## JOTA around the corner

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• . I ask the Scouts to prepare several ... I genereally have the Scouts make a radio spectrum chart in advance by using the one in the pamphlet as a guide. Then
Message 1 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
. I ask the Scouts to prepare several
> requirments
> before JOTA and I don't know how to go about getting them familiar
> with the spectrum requirment. I usually do this during the class
> but
> the Scout can't seem to grasp its idea. I end up hand feeding the
> material to each scout. In my normal class of ten half are very
> young scout with the other half a bit older but they all have
> trouble.
>
> Anyone encounter this problem and any suggestions to break this
> material down to a more easily digestable state for younger scouts?

I genereally have the Scouts make a radio spectrum chart in advance by using the one in the pamphlet as a guide.

Then when we discuss it, I use the analogy of the visible light spectrum with all of the different colors actually being different frequencies of light. If you had goggles of one color you could only see that one color. A radio receiver is like those goggles, except you get to select color your're seeing with the tuning control.

Further suggestions are welcome.

73

Gary, K2GW
• I show the walkie talkies on different frequencys with different size antennas and sjow them where FM radio and cell phones and CB are located. I mix the
Message 2 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
I show the walkie talkies on different frequencys with
different size antennas and sjow them where FM radio
and cell phones and CB are located.

I mix the radios up and have them line them up in
order.

--- k2gw@... wrote:

> . I ask the Scouts to prepare several
> > requirments
> > before JOTA and I don't know how to go about
> getting them familiar
> > with the spectrum requirment. I usually do this
> during the class
> > but
> > the Scout can't seem to grasp its idea. I end up
> hand feeding the
> > material to each scout. In my normal class of ten
> half are very
> > young scout with the other half a bit older but
> they all have
> > trouble.
> >
> > Anyone encounter this problem and any suggestions
> to break this
> > material down to a more easily digestable state
> for younger scouts?
>
> I genereally have the Scouts make a radio spectrum
> chart in advance by using the one in the pamphlet as
> a guide.
>
> Then when we discuss it, I use the analogy of the
> visible light spectrum with all of the different
> colors actually being different frequencies of
> light. If you had goggles of one color you could
> those goggles, except you get to select color
> your're seeing with the tuning control.
>
> Further suggestions are welcome.
>
> 73
>
> Gary, K2GW
>

__________________________________
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• Alan, I ve also experienced cognitive problems with younger Scouts who are trying to take Radio MB. Radio MB (along with Computers, Electronics and other
Message 3 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
Alan, I've also experienced cognitive problems with younger Scouts who are trying to take Radio MB. Radio MB (along with Computers, Electronics and other "advanced" merit badges) covers concepts which are just too abstract for 10.5 to 12-year olds (finished 4th through 6th grades). I even had problems this past summer with Space Exploration: many, many younger Scouts just could not grasp the notion that space is a vacuum and that one cannot set up a windmill generator on the Moon.

73 and YIS de Fred K2FRD

At 6:21 +0000 28/09/2005, Alan Stumpf wrote:
>I am beginning to prepare my Radio Merit Badge things for the class
>I offer during JOTA. I ask the Scouts to prepare several requirments
>before JOTA and I don't know how to go about getting them familiar
>with the spectrum requirment. I usually do this during the class but
>the Scout can't seem to grasp its idea. I end up hand feeding the
>material to each scout. In my normal class of ten half are very
>young scout with the other half a bit older but they all have
>trouble.
>
>Anyone encounter this problem and any suggestions to break this
>material down to a more easily digestable state for younger scouts?
>
>Also does anyone have web references to some of the stated items in
>the MB that is Scout friendly? Like its made for 6-9 graders in mind?

--
73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm for info.
• Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren t in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might get into a bit of
Message 4 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't in the book and against BSA policy.  Better watch out on that.  Might get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point.  It's better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that badge.

Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
Alan, I've also experienced cognitive problems with younger Scouts who are trying to take Radio MB. Radio MB (along with Computers, Electronics and other "advanced" merit badges) covers concepts which are just too abstract for 10.5 to 12-year olds (finished 4th through 6th grades). I even had problems this past summer with Space Exploration: many, many younger Scouts just could not grasp the notion that space is a vacuum and that one cannot set up a windmill generator on the Moon.

