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Re: Scout 50 miler

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  • Chris Kelly
    Howdy: I think that a 50 miler without prior experience would likely be a bad, if not dangerous, experience. I have been a backpacker since my college years
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
      Howdy:
      I think that a 50 miler without prior experience would likely
      be a bad, if not dangerous, experience.

      I have been a backpacker since my college years (1970s) and
      a scout leader for about 8 years. This summer I took a few scouts
      to Philmont, a 70 mile 10 day trek rated "strenuous". The scouts
      were all at least 14 years old, but two who were age 14 were of
      light build and could not have made it without adults to carry
      part of their share of load.

      My most important paragraph of advice:
      If you would like to have scouts take grand trips like this, in the
      coming Summer, start them conditioning NOW. Start with 1, 2, and 3 day
      backpack trips ASAP, and shake down the gear and clothing that they
      will take. Anybody who has not completed at LEAST 2 or 3 2-night
      trips should not be allowed to go.

      Most Scouts absolutely CAN manage a 50 miler, if they "are prepared".
      It will take a few trips to work out what to take and how to use it
      and what not to take on the big trek. We knew to take very little,
      and still cast away 25% of our gear before hitting the trail at Philmont.
      Unless you do the training trips, your troop will not be prepared.
      The first trip may only be 3 miles one way, but it's enough to do gear
      shakedown. They will learn about stoves and cooking with them,
      learn they don't need that "messkit" they got for Christmas just a
      large lexan mug or bowl and a lexan spoon, etc.

      By the time we completed the last (long) day, we were joking about
      carrying all the extra postage stamps we had. The adult packs were
      running 50-plus pounds, and when we carried a full load of water,
      they weighed more. This would be way too much for younger scouts.
      Their mothers will want them to take everything but the sink,
      and they know they only need 1 pair of underwear per week...natural
      tension will arise. (Drop unnecessary gear (in the cars) at the
      trailhead away from Mom's worried eyes).

      Also critical will be foot care. This is a tough call for growing boys
      because good hiking boots will be very important to completing a 50 miler
      in mountains, and it's tough to ask some parents to cough up that kind of
      money for something they will soon outgrow. One of our scouts had
      high quality but oversized boots and the last, long day he was in real
      pain coming down off the Tooth of Time ridge.

      Itinerary: Plan short stretches the first few days to allow for conditioning.
      It's surprising how soon you adapt to the pack and the trail, if
      you are already in reasonable physical shape. Still, only plan about
      5 miles or so the first couple days, especially if ascending. Descending
      is harder on the feet and knees, ascent requires lungs and muscle.

      Good luck and 73,
      Chris Kelly, K0PF
      Trustee W0BSA
    • Dave Colter
      Hi Mark, I m going to add my voice to the chorus of caution. I ve been a backpacker and winter climber for 40 years, and I ve lead dozens of tough trips for
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
        Hi Mark,
        I'm going to add my voice to the chorus of caution. I've been a backpacker
        and winter climber for 40 years, and I've lead dozens of tough trips for
        many age groups. The trip you describe is far too much for most 12-13 year
        old Scouts, unless they all have been backpacking with their families for
        many years, as my son did from age seven. If it was flatland, like Ohio or
        Oklahoma, I'd say, "go for it," but not in the mountains at any altitude.
        These kids are not likely to have either the skills or stamina. (I once made
        the mistake of taking a younger group on a moderate 4 mile in/out early
        winter trip and despite good preparation, we had a devil of a time with cold
        and immature kids - and ticked-off parents when we got home.) We've always
        limited 50-milers (and any really challenging expeditions, like winter
        climbs above treeline) to First Class Scouts 14 and older. The age
        requirement was partly for stamina and maturity, and the First Class
        requirement was to be sure they had a little experience and all the basic
        camping skills. We also did many shorter weekend trips and long days hikes
        in preparation, beginning a year earlier. They started out with day packs on
        the day trips, working up to full packs, and then adding more mileage, with
        our longest day being about 10 miles in mountains. We did a bunch of 5 mile
        in/5mile out overnights, sometimes two in one month.

