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scout 50 miler

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  • Mark
    Hi everyone. I m new here but have been in scouting most of my life. I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses and opinions from all
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 27, 2003
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      Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
      I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
      and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
      to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
      high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
      up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
      returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
      (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
      also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
      this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
      day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
      would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
      this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
      What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark
    • Neil Lauritsen
      Mark, I have been on a 90 mile trek while at the Philmont Scout Ranch. We had 12 Days to complete the trek while stopping at designated points of interest
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 28, 2003
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        Mark,
        I have been on a 90 mile trek while at
        the Philmont Scout Ranch. We had 12 Days to complete the trek while stopping
        at designated points of interest
        including food re-supply stops every 3 -4 days (weight being a problem on
        trying to carry the bare necessities.) My point being that while I am
        certain the scouts can do the 50 mile trek in the 5 -6 days It will not be
        FUN. That pace will require
        constant hiking with no time for enjoying the view or other fun activities.

        YIS,
        Neil Lauritsen
        Permanent Patrol Leader
        Woodbadge - Free Roam'n
        Buffalo Patrol "When the Chips are down, We will back you up!"

        > Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
        > I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
        > and opinions from all you scouters.
      • Steven C. Gallafent
        ... What Neil said. In addition, here s something to consider: With a trip like this, you re going to be pushing some of the boys to the limits of their
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 28, 2003
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          > day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
          > would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
          > this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
          > What do you all think? I appreciate all responses.

          What Neil said. In addition, here's something to consider:

          With a trip like this, you're going to be pushing some of the boys to the
          limits of their abilities. The Uintas can be a rough place and fairly
          unforgiving if something goes wrong and you're pushing your limits. The fact
          that you're asking the question means you're probably already concerned
          about their abilities.

          If it were my boys, I would shorten the trip and give them more time to
          relax, explore, and play.

          My suggestion:

          Go to deseretnews.com, scroll to the bottom of the page, and look for the
          search box. Click on the link to search the permanent archives. Search for
          "uintas scout" (without the quotes).

          Read through the articles and then take a look at your boys. If you think
          they're up to it, go for it. If not, modify the plan to something they're
          ready for.

          Your first responsibility is to bring them all home. I'm not saying that
          something is going to happen, but I've heard of too many instances where
          boys have gotten separated from the group and spent a night or two alone.

          Sorry for the sobering reply, but I've seen what happens when you push a
          group beyond the limits of its abilities and someone doesn't come home. You
          don't want to go there.

          Steve

          Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
          steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
          "I used to be a Fox"
        • Robert McKnight
          Hi All, I hope you don t mind, but a comment from Australia regarding the proposed hike.... I was a Cub & a Scout (many years ago!) & am now a Cub Scout Leader
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 28, 2003
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            Hi All,
            I hope you don't mind, but a comment from Australia regarding the proposed
            hike....

            I was a Cub & a Scout (many years ago!) & am now a Cub Scout Leader who
            regularly partakes in our Group's Scout outings, hikes & camps & I also have
            three boys (two in the age group mentioned), so I speak with a degree of
            experience.

            Reading Neil's description regarding the hike, I, like Steve would have some
            strong reservations about a hike of that distance, with what sounds like
            some quite challenging terrain, all this while each Scout has to carry
            EVERYTHING.

            This particular age group mentioned contains kids of quite different size,
            strength & maturity.

            Also the distance covered, terrain difficulty, safety & medical eqpmt,
            remoteness & emergency access MUST be considered with regard to the
            youngest/weakest/slowest member of the hiking party.

            With most of the Scouts apparently having little or no experience with a
            hike of this nature, it would seem far safer to do an overnighter first,
            before something of this scale.

            Our "Duty of Care" to the young people we have responsibility over, must
            always be paramount despite our grandiose ideas....

            Kind regards,
            Rob McKnight - VK2MT
            CSL - Balgownie (Wollongong, NSW)


            > day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
            > would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
            > this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
            > What do you all think? I appreciate all responses.

            What Neil said. In addition, here's something to consider:

            With a trip like this, you're going to be pushing some of the boys to the
            limits of their abilities. The Uintas can be a rough place and fairly
            unforgiving if something goes wrong and you're pushing your limits. The fact
            that you're asking the question means you're probably already concerned
            about their abilities.

            If it were my boys, I would shorten the trip and give them more time to
            relax, explore, and play.