73 and YIS de Fred K2FRD

At 6:21 +0000 28/09/2005, Alan Stumpf wrote:
>I am beginning to prepare my Radio Merit Badge things for the class
>I offer during JOTA. I ask the Scouts to prepare several requirments
>before JOTA and I don't know how to go about getting them familiar
>with the spectrum requirment. I usually do this during the class but
>the Scout can't seem to grasp its idea. I end up hand feeding the
>material to each scout. In my normal class of ten half are very
>young scout with the other half a bit older but they all have
>trouble.
>
>Anyone encounter this problem and any suggestions to break this
>material down to a more easily digestable state for younger scouts?
>
>Also does anyone have web references to some of the stated items in
>the MB that is Scout friendly? Like its made for 6-9 graders in mind?

--
73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm for info.

Yahoo! for Good
• Actually, it s more like trying to make sure that the Scout is truly successful at what he s doing. As A Radio, Computer and Electronics merit badge councilor
Message 5 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
Actually, it's more like trying to make sure that the Scout is truly
successful at what he's doing. As A Radio, Computer and Electronics
I will discourage those who have not completed the 6th grade from taking
the merit badge. This is from experience. There are exceptions, but,
most under
age 11 or 12 and not completed the 6th grade don't have the concepts
learned yet to tackle these merit badges. I don't want to set a kid up
for failure so I
try to make sure he's truly ready. The Scoutmaster in most cases has not
looked at the requirements for these technical merit badges so he not
necessarily
in the best position to approve or encourage to put off until a later time.
We try to get this information across at roundtable so that we can head
them off at the pass. However, as you probably know not everyone goes to
roundtable.
So, in that case we do the best we can to screen.
BSA policy is not written to be so strictly followed that a boy fails.
It's written so that a boy will succeed.

73 and YiS,

Bill, W2BSA

Al Katzman wrote:

> Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't in
> the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might get
> into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
> better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
> than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
> badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
>
> */Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>/* wrote:
>
> Alan, I've also experienced cognitive problems with younger Scouts
> who are trying to take Radio MB. Radio MB (along with Computers,
> which are just too abstract for 10.5 to 12-year olds (finished 4th
> through 6th grades). I even had problems this past summer with
> Space Exploration: many, many younger Scouts just could not grasp
> the notion that space is a vacuum and that one cannot set up a
> windmill generator on the Moon.
>
> There are always individual exceptions, but I have taken to
> requiring that anyone who wants to take Radio MB have finished at
> they have acquired the necessary maturity and academic training
> (e.g., 7th grade science) to be able to assimilate abstract
> notions. I have also found that spoon feeding the information
> within advanced merit badges to Scouts belies the purpose of the
> merit badge program since when they have finished, they still have
> no basic understanding of what the merit badge is about, viz how
>
> 73 and YIS de Fred K2FRD
>
> At 6:21 +0000 28/09/2005, Alan Stumpf wrote:
> >I am beginning to prepare my Radio Merit Badge things for the class
> >I offer during JOTA. I ask the Scouts to prepare several requirments
> >before JOTA and I don't know how to go about getting them familiar
> >with the spectrum requirment. I usually do this during the class but
> >the Scout can't seem to grasp its idea. I end up hand feeding the
> >material to each scout. In my normal class of ten half are very
> >young scout with the other half a bit older but they all have
> >trouble.
> >
> >Anyone encounter this problem and any suggestions to break this
> >material down to a more easily digestable state for younger scouts?
> >
> >Also does anyone have web references to some of the stated items in
> >the MB that is Scout friendly? Like its made for 6-9 graders in mind?
>
> --
> 73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
> http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
> Free Subscription To OCARG EAGLE, a newsletter for ham radio Scouters
> http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm for info.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! for Good
> Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
>
> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
>
> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
>
> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
>
> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
>
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
>
>
> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
• No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before taking certain merit
Message 6 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005

Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level, particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most 11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household 110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze over.

73 de Fred K2FRD

At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
>Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that badge.

--
73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm for info.
• Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences, and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can t agree with what you are
Message 7 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.

If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
won't know what you are talking about.

My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.

It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.

Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
who forgot all their physics a long time ago.

73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK

--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.
>
> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
over.
>
> 73 de Fred K2FRD
>
> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
>
> --
> 73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
> http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
> Free Subscription To OCARG EAGLE, a newsletter for ham radio Scouters
> http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm for info.
• By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB. 73 de Fred
Message 8 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.