        The big problem wasn't getting the Scouts in shape - although they certainly
        needed it - it was my ASMs and two dads! They really had to work hard to
        overcome soft and unused leg and back muscles - and cardio-vascular
        capacity. We also had two "reserve" dads and a mom who were available as
        last minute stand-ins just in case one of the primary adults had to bail at
        the last minute. You usually can't afford to be short an adult. The minimum
        is three, but four is much better. Helps with double-deep leadership should
        the group need to split up in an emergency. Also, consider the size of the
        group you are taking on the trail. In most designated wilderness areas, the
        USFS limits you to a maximum group size of 8-10. Even in non-regulated
        areas, it's a good idea. Most back-country camping areas aren't large enough
        to handle big groups, especially if there are other hikers using them as
        well. It is also good policy from an ecology standpoint. I have done some
        great trips with 8 older boys and 2 adults. Large groups also tend to get
        dirty looks from other hikers, and Lord knows, BSA can't withstand too many
        more dirty looks!

        On the 50-miler, I think our longest day was 11 miles. We also found a way
        to do re-supply mid-route (at a road crossing) coordinated via 2 meters.
        (Six of my Scouts and two ASMs were hams, so we had plenty of radios.) The
        mid-route resupply cut way down on the load everyone had to carry. When you
        plan the food/water/group gear load, be sure to "under-load" everyone. If
        you figure someone ought to be able to carry 8 pounds of group gear, plan
        for 5 or 6. That way, if Johnny gets the sniffles on the day before the trip
        and mommy keeps him home, you won't be overloading the rest of the group
        with gear. Actually, that is more of a problem with 11-13 year olds than
        14-17 year olds. We did have a secret weapon in the "heavy hauling"
        department for a few years. While loading up before departure one trip, we
        discovered that Tyler's patrol had bought some canned goods - about 15
        pounds of them. Tyler was a 14yo PL, and most of his guys were younger and
        smaller. I always knew Tyler was pretty rugged, but his Dad said "let's
        stick all those cans in the bottom of Tyler's pack - he'll never notice." I
        had my doubts, but we did it, and never heard a word from Tyler until we
        reached our campsite. As he pulled out the cans, he said off-handedly, "I
        thought this seemed a little heavy," and never mentioned it again. Tyler
        made Eagle a few years later and is today a graduate student in wildlife
        biology at the U of Alaska. I saw him at Thanksgiving, and he has grown into
        one impressive young man!

        But I digress. Bottom line - the trip your SM proposes is too much for those
        little guys - do something easier as a prep trip, and plan the big one for
        next year.
        73,
        Dave Colter WA1ZCN
        Griswold Scout Reservation
        Radio and Telephone Department
        (Retired Scoutmaster, Troop 71 New London, NH)
        www.geocities.com/nhscouter
        www.scouttraveler.org

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Mark [mailto:markcm37@...]
        > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 18:48
        > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler
        >
        >
        > Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
        > I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
        > and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
        > to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
        > high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
        > up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
        > returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
        > (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
        > also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
        > this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
        > day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
        > would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
        > this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
        > What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark
      • Dan Fisher
        Mark, I m also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I m 50 years old (an old guy), but I m not sure *I*
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
          Mark,

          I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

          I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

          I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

          73,
          Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
          Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
          Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

          Mark wrote:
          Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
          I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
          and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
          to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
          high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
          up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
          returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
          (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
          also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
          this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
          day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
          would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
          this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
          What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




          Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

          Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

          Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
          http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

          Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
          http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

          Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

          ScoutRadio start page:
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          Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
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        • Bill Stewart
          Folks, I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don t just guess
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
            Folks,
            I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

