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Re: [Scoutradio] Re: scout 50 miler

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  • ClayMayrose@aol.com
    I am one of those evil people that like to hike. (GRIN) I love to go somewhere that I have never gone just because I have never been there. My experiences
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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      I am one of those evil people that like to hike. (GRIN) I love to go somewhere that I have never gone just "because" I have never been there. 

      My experiences didn't start out so well.  I was in a new troop with inexperienced leaders that took us on a hike that would have been rated an intermediate skill level hike.  To get to our destination, we were pushed pretty hard and it was anteing but enjoyable.  As I look back, many of the boys never wanted to go on a hike again. That was 30 years ago.  My kids love to hike places that will put my APRS footprint in real unique area on the map.

      Above all, hiking must be fun or no body gets anything out of it.

      In a message dated 12/29/03 1:44:29 AM Central Standard Time, mcknightr@... writes:


      Also the distance covered, terrain difficulty, safety & medical eqpmt,
      remoteness & emergency access MUST be considered with regard to the
      youngest/weakest/slowest member of the hiking party.


    • ClayMayrose@aol.com
      In a message dated 12/29/03 1:08:58 AM Central Standard Time, steve@compguy.com writes: I didn t come up with any articles with unitas scout in the archives.
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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        In a message dated 12/29/03 1:08:58 AM Central Standard Time, steve@... writes:
        I didn't come up with any articles with unitas scout in the archives.

        Clay

      • Chris Kelly
        Howdy: I think that a 50 miler without prior experience would likely be a bad, if not dangerous, experience. I have been a backpacker since my college years
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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          Howdy:
          I think that a 50 miler without prior experience would likely
          be a bad, if not dangerous, experience.

          I have been a backpacker since my college years (1970s) and
          a scout leader for about 8 years. This summer I took a few scouts
          to Philmont, a 70 mile 10 day trek rated "strenuous". The scouts
          were all at least 14 years old, but two who were age 14 were of
          light build and could not have made it without adults to carry
          part of their share of load.

          My most important paragraph of advice:
          If you would like to have scouts take grand trips like this, in the
          coming Summer, start them conditioning NOW. Start with 1, 2, and 3 day
          backpack trips ASAP, and shake down the gear and clothing that they
          will take. Anybody who has not completed at LEAST 2 or 3 2-night
          trips should not be allowed to go.

          Most Scouts absolutely CAN manage a 50 miler, if they "are prepared".
          It will take a few trips to work out what to take and how to use it
          and what not to take on the big trek. We knew to take very little,
          and still cast away 25% of our gear before hitting the trail at Philmont.
          Unless you do the training trips, your troop will not be prepared.
          The first trip may only be 3 miles one way, but it's enough to do gear
          shakedown. They will learn about stoves and cooking with them,
          learn they don't need that "messkit" they got for Christmas just a
          large lexan mug or bowl and a lexan spoon, etc.

          By the time we completed the last (long) day, we were joking about
          carrying all the extra postage stamps we had. The adult packs were
          running 50-plus pounds, and when we carried a full load of water,
          they weighed more. This would be way too much for younger scouts.
          Their mothers will want them to take everything but the sink,
          and they know they only need 1 pair of underwear per week...natural
          tension will arise. (Drop unnecessary gear (in the cars) at the
          trailhead away from Mom's worried eyes).

          Also critical will be foot care. This is a tough call for growing boys
          because good hiking boots will be very important to completing a 50 miler
          in mountains, and it's tough to ask some parents to cough up that kind of
          money for something they will soon outgrow. One of our scouts had
          high quality but oversized boots and the last, long day he was in real
          pain coming down off the Tooth of Time ridge.

          Itinerary: Plan short stretches the first few days to allow for conditioning.
          It's surprising how soon you adapt to the pack and the trail, if
          you are already in reasonable physical shape. Still, only plan about
          5 miles or so the first couple days, especially if ascending. Descending
          is harder on the feet and knees, ascent requires lungs and muscle.

