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Re: FRS Radios at Scout Camp

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  • TJ-wd4nhh
    I think we ( scouts and scouters ) should stay on CH.7 and below because there were alot of early made FRS radios that had only 7 CH s and 6 or 7 PL tones ,
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 25, 1999
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      I think we ( scouts and scouters ) should stay on CH.7 and below

      because there were alot of early made FRS radios that had only 7 CH's

      and 6 or 7 PL tones , also if you use CH.8 and above you may

      interfer with GMRS Repeters because they are near there inputs Freq.'s .

      There was a very good article about FRS radio's in the October 98

      issue of Nuts & Volts .

      Seeeee Yaaaaa
      T.J. WD4NHH
      wd4nhh@...
      Pack 301 Den 3 Asst. Den Leader


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...>
      To: Scout Radio <scoutradio@onelist.com>
      Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 7:39 PM
      Subject: [scoutradio] FRS Radios at Scout Camp


      >From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...>
      >
      >For the last year, I have been pushing the use of FRS radios in support of
      >Scouting. Having just spent the weekend at "Woodsmoke 99", with over
      >1000 scouts and scouters, I am modifying my suggestions somewhat from
      >lessons learned. Here is a current suggested plan (and open to any
      >comments or constructive criticism)...
      >--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >SCOUT COMMUNICATIONS: (Draft-1 WB4APR)
      >
      > 1) BE RADIOACTIVE!
      >
      > 2) Monitor channel-1. Channel-1, Tone-0 is the SCOUTS CHANNEL.
      > When arriving in the woods or to an event, look for others or
      > for your buddies here. If it is not too crowded, stay on channel 1
      > whenever you are outdoors and looking for others.
      >
      > 3) Scout camps, jamboree's and other large gatherings should designate
      > channel 9 tone 9, as the official LEADERS CHANNEL or event
      > calling channel. THe event organizers, VIP's and
      > scoutmasters and FIRST AID tent should monitor this channel
      > throughout the event for administrative items, logistics,
      > emergencies. Keep this channel for ALERTING all leaders to
      > changing or evolving events only. Do not use it for routine
      > operations (and chatter. Or everyone will stop listening to it).
      >
      > 4) Designate channel 10, tone 10 as the first general operations
      > or staff channel. THis is where they coordinate things
      > internally for routine operations as needed.
      > By publishing it, then at least other scouts can find it if
      > needed and/or they cannot raise anyone on 9/9.
      >
      > 5) ALL SCOUTS should be taught radio-telephone procedure and courtesy:
      > * Always use a callsign. For 500 scouts there are 500
      > "DAD's". Agree to your family calls before hand.
      > * Do not transmit on a channel until it is clear
      > * Do not clog up the channel with play if there are others
      > waiting to use it.
      > * Follow the scout law: Trustworthy, Helpful, friendly,
      > Courteous, and cheerful.
      > * To move up in radio to greater range, data, and satellite
      > communications, study and earn your Amateur Radio License.
      >
      > 6) Consider having a "COMMUNICATIONS" session at all scouting events
      > where appropriate. Just like knot tying, encampment, cooking,
      > artist sportsman, have a session on COMMUNICATIONS (even though
      > 2-way radio is not even mentioned in the WEBLOS BOOK under that
      > chapter!! (and the cover photo is of a kid with headphones on!)
      >
      > 7) Most legacy CAMP Literature contains a warning telling everyone NOT
      > TO BRING RADIOS to camp. Please work wihthin your council to
      > re-word this to permit "2-way" radios.
      >
      > 8) Look for applications of radio fun. Consider a FOX hunt, where the
      > fox hides and is required to answer yes/no questions. Use it for
      > oreinteering. Have scout patrols report their position by
      > compass "bearing" lines from known objects and have others plot
      > their locations on the map and then give them "movement orders"
      > to the next station. Etc.
      >
      > 9) Introduce these concepts at your council. Lets get them codified
      > into the scouting books and the RADIO merit badges...
      >
      >Send comments/suggestions to Bob Bruninga, WB4APR (wb4apr@...).
      >---------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >>SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
      >

      __________________________________________
      NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
      Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
      http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
    • TJ-wd4nhh
      Something I forgot to put in my last message about FRS radios is that alot of the cheaper new ones have 14 CH s but have no PL tones . Seeee Yaaaaa T.J.
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 25, 1999
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        Something I forgot to put in my last message about FRS radios

        is that alot of the cheaper new ones have 14 CH's but have no PL tones .