            The age appropriate activities list is at http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
            Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm

            73,
             Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


            Dan Fisher wrote:
            Mark,

            I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

            I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

            I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

            73,
            Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
            Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
            Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

            Mark wrote:
            Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
            I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
            and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
            to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
            high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
            up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
            returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
            (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
            also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
            this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
            day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
            would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
            this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
            What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




            Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

            Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

            Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
            http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

            Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
            http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

            Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

            ScoutRadio start page:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

            Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
            Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

            SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES




            Yahoo! Groups Links



            Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

            Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

            Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
            http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

            Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
            http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

            Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

            ScoutRadio start page:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

            Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
            Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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            SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





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          • Steven C. Gallafent
            ... I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion: Bad weather hinders search for pair
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
              > I didn't come up with any articles with unitas scout in the archives.

              I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion:

              Bad weather hinders search for pair
              http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510055025,00.html

              Woman killed by lightning in Uintas
              http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510047711,00.html

              4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
              http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html

              Steve

              Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
              steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
              "I used to be a Fox"
            • Bill Stewart
              Folks, Allow me to correct one link. Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
                Folks,
                Allow me to correct one link.
                Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html#aa

                73,

                Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


                Bill Stewart wrote:
                Folks,
                I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

                The age appropriate activities list is at http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
                Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm

                73,
                 Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


                Dan Fisher wrote:
                Mark,

                I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

                I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

                I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

                73,
                Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

                Mark wrote:
                Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




                Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                ScoutRadio start page:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

                SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES




                Yahoo! Groups Links



                Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                ScoutRadio start page:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

                SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





                Yahoo! Groups Links



                Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                ScoutRadio start page:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

                SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





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              • davifish@bellsouth.net
                Bill, Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
                  Bill,

                  Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up the Scoutmaster in the event of a lawsuit.

                  73,
                  Dan KG4SDJ

                  >
                  > From: Bill Stewart <w2bsa@...>
                  > Date: 2003/12/29 Mon PM 11:16:50 EST
                  > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler
                  >
                  > Folks,
                  > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                  > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                  > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
                  >
                  > The age appropriate activities list is at
                  > http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
                  > Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various
                  > camping activities including high-adventure camping:
                  > http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm
                  >
                  > 73,
                  > Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing
                  > Crew 80
                  >
                  >
                  > Dan Fisher wrote:
                  >
                  > > Mark,
                  > >
                  > > I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a
                  > > police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm
                  > > not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have
                  > > thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your
                  > > thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the
                  > > other scoutmaster.
                  > >
                  > > I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years
                  > > ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are
                  > > various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout
                  > > leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand
                  > > Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged
                  > > boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the
                  > > Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As
                  > > a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and
                  > > exhaustion. At least one boy died.
                  > >
                  > > I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of
                  > > those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my
                  > > profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It
                  > > makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old
                  > > Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my
                  > > viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a
                  > > Venturing crew.
                  > >
                  > > 73,
                  > > Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                  > > Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                  > > Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council
                  > >
                  > > Mark wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                  > >> I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                  > >> and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                  > >> to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                  > >> high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                  > >> up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                  > >> returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                  > >> (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                  > >> also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                  > >> this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                  > >> day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                  > >> would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                  > >> this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                  > >> What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                  > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                  > >>
                  > >> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                  > >> subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                  > >>
                  > >> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                  > >> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                  > >>
                  > >> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                  > >> http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                  > >>
                  > >> Visit the "Adventure Radio Society"
                  > >> http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                  > >>
                  > >> ScoutRadio start page:
                  > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                  > >> email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                  > >>
                  > >> Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                  > >> Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >> List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  > >>
                  > >> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >>
                  > >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
                  > >>
                  > >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > >> ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >> <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                  > >>
                  > >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                  > >
                  > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                  > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                  > >
                  > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                  > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                  > >
                  > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                  > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                  > >
                  > > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                  > >
                  > > ScoutRadio start page:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                  > > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                  > >
                  > > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > > <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cmdo7np/M=266841.4316200.5507732.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705066162:HM/EXP=1072841945/A=1911856/R=0/*http://www.lifescapeinc.com/picasa/landing.php?capid=222&caId=1985>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
                  > >
                  > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                  > >
                  > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >

                  73,
                  Dan KG4SDJ
                • ClayMayrose@aol.com
                  Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision. It
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
                    Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision.  It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that happen.