          Good luck and 73,
          Chris Kelly, K0PF
          Trustee W0BSA
        • Dave Colter
          Hi Mark, I m going to add my voice to the chorus of caution. I ve been a backpacker and winter climber for 40 years, and I ve lead dozens of tough trips for
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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            Hi Mark,
            I'm going to add my voice to the chorus of caution. I've been a backpacker
            and winter climber for 40 years, and I've lead dozens of tough trips for
            many age groups. The trip you describe is far too much for most 12-13 year
            old Scouts, unless they all have been backpacking with their families for
            many years, as my son did from age seven. If it was flatland, like Ohio or
            Oklahoma, I'd say, "go for it," but not in the mountains at any altitude.
            These kids are not likely to have either the skills or stamina. (I once made
            the mistake of taking a younger group on a moderate 4 mile in/out early
            winter trip and despite good preparation, we had a devil of a time with cold
            and immature kids - and ticked-off parents when we got home.) We've always
            limited 50-milers (and any really challenging expeditions, like winter
            climbs above treeline) to First Class Scouts 14 and older. The age
            requirement was partly for stamina and maturity, and the First Class
            requirement was to be sure they had a little experience and all the basic
            camping skills. We also did many shorter weekend trips and long days hikes
            in preparation, beginning a year earlier. They started out with day packs on
            the day trips, working up to full packs, and then adding more mileage, with
            our longest day being about 10 miles in mountains. We did a bunch of 5 mile
            in/5mile out overnights, sometimes two in one month.

            The big problem wasn't getting the Scouts in shape - although they certainly
            needed it - it was my ASMs and two dads! They really had to work hard to
            overcome soft and unused leg and back muscles - and cardio-vascular
            capacity. We also had two "reserve" dads and a mom who were available as
            last minute stand-ins just in case one of the primary adults had to bail at
            the last minute. You usually can't afford to be short an adult. The minimum
            is three, but four is much better. Helps with double-deep leadership should
            the group need to split up in an emergency. Also, consider the size of the
            group you are taking on the trail. In most designated wilderness areas, the
            USFS limits you to a maximum group size of 8-10. Even in non-regulated
            areas, it's a good idea. Most back-country camping areas aren't large enough
            to handle big groups, especially if there are other hikers using them as
            well. It is also good policy from an ecology standpoint. I have done some
            great trips with 8 older boys and 2 adults. Large groups also tend to get
            dirty looks from other hikers, and Lord knows, BSA can't withstand too many
            more dirty looks!

            On the 50-miler, I think our longest day was 11 miles. We also found a way
            to do re-supply mid-route (at a road crossing) coordinated via 2 meters.
            (Six of my Scouts and two ASMs were hams, so we had plenty of radios.) The
            mid-route resupply cut way down on the load everyone had to carry. When you
            plan the food/water/group gear load, be sure to "under-load" everyone. If
            you figure someone ought to be able to carry 8 pounds of group gear, plan
            for 5 or 6. That way, if Johnny gets the sniffles on the day before the trip
            and mommy keeps him home, you won't be overloading the rest of the group
            with gear. Actually, that is more of a problem with 11-13 year olds than
            14-17 year olds. We did have a secret weapon in the "heavy hauling"
            department for a few years. While loading up before departure one trip, we
            discovered that Tyler's patrol had bought some canned goods - about 15
            pounds of them. Tyler was a 14yo PL, and most of his guys were younger and
            smaller. I always knew Tyler was pretty rugged, but his Dad said "let's
            stick all those cans in the bottom of Tyler's pack - he'll never notice." I
            had my doubts, but we did it, and never heard a word from Tyler until we
            reached our campsite. As he pulled out the cans, he said off-handedly, "I
            thought this seemed a little heavy," and never mentioned it again. Tyler
            made Eagle a few years later and is today a graduate student in wildlife
            biology at the U of Alaska. I saw him at Thanksgiving, and he has grown into
            one impressive young man!

