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Re: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler

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  • Bill Stewart
    Folks, I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don t just guess
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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      Folks,
      I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

      The age appropriate activities list is at http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
      Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm

      73,
       Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


      Dan Fisher wrote:
      Mark,

      I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

      I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

      I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

      73,
      Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
      Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
      Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

      Mark wrote:
      Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
      I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
      and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
      to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
      high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
      up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
      returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
      (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
      also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
      this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
      day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
      would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
      this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
      What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




      Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

      Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

      Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
      http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

      Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
      http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

      Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

      ScoutRadio start page:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

      Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
      Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

      SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES




      Yahoo! Groups Links



      Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

      Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

      Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
      http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

      Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
      http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

      Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

      ScoutRadio start page:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

      Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
      Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

      SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





      Yahoo! Groups Links

    • Steven C. Gallafent
      ... I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion: Bad weather hinders search for pair
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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        > I didn't come up with any articles with unitas scout in the archives.

        I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion:

        Bad weather hinders search for pair
        http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510055025,00.html

        Woman killed by lightning in Uintas
        http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510047711,00.html

        4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
        http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html

        Steve

        Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
        steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
        "I used to be a Fox"
      • Bill Stewart
        Folks, Allow me to correct one link. Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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          Folks,
          Allow me to correct one link.
          Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html#aa

          73,

          Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


          Bill Stewart wrote:
          Folks,
          I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

          The age appropriate activities list is at http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
          Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm

          73,
           Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


          Dan Fisher wrote:
          Mark,

          I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

          I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

          I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

          73,
          Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
          Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
          Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

          Mark wrote:
          Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
          I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
          and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
          to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
          high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
          up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
          returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
          (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
          also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
          this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
          day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
          would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
          this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
          What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




          Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

          Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

          Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
          http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

          Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
          http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

          Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

          ScoutRadio start page:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

          Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
          Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

          SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES




          Yahoo! Groups Links



          Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

          Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

          Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
          http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

          Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
          http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

          Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

          ScoutRadio start page:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

          Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
          Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

          SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





          Yahoo! Groups Links



          Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

          Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

          Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
          http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

          Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
          http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

          Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

          ScoutRadio start page:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

          Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
          Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

          SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





          Yahoo! Groups Links

        • davifish@bellsouth.net
          Bill, Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
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            Bill,

            Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up the Scoutmaster in the event of a lawsuit.

            73,
            Dan KG4SDJ

            >
            > From: Bill Stewart <w2bsa@...>
            > Date: 2003/12/29 Mon PM 11:16:50 EST
            > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler
            >
            > Folks,
            > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
            > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
            > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
            >
            > The age appropriate activities list is at
            > http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
            > Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various
            > camping activities including high-adventure camping:
            > http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm
            >
            > 73,
            > Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing
            > Crew 80
            >
            >
            > Dan Fisher wrote:
            >
            > > Mark,
            > >
            > > I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a
            > > police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm
            > > not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have
            > > thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your
            > > thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the
            > > other scoutmaster.
            > >
            > > I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years
            > > ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are
            > > various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout
            > > leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand
            > > Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged
            > > boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the
            > > Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As
            > > a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and
            > > exhaustion. At least one boy died.
            > >
            > > I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of
            > > those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my
            > > profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It
            > > makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old
            > > Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my
            > > viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a
            > > Venturing crew.
            > >
            > > 73,
            > > Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
            > > Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
            > > Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council
            > >
            > > Mark wrote:
            > >
            > >> Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
            > >> I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
            > >> and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
            > >> to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
            > >> high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
            > >> up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
            > >> returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
            > >> (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
            > >> also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
            > >> this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
            > >> day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
            > >> would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
            > >> this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
            > >> What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
            > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
            > >>
            > >> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
            > >> subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
            > >>
            > >> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
            > >> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
            > >>
            > >> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
            > >> http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
            > >>
            > >> Visit the "Adventure Radio Society"
            > >> http://www.natworld.com/ars/
            > >>
            > >> ScoutRadio start page:
            > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
            > >> email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
            > >>
            > >> Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
            > >> Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >> List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > >>
            > >> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >>
            > >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
            > >>
            > >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > >> ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >> <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
            > >>
            > >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
            > >
            > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
            > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
            > >
            > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
            > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
            > >
            > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
            > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
            > >
            > > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
            > >
            > > ScoutRadio start page:
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
            > > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
            > >
            > > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
            > > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > ADVERTISEMENT
            > > <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cmdo7np/M=266841.4316200.5507732.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705066162:HM/EXP=1072841945/A=1911856/R=0/*http://www.lifescapeinc.com/picasa/landing.php?capid=222&caId=1985>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
            > >
            > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
            > >
            > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
            > >
            > >
            >
            >

            73,
            Dan KG4SDJ
          • ClayMayrose@aol.com
            Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision. It
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
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              Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision.  It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that happen.

              Clay WA6LBU
              Wellston, OK

              In a message dated 12/29/03 10:28:12 PM Central Standard Time, steve@... writes:


              4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
              http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html


            • Steven C. Gallafent
              ... answer... I ve read both of these and neither says 12-13 year old Boy Scouts should not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas. :) It s been a while since
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
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                > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

                > Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
                answer...

                I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
                not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)

                It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
                remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.

                According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
                appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
                which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.

                The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:

                Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
                designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
                "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
                problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
                occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
                aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.

                And this:

                All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
                least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
                the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
                and safety of the youth in his or her care.

                And this:

                Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
                trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
                judgment.

                My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
                very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
                with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.

                Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
                units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
                units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
                the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
                and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
                would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
                trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
                suggested.

                With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
                had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
                be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
                bad experience.

                I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
                original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
                going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
                had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
                for their boys.

                > Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
                not
                > see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
                supervision.
                > It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
                > happen.

                I used to say that very thing.

                There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
                couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
                out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
                wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.

                She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
                had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
                were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
                dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
                leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
                open and their legs hanging out.

                I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.

                Steve

                Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                "I used to be a Fox"
              • Bill Stewart
                Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason that
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 31, 2003
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                  Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason
                  that Venturing is for those 14 and over. It primarily does High-Adventure, whether it's backcountry camping and hiking or assisting the Red Cross in shelter operations.
                  Look  at the age guidelines in the GSS.

                  73,

                  Bill Stewart, W2BSA

                  Steven C. Gallafent wrote:
                  I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                  Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                  folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
                      
                    
                  Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
                      
                  answer...
                  
                  I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
                  not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)
                  
                  It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
                  remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.
                  
                  According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
                  appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
                  which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.
                  
                  The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:
                  
                  Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
                  designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
                  "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
                  problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
                  occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
                  aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.
                  
                  And this:
                  
                  All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
                  least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
                  the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
                  and safety of the youth in his or her care.
                  
                  And this:
                  
                  Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
                  trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
                  judgment.
                  
                  My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
                  very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
                  with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.
                  
                  Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
                  units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
                  units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
                  the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
                  and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
                  would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
                  trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
                  suggested.
                  
                  With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
                  had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
                  be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
                  bad experience.
                  
                  I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
                  original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
                  going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
                  had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
                  for their boys.
                  
                    
                  Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
                      
                  not
                    
                  see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
                      
                  supervision.
                    
                  It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
                  happen.
                      
                  I used to say that very thing.
                  
                  There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
                  couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
                  out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
                  wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.
                  
                  She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
                  had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
                  were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
                  dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
                  leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
                  open and their legs hanging out.
                  
                  I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.
                  
                  Steve
                  
                  Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                  steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                  "I used to be a Fox"
                  
                  
                  Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                  
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