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Re: scout 50 miler

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  • Steven C. Gallafent
    ... What Neil said. In addition, here s something to consider: With a trip like this, you re going to be pushing some of the boys to the limits of their
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 28, 2003
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      > day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
      > would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
      > this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
      > What do you all think? I appreciate all responses.

      What Neil said. In addition, here's something to consider:

      With a trip like this, you're going to be pushing some of the boys to the
      limits of their abilities. The Uintas can be a rough place and fairly
      unforgiving if something goes wrong and you're pushing your limits. The fact
      that you're asking the question means you're probably already concerned
      about their abilities.

      If it were my boys, I would shorten the trip and give them more time to
      relax, explore, and play.

      My suggestion:

      Go to deseretnews.com, scroll to the bottom of the page, and look for the
      search box. Click on the link to search the permanent archives. Search for
      "uintas scout" (without the quotes).

      Read through the articles and then take a look at your boys. If you think
      they're up to it, go for it. If not, modify the plan to something they're
      ready for.

      Your first responsibility is to bring them all home. I'm not saying that
      something is going to happen, but I've heard of too many instances where
      boys have gotten separated from the group and spent a night or two alone.

      Sorry for the sobering reply, but I've seen what happens when you push a
      group beyond the limits of its abilities and someone doesn't come home. You
      don't want to go there.

      Steve

      Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
      steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
      "I used to be a Fox"
    • Robert McKnight
      Hi All, I hope you don t mind, but a comment from Australia regarding the proposed hike.... I was a Cub & a Scout (many years ago!) & am now a Cub Scout Leader
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 28, 2003
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        Hi All,
        I hope you don't mind, but a comment from Australia regarding the proposed
        hike....

        I was a Cub & a Scout (many years ago!) & am now a Cub Scout Leader who
        regularly partakes in our Group's Scout outings, hikes & camps & I also have
        three boys (two in the age group mentioned), so I speak with a degree of
        experience.

        Reading Neil's description regarding the hike, I, like Steve would have some
        strong reservations about a hike of that distance, with what sounds like
        some quite challenging terrain, all this while each Scout has to carry
        EVERYTHING.

        This particular age group mentioned contains kids of quite different size,
        strength & maturity.

        Also the distance covered, terrain difficulty, safety & medical eqpmt,
        remoteness & emergency access MUST be considered with regard to the
        youngest/weakest/slowest member of the hiking party.

        With most of the Scouts apparently having little or no experience with a
        hike of this nature, it would seem far safer to do an overnighter first,
        before something of this scale.

        Our "Duty of Care" to the young people we have responsibility over, must
        always be paramount despite our grandiose ideas....

        Kind regards,
        Rob McKnight - VK2MT
        CSL - Balgownie (Wollongong, NSW)


        > day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
        > would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
        > this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
        > What do you all think? I appreciate all responses.

        What Neil said. In addition, here's something to consider:

        With a trip like this, you're going to be pushing some of the boys to the
        limits of their abilities. The Uintas can be a rough place and fairly
        unforgiving if something goes wrong and you're pushing your limits. The fact
        that you're asking the question means you're probably already concerned
        about their abilities.

        If it were my boys, I would shorten the trip and give them more time to
        relax, explore, and play.

        My suggestion:

        Go to deseretnews.com, scroll to the bottom of the page, and look for the
        search box. Click on the link to search the permanent archives. Search for
        "uintas scout" (without the quotes).

        Read through the articles and then take a look at your boys. If you think
        they're up to it, go for it. If not, modify the plan to something they're
        ready for.

        Your first responsibility is to bring them all home. I'm not saying that
        something is going to happen, but I've heard of too many instances where
        boys have gotten separated from the group and spent a night or two alone.

        Sorry for the sobering reply, but I've seen what happens when you push a
        group beyond the limits of its abilities and someone doesn't come home. You
        don't want to go there.