            But I digress. Bottom line - the trip your SM proposes is too much for those
            little guys - do something easier as a prep trip, and plan the big one for
            next year.
            73,
            Dave Colter WA1ZCN
            Griswold Scout Reservation
            Radio and Telephone Department
            (Retired Scoutmaster, Troop 71 New London, NH)
            www.geocities.com/nhscouter
            www.scouttraveler.org

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Mark [mailto:markcm37@...]
            > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 18:48
            > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler
            >
            >
            > Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
            > I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
            > and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
            > to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
            > high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
            > up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
            > returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
            > (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
            > also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
            > this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
            > day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
            > would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
            > this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
            > What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark
          • Dan Fisher
            Mark, I m also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I m 50 years old (an old guy), but I m not sure *I*
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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              Mark,

              I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

              I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

              I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

              73,
              Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
              Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
              Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

              Mark wrote:
              Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
              I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
              and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
              to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
              high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
              up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
              returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
              (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
              also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
              this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
              day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
              would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
              this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
              What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




              Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

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            • Bill Stewart
              Folks, I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don t just guess
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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                Folks,
                I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

                The age appropriate activities list is at http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
                Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm

                73,
                 Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


                Dan Fisher wrote:
                Mark,

                I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

                I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

                I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

                73,
                Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

                Mark wrote:
                Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




                Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                ScoutRadio start page:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES




                Yahoo! Groups Links



                Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                ScoutRadio start page:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
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              • Steven C. Gallafent
                ... I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion: Bad weather hinders search for pair
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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                  > I didn't come up with any articles with unitas scout in the archives.

                  I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion:

                  Bad weather hinders search for pair
                  http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510055025,00.html

                  Woman killed by lightning in Uintas
                  http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510047711,00.html

                  4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
                  http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html

                  Steve

                  Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                  steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                  "I used to be a Fox"
                • Bill Stewart
                  Folks, Allow me to correct one link. Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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                    Folks,
                    Allow me to correct one link.
                    Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html#aa

                    73,

                    Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


                    Bill Stewart wrote:
                    Folks,
                    I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

                    The age appropriate activities list is at http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
                    Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm

                    73,
                     Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


                    Dan Fisher wrote:
                    Mark,

                    I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

                    I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

                    I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

                    73,
                    Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                    Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                    Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

                    Mark wrote:
                    Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                    I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                    and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                    to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                    high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                    up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                    returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                    (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                    also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                    this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                    day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                    would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                    this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                    What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




                    Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                    Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                    Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                    http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                    Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                    http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                    Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                    ScoutRadio start page:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                    Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                    Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

                    SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES




                    Yahoo! Groups Links



                    Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                    Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                    Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                    http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                    Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                    http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                    Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                    ScoutRadio start page:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                    Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                    Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

                    SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





                    Yahoo! Groups Links



                    Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                    Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                    Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                    http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                    Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                    http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                    Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                    ScoutRadio start page:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                    Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                    Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                    SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





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                  • davifish@bellsouth.net
                    Bill, Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
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                      Bill,

                      Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up the Scoutmaster in the event of a lawsuit.

                      73,
                      Dan KG4SDJ

                      >
                      > From: Bill Stewart <w2bsa@...>
                      > Date: 2003/12/29 Mon PM 11:16:50 EST
                      > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler
                      >
                      > Folks,
                      > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                      > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                      > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
                      >
                      > The age appropriate activities list is at
                      > http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
                      > Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various
                      > camping activities including high-adventure camping:
                      > http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm
                      >
                      > 73,
                      > Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing
                      > Crew 80
                      >
                      >
                      > Dan Fisher wrote:
                      >
                      > > Mark,
                      > >
                      > > I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a
                      > > police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm
                      > > not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have
                      > > thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your
                      > > thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the
                      > > other scoutmaster.
                      > >
                      > > I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years
                      > > ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are
                      > > various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout
                      > > leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand
                      > > Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged
                      > > boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the
                      > > Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As
                      > > a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and
                      > > exhaustion. At least one boy died.
                      > >
                      > > I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of
                      > > those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my
                      > > profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It
                      > > makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old
                      > > Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my
                      > > viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a
                      > > Venturing crew.
                      > >
                      > > 73,
                      > > Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                      > > Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                      > > Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council
                      > >
                      > > Mark wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                      > >> I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                      > >> and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                      > >> to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                      > >> high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                      > >> up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                      > >> returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                      > >> (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                      > >> also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                      > >> this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                      > >> day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                      > >> would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                      > >> this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                      > >> What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                      > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                      > >>
                      > >> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                      > >> subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                      > >>
                      > >> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                      > >> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                      > >>
                      > >> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                      > >> http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                      > >>
                      > >> Visit the "Adventure Radio Society"
                      > >> http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                      > >>
                      > >> ScoutRadio start page:
                      > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                      > >> email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                      > >>
                      > >> Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                      > >> Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >> List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      > >>
                      > >> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >>
                      > >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
                      > >>
                      > >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > >> ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >> <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                      > >>
                      > >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                      > >
                      > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                      > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                      > >
                      > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                      > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                      > >
                      > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                      > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                      > >
                      > > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                      > >
                      > > ScoutRadio start page:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                      > > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                      > >
                      > > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > > ADVERTISEMENT
                      > > <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cmdo7np/M=266841.4316200.5507732.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705066162:HM/EXP=1072841945/A=1911856/R=0/*http://www.lifescapeinc.com/picasa/landing.php?capid=222&caId=1985>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
                      > >
                      > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                      > >
                      > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >

                      73,
                      Dan KG4SDJ
                    • ClayMayrose@aol.com
                      Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision. It
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision.  It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that happen.

                        Clay WA6LBU
                        Wellston, OK

                        In a message dated 12/29/03 10:28:12 PM Central Standard Time, steve@... writes:


                        4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
                        http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html


                      • Steven C. Gallafent
                        ... answer... I ve read both of these and neither says 12-13 year old Boy Scouts should not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas. :) It s been a while since
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                          > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                          > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

                          > Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
                          answer...

                          I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
                          not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)

                          It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
                          remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.

                          According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
                          appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
                          which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.

                          The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:

                          Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
                          designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
                          "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
                          problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
                          occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
                          aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.

                          And this:

                          All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
                          least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
                          the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
                          and safety of the youth in his or her care.

                          And this:

                          Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
                          trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
                          judgment.

                          My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
                          very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
                          with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.

                          Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
                          units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
                          units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
                          the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
                          and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
                          would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
                          trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
                          suggested.

                          With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
                          had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
                          be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
                          bad experience.

                          I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
                          original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
                          going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
                          had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
                          for their boys.

                          > Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
                          not
                          > see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
                          supervision.
                          > It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
                          > happen.

                          I used to say that very thing.

                          There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
                          couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
                          out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
                          wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.

                          She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
                          had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
                          were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
                          dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
                          leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
                          open and their legs hanging out.

                          I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.

                          Steve

                          Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                          steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                          "I used to be a Fox"
                        • Bill Stewart
                          Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason that
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 31, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason
                            that Venturing is for those 14 and over. It primarily does High-Adventure, whether it's backcountry camping and hiking or assisting the Red Cross in shelter operations.
                            Look  at the age guidelines in the GSS.

                            73,

                            Bill Stewart, W2BSA

                            Steven C. Gallafent wrote:
                            I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                            Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                            folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
                                
                              
                            Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
                                
                            answer...
                            
                            I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
                            not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)
                            
                            It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
                            remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.
                            
                            According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
                            appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
                            which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.
                            
                            The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:
                            
                            Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
                            designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
                            "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
                            problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
                            occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
                            aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.
                            
                            And this:
                            
                            All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
                            least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
                            the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
                            and safety of the youth in his or her care.
                            
                            And this:
                            
                            Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
                            trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
                            judgment.
                            
                            My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
                            very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
                            with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.
                            
                            Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
                            units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
                            units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
                            the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
                            and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
                            would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
                            trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
                            suggested.
                            
                            With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
                            had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
                            be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
                            bad experience.
                            
                            I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
                            original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
                            going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
                            had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
                            for their boys.
                            
                              
                            Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
                                
                            not
                              
                            see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
                                
                            supervision.
                              
                            It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
                            happen.
                                
                            I used to say that very thing.
                            
                            There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
                            couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
                            out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
                            wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.
                            
                            She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
                            had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
                            were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
                            dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
                            leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
                            open and their legs hanging out.
                            
                            I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.
                            
                            Steve
                            
                            Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                            steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                            "I used to be a Fox"
                            
                            
                            Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                            
                            Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                            
                            Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                            http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                            
                            Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                            http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                            
                            Visit the &quot;Adventure Radio Society&quot; http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                            
                            ScoutRadio start page:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                            
                            Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com 
                            Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
                            List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com 
                            
                            SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES 
                            
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                            To visit your group on the web, go to:
                             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
                            
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