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Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA around the corner

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  • ClayMayrose@aol.com
    I guess it is time to announce that WB5BSA will be active out of Central Oklahoma for JOTA. Clay, WA6LBU
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 27, 2005
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      I guess it is time to announce that WB5BSA will be active out of Central Oklahoma for JOTA.
       
      Clay, WA6LBU
    • k2gw@arrl.net
      . I ask the Scouts to prepare several ... I genereally have the Scouts make a radio spectrum chart in advance by using the one in the pamphlet as a guide. Then
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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        . I ask the Scouts to prepare several
        > requirments
        > before JOTA and I don't know how to go about getting them familiar
        > with the spectrum requirment. I usually do this during the class
        > but
        > the Scout can't seem to grasp its idea. I end up hand feeding the
        > material to each scout. In my normal class of ten half are very
        > young scout with the other half a bit older but they all have
        > trouble.
        >
        > Anyone encounter this problem and any suggestions to break this
        > material down to a more easily digestable state for younger scouts?

        I genereally have the Scouts make a radio spectrum chart in advance by using the one in the pamphlet as a guide.

        Then when we discuss it, I use the analogy of the visible light spectrum with all of the different colors actually being different frequencies of light. If you had goggles of one color you could only see that one color. A radio receiver is like those goggles, except you get to select color your're seeing with the tuning control.

        Further suggestions are welcome.

        73

        Gary, K2GW
      • LewisUpshur LEPC
        I show the walkie talkies on different frequencys with different size antennas and sjow them where FM radio and cell phones and CB are located. I mix the
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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          I show the walkie talkies on different frequencys with
          different size antennas and sjow them where FM radio
          and cell phones and CB are located.

          I mix the radios up and have them line them up in
          order.

          --- k2gw@... wrote:

          > . I ask the Scouts to prepare several
          > > requirments
          > > before JOTA and I don't know how to go about
          > getting them familiar
          > > with the spectrum requirment. I usually do this
          > during the class
          > > but
          > > the Scout can't seem to grasp its idea. I end up
          > hand feeding the
          > > material to each scout. In my normal class of ten
          > half are very
          > > young scout with the other half a bit older but
          > they all have
          > > trouble.
          > >
          > > Anyone encounter this problem and any suggestions
          > to break this
          > > material down to a more easily digestable state
          > for younger scouts?
          >
          > I genereally have the Scouts make a radio spectrum
          > chart in advance by using the one in the pamphlet as
          > a guide.
          >
          > Then when we discuss it, I use the analogy of the
          > visible light spectrum with all of the different
          > colors actually being different frequencies of
          > light. If you had goggles of one color you could
          > only see that one color. A radio receiver is like
          > those goggles, except you get to select color
          > your're seeing with the tuning control.
          >
          > Further suggestions are welcome.
          >
          > 73
          >
          > Gary, K2GW
          >




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        • Fred Stevens K2FRD
          Alan, I ve also experienced cognitive problems with younger Scouts who are trying to take Radio MB. Radio MB (along with Computers, Electronics and other
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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            Alan, I've also experienced cognitive problems with younger Scouts who are trying to take Radio MB. Radio MB (along with Computers, Electronics and other "advanced" merit badges) covers concepts which are just too abstract for 10.5 to 12-year olds (finished 4th through 6th grades). I even had problems this past summer with Space Exploration: many, many younger Scouts just could not grasp the notion that space is a vacuum and that one cannot set up a windmill generator on the Moon.

            There are always individual exceptions, but I have taken to requiring that anyone who wants to take Radio MB have finished at least sixth grade and, preferably seventh grade. By this point, they have acquired the necessary maturity and academic training (e.g., 7th grade science) to be able to assimilate abstract notions. I have also found that spoon feeding the information within advanced merit badges to Scouts belies the purpose of the merit badge program since when they have finished, they still have no basic understanding of what the merit badge is about, viz how radio works.

            73 and YIS de Fred K2FRD

            At 6:21 +0000 28/09/2005, Alan Stumpf wrote:
            >I am beginning to prepare my Radio Merit Badge things for the class
            >I offer during JOTA. I ask the Scouts to prepare several requirments
            >before JOTA and I don't know how to go about getting them familiar
            >with the spectrum requirment. I usually do this during the class but
            >the Scout can't seem to grasp its idea. I end up hand feeding the
            >material to each scout. In my normal class of ten half are very
            >young scout with the other half a bit older but they all have
            >trouble.
            >
            >Anyone encounter this problem and any suggestions to break this
            >material down to a more easily digestable state for younger scouts?
            >
            >Also does anyone have web references to some of the stated items in
            >the MB that is Scout friendly? Like its made for 6-9 graders in mind?

