Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Banning MSPs from parliament is undemocratic ALWAYS!

Expand Messages
  • Eleanor Hall
    Hello, Peter, Scottish War Prisoners is a genealogy group for those interested in the descendents of Scottish prisoners of war taken at two 18th century
    Message 1 of 2 , Jun 28, 2008
      Hello, Peter,

      Scottish War Prisoners is a genealogy group for those interested in the descendents of Scottish prisoners of war taken at two 18th century battles with the English!

      Political messages are not appropriate to us, so please take us off your mailing list. This revers to scottish_war_prisoners@yahoogroups.com and also scottishwarprisoners.

      Thank you,

      Eleanor Hall, Moderator

      --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Peter Dow <peterdow@...> wrote:

      > From: Peter Dow <peterdow@...>
      > Subject: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Banning MSPs from parliament is undemocratic ALWAYS!
      > To: "scotsforindependence@yahoogroups.com" <scotsforindependence@yahoogroups.com>, "scotslawforum@yahoogroups.com" <scotslawforum@yahoogroups.com>, "scotswhahey@yahoogroups.com" <scotswhahey@yahoogroups.com>, "ScotTeens2@yahoogroups.com" <ScotTeens2@yahoogroups.com>, "Scottish-Irish-Genealogy@yahoogroups.com" <Scottish-Irish-Genealogy@yahoogroups.com>, "scottish-juniors@yahoogroups.com" <scottish-juniors@yahoogroups.com>, "scottish_war_prisoners@yahoogroups.com" <scottish_war_prisoners@yahoogroups.com>, "scottishamericanclub@yahoogroups.com" <scottishamericanclub@yahoogroups.com>, "ScottishAncestry@yahoogroups.com" <ScottishAncestry@yahoogroups.com>, "scottishchat@yahoogroups.com" <scottishchat@yahoogroups.com>, "scottishcouncil@yahoogroups.com" <scottishcouncil@yahoogroups.com>, "scottishglobal@yahoogroups.com" <scottishglobal@yahoogroups.com>, "scottishindependence@yahoogroups.com" <scottishindependence@yahoogroups.com>,
      "ScottishInvasion@yahoogroups.com" <ScottishInvasion@yahoogroups.com>, "scottishlove@yahoogroups.com" <scottishlove@yahoogroups.com>, "scottishrepublicanarmy@yahoogroups.com" <scottishrepublicanarmy@yahoogroups.com>, "ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com" <ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com>, "scotwatch@yahoogroups.com" <scotwatch@yahoogroups.com>, "sla2@yahoogroups.com" <sla2@yahoogroups.com>, "soc-culture-scottish@yahoogroups.com" <soc-culture-scottish@yahoogroups.com>, "SonoranScotsmen@yahoogroups.com" <SonoranScotsmen@yahoogroups.com>, "sophiemarceaucenter@yahoogroups.com" <sophiemarceaucenter@yahoogroups.com>, "startrekscotland@..." <startrekscotland@...>, "steve301@..." <steve301@...>, "StewartTartan@yahoogroups.com" <StewartTartan@yahoogroups.com>, "stirlingstudentsagainstg8@yahoogroups.com" <stirlingstudentsagainstg8@yahoogroups.com>, "StirlingUni@yahoogroups.com"
      <StirlingUni@yahoogroups.com>, "stormeighsromancereader@yahoogroups.com" <stormeighsromancereader@yahoogroups.com>, "taofna@yahoogroups.com" <taofna@yahoogroups.com>, "TartanDayPACommittee@yahoogroups.com" <TartanDayPACommittee@yahoogroups.com>, "tartandinnergroup@yahoogroups.com" <tartandinnergroup@yahoogroups.com>, "thecladdaghclub@yahoogroups.com" <thecladdaghclub@yahoogroups.com>, "theedinburghdatingclub@yahoogroups.com" <theedinburghdatingclub@yahoogroups.com>, "TheKiltClub@yahoogroups.com" <thekiltclub@yahoogroups.com>, "thescottishclub@yahoogroups.com" <thescottishclub@yahoogroups.com>, "theswinginbaleclub@yahoogroups.com" <theswinginbaleclub@yahoogroups.com>, "thetartanarmy2@yahoogroups.com" <thetartanarmy2@yahoogroups.com>, "tokyopenfriend@..." <tokyopenfriend@...>, "truescotsman@..." <truescotsman@...>, "tullochard@yahoogroups.com" <tullochard@yahoogroups.com>,
      "uddingston@yahoogroups.com" <uddingston@yahoogroups.com>, "UFOScotland@yahoogroups.com" <ufoscotland@yahoogroups.com>, "ul-g@yahoogroups.com" <ul-g@yahoogroups.com>, "ulster-scots@..." <ulster-scots@...>, "UlsterScot@yahoogroups.com" <UlsterScot@yahoogroups.com>, "wearinothekilt@yahoogroups.com" <wearinothekilt@yahoogroups.com>, "wehateglasgowrangers@yahoogroups.com" <wehateglasgowrangers@yahoogroups.com>, "westcoast_scots@yahoogroups.com" <westcoast_scots@yahoogroups.com>, "williamwallaceta@yahoogroups.com" <williamwallaceta@yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 12:46 PM
      > An open letter -
      > Dear Members of the Scottish Parliament,
      > Well I note that yet again there are moves afoot to ban
      > an MSP from parliament for a time - this time Wendy
      > Alexander.
      > Labour leader faces one-day ban
      > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7474475.stm
      > Although only a one-day ban is being proposed, other MSPs
      > have been banned from parliament for longer periods.
      > Colin Fox MSP, Frances Curran MSP, Rosie Kane MSP and
      > Carolyn Leckie MSP were given a one-month Holyrood ban,
      > July 2005
      > Mike Pringle MSP was given a five-day Holyrood ban,