        Steve

        Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
        steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
        "I used to be a Fox"


        Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

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        to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

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        http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

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      • Wootton William F III CNIN
        Mark, Let me weight in on this one. From twenty years as a Scoutmaster and numerous backpacking trips (Philmont, Bridger Mountains, Appalachian Trail), from
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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          Mark,

          Let me weight in on this one.

          From twenty years as a Scoutmaster and numerous backpacking trips (Philmont, Bridger Mountains, Appalachian Trail), from the brief description of your troops plan, I think someone needs to sober-up.

          Questions I would pose - what conditioning hikes (number, length terrain, etc.,) are you planning to get these scouts ready??

          What emergency plans do you have for getting medical attention, if needed?

          How about re-supply for food and water (are there natural springs or creeks or other sources of water). Are the boys trained in proper water purification techniques and do (will) you have the necessary equipment and supplies? I have had ceramic filters plug-up after only two days of a seven-day
          trip, so extras are essential.

          Also, I question the 3000 foot elevation gain in one day (with full packs)??? Boys Scouts is NOT THE US INFANTRY. NOR IS IT RANGE OR SPECIAL FORCES TRAINING. If you want to ruin a scouts fun in scouting this will do it. Starting and finishing with 13 miles is just plan nuts.

          Cordially yours in Scouting,
          Bill Wootton, Scoutmaster Troop 170, KC9ACL


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Mark [mailto:markcm37@...]
          Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 18:48
          To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler


          Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
          I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
          and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
          to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
          high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
          up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
          returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
          (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
          also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
          this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
          day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
          would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
          this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
          What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark



          Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

          Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

          Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
          http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

          Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
          http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

          Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

          ScoutRadio start page:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

          Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
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        • ClayMayrose@aol.com
          I am one of those evil people that like to hike. (GRIN) I love to go somewhere that I have never gone just because I have never been there. My experiences
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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            I am one of those evil people that like to hike. (GRIN) I love to go somewhere that I have never gone just "because" I have never been there. 

            My experiences didn't start out so well.  I was in a new troop with inexperienced leaders that took us on a hike that would have been rated an intermediate skill level hike.  To get to our destination, we were pushed pretty hard and it was anteing but enjoyable.  As I look back, many of the boys never wanted to go on a hike again. That was 30 years ago.  My kids love to hike places that will put my APRS footprint in real unique area on the map.

            Above all, hiking must be fun or no body gets anything out of it.

            In a message dated 12/29/03 1:44:29 AM Central Standard Time, mcknightr@... writes:


            Also the distance covered, terrain difficulty, safety & medical eqpmt,
            remoteness & emergency access MUST be considered with regard to the
            youngest/weakest/slowest member of the hiking party.


          • ClayMayrose@aol.com
            In a message dated 12/29/03 1:08:58 AM Central Standard Time, steve@compguy.com writes: I didn t come up with any articles with unitas scout in the archives.
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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              In a message dated 12/29/03 1:08:58 AM Central Standard Time, steve@... writes:
              I didn't come up with any articles with unitas scout in the archives.

              Clay

            • Chris Kelly
              Howdy: I think that a 50 miler without prior experience would likely be a bad, if not dangerous, experience. I have been a backpacker since my college years
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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                Howdy:
                I think that a 50 miler without prior experience would likely
                be a bad, if not dangerous, experience.

                I have been a backpacker since my college years (1970s) and
                a scout leader for about 8 years. This summer I took a few scouts
                to Philmont, a 70 mile 10 day trek rated "strenuous". The scouts
                were all at least 14 years old, but two who were age 14 were of
                light build and could not have made it without adults to carry
                part of their share of load.

                My most important paragraph of advice:
                If you would like to have scouts take grand trips like this, in the
                coming Summer, start them conditioning NOW. Start with 1, 2, and 3 day
                backpack trips ASAP, and shake down the gear and clothing that they
                will take. Anybody who has not completed at LEAST 2 or 3 2-night
                trips should not be allowed to go.

