I think we've missed the point of the Merit Badge program here.  It's not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge.  It's really about teaching the scout an interest that may someday spark another interest in an avocation or vocation.  All the badges are designed to teach scouts a little bit about the subject to whet their appetite.  By screening the scout we are denying him that opportunity.  We aren't training genuises here.  We are giving the scout a bit of information about the subject.  Some badges they will like.  Some they will not.  But by all means let them be the judge of that.  Before one jumps on this note I said in the beginning mentally capable.  I realize there are some badges that the scout may not be physically capable of doing.  I don't think Radio MB is one of those.  We taught 11-17 year old scouts at the Jamboree and most all of them, regardless of the age, learned something about the subject.  And that is the real purpose of the program.

                          Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                          By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.

                          73 de Fred

                          At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                          >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                          >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                          >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.
                          >
                          >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
                          >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
                          > won't know what you are talking about.
                          >
                          >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
                          >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
                          >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
                          >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
                          >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
                          >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
                          >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
                          >
                          >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
                          >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
                          >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
                          >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
                          >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
                          >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
                          >
                          >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
                          >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
                          >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
                          >
                          >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK    
                          >
                          >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
                          >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
                          >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
                          >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
                          >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
                          >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
                          >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
                          >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
                          >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
                          >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
                          >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
                          >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
                          >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
                          >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
                          >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
                          >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
                          >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
                          >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.
                          >>
                          >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
                          >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
                          >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working
                          >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
                          >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
                          >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
                          >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
                          >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
                          >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
                          >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
                          >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
                          >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
                          >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
                          >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
                          >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
                          >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
                          >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
                          >over.
                          >>
                          >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
                          >>
                          >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                          >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
                          >in the book and against BSA policy.  Better watch out on that.  Might
                          >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point.  It's
                          >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
                          >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
                          >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
                          >badge.


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                        • Bill Stewart
                          The merit badge program is to be started after attaining the First Class rank usually completed by age 12. In the Troop I was involved with we did not allow
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
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                            The merit badge program is to be started after attaining the First Class
                            rank usually completed by age 12.
                            In the Troop I was involved with we did not allow youth to do merit
                            badges until after they completed the New Scout program.
                            The New Scout program got them to First Class. At Scout Camp we had them
                            do some of the simpler merit badges that were usually in the handicraft
                            area.
                            After completion of the New Scout program they were allowed to take what
                            ever they wanted to with guidence from the Scoutmaster and Assistant
                            Scoutmasters.
                            So, no I don't think we have missed the point. The merit badges we are
                            talking about are not required. So, we don't want the Scouts to struggle
                            through them.
                            We want them to have fun with them and, oh by the way they might learn
                            something, too.

                            Al Katzman wrote:

                            > I think we've missed the point of the Merit Badge program here. It's
                            > not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge.
                            > It's really about teaching the scout an interest that may someday
                            > spark another interest in an avocation or vocation. All the badges
                            > are designed to teach scouts a little bit about the subject to whet
                            > their appetite. By screening the scout we are denying him that
                            > opportunity. We aren't training genuises here. We are giving the
                            > scout a bit of information about the subject. Some badges they will
                            > like. Some they will not. But by all means let them be the judge of
                            > that. Before one jumps on this note I said in the beginning mentally
                            > capable. I realize there are some badges that the scout may not be
                            > physically capable of doing. I don't think Radio MB is one of those.
                            > We taught 11-17 year old scouts at the Jamboree and most all of them,
                            > regardless of the age, learned something about the subject. And that
                            > is the real purpose of the program.
                            >
                            > */Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>/* wrote:
                            >
                            > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10-
                            > and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                            >
                            > 73 de Fred
                            >
                            > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                            > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                            > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                            > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                            > phrased it.
                            > >
                            > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
                            > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then
                            > they
                            > > won't know what you are talking about.
                            > >
                            > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
                            > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but
                            > then I
                            > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no
                            > prior
                            > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate
                            > classes in
                            > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
                            > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
                            > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
                            > >
                            > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
                            > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
                            > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
                            > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
                            > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
                            > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
                            > >
                            > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
                            > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
                            > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
                            > >
                            > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
                            > >
                            > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD
                            > <k2frd@m...> wrote:
                            > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
                            > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
                            > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't
                            > say I
                            > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
                            > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout
                            > Camp
                            > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
                            > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
                            > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
                            > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
                            > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
                            > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
                            > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
                            > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
                            > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
                            > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
                            > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
                            > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life,
                            > and Eagle.
                            > >>
                            > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
                            > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
                            > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout
                            > working
                            > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
                            > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a
                            > particular
                            > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
                            > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
                            > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
                            > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
                            > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
                            > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
                            > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it
                            > may be
                            > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
                            > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
                            > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
                            > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger
                            > Scouts to
                            > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes
                            > glaze
                            > >over.
                            > >>
                            > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
                            > >>
                            > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                            > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that
                            > aren't
                            > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
                            > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
                            > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a
                            > partial
                            > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off
                            > on the
                            > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take
                            > that
                            > >badge.
                            >
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                          • kimbare
                            I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
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                              Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA around the corner I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all  special ed.....
                              I do the radio merit badge all the time..I cover all the  requirements   and have never had anyone, by the time I was done  not under stand or “pass”...I also do the girl scouts....which I AM  allowed to add to the requirements since that 1 is just a patch program....