      > September 2006
      > Brian Monteith MSP was given a five-day Holyrood ban, March
      > 2007.
      > Now, as I have explained in the webpage the text of which
      > is appended as a PS to this email letter - and here is the
      > link to the webpage
      > http://scot.f-sw.com/scotlandscommandauthority.htm
      > these bans are wrong in democratic theory and would be
      > held to be unconstitutional under a democratic
      > constitution.
      > I also argue in my webpage that there are very serious
      > consequential derogations to the democratic command
      > authority of the officers of the state during the period of
      > such bans.
      > Even someone deemed to be a convicted murderer, who
      > nevertheless was elected to parliament - should be brought
      > to parliament - with a police escort if necessary - in
      > order to carry out their duties in parliament.
      > Now I do not know if Bobby Sands, elected as an MP, but who
      > was imprisoned for terrorist crimes in Northern Ireland (by
      > the UK state) would have wanted to go to Westminster - but
      > he should have been allowed and facilitated to attend
      > parliament when in session.
      > Now sadly and to our severe disadvantage, we Scots do not
      > live under a democratic constitution but democrats still
      > should insist that there should be a duty on the state to
      > defend elected parliamentarians' rights to attend
      > parliament - therefore legal and military action to uphold
      > those rights is very much in order, now today and at any
      > time, and the bans themselves are very much "out of
      > order" in democratic theory.
      > These bans and the associated suppression of elected
      > representatives are some of the most serious failings of
      > the UK state rule in Scotland.
      > These bans are very damaging to the nation and so Scots
      > should put their minds to putting a stop to these bans
      > which have hugely damaging consequences to Scottish
      > democracy.
      > _________________
      > Peter Dow, Scottish National Standard Bearer
      > http://scot.bravehost.com
      > PS Here is the text of my web-page -
      > http://scot.f-sw.com/scotlandscommandauthority.htm#boxes
      > To identify and to flag up Scotland's current command
      > authority. All Ranks 1 to 13
      > Click for: Ranks 1 to 4 ___ Ranks 5 to 8 ___ Ranks 9 to 11
      > ___ Ranks 12 & 13
      > The constitutional rights of the Scottish people and
      > parliament. The sovereignty of the people. RANK
      > Flag, arms, logo, symbol or similar PEOPLE OR PERSON
      > Official websites are linked to in this column COMMENT
      > Links in this column are to this website 1
      > Highest
      > Rank
      > National Anthem The People of Scotland, who, as a
      > nation, are sovereign. Defending the Scots'
      > sovereign political rights and independence 2
      > Highest Ranking Body The Scottish Parliament, having
      > acting sovereignty.
      > See the coloured boxes below for advice on acting
      > sovereignty and constitutional ranks. Worthwhile
      > institution, mostly rubbish MSPs 3
      > Highest Ranking Person
      > View Mace The Presiding Officer of the Scottish
      > Parliament, who is ex officio entitled to act as Scottish
      > head of state. Presiding Officers Failings. Betrayal and
      > surrender to Queen Elizabeth. Traitors! 4
      > 2 M.S.P.s The Deputy Presiding Officers.
      > RANK Flag, arms, logo, symbol or similar PEOPLE
      > OR PERSON
      > Official websites are linked to in this column COMMENT
      > Links in this column are to this website 5
      > An M.S.P. The First Minister. First
      > Minister's Scottish Executive Failings
      > Scottish Nationalist Failings Scottish Green Failings
      > 6
      > An M.S.P. The Deputy First Minister. 7
      > M.S.P.s The Cabinet Secretaries of the Executive.
      > 8
      > An M.S.P. The Leader of the Opposition Scottish
      > Labour Failings
      > RANK Flag, arms, logo, symbol or similar PEOPLE
      > OR PERSON
      > Official websites are linked to in this column COMMENT
      > Links in this column are to this website 9
      > M.S.P.s The Ministers of the Executive. See
      > COMMENTS for Ranks 5,6 & 7 10
      > Other M.S.P.s All other Members of the Scottish
      > Parliament. M.S.P.s may practice quasi-subdivisions of this
      > rank - promoting party or committee leaders etc. Scottish
      > Liberal Democrat Failings
      > MSPs parties and true allegiance
      > 11
      > Highest ranking non-M.S.P.s The senior officials of
      > the Scottish Parliament (such as the Clerk/Chief Executive
      > to the Parliament, appointed or SACKED by the Presiding
      > Officer). The advice given to our trusting M.S.P.s by
      > these officials is often incompetent and therefore these