            --
            73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
            http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
            Free Subscription To OCARG EAGLE, a newsletter for ham radio Scouters
            http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm for info.
          • Al Katzman
            Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren t in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might get into a bit of
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
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              Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't in the book and against BSA policy.  Better watch out on that.  Might get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point.  It's better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that badge. 

              Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
              Alan, I've also experienced cognitive problems with younger Scouts who are trying to take Radio MB. Radio MB (along with Computers, Electronics and other "advanced" merit badges) covers concepts which are just too abstract for 10.5 to 12-year olds (finished 4th through 6th grades). I even had problems this past summer with Space Exploration: many, many younger Scouts just could not grasp the notion that space is a vacuum and that one cannot set up a windmill generator on the Moon.

              There are always individual exceptions, but I have taken to requiring that anyone who wants to take Radio MB have finished at least sixth grade and, preferably seventh grade. By this point, they have acquired the necessary maturity and academic training (e.g., 7th grade science) to be able to assimilate abstract notions. I have also found that spoon feeding the information within advanced merit badges to Scouts belies the purpose of the merit badge program since when they have finished, they still have no basic understanding of what the merit badge is about, viz how radio works.

              73 and YIS de Fred K2FRD

              At 6:21 +0000 28/09/2005, Alan Stumpf wrote:
              >I am beginning to prepare my Radio Merit Badge things for the class
              >I offer during JOTA. I ask the Scouts to prepare several requirments
              >before JOTA and I don't know how to go about getting them familiar
              >with the spectrum requirment. I usually do this during the class but
              >the Scout can't seem to grasp its idea. I end up hand feeding the
              >material to each scout. In my normal class of ten half are very
              >young scout with the other half a bit older but they all have
              >trouble.
              >
              >Anyone encounter this problem and any suggestions to break this
              >material down to a more easily digestable state for younger scouts?
              >
              >Also does anyone have web references to some of the stated items in
              >the MB that is Scout friendly? Like its made for 6-9 graders in mind?

              --
              73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
              http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
              Free Subscription To OCARG EAGLE, a newsletter for ham radio Scouters
              http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm for info.


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            • Bill Stewart
              Actually, it s more like trying to make sure that the Scout is truly successful at what he s doing. As A Radio, Computer and Electronics merit badge councilor
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
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                Actually, it's more like trying to make sure that the Scout is truly
                successful at what he's doing. As A Radio, Computer and Electronics
                merit badge councilor
                I will discourage those who have not completed the 6th grade from taking
                the merit badge. This is from experience. There are exceptions, but,
                most under
                age 11 or 12 and not completed the 6th grade don't have the concepts
                learned yet to tackle these merit badges. I don't want to set a kid up
                for failure so I
                try to make sure he's truly ready. The Scoutmaster in most cases has not
                looked at the requirements for these technical merit badges so he not
                necessarily
                in the best position to approve or encourage to put off until a later time.
                We try to get this information across at roundtable so that we can head
                them off at the pass. However, as you probably know not everyone goes to
                roundtable.
                So, in that case we do the best we can to screen.
                BSA policy is not written to be so strictly followed that a boy fails.
                It's written so that a boy will succeed.

                73 and YiS,

                Bill, W2BSA

                Al Katzman wrote:

                > Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't in
                > the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might get
                > into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
                > better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
                > than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
                > badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
                > badge.
                >
                > */Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>/* wrote:
                >
                > Alan, I've also experienced cognitive problems with younger Scouts
                > who are trying to take Radio MB. Radio MB (along with Computers,
                > Electronics and other "advanced" merit badges) covers concepts
                > which are just too abstract for 10.5 to 12-year olds (finished 4th
                > through 6th grades). I even had problems this past summer with
                > Space Exploration: many, many younger Scouts just could not grasp
                > the notion that space is a vacuum and that one cannot set up a
                > windmill generator on the Moon.
                >
                > There are always individual exceptions, but I have taken to
                > requiring that anyone who wants to take Radio MB have finished at
                > least sixth grade and, preferably seventh grade. By this point,
                > they have acquired the necessary maturity and academic training
                > (e.g., 7th grade science) to be able to assimilate abstract
                > notions. I have also found that spoon feeding the information
                > within advanced merit badges to Scouts belies the purpose of the
                > merit badge program since when they have finished, they still have
                > no basic understanding of what the merit badge is about, viz how
                > radio works.
                >
                > 73 and YIS de Fred K2FRD
                >
                > At 6:21 +0000 28/09/2005, Alan Stumpf wrote:
                > >I am beginning to prepare my Radio Merit Badge things for the class
                > >I offer during JOTA. I ask the Scouts to prepare several requirments
                > >before JOTA and I don't know how to go about getting them familiar
                > >with the spectrum requirment. I usually do this during the class but
                > >the Scout can't seem to grasp its idea. I end up hand feeding the
                > >material to each scout. In my normal class of ten half are very
                > >young scout with the other half a bit older but they all have
                > >trouble.
                > >
                > >Anyone encounter this problem and any suggestions to break this
                > >material down to a more easily digestable state for younger scouts?
                > >
                > >Also does anyone have web references to some of the stated items in
                > >the MB that is Scout friendly? Like its made for 6-9 graders in mind?
                >
                > --
                > 73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
                > http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
                > Free Subscription To OCARG EAGLE, a newsletter for ham radio Scouters
                > http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm for info.
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                >
                > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                >
                > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                >
                > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                >
                > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                >
                > ScoutRadio start page:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
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                > Radio module
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+module&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=F4KroXMj_acsKTFzn9TqOQ>
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                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+telemetry&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=EP_DR2s5OUWszy8ZqP8kAw>
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              • Fred Stevens K2FRD
                No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before taking certain merit
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
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                  No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second, and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.