                              I have after all is said and done some scouts look for me  and sit in on occasions even after they have passed...and some have gotten their liscense...
                              Merit badges are @ wetting their appitite in areas they would maybe never have tried

                              The requirements are not hard but then again I am a teacher and a mom and deal with special ed ...I do a lot of fill in info and start out with  its use, mon bouce and sky bounce with loads of super balls to help demo ,etc...well any way the point is I believe it is in thepresentation...and yes some is supposed to be done ahead of time, but It is just as easy to present it and question them to make sure that they under stand it as it is to just make sure the requirements are done

                              For every merit badge  counsellor out there, there will always be an opinion but this is just the way I do it....

                              ky2mmm
                            • Fred Stevens K2FRD
                              I think we have all had different experiences while teaching Radio Merit Badge. I ve been teaching it since before 1998, always in a group setting (4 to 10)
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
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                                I think we have all had different experiences while teaching Radio Merit Badge. I've been teaching it since before 1998, always in a group setting (4 to 10) rather than just a couple Scouts. There's certainly more flexibility with only a couple since if more in-depth instruction/explanation is needed, the time can be taken to teach it while with a larger group, an instructor would lose a number of the older more advanced Scouts in a class if s/he had to take one or two sessions to explain the basic nature of electricity (i.e., where the electrons come from, where they go, how they get there, all this before 110vac, 60 HZ leads into frequency) to a Scout who either through lack of conceptual ability or educational background needs to start from scratch (e.g., has no idea how household electricity works). Especially in a Scout camp setting where the instructor is given five 1.5-hr sessions and no more, this detailed approach will not work since there isn't enough time.

                                The original question on this thread centered around learning problems of younger Scouts who could not grasp the abstract concept of electricity. Those who could not had to be spoon-fed the information without truly understanding how electricity works and, by inference and in succession, how frequency and radiowave propagation works. At some point, a Radio MB counsellor must decide (1) if the Scout actually understands the requirements and can actually do them or (2) if the Scout must merely feed back to the instructor what the instructor has said to secure the merit badge without understanding and thus be awarded the merit badge without really learning anything or (3) if the Scout should wait a year or two before undertaking the merit badge and securing some understanding from it. Personally, I prefer not to sign off on Radio MB (or any other MB I instruct) until I am assured that a Scout understands what the merit badge is about and has actually completed the requirements rather than just regurgitated verbatim back to me what I said.

                                Again, the merit badge program was designed for Scouts who have already completed First Class rank, vis a vis 12-yr olds and older. It is not designed for new Scouts who have not yet completed Second nor First Class. There are always exceptions and exceptional entry-level Scouts who would be able to successfully and meaningfully complete Radio MB at any time; some probably could have done it as Tiger Cubs. These are future Eagle Scouts.

                                73 and YIS de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS

                                At 16:54 -0400 03/10/2005, kimbare wrote:
                                >I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all special ed.....
                                >I do the radio merit badge all the time..I cover all the requirements and have never had anyone, by the time I was done not under stand or "pass"...I also do the girl scouts....which I AM allowed to add to the requirements since that 1 is just a patch program....
                                >
                                >I have after all is said and done some scouts look for me and sit in on occasions even after they have passed...and some have gotten their liscense...
                                >Merit badges are @ wetting their appitite in areas they would maybe never have tried
                                >
                                >The requirements are not hard but then again I am a teacher and a mom and deal with special ed ...I do a lot of fill in info and start out with its use, mon bouce and sky bounce with loads of super balls to help demo ,etc...well any way the point is I believe it is in thepresentation...and yes some is supposed to be done ahead of time, but It is just as easy to present it and question them to make sure that they under stand it as it is to just make sure the requirements are done
                                >
                                >For every merit badge counsellor out there, there will always be an opinion but this is just the way I do it....
                                >
                                >ky2mmm

                                --
                                73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
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