            My suggestion:

            Go to deseretnews.com, scroll to the bottom of the page, and look for the
            search box. Click on the link to search the permanent archives. Search for
            "uintas scout" (without the quotes).

            Read through the articles and then take a look at your boys. If you think
            they're up to it, go for it. If not, modify the plan to something they're
            ready for.

            Your first responsibility is to bring them all home. I'm not saying that
            something is going to happen, but I've heard of too many instances where
            boys have gotten separated from the group and spent a night or two alone.

            Sorry for the sobering reply, but I've seen what happens when you push a
            group beyond the limits of its abilities and someone doesn't come home. You
            don't want to go there.

            Steve

            Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
            steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
            "I used to be a Fox"


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          • Wootton William F III CNIN
            Mark, Let me weight in on this one. From twenty years as a Scoutmaster and numerous backpacking trips (Philmont, Bridger Mountains, Appalachian Trail), from
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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              Mark,

              Let me weight in on this one.

              From twenty years as a Scoutmaster and numerous backpacking trips (Philmont, Bridger Mountains, Appalachian Trail), from the brief description of your troops plan, I think someone needs to sober-up.

              Questions I would pose - what conditioning hikes (number, length terrain, etc.,) are you planning to get these scouts ready??

              What emergency plans do you have for getting medical attention, if needed?

              How about re-supply for food and water (are there natural springs or creeks or other sources of water). Are the boys trained in proper water purification techniques and do (will) you have the necessary equipment and supplies? I have had ceramic filters plug-up after only two days of a seven-day
              trip, so extras are essential.

              Also, I question the 3000 foot elevation gain in one day (with full packs)??? Boys Scouts is NOT THE US INFANTRY. NOR IS IT RANGE OR SPECIAL FORCES TRAINING. If you want to ruin a scouts fun in scouting this will do it. Starting and finishing with 13 miles is just plan nuts.

              Cordially yours in Scouting,
              Bill Wootton, Scoutmaster Troop 170, KC9ACL


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mark [mailto:markcm37@...]
              Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 18:48
              To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler


              Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
              I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
              and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
              to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
              high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
              up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
              returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
              (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
              also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
              this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
              day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
              would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
              this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
              What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark



              Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

              Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

              Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
              http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

              Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
              http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

              Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

              ScoutRadio start page:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

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            • ClayMayrose@aol.com
              I am one of those evil people that like to hike. (GRIN) I love to go somewhere that I have never gone just because I have never been there. My experiences
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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                I am one of those evil people that like to hike. (GRIN) I love to go somewhere that I have never gone just "because" I have never been there. 

                My experiences didn't start out so well.  I was in a new troop with inexperienced leaders that took us on a hike that would have been rated an intermediate skill level hike.  To get to our destination, we were pushed pretty hard and it was anteing but enjoyable.  As I look back, many of the boys never wanted to go on a hike again. That was 30 years ago.  My kids love to hike places that will put my APRS footprint in real unique area on the map.

                Above all, hiking must be fun or no body gets anything out of it.

                In a message dated 12/29/03 1:44:29 AM Central Standard Time, mcknightr@... writes:


                Also the distance covered, terrain difficulty, safety & medical eqpmt,
                remoteness & emergency access MUST be considered with regard to the
                youngest/weakest/slowest member of the hiking party.


              • ClayMayrose@aol.com
                In a message dated 12/29/03 1:08:58 AM Central Standard Time, steve@compguy.com writes: I didn t come up with any articles with unitas scout in the archives.
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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                  In a message dated 12/29/03 1:08:58 AM Central Standard Time, steve@... writes:
                  I didn't come up with any articles with unitas scout in the archives.

                  Clay

                • Chris Kelly
                  Howdy: I think that a 50 miler without prior experience would likely be a bad, if not dangerous, experience. I have been a backpacker since my college years
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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                    Howdy:
                    I think that a 50 miler without prior experience would likely
                    be a bad, if not dangerous, experience.

                    I have been a backpacker since my college years (1970s) and
                    a scout leader for about 8 years. This summer I took a few scouts
                    to Philmont, a 70 mile 10 day trek rated "strenuous". The scouts
                    were all at least 14 years old, but two who were age 14 were of
                    light build and could not have made it without adults to carry
                    part of their share of load.