                  Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level, particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most 11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household 110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze over.

                  73 de Fred K2FRD

                  At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                  >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that badge.

                  --
                  73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
                  http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
                  Free Subscription To OCARG EAGLE, a newsletter for ham radio Scouters
                  http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm for info.
                • Alun
                  Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences, and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can t agree with what you are
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
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                    Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                    and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                    with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.

                    If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
                    the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
                    won't know what you are talking about.

                    My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
                    for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
                    took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
                    knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
                    specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
                    one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
                    genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.

                    It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
                    scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
                    then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
                    school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
                    incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
                    anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.

                    Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
                    a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
                    who forgot all their physics a long time ago.

                    73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK

                    --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
                    > No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
                    BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
                    taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
                    know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
                    determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
                    setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
                    specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
                    younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
                    and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
                    there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
                    Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
                    unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
                    Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
                    longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
                    exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
                    badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
                    advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.
                    >
                    > Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
                    particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
                    first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working
                    on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
                    hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
                    merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
                    11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
                    old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
                    Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
                    not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
                    spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
                    even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
                    even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
                    Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
                    110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
                    start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
                    whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
                    over.
                    >
                    > 73 de Fred K2FRD
                    >
                    > At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                    > >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
                    in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
                    get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
                    better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
                    than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
                    badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
                    badge.
                    >
                    > --
                    > 73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
                    > http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
                    > Free Subscription To OCARG EAGLE, a newsletter for ham radio Scouters
                    > http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/ocarg.htm for info.
                  • Fred Stevens K2FRD
                    By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB. 73 de Fred
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
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                      By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.

                      73 de Fred

                      At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                      >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                      >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                      >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.
                      >
                      >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
                      >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
                      > won't know what you are talking about.
                      >
                      >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
                      >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
                      >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
                      >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
                      >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
                      >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
                      >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
                      >
                      >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
                      >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
                      >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
                      >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
                      >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
                      >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
                      >
                      >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
                      >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
                      >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
                      >
                      >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
                      >
                      >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
                      >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
                      >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
                      >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
                      >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
                      >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
                      >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
                      >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
                      >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
                      >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
                      >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
                      >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
                      >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
                      >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
                      >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
                      >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
                      >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
                      >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.
                      >>
                      >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
                      >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
                      >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working
                      >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
                      >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
                      >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
                      >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
                      >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
                      >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
                      >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
                      >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
                      >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
                      >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
                      >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
                      >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
                      >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
                      >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
                      >over.
                      >>
                      >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
                      >>
                      >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                      >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
                      >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
                      >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
                      >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
                      >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
                      >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
                      >badge.
                    • Bill Stewart
                      Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the exception not the rule. I m interested in the youngster successfully completing the merit
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
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                        Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
                        exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
                        successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having some
                        fun at the same time.

                        73,

                        Bill, W2BSA
                        Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:

                        > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
                        > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                        >
                        > 73 de Fred
                        >
                        > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                        > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                        > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                        > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.
                        > >
                        > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
                        > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
                        > > won't know what you are talking about.
                        > >
                        > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
                        > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
                        > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
                        > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
                        > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
                        > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
                        > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
                        > >
                        > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
                        > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
                        > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
                        > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
                        > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
                        > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
                        > >
                        > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
                        > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
                        > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
                        > >
                        > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
                        > >
                        > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
                        > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
                        > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
                        > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
                        > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
                        > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
                        > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
                        > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
                        > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
                        > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
                        > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
                        > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
                        > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
                        > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
                        > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
                        > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
                        > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
                        > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and
                        > Eagle.
                        > >>
                        > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
                        > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
                        > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working
                        > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
                        > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
                        > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
                        > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
                        > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
                        > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
                        > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
                        > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
                        > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
                        > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
                        > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
                        > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
                        > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
                        > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
                        > >over.
                        > >>
                        > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
                        > >>
                        > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                        > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
                        > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
                        > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
                        > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
                        > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
                        > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
                        > >badge.
                        >
                        >
                        > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                        >
                        > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                        > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                        >
                        > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                        > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                        >
                        > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                        > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                        >
                        > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                        >
                        > ScoutRadio start page:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                        > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                        >
                        > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                        > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >
                        > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
                        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
                        >
                        > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                        >
                        > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                      • Alun
                        So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most couldn t get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there s no logic in that. N3KIP ...
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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                          So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                          couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                          that.