        Seeee Yaaaaa
        T.J. WD4NHH
        wd4nhh@...
        Pack 301 Den 3 Asst. Den leader
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...>
        To: Scout Radio <scoutradio@onelist.com>
        Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 7:39 PM
        Subject: [scoutradio] FRS Radios at Scout Camp


        >From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...>
        >
        >For the last year, I have been pushing the use of FRS radios in support of
        >Scouting. Having just spent the weekend at "Woodsmoke 99", with over
        >1000 scouts and scouters, I am modifying my suggestions somewhat from
        >lessons learned. Here is a current suggested plan (and open to any
        >comments or constructive criticism)...
        >--------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >SCOUT COMMUNICATIONS: (Draft-1 WB4APR)
        >
        > 1) BE RADIOACTIVE!
        >
        > 2) Monitor channel-1. Channel-1, Tone-0 is the SCOUTS CHANNEL.
        > When arriving in the woods or to an event, look for others or
        > for your buddies here. If it is not too crowded, stay on channel 1
        > whenever you are outdoors and looking for others.
        >
        > 3) Scout camps, jamboree's and other large gatherings should designate
        > channel 9 tone 9, as the official LEADERS CHANNEL or event
        > calling channel. THe event organizers, VIP's and
        > scoutmasters and FIRST AID tent should monitor this channel
        > throughout the event for administrative items, logistics,
        > emergencies. Keep this channel for ALERTING all leaders to
        > changing or evolving events only. Do not use it for routine
        > operations (and chatter. Or everyone will stop listening to it).
        >
        > 4) Designate channel 10, tone 10 as the first general operations
        > or staff channel. THis is where they coordinate things
        > internally for routine operations as needed.
        > By publishing it, then at least other scouts can find it if
        > needed and/or they cannot raise anyone on 9/9.
        >
        > 5) ALL SCOUTS should be taught radio-telephone procedure and courtesy:
        > * Always use a callsign. For 500 scouts there are 500
        > "DAD's". Agree to your family calls before hand.
        > * Do not transmit on a channel until it is clear
        > * Do not clog up the channel with play if there are others
        > waiting to use it.
        > * Follow the scout law: Trustworthy, Helpful, friendly,
        > Courteous, and cheerful.
        > * To move up in radio to greater range, data, and satellite
        > communications, study and earn your Amateur Radio License.
        >
        > 6) Consider having a "COMMUNICATIONS" session at all scouting events
        > where appropriate. Just like knot tying, encampment, cooking,
        > artist sportsman, have a session on COMMUNICATIONS (even though
        > 2-way radio is not even mentioned in the WEBLOS BOOK under that
        > chapter!! (and the cover photo is of a kid with headphones on!)
        >
        > 7) Most legacy CAMP Literature contains a warning telling everyone NOT
        > TO BRING RADIOS to camp. Please work wihthin your council to
        > re-word this to permit "2-way" radios.
        >
        > 8) Look for applications of radio fun. Consider a FOX hunt, where the
        > fox hides and is required to answer yes/no questions. Use it for
        > oreinteering. Have scout patrols report their position by
        > compass "bearing" lines from known objects and have others plot
        > their locations on the map and then give them "movement orders"
        > to the next station. Etc.
        >
        > 9) Introduce these concepts at your council. Lets get them codified
        > into the scouting books and the RADIO merit badges...
        >
        >Send comments/suggestions to Bob Bruninga, WB4APR (wb4apr@...).
        >---------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >>SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
        >

        __________________________________________
        NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
        Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
        http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
      • TJ-wd4nhh
        The two channel radio s I ve seen have channel s 1 & 8 . T.J. WD4NHH wd4nhh@netzero.net ... From: Bob Bruninga To:
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 25, 1999
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          The two channel radio's I've seen have channel's 1 & 8 .

          T.J. WD4NHH
          wd4nhh@...

