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Re: scout 50 miler

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  • Dave Colter
    Hi Mark, I m going to add my voice to the chorus of caution. I ve been a backpacker and winter climber for 40 years, and I ve lead dozens of tough trips for
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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      Hi Mark,
      I'm going to add my voice to the chorus of caution. I've been a backpacker
      and winter climber for 40 years, and I've lead dozens of tough trips for
      many age groups. The trip you describe is far too much for most 12-13 year
      old Scouts, unless they all have been backpacking with their families for
      many years, as my son did from age seven. If it was flatland, like Ohio or
      Oklahoma, I'd say, "go for it," but not in the mountains at any altitude.
      These kids are not likely to have either the skills or stamina. (I once made
      the mistake of taking a younger group on a moderate 4 mile in/out early
      winter trip and despite good preparation, we had a devil of a time with cold
      and immature kids - and ticked-off parents when we got home.) We've always
      limited 50-milers (and any really challenging expeditions, like winter
      climbs above treeline) to First Class Scouts 14 and older. The age
      requirement was partly for stamina and maturity, and the First Class
      requirement was to be sure they had a little experience and all the basic
      camping skills. We also did many shorter weekend trips and long days hikes
      in preparation, beginning a year earlier. They started out with day packs on
      the day trips, working up to full packs, and then adding more mileage, with
      our longest day being about 10 miles in mountains. We did a bunch of 5 mile
      in/5mile out overnights, sometimes two in one month.

      The big problem wasn't getting the Scouts in shape - although they certainly
      needed it - it was my ASMs and two dads! They really had to work hard to
      overcome soft and unused leg and back muscles - and cardio-vascular
      capacity. We also had two "reserve" dads and a mom who were available as
      last minute stand-ins just in case one of the primary adults had to bail at
      the last minute. You usually can't afford to be short an adult. The minimum
      is three, but four is much better. Helps with double-deep leadership should
      the group need to split up in an emergency. Also, consider the size of the
      group you are taking on the trail. In most designated wilderness areas, the
      USFS limits you to a maximum group size of 8-10. Even in non-regulated
      areas, it's a good idea. Most back-country camping areas aren't large enough
      to handle big groups, especially if there are other hikers using them as
      well. It is also good policy from an ecology standpoint. I have done some
      great trips with 8 older boys and 2 adults. Large groups also tend to get
      dirty looks from other hikers, and Lord knows, BSA can't withstand too many
      more dirty looks!

      On the 50-miler, I think our longest day was 11 miles. We also found a way
      to do re-supply mid-route (at a road crossing) coordinated via 2 meters.
      (Six of my Scouts and two ASMs were hams, so we had plenty of radios.) The
      mid-route resupply cut way down on the load everyone had to carry. When you
      plan the food/water/group gear load, be sure to "under-load" everyone. If
      you figure someone ought to be able to carry 8 pounds of group gear, plan
      for 5 or 6. That way, if Johnny gets the sniffles on the day before the trip
      and mommy keeps him home, you won't be overloading the rest of the group
      with gear. Actually, that is more of a problem with 11-13 year olds than
      14-17 year olds. We did have a secret weapon in the "heavy hauling"
      department for a few years. While loading up before departure one trip, we
      discovered that Tyler's patrol had bought some canned goods - about 15
      pounds of them. Tyler was a 14yo PL, and most of his guys were younger and
      smaller. I always knew Tyler was pretty rugged, but his Dad said "let's
      stick all those cans in the bottom of Tyler's pack - he'll never notice." I
      had my doubts, but we did it, and never heard a word from Tyler until we
      reached our campsite. As he pulled out the cans, he said off-handedly, "I
      thought this seemed a little heavy," and never mentioned it again. Tyler
      made Eagle a few years later and is today a graduate student in wildlife
      biology at the U of Alaska. I saw him at Thanksgiving, and he has grown into
      one impressive young man!