      > officials do great damage to the proper work of the
      > parliament. The senior officials of the Scottish
      > Executive (such as the "Permanent" Secretary and
      > the Lord Advocate, appointed or SACKED by the First
      > Minister).
      > The constitutional rights of individual Scots. The limits
      > to command authority. RANK PEOPLE OR PERSON
      > Official websites are linked to in this column COMMENT
      > Links in this column are to this website 12
      > Traditional or unreformed commanders, if appointed or
      > tolerated by the Scottish Parliament.
      > They are NOT so independent as to be a law unto themselves.
      > Other persons with Scottish command authority, such as
      > the Judiciary and the Courts, the Police, Military - 2nd
      > Division Craigiehall, 51st (Scottish) Brigade, Stirling,
      > The Royal Regiment of Scotland, Army Training Estate
      > Scotland, Royal Navy, Royal Air Force, local authorities
      > (check out their web sites) and so on.
      > These people used to command in Scotland pretty much as
      > they liked before the reconvening of the Scottish
      > Parliament. Then, excepting the elected Councillors, these
      > commanders seemed as independent and unaccountable as Adolf
      > Hitler was.
      > Now, their arbitrary exercise of power is under greater
      > scrutiny but still many of them are reckless, foolish and
      > very damaging to the people of Scotland.
      > Historically, these commanders like to suck up to royalty
      > but their royal seals, warrants, charters, knighthoods or
      > other honours won't of itself get them any advancement
      > in Scotland's command authority rankings.
      > Scottish authority is derived from the election mandate of
      > the Scots. Threats from within Scotland. The fascist
      > police state.
      > Arrogant and tyrannical judges
      > Police sadistic torturers
      > Law and order within Scotland
      > Make Scotland's commanders democratically accountable
      > 13
      > Any other person in Scotland or normally resident in
      > Scotland. Most individuals in Scotland are ranked here.
      > Never mind, all of us should get to vote in the elections
      > to the Scottish Parliament.
      > In a free Scotland, all persons should always retain the
      > right to express dissent, angrily or with contempt for the
      > authorities but in a non-violent way.
      > It should be unconstitutional in Scotland for the
      > authorities to impinge upon the freedom of non-violent
      > expression of any person.
      > Anyone OF WHATEVER RANK behaving in such an
      > unconstitutional and treacherous way is picking a fight
      > with all truly patriotic Scots. (Not advisable, as the
      > Scots will fight ferociously to defend their freedoms!)
      > Visit Scottish political forums. Scottish Republican
      > Roll of Honour
      > The fundamental rights of the Scots
      > The Scots will never be slaves
      > The Declaration of Arbroath
      > Never impinge upon the sovereignty of the Scottish people.
      > Why it is wrong to ban any MSP from the
      > Scottish Parliament. We have seen highly undemocratic and
      > unconstitutional bans or exclusions of elected Members of
      > the Scottish Parliament from the Scottish Parliament's
      > premises for periods of up to one-month on one occasion.
      > When these bans are in force, the full and free parliament
      > is no longer convened with the authority to appoint
      > officers of the state.
      > For future reference, some of the normal constitutional
      > ranks as advised here would not apply so long as any MSP
      > remains excluded. Ranks that are subject to possible
      > suspension and consequently would become constitutionally
      > inoperative during periods of exclusion of MSPs, are
      > indicated by a grey RANK number.
      > Advice on acting sovereignty and constitutional ranks.
      > Acting sovereignty means here the authority of the
      > parliament to enact law and to appoint and to maintain
      > officers of parliament and of state whose high rank is
      > recognised here by numbers coloured grey in the above
      > table.
      > Only the full and free parliament can act with the
      > sovereignty of all the people
      > Acting sovereignty can be properly exercised by the full
      > and free parliament only - that is, without any member of
      > the parliament being excluded from the meeting of
      > parliament by a decision of the majority of MSPs.
      > Democrats assert that sovereignty rests with the people
      > because democracy means "government by all the
      > people". Excluding any MSP from parliament is no less
      > than an undemocratic assault on the governing rights of
      > those people who elected that MSP.
      > A meeting in parliament excluding any person duly elected
      > to the parliament - excluded by a decision of the other