                    Clay WA6LBU
                    Wellston, OK

                    In a message dated 12/29/03 10:28:12 PM Central Standard Time, steve@... writes:


                    4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
                    http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html


                  • Steven C. Gallafent
                    ... answer... I ve read both of these and neither says 12-13 year old Boy Scouts should not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas. :) It s been a while since
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
                      > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                      > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                      > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

                      > Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
                      answer...

                      I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
                      not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)

                      It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
                      remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.

                      According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
                      appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
                      which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.

                      The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:

                      Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
                      designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
                      "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
                      problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
                      occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
                      aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.

                      And this:

                      All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
                      least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
                      the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
                      and safety of the youth in his or her care.

                      And this:

                      Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
                      trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
                      judgment.

                      My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
                      very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
                      with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.

                      Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
                      units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
                      units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
                      the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
                      and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
                      would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
                      trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
                      suggested.

                      With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
                      had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
                      be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
                      bad experience.

                      I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
                      original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
                      going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
                      had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
                      for their boys.

                      > Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
                      not
                      > see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
                      supervision.
                      > It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
                      > happen.

                      I used to say that very thing.

                      There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
                      couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
                      out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
                      wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.

                      She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
                      had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
                      were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
                      dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
                      leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
                      open and their legs hanging out.

                      I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.

                      Steve

                      Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                      steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                      "I used to be a Fox"
                    • Bill Stewart
                      Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason that
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 31, 2003
                        Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason
                        that Venturing is for those 14 and over. It primarily does High-Adventure, whether it's backcountry camping and hiking or assisting the Red Cross in shelter operations.
                        Look  at the age guidelines in the GSS.

                        73,

                        Bill Stewart, W2BSA

                        Steven C. Gallafent wrote:
                        I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                        Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                        folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
                            
                          
                        Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
                            
                        answer...
                        
                        I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
                        not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)
                        
                        It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
                        remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.
                        
                        According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
                        appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
                        which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.
                        
                        The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:
                        
                        Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
                        designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
                        "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
                        problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
                        occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
                        aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.
                        
                        And this:
                        
                        All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
                        least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
                        the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
                        and safety of the youth in his or her care.
                        
                        And this:
                        
                        Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
                        trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
                        judgment.
                        
                        My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
                        very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
                        with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.
                        
                        Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
                        units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
                        units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
                        the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
                        and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
                        would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
                        trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
                        suggested.
                        
                        With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
                        had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
                        be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
                        bad experience.
                        
                        I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
                        original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
                        going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
                        had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
                        for their boys.
                        
                          
                        Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
                            
                        not
                          
                        see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
                            
                        supervision.
                          
                        It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
                        happen.
                            
                        I used to say that very thing.
                        
                        There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
                        couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
                        out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
                        wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.
                        
                        She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
                        had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
                        were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
                        dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
                        leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
                        open and their legs hanging out.
                        
                        I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.
                        
                        Steve
                        
                        Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                        steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                        "I used to be a Fox"
                        
                        
                        Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                        
                        Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                        
                        Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                        http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                        
                        Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                        http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                        
                        Visit the &quot;Adventure Radio Society&quot; http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                        
                        ScoutRadio start page:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                        
                        Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com 
                        Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
                        List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com 
                        
                        SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES 
                        
                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                        
                        To visit your group on the web, go to:
                         http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
                        
                        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                         ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        
                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                         http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
                        
                        
                        
                          
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