                    My most important paragraph of advice:
                    If you would like to have scouts take grand trips like this, in the
                    coming Summer, start them conditioning NOW. Start with 1, 2, and 3 day
                    backpack trips ASAP, and shake down the gear and clothing that they
                    will take. Anybody who has not completed at LEAST 2 or 3 2-night
                    trips should not be allowed to go.

                    Most Scouts absolutely CAN manage a 50 miler, if they "are prepared".
                    It will take a few trips to work out what to take and how to use it
                    and what not to take on the big trek. We knew to take very little,
                    and still cast away 25% of our gear before hitting the trail at Philmont.
                    Unless you do the training trips, your troop will not be prepared.
                    The first trip may only be 3 miles one way, but it's enough to do gear
                    shakedown. They will learn about stoves and cooking with them,
                    learn they don't need that "messkit" they got for Christmas just a
                    large lexan mug or bowl and a lexan spoon, etc.

                    By the time we completed the last (long) day, we were joking about
                    carrying all the extra postage stamps we had. The adult packs were
                    running 50-plus pounds, and when we carried a full load of water,
                    they weighed more. This would be way too much for younger scouts.
                    Their mothers will want them to take everything but the sink,
                    and they know they only need 1 pair of underwear per week...natural
                    tension will arise. (Drop unnecessary gear (in the cars) at the
                    trailhead away from Mom's worried eyes).

                    Also critical will be foot care. This is a tough call for growing boys
                    because good hiking boots will be very important to completing a 50 miler
                    in mountains, and it's tough to ask some parents to cough up that kind of
                    money for something they will soon outgrow. One of our scouts had
                    high quality but oversized boots and the last, long day he was in real
                    pain coming down off the Tooth of Time ridge.

                    Itinerary: Plan short stretches the first few days to allow for conditioning.
                    It's surprising how soon you adapt to the pack and the trail, if
                    you are already in reasonable physical shape. Still, only plan about
                    5 miles or so the first couple days, especially if ascending. Descending
                    is harder on the feet and knees, ascent requires lungs and muscle.

                    Good luck and 73,
                    Chris Kelly, K0PF
                    Trustee W0BSA
                  • Dave Colter
                    Hi Mark, I m going to add my voice to the chorus of caution. I ve been a backpacker and winter climber for 40 years, and I ve lead dozens of tough trips for
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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                      Hi Mark,
                      I'm going to add my voice to the chorus of caution. I've been a backpacker
                      and winter climber for 40 years, and I've lead dozens of tough trips for
                      many age groups. The trip you describe is far too much for most 12-13 year
                      old Scouts, unless they all have been backpacking with their families for
                      many years, as my son did from age seven. If it was flatland, like Ohio or
                      Oklahoma, I'd say, "go for it," but not in the mountains at any altitude.
                      These kids are not likely to have either the skills or stamina. (I once made
                      the mistake of taking a younger group on a moderate 4 mile in/out early
                      winter trip and despite good preparation, we had a devil of a time with cold
                      and immature kids - and ticked-off parents when we got home.) We've always
                      limited 50-milers (and any really challenging expeditions, like winter
                      climbs above treeline) to First Class Scouts 14 and older. The age
                      requirement was partly for stamina and maturity, and the First Class
                      requirement was to be sure they had a little experience and all the basic
                      camping skills. We also did many shorter weekend trips and long days hikes
                      in preparation, beginning a year earlier. They started out with day packs on
                      the day trips, working up to full packs, and then adding more mileage, with
                      our longest day being about 10 miles in mountains. We did a bunch of 5 mile
                      in/5mile out overnights, sometimes two in one month.

                      The big problem wasn't getting the Scouts in shape - although they certainly
                      needed it - it was my ASMs and two dads! They really had to work hard to
                      overcome soft and unused leg and back muscles - and cardio-vascular
                      capacity. We also had two "reserve" dads and a mom who were available as
                      last minute stand-ins just in case one of the primary adults had to bail at
                      the last minute. You usually can't afford to be short an adult. The minimum
                      is three, but four is much better. Helps with double-deep leadership should
                      the group need to split up in an emergency. Also, consider the size of the
                      group you are taking on the trail. In most designated wilderness areas, the
                      USFS limits you to a maximum group size of 8-10. Even in non-regulated
                      areas, it's a good idea. Most back-country camping areas aren't large enough
                      to handle big groups, especially if there are other hikers using them as
                      well. It is also good policy from an ecology standpoint. I have done some
                      great trips with 8 older boys and 2 adults. Large groups also tend to get
                      dirty looks from other hikers, and Lord knows, BSA can't withstand too many
                      more dirty looks!