      > MSPs - is not a meeting of the full and free parliament.
      > Such an exclusive meeting in parliament cannot therefore
      > act for all the people, nor can it exercise the
      > people's electoral mandate to act with the sovereignty
      > of the people.
      > Undemocratic cliques of MSPs
      > So the constitutional advice here is that Scots are under
      > no particular constitutional obligation to recognise a
      > decision of a meeting of some MSPs excluding any other MSP
      > as a decision of the Scottish Parliament, per se. An
      > undemocratic clique of MSPs should not be mistaken for a
      > democratic parliament.
      > Each elected MSP maintains always their own mandate from
      > their own electorate but no clique of MSPs can outrank any
      > other single MSP - only the full and free parliament can
      > outrank individual MSPs or promote and support MSPs in
      > higher ranking office.
      > How excluding any MSP adjusts the ranks of all
      > MSPsIn terms of the constitutional rank table given here,
      > excluding any MSP from parliament leads to the following
      > interpretation of the advisable constitutional rankings -
      > An exclusion of any MSP from meetings of the parliament,
      > would derogate those grey numbered ranks to the subordinate
      > red numbered rank.
      > That is to say, rank numbers 3 to 9 would be derogated to
      > rank number 10
      > In other words, from the perspective of someone wishing to
      > defend a Scottish democratic constitution,
      > the Presiding Officers would no longer have the authority
      > to preside,
      > the First Minister would no longer have the authority to be
      > first among ministers,
      > nor would any minister have ministerial authority
      > and indeed the whole Scottish Executive, from Permanent
      > Secretary to ordinary civil servants would be in abeyance.
      > Rank numbers 11 and 12 would be derogated to rank number 13
      > In other words, from this Scottish constitutional viewpoint
      > the courts and the police would be Scottish
      > constitutionally equivalent to any other group of Scottish
      > citizens carrying out citizen arrests and detentions,
      > there would be no special authority of police arrest
      > and questions about whether the police arrest citizens or
      > citizens arrest police officers would be purely matters of
      > force majeure.
      > Although I guess that the police and the courts would try
      > to claim legitimacy as they do now under the UK's
      > constitution from hell, or perhaps under another
      > non-Scottish constitution such as that of the European
      > Union.
      > Dangerous instabilityIn summary, one consequence
      > of excluding any MSP from parliament is to undermine the
      > legitimacy and the unity of the Scottish state. While some
      > disunity may be unavoidable in some situations, only a
      > foolish anarchist or an enemy of Scotland would rejoice at
      > this degree of disunity.
      > Exclusions potentially destabilizing
      > Thus exclusions of MSPs are highly undesirable and can lead
      > to destabilizing constitutional contradictions while all
      > MSPs' ranks are levelled (here down to rank number 10).
      > Suppose one excluded MSP decides to order, say, the
      > assassination of the UK head of state and further suppose
      > that then other MSPs decide to countermand that
      > assassination-order. What then as neither the order nor its
      > countermand is clearly constitutionally superior to the
      > other?
      > One could imagine then one faction of Scots trying to
      > assassinate the Queen (they'd get my support as a
      > ferocious republican!) while another faction of Scots is
      > trying to save the Queen (boo, damn royalists!), and both
      > factions could construct a constitutional rationale for
      > their actions!
      > Such violent disunity among Scots is the danger of
      > unconstitutional exclusions of MSPs from parliament.
      > Stabilize by not excluding
      > The easy way out of risky constitutional dilemmas is for
      > the full and free parliament to meet promptly, not
      > excluding any MSP, and then for the newly validated
      > Presiding Officer or First Minister to countermand the now
      > inferior conflicting orders.
      > Thus the lesson for MSPs is that, unless they want to risk
      > such things as the Queen being assassinated by Scottish
      > military patriots carrying out a valid Scottish
      > constitutional order from an MSP of the highest currently
      > recognised rank, DON'T EXCLUDE ANY MSP FROM PARLIAMENT!
      > ---------------------------------
      > Not happy with your email address?
      > Get the one you really want - millions of new email
      > addresses available now at Yahoo!
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.