                Most Scouts absolutely CAN manage a 50 miler, if they "are prepared".
                It will take a few trips to work out what to take and how to use it
                and what not to take on the big trek. We knew to take very little,
                and still cast away 25% of our gear before hitting the trail at Philmont.
                Unless you do the training trips, your troop will not be prepared.
                The first trip may only be 3 miles one way, but it's enough to do gear
                shakedown. They will learn about stoves and cooking with them,
                learn they don't need that "messkit" they got for Christmas just a
                large lexan mug or bowl and a lexan spoon, etc.

                By the time we completed the last (long) day, we were joking about
                carrying all the extra postage stamps we had. The adult packs were
                running 50-plus pounds, and when we carried a full load of water,
                they weighed more. This would be way too much for younger scouts.
                Their mothers will want them to take everything but the sink,
                and they know they only need 1 pair of underwear per week...natural
                tension will arise. (Drop unnecessary gear (in the cars) at the
                trailhead away from Mom's worried eyes).

                Also critical will be foot care. This is a tough call for growing boys
                because good hiking boots will be very important to completing a 50 miler
                in mountains, and it's tough to ask some parents to cough up that kind of
                money for something they will soon outgrow. One of our scouts had
                high quality but oversized boots and the last, long day he was in real
                pain coming down off the Tooth of Time ridge.

                Itinerary: Plan short stretches the first few days to allow for conditioning.
                It's surprising how soon you adapt to the pack and the trail, if
                you are already in reasonable physical shape. Still, only plan about
                5 miles or so the first couple days, especially if ascending. Descending
                is harder on the feet and knees, ascent requires lungs and muscle.

                Good luck and 73,
                Chris Kelly, K0PF
                Trustee W0BSA
              • Dave Colter
                Hi Mark, I m going to add my voice to the chorus of caution. I ve been a backpacker and winter climber for 40 years, and I ve lead dozens of tough trips for
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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                  Hi Mark,
                  I'm going to add my voice to the chorus of caution. I've been a backpacker
                  and winter climber for 40 years, and I've lead dozens of tough trips for
                  many age groups. The trip you describe is far too much for most 12-13 year
                  old Scouts, unless they all have been backpacking with their families for
                  many years, as my son did from age seven. If it was flatland, like Ohio or
                  Oklahoma, I'd say, "go for it," but not in the mountains at any altitude.
                  These kids are not likely to have either the skills or stamina. (I once made
                  the mistake of taking a younger group on a moderate 4 mile in/out early
                  winter trip and despite good preparation, we had a devil of a time with cold
                  and immature kids - and ticked-off parents when we got home.) We've always
                  limited 50-milers (and any really challenging expeditions, like winter
                  climbs above treeline) to First Class Scouts 14 and older. The age
                  requirement was partly for stamina and maturity, and the First Class
                  requirement was to be sure they had a little experience and all the basic
                  camping skills. We also did many shorter weekend trips and long days hikes
                  in preparation, beginning a year earlier. They started out with day packs on
                  the day trips, working up to full packs, and then adding more mileage, with
                  our longest day being about 10 miles in mountains. We did a bunch of 5 mile
                  in/5mile out overnights, sometimes two in one month.

                  The big problem wasn't getting the Scouts in shape - although they certainly
                  needed it - it was my ASMs and two dads! They really had to work hard to
                  overcome soft and unused leg and back muscles - and cardio-vascular
                  capacity. We also had two "reserve" dads and a mom who were available as
                  last minute stand-ins just in case one of the primary adults had to bail at
                  the last minute. You usually can't afford to be short an adult. The minimum
                  is three, but four is much better. Helps with double-deep leadership should
                  the group need to split up in an emergency. Also, consider the size of the
                  group you are taking on the trail. In most designated wilderness areas, the
                  USFS limits you to a maximum group size of 8-10. Even in non-regulated
                  areas, it's a good idea. Most back-country camping areas aren't large enough
                  to handle big groups, especially if there are other hikers using them as
                  well. It is also good policy from an ecology standpoint. I have done some
                  great trips with 8 older boys and 2 adults. Large groups also tend to get
                  dirty looks from other hikers, and Lord knows, BSA can't withstand too many
                  more dirty looks!