                          N3KIP

                          --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
                          > Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
                          > exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
                          > successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
                          some
                          > fun at the same time.
                          >
                          > 73,
                          >
                          > Bill, W2BSA
                          > Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                          >
                          > > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
                          > > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                          > >
                          > > 73 de Fred
                          > >
                          > > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                          > > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                          > > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                          > > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                          phrased it.
                          > > >
                          > > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
                          > > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then
                          they
                          > > > won't know what you are talking about.
                          > > >
                          > > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
                          > > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but
                          then I
                          > > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no
                          prior
                          > > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate
                          classes in
                          > > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
                          > > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
                          > > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
                          > > >
                          > > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
                          > > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
                          > > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
                          > > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
                          > > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
                          > > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
                          > > >
                          > > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
                          > > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
                          > > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
                          > > >
                          > > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
                          > > >
                          > > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD
                          <k2frd@m...> wrote:
                          > > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
                          > > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
                          > > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't
                          say I
                          > > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
                          > > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout
                          Camp
                          > > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
                          > > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
                          > > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
                          > > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
                          > > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
                          > > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
                          > > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
                          > > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
                          > > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
                          > > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
                          > > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
                          > > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and
                          > > Eagle.
                          > > >>
                          > > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
                          > > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
                          > > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout
                          working
                          > > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
                          > > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a
                          particular
                          > > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
                          > > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
                          > > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
                          > > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
                          > > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
                          > > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
                          > > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it
                          may be
                          > > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
                          > > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
                          > > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
                          > > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger
                          Scouts to
                          > > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes
                          glaze
                          > > >over.
                          > > >>
                          > > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
                          > > >>
                          > > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                          > > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that
                          aren't
                          > > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
                          > > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
                          > > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a
                          partial
                          > > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off
                          on the
                          > > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take
                          that
                          > > >badge.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                          > >
                          > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                          > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                          > >
                          > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                          > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                          > >
                          > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                          > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                          > >
                          > > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                          > >
                          > > ScoutRadio start page:
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                          > > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                          > >
                          > > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                          > >
                          > > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
                          > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
                          > >
                          > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                          > >
                          > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > >
                        • Fred Stevens K2FRD
                          OK, I ll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and 11-year olds are not
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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                            OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and 11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is found to be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.

                            At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                            >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                            >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                            >that.
                            >
                            >N3KIP
                            >
                            >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
                            >> Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
                            >> exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
                            >> successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
                            >some
                            >> fun at the same time.
                            >>
                            >> 73,
                            >>
                            >> Bill, W2BSA
                            >> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                            >>
                            >> > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
                            >> > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                            >> >
                            >> > 73 de Fred
                            > > >
                            >> > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                            >> > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                            >> > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                            >> > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                            >phrased it.
                          • Roger Woods
                            Hi All, I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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                              Hi All,

                              I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do
                              about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
                              teaching to the age group.

                              I have had more trouble teaching some adults than some youngsters.

                              Be flexible and tailor it to the participants. Whats more important the
                              experience or the badge.

                              Roger Woods
                              G8XAN

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
                              Sent: 02 October 2005 16:07
                              To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA around the
                              corner

                              OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you
                              gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and 11-year olds
                              are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and
                              11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most
                              kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is found to
                              be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.

                              At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                              >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                              >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                              >that.
                              >
                              >N3KIP
                              >
                              >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
                              >> Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
                              >> exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
                              >> successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
                              >some
                              >> fun at the same time.
                              >>
                              >> 73,
                              >>
                              >> Bill, W2BSA
                              >> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                              >>
                              >> > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
                              >> > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                              >> >
                              >> > 73 de Fred
                              > > >
                              >> > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                              >> > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                              >> > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                              >> > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                              >phrased it.



                              Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                              Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
                              to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                              Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                              http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                              Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                              http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                              Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                              ScoutRadio start page:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email
                              addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                              Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                              Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

                              SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • Bill Stewart
                              Sorry, but I m speaking from experience not theory. I have taught licensing classes for several years and the norm has been that most under the age of 11 have
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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                                Sorry, but I'm speaking from experience not theory. I have taught
                                licensing classes for several years
                                and the norm has been that most under the age of 11 have struggled if
                                not downright failed It has
                                discouraged most as well. There is no arguement here. I will continue to
                                screen and discourage
                                until they are older.