73 de Fred

At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
>Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
>and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
>with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.
>
>If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
>the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
> won't know what you are talking about.
>
>My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
>for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
>took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
>knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
>specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
>one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
>genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
>
>It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
>scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
>then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
>school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
>incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
>anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
>
>Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
>a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
>who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
>
>73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
>
>--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
>> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
>BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
>taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
>know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
>determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
>setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
>younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
>and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
>there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
>Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
>unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
>Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
>longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
>badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
>advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.
>>
>> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
>particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
>on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
>hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
>merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
>11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
>old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
>Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
>not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
>spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
>even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
>even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
>Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
>110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
>start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
>whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
>over.
>>
>> 73 de Fred K2FRD
>>
>> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
>> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
>in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
>get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
>better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
>than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
>badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
• Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the exception not the rule. I m interested in the youngster successfully completing the merit
Message 9 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having some
fun at the same time.

73,

Bill, W2BSA
Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:

> By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
>
> 73 de Fred
>
> At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
> >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
> >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
> >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.
> >
> >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
> >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
> > won't know what you are talking about.
> >
> >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
> >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
> >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
> >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
> >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
> >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
> >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
> >
> >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
> >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
> >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
> >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
> >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
> >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
> >
> >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
> >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
> >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
> >
> >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
> >
> >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
> >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
> >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
> >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
> >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
> >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
> >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
> >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
> >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
> >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
> >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
> >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
> >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
> >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
> >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
> >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
> >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and
> Eagle.
> >>
> >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
> >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
> >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working
> >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
> >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
> >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
> >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
> >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
> >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
> >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
> >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
> >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
> >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
> >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
> >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
> >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
> >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
> >over.
> >>
> >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
> >>
> >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
> >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
> >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
> >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
> >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
> >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
> >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
>
>
> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
>
> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
>
> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
>
> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
>
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
>
>
> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
• So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most couldn t get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there s no logic in that. N3KIP ...
Message 10 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
that.

N3KIP

--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
> Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
> exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
> successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
some
> fun at the same time.
>
> 73,
>
> Bill, W2BSA
> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
>
> > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
> >
> > 73 de Fred
> >
> > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
> > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
> > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
> > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
phrased it.
> > >
> > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
> > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then
they
> > > won't know what you are talking about.
> > >
> > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
> > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but
then I
> > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no
prior
> > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate
classes in
> > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
> > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
> > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
> > >
> > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
> > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
> > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
> > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
> > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
> > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
> > >
> > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
> > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
> > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
> > >
> > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
> > >
> > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD
<k2frd@m...> wrote:
> > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
> > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
> > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't
say I
> > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
> > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout
Camp
> > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
> > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
> > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
> > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
> > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
> > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
> > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
> > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
> > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
> > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
> > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
> > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and
> > Eagle.
> > >>
> > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
> > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
> > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout
working
> > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
> > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a
particular
> > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
> > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
> > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
> > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
> > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
> > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
> > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it
may be
> > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
> > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
> > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
> > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger
Scouts to
> > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes
glaze
> > >over.
> > >>
> > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
> > >>
> > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
> > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that
aren't
> > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
> > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
> > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a
partial
> > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off
on the
> > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take
that
> >
> >
> > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
> >
> > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
> >
> > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
> > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
> >
> > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
> >
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
> >
> >
> > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
> >
> >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
• OK, I ll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and 11-year olds are not
Message 11 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and 11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is found to be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.

At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
>So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
>couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
>that.
>
>N3KIP
>
>--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
>> Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
>> exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
>> successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
>some
>> fun at the same time.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Bill, W2BSA
>> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
>>
>> > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
>> >
>> > 73 de Fred
> > >
>> > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
>> > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
>> > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
>> > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
>phrased it.
• Hi All, I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
Message 12 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
Hi All,

I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do
about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
teaching to the age group.

Be flexible and tailor it to the participants. Whats more important the

Roger Woods
G8XAN

-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
Sent: 02 October 2005 16:07
corner

OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you
gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and 11-year olds
are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and
11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most
kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is found to
be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.

At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
>So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
>couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
>that.
>
>N3KIP
>
>--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
>> Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
>> exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
>> successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
>some
>> fun at the same time.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Bill, W2BSA
>> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
>>
>> > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
>> >
>> > 73 de Fred
> > >
>> > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
>> > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
>> > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
>> > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
>phrased it.

Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.

Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe

Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email

SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
• Sorry, but I m speaking from experience not theory. I have taught licensing classes for several years and the norm has been that most under the age of 11 have
Message 13 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
Sorry, but I'm speaking from experience not theory. I have taught
licensing classes for several years
and the norm has been that most under the age of 11 have struggled if
not downright failed It has
discouraged most as well. There is no arguement here. I will continue to
screen and discourage
until they are older.

73,

Bill, W2BSA

Alun wrote:

> So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
> couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
> that.
>
> N3KIP
>
> --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
> > Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
> > exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
> > successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
> some
> > fun at the same time.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Bill, W2BSA
> > Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
> >
> > > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
> > >
> > > 73 de Fred
> > >
> > > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
> > > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
> > > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
> > > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
> phrased it.
> > > >
> > > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
> > > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then
> they
> > > > won't know what you are talking about.
> > > >
> > > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
> > > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but
> then I
> > > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no
> prior
> > > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate
> classes in
> > > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
> > > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
> > > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
> > > >
> > > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
> > > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
> > > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
> > > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
> > > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
> > > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
> > > >
> > > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
> > > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
> > > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
> > > >
> > > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
> > > >
> > > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD
> <k2frd@m...> wrote:
> > > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
> > > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
> > > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't
> say I
> > > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
> > > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout
> Camp
> > > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
> > > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
> > > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
> > > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
> > > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
> > > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
> > > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
> > > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
> > > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
> > > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
> > > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
> > > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and
> > > Eagle.
> > > >>
> > > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
> > > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
> > > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout
> working
> > > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
> > > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a
> particular
> > > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
> > > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
> > > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
> > > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
> > > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
> > > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
> > > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it
> may be
> > > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
> > > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
> > > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
> > > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger
> Scouts to
> > > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes
> glaze
> > > >over.
> > > >>
> > > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
> > > >>
> > > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
> > > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that
> aren't
> > > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
> > > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
> > > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a
> partial
> > > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off
> on the
> > > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take
> that
> > >
> > >
> > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
> > >
> > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
> > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
> > >
> > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
> > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
> > >
> > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
> > >
> > >
> > > ScoutRadio start page:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
> > >
> > > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
> > > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
> > >
> > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > >
> > >
> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
>
> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
>
> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
>
> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
>
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
>
>
> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
• Actually, we do put as much effort into teaching the badge. We prefer to tailor it to success. We have to work around the US educational system and most kids
Message 14 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
Actually, we do put as much effort into teaching the badge. We prefer to
tailor it to success. We have to work around
the US educational system and most kids in the US are just not ready at
age 10 or 11. These are not required badges
so we want the youngsters to have fun and not have to struggle to attain

Bill Stewart, W2BSA

Roger Woods wrote:

>
> Hi All,
>
> I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do
> about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
> teaching to the age group.
>
> I have had more trouble teaching some adults than some youngsters.
>
> Be flexible and tailor it to the participants. Whats more important the
>
> Roger Woods
> G8XAN
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
> Sent: 02 October 2005 16:07
> around the
> corner
>
> OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you
> gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and
> 11-year olds
> are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and
> 11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most
> kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is
> found to
> be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.
>
> At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
> >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
> >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
> >that.
> >
> >N3KIP
> >
> >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
> >> Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
> >> exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
> >> successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
> >some
> >> fun at the same time.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >>
> >> Bill, W2BSA
> >> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
> >>
> >> > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
> >> >
> >> > 73 de Fred
> > > >
> >> > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
> >> > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
> >> > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
> >> > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
> >phrased it.
>
>
>
> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
>
> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
>
> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
>
> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
>
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email
>
>
> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
>
> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
>
> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
>
> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
>
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
>
>
> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
• 100% agree, Bill. Further, if BSA wanted 10- and 11-year olds to work on merit badges, then it would have included merit badges in the Tenderfoot, Second, and
Message 15 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
100% agree, Bill. Further, if BSA wanted 10- and 11-year olds to work on merit badges, then it would have included merit badges in the Tenderfoot, Second, and First Class requirements. BSA actually tried this in the 70s and 80s and it didn't work.