                      On the 50-miler, I think our longest day was 11 miles. We also found a way
                      to do re-supply mid-route (at a road crossing) coordinated via 2 meters.
                      (Six of my Scouts and two ASMs were hams, so we had plenty of radios.) The
                      mid-route resupply cut way down on the load everyone had to carry. When you
                      plan the food/water/group gear load, be sure to "under-load" everyone. If
                      you figure someone ought to be able to carry 8 pounds of group gear, plan
                      for 5 or 6. That way, if Johnny gets the sniffles on the day before the trip
                      and mommy keeps him home, you won't be overloading the rest of the group
                      with gear. Actually, that is more of a problem with 11-13 year olds than
                      14-17 year olds. We did have a secret weapon in the "heavy hauling"
                      department for a few years. While loading up before departure one trip, we
                      discovered that Tyler's patrol had bought some canned goods - about 15
                      pounds of them. Tyler was a 14yo PL, and most of his guys were younger and
                      smaller. I always knew Tyler was pretty rugged, but his Dad said "let's
                      stick all those cans in the bottom of Tyler's pack - he'll never notice." I
                      had my doubts, but we did it, and never heard a word from Tyler until we
                      reached our campsite. As he pulled out the cans, he said off-handedly, "I
                      thought this seemed a little heavy," and never mentioned it again. Tyler
                      made Eagle a few years later and is today a graduate student in wildlife
                      biology at the U of Alaska. I saw him at Thanksgiving, and he has grown into
                      one impressive young man!

                      But I digress. Bottom line - the trip your SM proposes is too much for those
                      little guys - do something easier as a prep trip, and plan the big one for
                      next year.
                      73,
                      Dave Colter WA1ZCN
                      Griswold Scout Reservation
                      Radio and Telephone Department
                      (Retired Scoutmaster, Troop 71 New London, NH)
                      www.geocities.com/nhscouter
                      www.scouttraveler.org

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Mark [mailto:markcm37@...]
                      > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 18:48
                      > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                      > I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                      > and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                      > to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                      > high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                      > up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                      > returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                      > (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                      > also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                      > this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                      > day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                      > would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                      > this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                      > What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark
                    • Dan Fisher
                      Mark, I m also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I m 50 years old (an old guy), but I m not sure *I*
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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                        Mark,

                        I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

                        I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

                        I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

                        73,
                        Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                        Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                        Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

                        Mark wrote:
                        Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                        I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                        and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                        to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                        high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                        up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                        returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                        (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                        also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                        this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                        day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                        would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                        this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                        What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




                        Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                        Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

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                        http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                        Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
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                        Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

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                      • Bill Stewart
                        Folks, I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don t just guess
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
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                          Folks,
                          I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

                          The age appropriate activities list is at http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
                          Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm

                          73,
                           Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


                          Dan Fisher wrote:
                          Mark,

                          I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

                          I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

                          I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

                          73,
                          Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                          Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                          Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

                          Mark wrote:
                          Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                          I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                          and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                          to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                          high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                          up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                          returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                          (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                          also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                          this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                          day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                          would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                          this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                          What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




                          Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                          Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                          Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                          http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                          Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                          http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                          Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                          ScoutRadio start page:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                          Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                          Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

                          SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES




                          Yahoo! Groups Links



                          Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                          Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                          Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                          http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                          Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                          http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                          Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                          ScoutRadio start page:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                          Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                          Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

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                        • Steven C. Gallafent
                          ... I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion: Bad weather hinders search for pair
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > I didn't come up with any articles with unitas scout in the archives.

                            I get four articles back. These are the three relevant to the discussion:

                            Bad weather hinders search for pair
                            http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510055025,00.html

                            Woman killed by lightning in Uintas
                            http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510047711,00.html

                            4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
                            http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html

                            Steve

                            Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                            steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                            "I used to be a Fox"
                          • Bill Stewart
                            Folks, Allow me to correct one link. Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 29, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Folks,
                              Allow me to correct one link.
                              Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html#aa

                              73,

                              Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


                              Bill Stewart wrote:
                              Folks,
                              I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

                              The age appropriate activities list is at http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
                              Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various camping activities including high-adventure camping: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm

                              73,
                               Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing Crew 80


                              Dan Fisher wrote:
                              Mark,

                              I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the other scoutmaster.