                                73,

                                Bill, W2BSA

                                Alun wrote:

                                > So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                                > couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                                > that.
                                >
                                > N3KIP
                                >
                                > --- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
                                > > Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
                                > > exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
                                > > successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
                                > some
                                > > fun at the same time.
                                > >
                                > > 73,
                                > >
                                > > Bill, W2BSA
                                > > Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
                                > > > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                                > > >
                                > > > 73 de Fred
                                > > >
                                > > > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                                > > > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                                > > > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                                > > > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                                > phrased it.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
                                > > > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then
                                > they
                                > > > > won't know what you are talking about.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
                                > > > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but
                                > then I
                                > > > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no
                                > prior
                                > > > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate
                                > classes in
                                > > > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
                                > > > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
                                > > > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
                                > > > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
                                > > > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
                                > > > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
                                > > > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
                                > > > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
                                > > > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
                                > > > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
                                > > > >
                                > > > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD
                                > <k2frd@m...> wrote:
                                > > > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
                                > > > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
                                > > > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't
                                > say I
                                > > > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
                                > > > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout
                                > Camp
                                > > > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
                                > > > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
                                > > > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
                                > > > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
                                > > > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
                                > > > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
                                > > > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
                                > > > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
                                > > > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
                                > > > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
                                > > > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
                                > > > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and
                                > > > Eagle.
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
                                > > > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
                                > > > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout
                                > working
                                > > > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
                                > > > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a
                                > particular
                                > > > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
                                > > > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
                                > > > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
                                > > > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
                                > > > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
                                > > > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
                                > > > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it
                                > may be
                                > > > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
                                > > > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
                                > > > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
                                > > > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger
                                > Scouts to
                                > > > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes
                                > glaze
                                > > > >over.
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                                > > > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that
                                > aren't
                                > > > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
                                > > > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
                                > > > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a
                                > partial
                                > > > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off
                                > on the
                                > > > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take
                                > that
                                > > > >badge.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                                > > >
                                > > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                                > > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                                > > >
                                > > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                > > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                                > > >
                                > > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                > > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                                > > >
                                > > > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                                > > >
                                > > > ScoutRadio start page:
                                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                                > > > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                                > > >
                                > > > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                > > >
                                > > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                > > >
                                > > > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
                                > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
                                > > >
                                > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > >
                                > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                > > >
                                > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                                >
                                > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                                > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                                >
                                > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                                >
                                > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                                >
                                > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                                >
                                > ScoutRadio start page:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                                > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                                >
                                > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                                > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > SPONSORED LINKS
                                > Radio school
                                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+school&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=Qbeib4gbVnk0g7quBaR5qQ>
                                > Radio module
                                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+module&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=F4KroXMj_acsKTFzn9TqOQ>
                                > Radio telemetry
                                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+telemetry&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=EP_DR2s5OUWszy8ZqP8kAw>
                                >
                                > Radio advertising
                                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+advertising&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=efW-C1Utbf0Gxnf4MnjSVA>
                                > Radio promotion
                                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+promotion&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=1aFw9R3Ffwi-X8ZnfstKgw>
                                > Radio ads
                                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Radio+ads&w1=Radio+school&w2=Radio+module&w3=Radio+telemetry&w4=Radio+advertising&w5=Radio+promotion&w6=Radio+ads&c=6&s=116&.sig=tBoMV1pXxwO3-eEdxx-QhQ>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                >
                                > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
                                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
                                >
                                > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                >
                                > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                >
                              • Bill Stewart
                                Actually, we do put as much effort into teaching the badge. We prefer to tailor it to success. We have to work around the US educational system and most kids
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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                                  Actually, we do put as much effort into teaching the badge. We prefer to
                                  tailor it to success. We have to work around
                                  the US educational system and most kids in the US are just not ready at
                                  age 10 or 11. These are not required badges
                                  so we want the youngsters to have fun and not have to struggle to attain
                                  the badge.