                  On the 50-miler, I think our longest day was 11 miles. We also found a way
                  to do re-supply mid-route (at a road crossing) coordinated via 2 meters.
                  (Six of my Scouts and two ASMs were hams, so we had plenty of radios.) The
                  mid-route resupply cut way down on the load everyone had to carry. When you
                  plan the food/water/group gear load, be sure to "under-load" everyone. If
                  you figure someone ought to be able to carry 8 pounds of group gear, plan
                  for 5 or 6. That way, if Johnny gets the sniffles on the day before the trip
                  and mommy keeps him home, you won't be overloading the rest of the group
                  with gear. Actually, that is more of a problem with 11-13 year olds than
                  14-17 year olds. We did have a secret weapon in the "heavy hauling"
                  department for a few years. While loading up before departure one trip, we
                  discovered that Tyler's patrol had bought some canned goods - about 15
                  pounds of them. Tyler was a 14yo PL, and most of his guys were younger and
                  smaller. I always knew Tyler was pretty rugged, but his Dad said "let's
                  stick all those cans in the bottom of Tyler's pack - he'll never notice." I
                  had my doubts, but we did it, and never heard a word from Tyler until we
                  reached our campsite. As he pulled out the cans, he said off-handedly, "I
                  thought this seemed a little heavy," and never mentioned it again. Tyler
                  made Eagle a few years later and is today a graduate student in wildlife
                  biology at the U of Alaska. I saw him at Thanksgiving, and he has grown into
                  one impressive young man!

                  But I digress. Bottom line - the trip your SM proposes is too much for those
                  little guys - do something easier as a prep trip, and plan the big one for
                  next year.
                  73,
                  Dave Colter WA1ZCN
                  Griswold Scout Reservation
                  Radio and Telephone Department
                  (Retired Scoutmaster, Troop 71 New London, NH)
                  www.geocities.com/nhscouter
                  www.scouttraveler.org

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Mark [mailto:markcm37@...]
                  > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 18:48
                  > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                  > I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                  > and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                  > to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                  > high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                  > up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                  > returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                  > (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                  > also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                  > this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                  > day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                  > would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                  > this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                  > What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark
                • Dan Fisher
                  Mark, I m also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I m 50 years old (an old guy), but I m not sure *I*
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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                    Mark,

                    I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

                    I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

                    I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

                    73,
                    Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                    Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                    Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

                    Mark wrote:
                    Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                    I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                    and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                    to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                    high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                    up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                    returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                    (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                    also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                    this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                    day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                    would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                    this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                    What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




                    Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

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                    Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

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                  • Bill Stewart
                    Folks, I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don t just guess
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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                      Folks,
                      I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

                      The age appropriate activities list is at http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
                      Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm

                      73,
                       Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


                      Dan Fisher wrote:
                      Mark,

                      I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

                      I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

                      I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

                      73,
                      Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                      Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                      Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

                      Mark wrote:
                      Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                      I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                      and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                      to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                      high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                      up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                      returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                      (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                      also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                      this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                      day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                      would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                      this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                      What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




                      Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                      Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                      Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                      http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                      Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                      http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                      Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                      ScoutRadio start page:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                      Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                      Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                      SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES




                      Yahoo! Groups Links



                      Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                      Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                      Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                      http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                      Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                      http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                      Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                      ScoutRadio start page:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                      Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                      Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                    • Steven C. Gallafent
                      ... I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion: Bad weather hinders search for pair
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > I didn't come up with any articles with unitas scout in the archives.