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...>
          To: scoutradio@onelist.com <scoutradio@onelist.com>
          Date: Monday, October 25, 1999 9:15 PM
          Subject: Re: [scoutradio] FRS Radios at Scout Camp


          >From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...>
          >
          >On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, TJ-wd4nhh wrote Something he forgot to put in his
          >last message about FRS radios:
          >>
          >> is that alot of the cheaper new ones have 14 CH's but have no PL tones .
          >
          >Yes, That is why I proposed channel 1 no tone as the calling "fun" channel
          >for scouts at all times... But after my weekend with 1000 cubscouts, I
          >grew weary of the "chatter" and thats why I modified my suggestion so that
          >the leaders could have a more private "back channel". Only the leader
          >needs the ch9/tone9 radio.
          >
          >Also, I noticed that most radios are NOT made for quick QSY or changing
          >tones, so all planing should consider that the leader may need 2 radios,
          >one for his kids and one for the leaders channel...
          >
          >I chose 9/9 simply as a parallel to "CB" channel 9, but if there is any
          >other combination of digits that is "common" in scouting, then I am happy
          >if we choose that instead. Since many "families" and general public may
          >also think in terms of choosing the same CH/TONE combos, then 9/9 may have
          >more QRM from non scouters than if we did something totally off the wall
          >such as 9/15. (dont go above 15 since many radios only offer the first 15
          >tones...)
          >
          >Also, I noticed many 2 channel radios being sold. What is the 2nd
          >channel? We might want to avoid that one too...
          >
          >bob
          >
          >>SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
          >

          __________________________________________
          NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
          Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
          http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
        • Bob Bruninga
          On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, TJ-wd4nhh wrote Something he forgot to put in his ... Yes, That is why I proposed channel 1 no tone as the calling fun channel for
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 25, 1999
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            On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, TJ-wd4nhh wrote Something he forgot to put in his
            last message about FRS radios:
            >
            > is that alot of the cheaper new ones have 14 CH's but have no PL tones .

            Yes, That is why I proposed channel 1 no tone as the calling "fun" channel
            for scouts at all times... But after my weekend with 1000 cubscouts, I
            grew weary of the "chatter" and thats why I modified my suggestion so that
            the leaders could have a more private "back channel". Only the leader
            needs the ch9/tone9 radio.

            Also, I noticed that most radios are NOT made for quick QSY or changing
            tones, so all planing should consider that the leader may need 2 radios,
            one for his kids and one for the leaders channel...

            I chose 9/9 simply as a parallel to "CB" channel 9, but if there is any
            other combination of digits that is "common" in scouting, then I am happy
            if we choose that instead. Since many "families" and general public may
            also think in terms of choosing the same CH/TONE combos, then 9/9 may have
            more QRM from non scouters than if we did something totally off the wall
            such as 9/15. (dont go above 15 since many radios only offer the first 15
            tones...)

            Also, I noticed many 2 channel radios being sold. What is the 2nd
            channel? We might want to avoid that one too...

            bob
          • Ray J. Vaughan
            ... Have you thought about an interface to GMRS? If I m there with my GMRS radio, I can legally talk to FRS users (http://www.rayvaughan.com/gmrs.htm) on the
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 25, 1999
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              At 05:15 PM 10/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
              >From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...>
              >I chose 9/9 simply as a parallel to "CB" channel 9, but if there is any
              >other combination of digits that is "common" in scouting, then I am happy
              >if we choose that instead. Since many "families" and general public may
              >also think in terms of choosing the same CH/TONE combos, then 9/9 may have
              >more QRM from non scouters than if we did something totally off the wall
              >such as 9/15. (dont go above 15 since many radios only offer the first 15
              >tones...)

              Have you thought about an interface to GMRS? If I'm there with my GMRS
              radio, I can legally talk to FRS users (http://www.rayvaughan.com/gmrs.htm)
              on the 462 channels we have in common. Would that be a good choice for the
              camp HQ maybe? Of course, anyone using the radio in the office would need
              to get their own GMRS license. Active Scout masters might also want to
              upgrade. 2 watts of "Come back to camp" on a base antenna would be better
              than milliwatts.