      But I digress. Bottom line - the trip your SM proposes is too much for those
      little guys - do something easier as a prep trip, and plan the big one for
      next year.
      73,
      Dave Colter WA1ZCN
      Griswold Scout Reservation
      Radio and Telephone Department
      (Retired Scoutmaster, Troop 71 New London, NH)
      www.geocities.com/nhscouter
      www.scouttraveler.org

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Mark [mailto:markcm37@...]
      > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 18:48
      > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler
      >
      >
      > Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
      > I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
      > and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
      > to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
      > high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
      > up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
      > returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
      > (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
      > also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
      > this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
      > day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
      > would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
      > this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
      > What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark
    • Dan Fisher
      Mark, I m also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I m 50 years old (an old guy), but I m not sure *I*
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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        Mark,

        I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

        I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

        I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

        73,
        Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
        Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
        Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

        Mark wrote:
        Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
        I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
        and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
        to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
        high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
        up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
        returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
        (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
        also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
        this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
        day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
        would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
        this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
        What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




        Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

        Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

        Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
        http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

        Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
        http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

        Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

        ScoutRadio start page:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

        Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
        Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

        SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES




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      • Bill Stewart
        Folks, I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don t just guess
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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          Folks,
          I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

          The age appropriate activities list is at http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
          Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm

          73,
           Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


          Dan Fisher wrote:
          Mark,

          I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

          I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

          I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

          73,
          Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
          Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
          Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

          Mark wrote:
          Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
          I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
          and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
          to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
          high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
          up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
          returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
          (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
          also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
          this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
          day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
          would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
          this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
          What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




          Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

          Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

          Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
          http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

          Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
          http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

          Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

          ScoutRadio start page:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

          Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
          Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

          SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES




          Yahoo! Groups Links



          Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

          Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

          Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
          http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

          Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
          http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

          Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

          ScoutRadio start page:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

          Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
          Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

          SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





          Yahoo! Groups Links

        • Steven C. Gallafent
          ... I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion: Bad weather hinders search for pair
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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            > I didn't come up with any articles with unitas scout in the archives.

            I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion:

            Bad weather hinders search for pair
            http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510055025,00.html

            Woman killed by lightning in Uintas
            http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510047711,00.html

            4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
            http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html

            Steve

            Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
            steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
            "I used to be a Fox"
          • Bill Stewart
            Folks, Allow me to correct one link. Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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              Folks,
              Allow me to correct one link.
              Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html#aa

              73,

              Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


              Bill Stewart wrote:
              Folks,
              I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

              The age appropriate activities list is at http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
              Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm

              73,
               Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


              Dan Fisher wrote:
              Mark,

              I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

              I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

              I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

              73,
              Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
              Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
              Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

              Mark wrote:
              Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
              I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
              and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
              to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
              high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
              up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
              returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
              (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
              also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
              this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
              day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
              would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
              this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
              What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




              Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

              Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

              Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
              http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

              Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
              http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

              Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

              ScoutRadio start page:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

              Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
              Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

              SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES




              Yahoo! Groups Links



              Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

              Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

              Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
              http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

              Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
              http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

              Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

              ScoutRadio start page:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

              Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
              Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

              SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





              Yahoo! Groups Links



              Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

              Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

              Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
              http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

              Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
              http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

              Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

              ScoutRadio start page:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

              Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
              Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

              SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





              Yahoo! Groups Links

            • davifish@bellsouth.net
              Bill, Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
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                Bill,

                Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up the Scoutmaster in the event of a lawsuit.