                        I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion:

                        Bad weather hinders search for pair
                        http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510055025,00.html

                        Woman killed by lightning in Uintas
                        http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510047711,00.html

                        4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
                        http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html

                        Steve

                        Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                        steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                        "I used to be a Fox"
                      • Bill Stewart
                        Folks, Allow me to correct one link. Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Folks,
                          Allow me to correct one link.
                          Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html#aa

                          73,

                          Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


                          Bill Stewart wrote:
                          Folks,
                          I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

                          The age appropriate activities list is at http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
                          Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm

                          73,
                           Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


                          Dan Fisher wrote:
                          Mark,

                          I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

                          I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

                          I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

                          73,
                          Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                          Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                          Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

                          Mark wrote:
                          Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                          I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                          and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                          to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                          high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                          up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                          returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                          (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                          also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                          this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                          day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                          would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                          this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                          What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




                          Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                          Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                          Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                          http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                          Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                          http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                          Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                          ScoutRadio start page:
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                          Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
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                          SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES




                          Yahoo! Groups Links



                          Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                          Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                          Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                          http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                          Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                          http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                          Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                          ScoutRadio start page:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                          Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                          Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                          SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





                          Yahoo! Groups Links



                          Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                          Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                          Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                          http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                          Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                          http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                          Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                          ScoutRadio start page:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                          Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                          Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                          SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                        • davifish@bellsouth.net
                          Bill, Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Bill,

                            Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up the Scoutmaster in the event of a lawsuit.

                            73,
                            Dan KG4SDJ

                            >
                            > From: Bill Stewart <w2bsa@...>
                            > Date: 2003/12/29 Mon PM 11:16:50 EST
                            > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler
                            >
                            > Folks,
                            > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                            > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                            > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
                            >
                            > The age appropriate activities list is at
                            > http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
                            > Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various
                            > camping activities including high-adventure camping:
                            > http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm
                            >
                            > 73,
                            > Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing
                            > Crew 80
                            >
                            >
                            > Dan Fisher wrote:
                            >
                            > > Mark,
                            > >
                            > > I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a
                            > > police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm
                            > > not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have
                            > > thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your
                            > > thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the
                            > > other scoutmaster.
                            > >
                            > > I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years
                            > > ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are
                            > > various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout
                            > > leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand
                            > > Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged
                            > > boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the
                            > > Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As
                            > > a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and
                            > > exhaustion. At least one boy died.
                            > >
                            > > I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of
                            > > those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my
                            > > profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It
                            > > makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old
                            > > Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my
                            > > viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a
                            > > Venturing crew.
                            > >
                            > > 73,
                            > > Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                            > > Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                            > > Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council
                            > >
                            > > Mark wrote:
                            > >
                            > >> Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                            > >> I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                            > >> and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                            > >> to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                            > >> high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                            > >> up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                            > >> returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                            > >> (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                            > >> also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                            > >> this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                            > >> day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                            > >> would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                            > >> this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                            > >> What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                            > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                            > >>
                            > >> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                            > >> subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                            > >>
                            > >> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                            > >> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                            > >>
                            > >> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                            > >> http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                            > >>
                            > >> Visit the "Adventure Radio Society"
                            > >> http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                            > >>
                            > >> ScoutRadio start page:
                            > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                            > >> email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                            > >>
                            > >> Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                            > >> Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > >> List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            > >>
                            > >> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >>
                            > >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
                            > >>
                            > >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > >> ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > >> <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                            > >>
                            > >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            > >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                            > >
                            > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                            > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                            > >
                            > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                            > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                            > >
                            > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                            > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                            > >
                            > > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                            > >
                            > > ScoutRadio start page:
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                            > > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                            > >
                            > > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            > >
                            > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > > ADVERTISEMENT
                            > > <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cmdo7np/M=266841.4316200.5507732.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705066162:HM/EXP=1072841945/A=1911856/R=0/*http://www.lifescapeinc.com/picasa/landing.php?capid=222&caId=1985>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
                            > >
                            > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                            > >
                            > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >

                            73,
                            Dan KG4SDJ
                          • ClayMayrose@aol.com
                            Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision. It
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision.  It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that happen.