              Ray J. Vaughan, MS, CBTE
              KD4BBM PG-7-15266
              http://www.rayvaughan.com/
              ray@...
            • Bob Bruninga
              ... Interesting, yes, I bought eery GMRS radio I could find when Radio Shack closed them out... But I was pretty sure that the rules prohibit one service
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 26, 1999
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                On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Ray J. Vaughan wrote:

                > Have you thought about an interface to GMRS? If I'm there with my GMRS
                > radio, I can legally talk to FRS users (http://www.rayvaughan.com/gmrs.htm)
                > on the 462 channels we have in common. Would that be a good choice for the
                > camp HQ maybe?

                Interesting, yes, I bought eery GMRS radio I could find when Radio Shack
                closed them out... But I was pretty sure that the "rules" prohibit one
                service from talking to the other... even though we know they are
                identical on the 7 interstitial channels. (but the FRS uses 2.5 KHz
                deviatino and the GMRS uses 5. I find that the GMRS are not frequency
                stable enough to remain in the passband of the FRS, and thus, the FRS
                frequently squleches them out...

                bob
              • TJ-wd4nhh
                GMRS and FRS channels are not the same . FRS channel s are inbetween the GMRS channels and they are called splinter Freq. s . T.J. WD4NHH wd4nhh@netzero.net
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 26, 1999
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                  GMRS and FRS channels are not the same . FRS channel's are

                  inbetween the GMRS channels and they are called splinter Freq.'s .

                  T.J. WD4NHH
                  wd4nhh@...
                  Pack 301 Den 3 Asst. Den Leader
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Ray J. Vaughan <ray@...>
                  To: scoutradio@onelist.com <scoutradio@onelist.com>
                  Date: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 3:51 AM
                  Subject: Re: [scoutradio] FRS Radios at Scout Camp


                  >From: "Ray J. Vaughan" <ray@...>
                  >
                  >At 05:15 PM 10/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
                  >>From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...>
                  >>I chose 9/9 simply as a parallel to "CB" channel 9, but if there is any
                  >>other combination of digits that is "common" in scouting, then I am happy
                  >>if we choose that instead. Since many "families" and general public may
                  >>also think in terms of choosing the same CH/TONE combos, then 9/9 may have
                  >>more QRM from non scouters than if we did something totally off the wall
                  >>such as 9/15. (dont go above 15 since many radios only offer the first 15
                  >>tones...)
                  >
                  >Have you thought about an interface to GMRS? If I'm there with my GMRS
                  >radio, I can legally talk to FRS users (http://www.rayvaughan.com/gmrs.htm)
                  >on the 462 channels we have in common. Would that be a good choice for the
                  >camp HQ maybe? Of course, anyone using the radio in the office would need
                  >to get their own GMRS license. Active Scout masters might also want to
                  >upgrade. 2 watts of "Come back to camp" on a base antenna would be better
                  >than milliwatts.
                  >
                  > Ray J. Vaughan, MS, CBTE
                  > KD4BBM PG-7-15266
                  > http://www.rayvaughan.com/
                  > ray@...
                  >
                  >>SCOUTING and AMATEUR RADIO - FUN FOR ALL AGES
                  >

                  __________________________________________
                  NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
                  Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
                  http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
                • Bob Bruninga
                  ... Sort of. The GMRS had added seven interstitial channels. These then were converted to FRS when the FRS service was enacted. SO you are right that
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 26, 1999
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                    On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, TJ-wd4nhh wrote:

                    > From: "TJ-wd4nhh" <wd4nhh@...>
                    >
                    > GMRS and FRS channels are not the same . FRS channel's are
                    >
                    > inbetween the GMRS channels and they are called splinter Freq.'s .

                    Sort of. The GMRS had added seven "interstitial" channels.
                    These then were converted to "FRS" when the FRS service was enacted. SO
                    you are right that they were not part of the ancient GMRS channels, but
                    they were part of the GMRS servicve recently... I guess it depends on
                    what you call GMRS...?