                              I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As  a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and exhaustion. At least one boy died.

                              I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a Venturing crew.

                              73,
                              Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                              Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                              Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council

                              Mark wrote:
                              Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                              I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                              and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                              to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                              high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                              up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                              returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                              (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                              also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                              this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                              day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                              would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                              this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                              What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks.  Mark




                              Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                              Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                              Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                              http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                              Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                              http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                              Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                              ScoutRadio start page:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                              Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                              Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

                              SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES




                              Yahoo! Groups Links



                              Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                              Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                              Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                              http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                              Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                              http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                              Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                              ScoutRadio start page:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                              Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                              Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

                              SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





                              Yahoo! Groups Links



                              Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk

                              Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth

                              Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                              http://www.ontargetbsa.org/

                              Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                              http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml

                              Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/

                              ScoutRadio start page:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)

                              Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                              Unsubscribe:  ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              List owner:   ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com

                              SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES





                              Yahoo! Groups Links

                            • davifish@bellsouth.net
                              Bill, Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up
                              Message 14 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Bill,

                                Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive answer, and as a side note, if the Guide is not followed, BSA will not back up the Scoutmaster in the event of a lawsuit.

                                73,
                                Dan KG4SDJ

                                >
                                > From: Bill Stewart <w2bsa@...>
                                > Date: 2003/12/29 Mon PM 11:16:50 EST
                                > To: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [Scoutradio] scout 50 miler
                                >
                                > Folks,
                                > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                                > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                                > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
                                >
                                > The age appropriate activities list is at
                                > http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html
                                > Here are the age guidelines from the Guide-to Safe-Scouting for various
                                > camping activities including high-adventure camping:
                                > http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xm
                                >
                                > 73,
                                > Bill Stewart, W2BSA, Unit Commissioner and Committee Member, Venturing
                                > Crew 80
                                >
                                >
                                > Dan Fisher wrote:
                                >
                                > > Mark,
                                > >
                                > > I'm also going to weigh in here. I am an assistant scoutmaster and a
                                > > police officer. Now, granted, I'm 50 years old (an old guy), but I'm
                                > > not sure *I* could do a 50 mile hike. Several other Scout leaders have
                                > > thrown in their $0.02, and I suspect that they have reinforced your
                                > > thoughts. Perhaps they have given you some thoughts to bring to the
                                > > other scoutmaster.
                                > >
                                > > I mention that I'm a police officer. I attended a seminar a few years
                                > > ago, basically dealing with stress in law enforcement. There are
                                > > various stereotypes that some in law enforcement have about scout
                                > > leaders. The lecturer mentioned a National Park ranger at the Grand
                                > > Canyon. His viewpoint of scout leaders is people who kill teenaged
                                > > boys. A Scoutmaster took a group of boys on a long hike inside the
                                > > Grand Canyon with little or no preparation of himself or the boys. As
                                > > a result, most of the group suffered exposure to the elements and
                                > > exhaustion. At least one boy died.
                                > >
                                > > I pray that the Scoutmaster you referred to does not become one of
                                > > those "killers of young boys." I hate to be melodramatic, but in my
                                > > profession I see life from a perspective most people don't have. It
                                > > makes me very cautious sometimes. I believe that 12 - 13 year old
                                > > Scouts are much too young to embark on a hike such as this. In my
                                > > viewpoint, it borders on child abuse. Save the 50-milers for a
                                > > Venturing crew.
                                > >
                                > > 73,
                                > > Dan Fisher, KG4SDJ
                                > > Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 734
                                > > Unit Commissioner, Manatee District, Central Florida Council
                                > >
                                > > Mark wrote:
                                > >
                                > >> Hi everyone. I'm new here but have been in scouting most of my life.
                                > >> I just want want to pose a question and hopefully get some responses
                                > >> and opinions from all you scouters. The scoutmaster in my ward wants
                                > >> to take a group of 12-13 year old scouts on a 50 mile trek in the
                                > >> high Uintas in Utah in July. They would start at the Chain Lakes go
                                > >> up through Atwood Basin and eventually ending at King's Peak and then
                                > >> returning the same way. They would be doing this in a 5/6 day period.
                                > >> (I did forget to mention that some of the older scouts would be going
                                > >> also and this however, is the first time this Scoutmaster has done
                                > >> this with the boys in our troop.) They would hike 13 miles the first
                                > >> day, gaining approximately 3000 ft. in elevation. The second day
                                > >> would be 11 miles and the third day 7 1/2 miles. Has anyone here done
                                > >> this trek? Is it appropriate for 12-13 year old boys?
                                > >> What do you all think? I appreciate all responses. Thanks. Mark
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                                > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                                > >>
                                > >> Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                                > >> subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                                > >>
                                > >> Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                > >> http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                                > >>
                                > >> Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                > >> http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                                > >>
                                > >> Visit the "Adventure Radio Society"
                                > >> http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                                > >>
                                > >> ScoutRadio start page:
                                > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                                > >> email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                                > >>
                                > >> Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                                > >> Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > >> List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                > >>
                                > >> SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >>
                                > >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
                                > >>
                                > >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > >> ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > >> <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                > >>
                                > >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                > >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups.
                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                                > >
                                > > Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them
                                > > subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                                > >
                                > > Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                > > http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                                > >
                                > > Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                > > http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                                > >
                                > > Visit the "Adventure Radio Society" http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                                > >
                                > > ScoutRadio start page:
                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member
                                > > email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                                > >
                                > > Post message: ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Unsubscribe: ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > List owner: ScoutRadio-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                > >
                                > > SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                > > <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cmdo7np/M=266841.4316200.5507732.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705066162:HM/EXP=1072841945/A=1911856/R=0/*http://www.lifescapeinc.com/picasa/landing.php?capid=222&caId=1985>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio/
                                > >
                                > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > <mailto:ScoutRadio-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                > >
                                > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >

                                73,
                                Dan KG4SDJ
                              • ClayMayrose@aol.com
                                Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision. It
                                Message 15 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can not see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult supervision.  It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that happen.

                                  Clay WA6LBU
                                  Wellston, OK

                                  In a message dated 12/29/03 10:28:12 PM Central Standard Time, steve@... writes:


                                  4 Scouts are missing on hike in High Uintas
                                  http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510040474,00.html


                                • Steven C. Gallafent
                                  ... answer... I ve read both of these and neither says 12-13 year old Boy Scouts should not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas. :) It s been a while since
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Dec 30, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    > I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                                    > Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                                    > folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.

                                    > Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
                                    answer...

                                    I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
                                    not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)

                                    It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
                                    remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.

                                    According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
                                    appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
                                    which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.

                                    The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:

                                    Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
                                    designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
                                    "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
                                    problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
                                    occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
                                    aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.

                                    And this:

                                    All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
                                    least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
                                    the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
                                    and safety of the youth in his or her care.

                                    And this:

                                    Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
                                    trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
                                    judgment.

                                    My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
                                    very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
                                    with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.

                                    Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
                                    units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
                                    units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
                                    the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
                                    and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
                                    would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
                                    trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
                                    suggested.

                                    With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
                                    had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
                                    be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
                                    bad experience.

                                    I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
                                    original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
                                    going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
                                    had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
                                    for their boys.

                                    > Thanks. I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
                                    not
                                    > see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
                                    supervision.
                                    > It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
                                    > happen.

                                    I used to say that very thing.

                                    There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
                                    couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
                                    out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
                                    wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.

                                    She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
                                    had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
                                    were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
                                    dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
                                    leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
                                    open and their legs hanging out.

                                    I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.

                                    Steve

                                    Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                                    steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                                    "I used to be a Fox"
                                  • Bill Stewart
                                    Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason that
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Dec 31, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Actually it does. It says that High-Adventure activites are for youth 13 and over. I would classify this as a High-Adventure activity. There is a reason
                                      that Venturing is for those 14 and over. It primarily does High-Adventure, whether it's backcountry camping and hiking or assisting the Red Cross in shelter operations.
                                      Look  at the age guidelines in the GSS.