                              Clay WA6LBU
                              Wellston, OK

                              In a message dated 12/29/03 10:28:12 PM Central Standard Time, steve@... writes:


                              4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
                              http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html


                            • Steven C. Gallafent
                              ... answer... I ve read both of these and neither says 12-13 year old Boy Scouts should not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas. :) It s been a while since
                              Message 14 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                                > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                                > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

                                > Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
                                answer...

                                I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
                                not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)

                                It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
                                remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.

                                According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
                                appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
                                which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.

                                The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:

                                Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
                                designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
                                "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
                                problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
                                occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
                                aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.

                                And this:

                                All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
                                least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
                                the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
                                and safety of the youth in his or her care.

                                And this:

                                Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
                                trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
                                judgment.

                                My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
                                very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
                                with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.

                                Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
                                units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
                                units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
                                the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
                                and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
                                would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
                                trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
                                suggested.

                                With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
                                had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
                                be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
                                bad experience.

                                I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
                                original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
                                going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
                                had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
                                for their boys.

                                > Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
                                not
                                > see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
                                supervision.
                                > It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
                                > happen.

                                I used to say that very thing.

                                There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
                                couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
                                out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
                                wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.

                                She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
                                had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
                                were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
                                dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
                                leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
                                open and their legs hanging out.

                                I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.

                                Steve

                                Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                                steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                                "I used to be a Fox"
                              • Bill Stewart
                                Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason that
                                Message 15 of 17 , Dec 31, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason
                                  that Venturing is for those 14 and over. It primarily does High-Adventure, whether it's backcountry camping and hiking or assisting the Red Cross in shelter operations.
                                  Look  at the age guidelines in the GSS.

                                  73,

                                  Bill Stewart, W2BSA

                                  Steven C. Gallafent wrote:
                                  I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                                  Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                                  folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
                                      
                                    
                                  Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
                                      
                                  answer...
                                  
                                  I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
                                  not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)
                                  
                                  It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
                                  remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.
                                  
                                  According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
                                  appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
                                  which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.
                                  
                                  The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:
                                  
                                  Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
                                  designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
                                  "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
                                  problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
                                  occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
                                  aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.
                                  
                                  And this:
                                  
                                  All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
                                  least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
                                  the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
                                  and safety of the youth in his or her care.
                                  
                                  And this:
                                  
                                  Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
                                  trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
                                  judgment.
                                  
                                  My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
                                  very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
                                  with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.
                                  
                                  Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
                                  units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
                                  units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
                                  the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
                                  and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
                                  would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
                                  trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
                                  suggested.
                                  
                                  With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
                                  had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
                                  be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
                                  bad experience.
                                  
                                  I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
                                  original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
                                  going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
                                  had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
                                  for their boys.
                                  
                                    
                                  Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
                                      
                                  not
                                    
                                  see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
                                      
                                  supervision.
                                    
                                  It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
                                  happen.
                                      
                                  I used to say that very thing.
                                  
                                  There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
                                  couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
                                  out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
                                  wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.
                                  
                                  She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
                                  had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
                                  were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
                                  dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
                                  leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
                                  open and their legs hanging out.
                                  
                                  I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.
                                  
                                  Steve
                                  
                                  Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                                  steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                                  "I used to be a Fox"
                                  
                                  
                                  Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                                  
                                  Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                                  
                                  Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                  http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                                  
                                  Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                  http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                                  
                                  Visit the &quot;Adventure Radio Society&quot; http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                                  
                                  ScoutRadio start page:
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                                  SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES 
                                  
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