                    Or at least that was the way I understood it. My GMRS radios talk fine on
                    the "interstitial" channels with FRS units (except for the difference in
                    deviation and frequency stability...

                    bob
                  • Ray Vaughan
                    ... True, but GMRS licensees are permitted to use the seven 462 MHz splinters also. And at more power than the FRS users on the same channels. (but not as
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 26, 1999
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                      At 12:29 PM 10/26/99 -0000, you wrote:
                      >From: "TJ-wd4nhh" <wd4nhh@...>
                      >
                      >GMRS and FRS channels are not the same . FRS channel's are
                      >
                      >inbetween the GMRS channels and they are called splinter Freq.'s .
                      >
                      >T.J. WD4NHH
                      >wd4nhh@...

                      True, but GMRS licensees are permitted to use the seven 462 MHz splinters
                      also. And at more power than the FRS users on the same channels. (but not
                      as much as on the regular GMRS channels) There was some question as to
                      GMRS <-> FRS traffic being legal, but there's a Opinion and Order from the
                      FCC approving it. To see this, go to this page:

                      http://www.rayvaughan.com/gmrs.htm

                      So, as I read it, GMRS licensees CAN communicate with FRS users, but on
                      only 7 channels. The selection of Scout channels might want to take those
                      7 into consideration.




                      Ray J. Vaughan, MS, CBTE
                      KD4BBM
                      ray@...
                      http://www.rayvaughan.com/
                    • Ray Vaughan
                      ... To follow up on this a bit more: http://www.dougweb.com/gmrsinter.html This shows the GMRS Interstitial and FRS channels side by side. It looks like FRS
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 26, 1999
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                        At 01:47 PM 10/26/99 -0400, you wrote:
                        >From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...>
                        >Sort of. The GMRS had added seven "interstitial" channels.
                        >These then were converted to "FRS" when the FRS service was enacted. SO
                        >you are right that they were not part of the ancient GMRS channels, but
                        >they were part of the GMRS servicve recently... I guess it depends on
                        >what you call GMRS...?

                        To follow up on this a bit more:

                        http://www.dougweb.com/gmrsinter.html

                        This shows the GMRS Interstitial and FRS channels side by side. It looks
                        like FRS users on channels 1-7 get to talk to GMRS licensees, they're on
                        their own on channels 8-14. So the 9-9 suggestion for Emergencies might
                        need to be reconsidered if you would want to have GMRS as part of your
                        camp's plan.


                        Ray J. Vaughan, MS, CBTE
                        KD4BBM
                        ray@...
                        http://www.rayvaughan.com/
                      • Bob Bruninga
                        2-channel FRS radios on sale this and next week at Best Buy for $49 a PAIR! Brand name VOX-BOX (do not have VOX circuits). No PL. Run on 4 AAA s. 500 mw...
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 26, 1999
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                          2-channel FRS radios on sale this and next week at Best Buy for $49
                          a PAIR! Brand name VOX-BOX (do not have VOX circuits).

                          No PL. Run on 4 AAA's. 500 mw... (max legal power)

                          Not a bad radio for $25 each...

                          Not exactly APRS, but still useful at a special event...

                          de WB4APR, Bob
                        • Bob Bruninga
                          ... Good point. I guess then channel 7? Who cares about channel-9 anyway... it was only a vague reeerence to CB... and I am happy to distance ourselves
                          Message 12 of 15 , Oct 28, 1999
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                            On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Ray Vaughan wrote:

                            > This shows the GMRS Interstitial and FRS channels side by side. It looks
                            > like FRS users on channels 1-7 get to talk to GMRS licensees, they're on
                            > their own on channels 8-14. So the 9-9 suggestion for Emergencies might
                            > need to be reconsidered if you would want to have GMRS as part of your
                            > camp's plan.

                            Good point. I guess then channel 7? Who cares about "channel-9"
                            anyway... it was only a vague reeerence to CB... and I am happy to
                            distance ourselves from CB as much as possible.

                            ALSO, I find it bad that all the documents in the FRS packages offer
                            NOTHING IN THE WAY OF USER EDUCATION about how to use a radio and proper
                            radiotelephone technique...

                            At the beach, you hear "DADDY", then "DADDY! WHere are you !"
                            Ie, no callsigns....

                            I think the docs shouls "suggest to users the use of personal callsigns"

                            bob
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