                                  Bill Stewart, W2BSA

                                  Roger Woods wrote:

                                  >
                                  > Hi All,
                                  >
                                  > I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do
                                  > about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
                                  > teaching to the age group.
                                  >
                                  > I have had more trouble teaching some adults than some youngsters.
                                  >
                                  > Be flexible and tailor it to the participants. Whats more important the
                                  > experience or the badge.
                                  >
                                  > Roger Woods
                                  > G8XAN
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
                                  > Sent: 02 October 2005 16:07
                                  > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA
                                  > around the
                                  > corner
                                  >
                                  > OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you
                                  > gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and
                                  > 11-year olds
                                  > are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and
                                  > 11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most
                                  > kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is
                                  > found to
                                  > be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.
                                  >
                                  > At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                                  > >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                                  > >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                                  > >that.
                                  > >
                                  > >N3KIP
                                  > >
                                  > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bill Stewart <w2bsa@c...> wrote:
                                  > >> Fred, I agree with you. What Alun has illustrated is definately the
                                  > >> exception not the rule. I'm interested in the youngster
                                  > >> successfully completing the merit badge and coming away with having
                                  > >some
                                  > >> fun at the same time.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> 73,
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Bill, W2BSA
                                  > >> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                                  > >>
                                  > >> > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and
                                  > >> > 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                                  > >> >
                                  > >> > 73 de Fred
                                  > > > >
                                  > >> > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                                  > >> > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                                  > >> > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                                  > >> > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                                  > >phrased it.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                                  >
                                  > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe
                                  > to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                                  >
                                  > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                  > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                                  >
                                  > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                  > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                                  >
                                  > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                                  >
                                  > ScoutRadio start page:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email
                                  > addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                                  >
                                  > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                                  >
                                  > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                                  > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                                  >
                                  > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                  > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                                  >
                                  > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                  > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                                  >
                                  > Visit the Adventure Radio Society: http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                                  >
                                  > ScoutRadio start page:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                                  > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                                  >
                                  > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  >
                                  > * Visit your group "ScoutRadio
                                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio>" on the web.
                                  >
                                  > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                  >
                                  > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                  > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  >
                                • Fred Stevens K2FRD
                                  100% agree, Bill. Further, if BSA wanted 10- and 11-year olds to work on merit badges, then it would have included merit badges in the Tenderfoot, Second, and
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 2, 2005
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                                    100% agree, Bill. Further, if BSA wanted 10- and 11-year olds to work on merit badges, then it would have included merit badges in the Tenderfoot, Second, and First Class requirements. BSA actually tried this in the 70s and 80s and it didn't work.

                                    73 de Fred K2FRD

                                    At 15:38 -0400 02/10/2005, Bill Stewart wrote:
                                    >Actually, we do put as much effort into teaching the badge. We prefer to
                                    >tailor it to success. We have to work around
                                    >the US educational system and most kids in the US are just not ready at
                                    >age 10 or 11. These are not required badges
                                    >so we want the youngsters to have fun and not have to struggle to attain
                                    >the badge.
                                    >
                                    >Bill Stewart, W2BSA
                                    >
                                    >Roger Woods wrote:
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >> Hi All,
                                    >>
                                    >> I sincerely hope you all put as much into teaching your Scouts as you do
                                    >> about arguing the case. If the book says do it then do it and tailor your
                                    >> teaching to the age group.
                                    >>
                                    >> I have had more trouble teaching some adults than some youngsters.
                                    >>
                                    >> Be flexible and tailor it to the participants. Whats more important the
                                    >> experience or the badge.
                                    >>
                                    >> Roger Woods
                                    >> G8XAN
                                    >>
                                    >> -----Original Message-----
                                    >> From: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    >> Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
                                    >> Sent: 02 October 2005 16:07
                                    >> To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                                    >> Subject: Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA
                                    >> around the
                                    >> corner
                                    >>
                                    >> OK, I'll reword and amplify since you seem to prefer deductive logic: you
                                    >> gave examples of the exceptions to the notion that most 10- and
                                    >> 11-year olds
                                    >> are not ready for Radio MB. These exceptions are not the average 10- and
                                    >> 11-yr old. There are almost always exceptions; we are talking about most
                                    >> kids, not the exceptions. If during and after screening, a Scout is
                                    >> found to
                                    >> be an exception, then by all means permit him to take Radio MB.
                                    >>
                                    >> At 14:17 +0000 02/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                                    >> >So, if some have got their licence under age 11, that proves that most
                                    >> >couldn't get a merit badge at that age? Sorry, but there's no logic in
                                    >> >that.
                                    >> >
                                    > > >N3KIP
                                  • Al Katzman
                                    I think we ve missed the point of the Merit Badge program here. It s not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge. It s really about
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
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                                      I think we've missed the point of the Merit Badge program here.  It's not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge.  It's really about teaching the scout an interest that may someday spark another interest in an avocation or vocation.  All the badges are designed to teach scouts a little bit about the subject to whet their appetite.  By screening the scout we are denying him that opportunity.  We aren't training genuises here.  We are giving the scout a bit of information about the subject.  Some badges they will like.  Some they will not.  But by all means let them be the judge of that.  Before one jumps on this note I said in the beginning mentally capable.  I realize there are some badges that the scout may not be physically capable of doing.  I don't think Radio MB is one of those.  We taught 11-17 year old scouts at the Jamboree and most all of them, regardless of the age, learned something about the subject.  And that is the real purpose of the program.