                73,
                Dan KG4SDJ

                >
                > From: Bill Stewart <w2bsa@...>
                > Date: 2003/12/29 Mon PM 11:16:50 EST
                > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler
                >
                > Folks,
                > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
                >
                > The age appropriate activities list is at
                > http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
                > Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various
                > camping activities including high-adventure camping:
                > http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm
                >
                > 73,
                > Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing
                > Crew 80
                >
                >
                > Dan Fisher wrote:
                >
                > > Mark,
                > >
                > > I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a
                > > police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm
                > > not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have
                > > thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your
                > > thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the
                > > other scoutmaster.
                > >
                > > I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years
                > > ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are
                > > various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout
                > > leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand
                > > Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged
                > > boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the
                > > Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As
                > > a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and
                > > exhaustion. At least one boy died.
                > >
                > > I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of
                > > those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my
                > > profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It
                > > makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old
                > > Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my
                > > viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a
                > > Venturing crew.
                > >
                > > 73,
                > > Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                > > Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                > > Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council
                > >
                > > Mark wrote:
                > >
                > >> Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                > >> I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                > >> and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                > >> to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                > >> high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                > >> up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                > >> returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                > >> (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                > >> also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                > >> this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                > >> day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                > >> would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                > >> this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                > >> What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                > >>
                > >> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                > >> subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                > >>
                > >> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                > >> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                > >>
                > >> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                > >> http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                > >>
                > >> Visit the "Adventure Radio Society"
                > >> http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                > >>
                > >> ScoutRadio start page:
                > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                > >> email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                > >>
                > >> Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                > >> Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >> List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                > >>
                > >> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >>
                > >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
                > >>
                > >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > >> ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >> <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                > >>
                > >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                > >
                > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                > >
                > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                > >
                > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                > >
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              • ClayMayrose@aol.com
                Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision. It
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision.  It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that happen.

                  Clay WA6LBU
                  Wellston, OK

                  In a message dated 12/29/03 10:28:12 PM Central Standard Time, steve@... writes:


                  4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
                  http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html


                • Steven C. Gallafent
                  ... answer... I ve read both of these and neither says 12-13 year old Boy Scouts should not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas. :) It s been a while since
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                    > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                    > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

                    > Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
                    answer...

                    I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
                    not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)

                    It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
                    remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.

                    According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
                    appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
                    which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.

                    The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:

                    Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
                    designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
                    "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
                    problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
                    occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
                    aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.

                    And this:

                    All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
                    least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
                    the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
                    and safety of the youth in his or her care.

                    And this:

                    Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
                    trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
                    judgment.

                    My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
                    very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
                    with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.

                    Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
                    units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
                    units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
                    the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
                    and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
                    would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
                    trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
                    suggested.

                    With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
                    had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
                    be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
                    bad experience.

                    I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
                    original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
                    going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
                    had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
                    for their boys.

                    > Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
                    not
                    > see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
                    supervision.
                    > It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
                    > happen.

                    I used to say that very thing.

                    There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
                    couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
                    out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
                    wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.

                    She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
                    had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
                    were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
                    dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
                    leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
                    open and their legs hanging out.

                    I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.

                    Steve

                    Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                    steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                    "I used to be a Fox"
                  • Bill Stewart
                    Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason that
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 31, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason
                      that Venturing is for those 14 and over. It primarily does High-Adventure, whether it's backcountry camping and hiking or assisting the Red Cross in shelter operations.
                      Look  at the age guidelines in the GSS.

                      73,

                      Bill Stewart, W2BSA

                      Steven C. Gallafent wrote:
                      I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                      Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                      folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
                          
                        
                      Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
                          
                      answer...
                      
                      I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
                      not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)
                      
                      It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
                      remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.
                      
                      According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
                      appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
                      which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.
                      
                      The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:
                      
                      Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
                      designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
                      "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
                      problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
                      occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
                      aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.
                      
                      And this:
                      
                      All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
                      least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
                      the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
                      and safety of the youth in his or her care.
                      
                      And this:
                      
                      Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
                      trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
                      judgment.
                      
                      My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
                      very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
                      with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.
                      
                      Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
                      units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
                      units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
                      the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
                      and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
                      would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
                      trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
                      suggested.
                      
                      With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
                      had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
                      be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
                      bad experience.
                      
                      I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
                      original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
                      going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
                      had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
                      for their boys.
                      
                        
                      Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
                          
                      not
                        
                      see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
                          
                      supervision.
                        
                      It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
                      happen.
                          
                      I used to say that very thing.
                      
                      There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
                      couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
                      out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
                      wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.
                      
                      She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
                      had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
                      were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
                      dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
                      leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
                      open and their legs hanging out.
                      
                      I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.
                      
                      Steve
                      
                      Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                      steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                      "I used to be a Fox"
                      
                      
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