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Re: scout 50 miler

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  • Steven C. Gallafent
    ... I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion: Bad weather hinders search for pair
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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      > I didn't come up with any articles with unitas scout in the archives.

      I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion:

      Bad weather hinders search for pair
      http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510055025,00.html

      Woman killed by lightning in Uintas
      http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510047711,00.html

      4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
      http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html

      Steve

      Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
      steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
      "I used to be a Fox"
    • davifish@bellsouth.net
      Bill, Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
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        Bill,

        Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up the Scoutmaster in the event of a lawsuit.

        73,
        Dan KG4SDJ

        >
        > From: Bill Stewart <w2bsa@...>
        > Date: 2003/12/29 Mon PM 11:16:50 EST
        > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler
        >
        > Folks,
        > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
        > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
        > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
        >
        > The age appropriate activities list is at
        > http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
        > Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various
        > camping activities including high-adventure camping:
        > http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm
        >
        > 73,
        > Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing
        > Crew 80
        >
        >
        > Dan Fisher wrote:
        >
        > > Mark,
        > >
        > > I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a
        > > police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm
        > > not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have
        > > thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your
        > > thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the
        > > other scoutmaster.
        > >
        > > I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years
        > > ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are
        > > various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout
        > > leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand
        > > Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged
        > > boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the
        > > Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As
        > > a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and
        > > exhaustion. At least one boy died.
        > >
        > > I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of
        > > those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my
        > > profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It
        > > makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old
        > > Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my
        > > viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a
        > > Venturing crew.
        > >
        > > 73,
        > > Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
        > > Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
        > > Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council
        > >
        > > Mark wrote:
        > >
        > >> Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
        > >> I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
        > >> and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
        > >> to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
        > >> high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
        > >> up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
        > >> returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
        > >> (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
        > >> also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
        > >> this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
        > >> day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
        > >> would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
        > >> this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
        > >> What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
        > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
        > >>
        > >> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
        > >> subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
        > >>
        > >> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
        > >> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
        > >>
        > >> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
        > >> http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
        > >>
        > >> Visit the "Adventure Radio Society"
        > >> http://www.natworld.com/ars/
        > >>
        > >> ScoutRadio start page:
        > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
        > >> email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
        > >>
        > >> Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
        > >> Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >> List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > >>
        > >> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >>
        > >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
        > >>
        > >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > >> ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >> <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        > >>
        > >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
        > >
        > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
        > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
        > >
        > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
        > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
        > >
        > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
        > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
        > >
        > > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
        > >
        > > ScoutRadio start page:
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
        > > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
        > >
        > > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
        > > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > ADVERTISEMENT
        > > <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cmdo7np/M=266841.4316200.5507732.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705066162:HM/EXP=1072841945/A=1911856/R=0/*http://www.lifescapeinc.com/picasa/landing.php?capid=222&caId=1985>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
        > >
        > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        > >
        > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        > >
        > >
        >
        >

        73,
        Dan KG4SDJ
      • ClayMayrose@aol.com
        Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision. It
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
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          Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision.  It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that happen.

          Clay WA6LBU
          Wellston, OK

          In a message dated 12/29/03 10:28:12 PM Central Standard Time, steve@... writes:


          4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
          http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html


        • Steven C. Gallafent
          ... answer... I ve read both of these and neither says 12-13 year old Boy Scouts should not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas. :) It s been a while since
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
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            > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
            > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
            > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

            > Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
            answer...

            I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
            not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)

            It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
            remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.

            According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
            appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
            which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.

            The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:

            Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
            designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
            "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
            problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
            occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
            aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.

            And this:

            All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
            least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
            the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
            and safety of the youth in his or her care.

            And this:

            Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
            trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
            judgment.

            My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
            very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
            with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.

            Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
            units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
            units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
            the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
            and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
            would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
            trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
            suggested.

            With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
            had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
            be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
            bad experience.

            I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
            original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
            going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
            had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
            for their boys.

            > Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
            not
            > see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
            supervision.
            > It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
            > happen.

            I used to say that very thing.

            There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
            couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
            out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
            wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.

            She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
            had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
            were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
            dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
            leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
            open and their legs hanging out.

            I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.

            Steve

            Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
            steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
            "I used to be a Fox"
          • Bill Stewart
            Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason that
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 31, 2003
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              Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason
              that Venturing is for those 14 and over. It primarily does High-Adventure, whether it's backcountry camping and hiking or assisting the Red Cross in shelter operations.
              Look  at the age guidelines in the GSS.

              73,

              Bill Stewart, W2BSA

              Steven C. Gallafent wrote:
              I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
              Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
              folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
                  
                
              Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
                  
              answer...
              
              I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
              not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)
              
              It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
              remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.
              
              According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
              appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
              which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.
              
              The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:
              
              Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
              designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
              "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
              problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
              occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
              aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.
              
              And this:
              
              All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
              least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
              the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
              and safety of the youth in his or her care.
              
              And this:
              
              Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
              trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
              judgment.
              
              My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
              very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
              with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.
              
              Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
              units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
              units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
              the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
              and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
              would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
              trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
              suggested.
              
              With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
              had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
              be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
              bad experience.
              
              I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
              original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
              going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
              had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
              for their boys.
              
                
              Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
                  
              not
                
              see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
                  
              supervision.
                
              It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
              happen.
                  
              I used to say that very thing.
              
              There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
              couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
              out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
              wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.
              
              She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
              had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
              were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
              dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
              leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
              open and their legs hanging out.
              
              I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.
              
              Steve
              
              Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
              steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
              "I used to be a Fox"
              
              
              Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
              
              Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
              
              Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
              http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
              
              Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
              http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
              
              Visit the &quot;Adventure Radio Society&quot; http://www.natworld.com/ars/
              
              ScoutRadio start page:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
              
              Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com 
              Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
              List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com 
              
              SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES 
              
              Yahoo! Groups Links
              
              To visit your group on the web, go to:
               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
              
              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
               ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              
              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
               http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
              
              
              
                
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