73 de Fred K2FRD

At 15:38 -0400 02/10/2005, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Actually, we do put as much effort into teaching the badge. We prefer to
>tailor it to success. We have to work around
>the US educational system and most kids in the US are just not ready at
>age 10 or 11. These are not required badges
>so we want the youngsters to have fun and not have to struggle to attain
>
>Bill Stewart, W2BSA
>
>Roger Woods wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do
>> about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
>> teaching to the age group.
>>
>> I have had more trouble teaching some adults than some youngsters.
>>
>> Be flexible and tailor it to the participants. Whats more important the
>>
>> Roger Woods
>> G8XAN
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
>> Sent: 02 October 2005 16:07
>> around the
>> corner
>>
>> OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you
>> gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and
>> 11-year olds
>> are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and
>> 11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most
>> kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is
>> found to
>> be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.
>>
>> At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
>> >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
>> >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
>> >that.
>> >
> > >N3KIP
• I think we ve missed the point of the Merit Badge program here. It s not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge. It s really about
Message 16 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
I think we've missed the point of the Merit Badge program here.  It's not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge.  It's really about teaching the scout an interest that may someday spark another interest in an avocation or vocation.  All the badges are designed to teach scouts a little bit about the subject to whet their appetite.  By screening the scout we are denying him that opportunity.  We aren't training genuises here.  We are giving the scout a bit of information about the subject.  Some badges they will like.  Some they will not.  But by all means let them be the judge of that.  Before one jumps on this note I said in the beginning mentally capable.  I realize there are some badges that the scout may not be physically capable of doing.  I don't think Radio MB is one of those.  We taught 11-17 year old scouts at the Jamboree and most all of them, regardless of the age, learned something about the subject.  And that is the real purpose of the program.

Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.

73 de Fred

At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
>Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
>and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
>with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.
>
>If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
>the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
> won't know what you are talking about.
>
>My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
>for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
>took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
>knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
>specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
>one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
>genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
>
>It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
>scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
>then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
>school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
>incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
>anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
>
>Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
>a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
>who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
>
>73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
>
>--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
>> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
>BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
>taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
>know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
>determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
>setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
>younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
>and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
>there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
>Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
>unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
>Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
>longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
>badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
>advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.
>>
>> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
>particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
>on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
>hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
>merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
>11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
>old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
>Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
>not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
>spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
>even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
>even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
>Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
>110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
>start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
>whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
>over.
>>
>> 73 de Fred K2FRD
>>
>> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
>> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
>in the book and against BSA policy.  Better watch out on that.  Might
>get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point.  It's
>better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
>than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
>badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that

Yahoo! for Good
• The merit badge program is to be started after attaining the First Class rank usually completed by age 12. In the Troop I was involved with we did not allow
Message 17 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
The merit badge program is to be started after attaining the First Class
rank usually completed by age 12.
In the Troop I was involved with we did not allow youth to do merit
badges until after they completed the New Scout program.
The New Scout program got them to First Class. At Scout Camp we had them
do some of the simpler merit badges that were usually in the handicraft
area.
After completion of the New Scout program they were allowed to take what
ever they wanted to with guidence from the Scoutmaster and Assistant
Scoutmasters.
So, no I don't think we have missed the point. The merit badges we are
talking about are not required. So, we don't want the Scouts to struggle
through them.
We want them to have fun with them and, oh by the way they might learn
something, too.

Al Katzman wrote:

> I think we've missed the point of the Merit Badge program here. It's
> not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge.
> It's really about teaching the scout an interest that may someday
> spark another interest in an avocation or vocation. All the badges
> are designed to teach scouts a little bit about the subject to whet
> their appetite. By screening the scout we are denying him that
> opportunity. We aren't training genuises here. We are giving the
> scout a bit of information about the subject. Some badges they will
> like. Some they will not. But by all means let them be the judge of
> that. Before one jumps on this note I said in the beginning mentally
> capable. I realize there are some badges that the scout may not be
> physically capable of doing. I don't think Radio MB is one of those.
> We taught 11-17 year old scouts at the Jamboree and most all of them,
> regardless of the age, learned something about the subject. And that
> is the real purpose of the program.
>
> */Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>/* wrote:
>
> By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10-
>
> 73 de Fred
>
> At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
> >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
> >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
> >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
> phrased it.
> >
> >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
> >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then
> they
> > won't know what you are talking about.
> >
> >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
> >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but
> then I
> >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no
> prior
> >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate
> classes in
> >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
> >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
> >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
> >
> >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
> >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
> >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
> >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
> >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
> >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
> >
> >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
> >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
> >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
> >
> >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
> >
> >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD
> <k2frd@m...> wrote:
> >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
> >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
> >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't
> say I
> >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
> >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout
> Camp
> >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
> >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
> >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
> >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
> >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
> >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
> >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
> >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
> >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
> >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
> >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life,
> and Eagle.
> >>
> >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
> >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
> working
> >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
> >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a
> particular
> >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
> >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
> >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
> >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
> >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
> >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
> >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it
> may be
> >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
> >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
> >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
> >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger
> Scouts to
> >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes
> glaze
> >over.
> >>
> >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
> >>
> >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
> >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that
> aren't
> >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
> >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
> >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a
> partial
> >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off
> on the
> >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take
> that
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
>
>
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• I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all
Message 18 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA around the corner I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all  special ed.....
I do the radio merit badge all the time..I cover all the  requirements   and have never had anyone, by the time I was done  not under stand or “pass”...I also do the girl scouts....which I AM  allowed to add to the requirements since that 1 is just a patch program....