                                      Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                      By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.

                                      73 de Fred

                                      At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                                      >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                                      >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                                      >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.
                                      >
                                      >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
                                      >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they
                                      > won't know what you are talking about.
                                      >
                                      >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
                                      >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I
                                      >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior
                                      >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate classes in
                                      >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
                                      >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
                                      >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
                                      >
                                      >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
                                      >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
                                      >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
                                      >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
                                      >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
                                      >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
                                      >
                                      >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
                                      >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
                                      >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
                                      >
                                      >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK    
                                      >
                                      >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:
                                      >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
                                      >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
                                      >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I
                                      >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
                                      >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp
                                      >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
                                      >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
                                      >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
                                      >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
                                      >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
                                      >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
                                      >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
                                      >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
                                      >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
                                      >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
                                      >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
                                      >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.
                                      >>
                                      >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
                                      >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
                                      >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working
                                      >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
                                      >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular
                                      >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
                                      >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
                                      >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
                                      >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
                                      >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
                                      >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
                                      >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be
                                      >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
                                      >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
                                      >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
                                      >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to
                                      >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze
                                      >over.
                                      >>
                                      >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
                                      >>
                                      >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                                      >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't
                                      >in the book and against BSA policy.  Better watch out on that.  Might
                                      >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point.  It's
                                      >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial
                                      >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the
                                      >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that
                                      >badge.


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                                    • Bill Stewart
                                      The merit badge program is to be started after attaining the First Class rank usually completed by age 12. In the Troop I was involved with we did not allow
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
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                                        The merit badge program is to be started after attaining the First Class
                                        rank usually completed by age 12.
                                        In the Troop I was involved with we did not allow youth to do merit
                                        badges until after they completed the New Scout program.
                                        The New Scout program got them to First Class. At Scout Camp we had them
                                        do some of the simpler merit badges that were usually in the handicraft
                                        area.
                                        After completion of the New Scout program they were allowed to take what
                                        ever they wanted to with guidence from the Scoutmaster and Assistant
                                        Scoutmasters.
                                        So, no I don't think we have missed the point. The merit badges we are
                                        talking about are not required. So, we don't want the Scouts to struggle
                                        through them.
                                        We want them to have fun with them and, oh by the way they might learn
                                        something, too.

                                        Al Katzman wrote:

                                        > I think we've missed the point of the Merit Badge program here. It's
                                        > not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge.
                                        > It's really about teaching the scout an interest that may someday
                                        > spark another interest in an avocation or vocation. All the badges
                                        > are designed to teach scouts a little bit about the subject to whet
                                        > their appetite. By screening the scout we are denying him that
                                        > opportunity. We aren't training genuises here. We are giving the
                                        > scout a bit of information about the subject. Some badges they will
                                        > like. Some they will not. But by all means let them be the judge of
                                        > that. Before one jumps on this note I said in the beginning mentally
                                        > capable. I realize there are some badges that the scout may not be
                                        > physically capable of doing. I don't think Radio MB is one of those.
                                        > We taught 11-17 year old scouts at the Jamboree and most all of them,
                                        > regardless of the age, learned something about the subject. And that
                                        > is the real purpose of the program.
                                        >
                                        > */Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>/* wrote:
                                        >
                                        > By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10-
                                        > and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
                                        >
                                        > 73 de Fred
                                        >
                                        > At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
                                        > >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
                                        > >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
                                        > >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
                                        > phrased it.
                                        > >
                                        > >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
                                        > >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then
                                        > they
                                        > > won't know what you are talking about.
                                        > >
                                        > >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
                                        > >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but
                                        > then I
                                        > >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no
                                        > prior
                                        > >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate
                                        > classes in
                                        > >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
                                        > >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
                                        > >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
                                        > >
                                        > >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
                                        > >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
                                        > >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
                                        > >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
                                        > >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
                                        > >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
                                        > >
                                        > >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
                                        > >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
                                        > >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
                                        > >
                                        > >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
                                        > >
                                        > >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD
                                        > <k2frd@m...> wrote:
                                        > >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
                                        > >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
                                        > >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't
                                        > say I
                                        > >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
                                        > >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout
                                        > Camp
                                        > >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
                                        > >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
                                        > >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
                                        > >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
                                        > >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
                                        > >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
                                        > >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
                                        > >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
                                        > >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
                                        > >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
                                        > >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
                                        > >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life,
                                        > and Eagle.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
                                        > >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
                                        > >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout
                                        > working
                                        > >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
                                        > >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a
                                        > particular
                                        > >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
                                        > >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
                                        > >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
                                        > >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
                                        > >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
                                        > >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
                                        > >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it
                                        > may be
                                        > >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
                                        > >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
                                        > >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
                                        > >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger
                                        > Scouts to
                                        > >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes
                                        > glaze
                                        > >over.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
                                        > >>
                                        > >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
                                        > >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that
                                        > aren't
                                        > >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
                                        > >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
                                        > >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a
                                        > partial
                                        > >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off
                                        > on the
                                        > >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take
                                        > that
                                        > >badge.
                                        >
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                                      • kimbare
                                        I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
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                                          Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA around the corner I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all  special ed.....
                                          I do the radio merit badge all the time..I cover all the  requirements   and have never had anyone, by the time I was done  not under stand or “pass”...I also do the girl scouts....which I AM  allowed to add to the requirements since that 1 is just a patch program....