                                      73,

                                      Bill Stewart, W2BSA

                                      Steven C. Gallafent wrote:
                                      I have read all of this and no one has meantioned the BSA
                                      Guide-to-Safe-Scouting or the age appropriate activities list. Please
                                      folks, don't just guess these will give you the details.
                                          
                                        
                                      Absolutely, positively correct. Guide to Safe Scouting is the definitive
                                          
                                      answer...
                                      
                                      I've read both of these and neither says "12-13 year old Boy Scouts should
                                      not go on 50-mile hikes in the Uintas." :)
                                      
                                      It's been a while since I've read the GSS cover-to-cover, but I don't
                                      remember anything in the book that directly answers the question.
                                      
                                      According to the age-appropriate guidelines list, multi-day hikes are
                                      appropriate for Boy Scouts. So is "backpacking -- overnight, backcountry,"
                                      which sounds like exactly what we're talking about.
                                      
                                      The Guide to Safe Scouting provides more detail, since it contains this:
                                      
                                      Anything can happen in the wild outdoors, and you should take measures
                                      designed to prevent accidents and injuries from occurring. Ask the question:
                                      "What would happen if ________ occurred?" Once you have identified possible
                                      problems, devise a plan to minimize the risks and to manage a crisis if one
                                      occurs. Involve the entire crew in this process so that everyone becomes
                                      aware of potential dangers and how to avoid them.
                                      
                                      And this:
                                      
                                      All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at
                                      least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with
                                      the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being
                                      and safety of the youth in his or her care.
                                      
                                      And this:
                                      
                                      Obviously, the best way to stay safe in the wilderness is to not get into
                                      trouble in the first place. This requires planning, leadership, and good
                                      judgment.
                                      
                                      My interpretation of the discussion has been that we're discussing these
                                      very questions so that the original poster can make his own determination
                                      with the troop as to whether or not this activity is appropriate.
                                      
                                      Having been a unit commissioner for a while, I can say that, for the eight
                                      units I worked with, this trip would received mixed reviews. For a couple of
                                      units, I'd have said "have a good time." With those units, I would know that
                                      the adult leaders would have already had the discussion we're having here
                                      and would already have asked the "What would happen if ..." questions. They
                                      would also lead the boys through the process of preparing themselves for the
                                      trip, including conditioning hikes and everything else that has been
                                      suggested.
                                      
                                      With some of the other units, I would be concerned that the adults hadn't
                                      had this discussion and hadn't asked "what if." In those same cases, I would
                                      be concerned that the preparation wouldn't happen and the trip would be a
                                      bad experience.
                                      
                                      I guess my point is that I don't read anything in the GSS that answers the
                                      original question: Is this an appropriate trip? The troop in question is
                                      going to have to look at the proposed activity and the discussion we have
                                      had and determine, in their own good judgment, whether this is appropriate
                                      for their boys.
                                      
                                        
                                      Thanks.  I had the name of the mountain range mispelled. I personally can
                                          
                                      not
                                        
                                      see how, in the last story, 4 boys started a trek with out adult
                                          
                                      supervision.
                                        
                                      It might be just me but, our troop would never let sonething like that
                                      happen.
                                          
                                      I used to say that very thing.
                                      
                                      There were two separate incidents a few weeks apart in Salt Lake City a
                                      couple of years ago where scouts riding in the back of a pickup (gasp!) fell
                                      out and were killed. I mentioned to my wife that the leaders in our units
                                      wouldn't do that because we constantly harped on those safety rules.
                                      
                                      She took that opportunity to point out to me that, a few weeks earlier, she
                                      had been at an activity (boys and girls) with some of those leaders. They
                                      were doing a service project picking up trash along a one-mile stretch of
                                      dirt road. At the end of the trip, the boys climbed into the back of the
                                      leader's van and drove back down to the start of the road with the hatchback
                                      open and their legs hanging out.
                                      
                                      I'll bet you can't guess what I would say if he suggested this 50-miler.
                                      
                                      Steve
                                      
                                      Steven C. Gallafent - The Computer Guy
                                      steve@... - http://www.compguy.com/
                                      "I used to be a Fox"
                                      
                                      
                                      Check out the UK Radio-Scouting page here at Yahoo!Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radio-scouting-uk
                                      
                                      Now that you've got new licensees in your unit, why not have them subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadioYouth
                                      
                                      Visit "Operation On Target BSA" Mountain Top Signaling:
                                      http://www.ontargetbsa.org/
                                      
                                      Great list of Scouting/Amateur Radio web sites:
                                      http://www.k1dwu.net/ham-links/clubs.-.scouting.phtml
                                      
                                      Visit the &quot;Adventure Radio Society&quot; http://www.natworld.com/ars/
                                      
                                      ScoutRadio start page:
                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScoutRadio (Email archives - member email addresses - change your subscription details, etc.)
                                      
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