I have after all is said and done some scouts look for me  and sit in on occasions even after they have passed...and some have gotten their liscense...
Merit badges are @ wetting their appitite in areas they would maybe never have tried

The requirements are not hard but then again I am a teacher and a mom and deal with special ed ...I do a lot of fill in info and start out with  its use, mon bouce and sky bounce with loads of super balls to help demo ,etc...well any way the point is I believe it is in thepresentation...and yes some is supposed to be done ahead of time, but It is just as easy to present it and question them to make sure that they under stand it as it is to just make sure the requirements are done

For every merit badge  counsellor out there, there will always be an opinion but this is just the way I do it....

ky2mmm
• I think we have all had different experiences while teaching Radio Merit Badge. I ve been teaching it since before 1998, always in a group setting (4 to 10)
Message 19 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
I think we have all had different experiences while teaching Radio Merit Badge. I've been teaching it since before 1998, always in a group setting (4 to 10) rather than just a couple Scouts. There's certainly more flexibility with only a couple since if more in-depth instruction/explanation is needed, the time can be taken to teach it while with a larger group, an instructor would lose a number of the older more advanced Scouts in a class if s/he had to take one or two sessions to explain the basic nature of electricity (i.e., where the electrons come from, where they go, how they get there, all this before 110vac, 60 HZ leads into frequency) to a Scout who either through lack of conceptual ability or educational background needs to start from scratch (e.g., has no idea how household electricity works). Especially in a Scout camp setting where the instructor is given five 1.5-hr sessions and no more, this detailed approach will not work since there isn't enough time.

The original question on this thread centered around learning problems of younger Scouts who could not grasp the abstract concept of electricity. Those who could not had to be spoon-fed the information without truly understanding how electricity works and, by inference and in succession, how frequency and radiowave propagation works. At some point, a Radio MB counsellor must decide (1) if the Scout actually understands the requirements and can actually do them or (2) if the Scout must merely feed back to the instructor what the instructor has said to secure the merit badge without understanding and thus be awarded the merit badge without really learning anything or (3) if the Scout should wait a year or two before undertaking the merit badge and securing some understanding from it. Personally, I prefer not to sign off on Radio MB (or any other MB I instruct) until I am assured that a Scout understands what the merit badge is about and has actually completed the requirements rather than just regurgitated verbatim back to me what I said.

Again, the merit badge program was designed for Scouts who have already completed First Class rank, vis a vis 12-yr olds and older. It is not designed for new Scouts who have not yet completed Second nor First Class. There are always exceptions and exceptional entry-level Scouts who would be able to successfully and meaningfully complete Radio MB at any time; some probably could have done it as Tiger Cubs. These are future Eagle Scouts.

73 and YIS de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS

At 16:54 -0400 03/10/2005, kimbare wrote:
>I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all special ed.....
>I do the radio merit badge all the time..I cover all the requirements and have never had anyone, by the time I was done not under stand or "pass"...I also do the girl scouts....which I AM allowed to add to the requirements since that 1 is just a patch program....
>
>I have after all is said and done some scouts look for me and sit in on occasions even after they have passed...and some have gotten their liscense...
>Merit badges are @ wetting their appitite in areas they would maybe never have tried
>
>The requirements are not hard but then again I am a teacher and a mom and deal with special ed ...I do a lot of fill in info and start out with its use, mon bouce and sky bounce with loads of super balls to help demo ,etc...well any way the point is I believe it is in thepresentation...and yes some is supposed to be done ahead of time, but It is just as easy to present it and question them to make sure that they under stand it as it is to just make sure the requirements are done
>
>For every merit badge counsellor out there, there will always be an opinion but this is just the way I do it....
>
>ky2mmm

--
73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
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