                                          I have after all is said and done some scouts look for me  and sit in on occasions even after they have passed...and some have gotten their liscense...
                                          Merit badges are @ wetting their appitite in areas they would maybe never have tried

                                          The requirements are not hard but then again I am a teacher and a mom and deal with special ed ...I do a lot of fill in info and start out with  its use, mon bouce and sky bounce with loads of super balls to help demo ,etc...well any way the point is I believe it is in thepresentation...and yes some is supposed to be done ahead of time, but It is just as easy to present it and question them to make sure that they under stand it as it is to just make sure the requirements are done

                                          For every merit badge  counsellor out there, there will always be an opinion but this is just the way I do it....

                                          ky2mmm
                                        • Fred Stevens K2FRD
                                          I think we have all had different experiences while teaching Radio Merit Badge. I ve been teaching it since before 1998, always in a group setting (4 to 10)
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Oct 3, 2005
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                                            I think we have all had different experiences while teaching Radio Merit Badge. I've been teaching it since before 1998, always in a group setting (4 to 10) rather than just a couple Scouts. There's certainly more flexibility with only a couple since if more in-depth instruction/explanation is needed, the time can be taken to teach it while with a larger group, an instructor would lose a number of the older more advanced Scouts in a class if s/he had to take one or two sessions to explain the basic nature of electricity (i.e., where the electrons come from, where they go, how they get there, all this before 110vac, 60 HZ leads into frequency) to a Scout who either through lack of conceptual ability or educational background needs to start from scratch (e.g., has no idea how household electricity works). Especially in a Scout camp setting where the instructor is given five 1.5-hr sessions and no more, this detailed approach will not work since there isn't enough time.

                                            The original question on this thread centered around learning problems of younger Scouts who could not grasp the abstract concept of electricity. Those who could not had to be spoon-fed the information without truly understanding how electricity works and, by inference and in succession, how frequency and radiowave propagation works. At some point, a Radio MB counsellor must decide (1) if the Scout actually understands the requirements and can actually do them or (2) if the Scout must merely feed back to the instructor what the instructor has said to secure the merit badge without understanding and thus be awarded the merit badge without really learning anything or (3) if the Scout should wait a year or two before undertaking the merit badge and securing some understanding from it. Personally, I prefer not to sign off on Radio MB (or any other MB I instruct) until I am assured that a Scout understands what the merit badge is about and has actually completed the requirements rather than just regurgitated verbatim back to me what I said.

                                            Again, the merit badge program was designed for Scouts who have already completed First Class rank, vis a vis 12-yr olds and older. It is not designed for new Scouts who have not yet completed Second nor First Class. There are always exceptions and exceptional entry-level Scouts who would be able to successfully and meaningfully complete Radio MB at any time; some probably could have done it as Tiger Cubs. These are future Eagle Scouts.

                                            73 and YIS de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS

                                            At 16:54 -0400 03/10/2005, kimbare wrote:
                                            >I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all special ed.....
                                            >I do the radio merit badge all the time..I cover all the requirements and have never had anyone, by the time I was done not under stand or "pass"...I also do the girl scouts....which I AM allowed to add to the requirements since that 1 is just a patch program....
                                            >
                                            >I have after all is said and done some scouts look for me and sit in on occasions even after they have passed...and some have gotten their liscense...
                                            >Merit badges are @ wetting their appitite in areas they would maybe never have tried
                                            >
                                            >The requirements are not hard but then again I am a teacher and a mom and deal with special ed ...I do a lot of fill in info and start out with its use, mon bouce and sky bounce with loads of super balls to help demo ,etc...well any way the point is I believe it is in thepresentation...and yes some is supposed to be done ahead of time, but It is just as easy to present it and question them to make sure that they under stand it as it is to just make sure the requirements are done
                                            >
                                            >For every merit badge counsellor out there, there will always be an opinion but this is just the way I do it....
                                            >
                                            >ky2mmm

                                            --
                                            73 de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS
                                            http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html
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