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Re: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Re: Finding criminals who were transported (And Court

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  • MARY MASON
    I have not replied to this site for some time. With the info that Mark supplied I might be able to trace my ancestor, Daniel Cone. I know that he was a
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 15, 2007
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      I have not replied to this site for some time. With the info that Mark supplied I might be able to trace my ancestor, Daniel Cone. I know that he was a "prisoner" sent on the John and Sara, ca. 1650-52. I thank you for sending valid emails instead of useless stuff.

      Mary

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Dave Fisher
      Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 8:13 AM
      To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Re: Finding criminals who were transported (And Court Records)

      Eleanor,

      Court records might be interesting, separating knavery from
      nobility. Here's a little tidbit regarding my Battle of Dunbar
      ancestor after he had been in America for a while:

      "Wee present Geo. Gray and Saraih his wife for liveing in fornication
      before they came into the bands of Wedlocke. Jury. The Court fines
      the Delinquents three pounds and oficers fees or to receive 10
      stripes apiece. Att a County Court houlden at Wells (Maine) the
      secund day of July 1672 presentments made and given in to the sayd
      Court by the Grand Inquest."
      Pg 239 [4:2:10] York County Court Book Two.

      BTW, in 1672 Sarah was 14 and G.G. about 50. I guess they got over
      it, as they well populated New England with Grays. Looks like they
      were jumping-the-gun a little.

      Dave

      --- In ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Sutherland-Fisher"
      <msf10@...> wrote:
      >
      > Eleanor,
      > I dont know if they are online or not. The Guildhall in London
      houses the
      > court records for the period pre 1775 dealing with the Criminal
      Assizes
      > throughout England, giving details of accused persons, their
      alleged crimes,
      > appointments and reappointments of judges and juries, notes on the
      trials
      > (not transcripts of evidence) and where convicted, sentence and
      then details
      > of transportation including often ship, captain, to whom in america
      they had
      > been sold (i.e. estate owner) and for how much.
      >
      > When I last examined these around 8 years ago, it was the original
      documents
      > and I had to wear gloves to avoid acid from my fingers damaging the
      velum
      > paper on which they were written.
      >
      > I suggest you look at the guildhall website, which you should get
      from
      > Google.
      > Hope this helps
      > Mark
      >
      >
      > >From: Eleanor Hall <eleahall@...>
      > >Reply-To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
      > >To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: RE: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Finding criminals who were
      transported
      > >Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:28:16 -0800 (PST)
      > >
      > >Mark,
      > >
      > >Interesting insights. You mention "court papers in
      > >London of their ancestor's far from noble reason for
      > >transportation." Where are these papers? Are any of
      > >them online, and if so, how can they be accessed?
      > >
      > >Eleanor Hall
      > >
      > >--- Mark Sutherland-Fisher <msf10@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Dave,
      > > > Your search is effectively before most ordinary
      > > > people were recorded so
      > > > unless you stumble across his baptism in one of the
      > > > few parishes with
      > > > legible records pre 1700 or you find him in some
      > > > military muster roll, it is
      > > > highly unlikely you will find any reference to him
      > > > in Scotland.
      > > >
      > > > Earlier there was an email about a couple who
      > > > emigrated in 1685. It was from
      > > > Brenda and this is the reply I tried to send to the
      > > > list then:
      > > >
      > > > Brenda,
      > > >
      > > > I am sorry to say but I think your family folklore
      > > > has been invented by some
      > > > of your ancestors to make their ancestors sound more
      > > > interesting.
      > > >
      > > > Firstly Oliver Cromwell fought the armies of King
      > > > Charles I 40 years before
      > > > they emigrated so if he had been in Cromwell's army
      > > > he would have been a
      > > > very old man in his 60's at the time of emigration
      > > > to America. Secondly, it
      > > > is unlikely that Protestants would have left England
      > > > and move to Scotland.
      > > > Cromwell's England was staunch Protestant like
      > > > Scotland. Given that Cromwell
      > > > slaughtered a Scottish army under Charles II at
      > > > Worcester on 3rd September
      > > > 1651 and Cromwell was hated in Scotland so I cannot
      > > > see supporters of
      > > > Cromwell fleeing to Scotland. Far more likely your
      > > > ancestors were simple
      > > > economic migrants which would explain why they paid
      > > > for their passage. They
      > > > sound Dutch so they may have come to England or
      > > > Scotland when Charles II
      > > > came back from exile in 1660.
      > > >
      > > > Sorry if it spoils a good story.
      > > >
      > > > I know it is hard for those of you in North America
      > > > to understand but
      > > > generally when someone left Scotland or England to
      > > > emigrate or as either a
      > > > common criminal or "political prisoner" being
      > > > transported, the general
      > > > attitude was good riddance and thank goodness that's
      > > > one or more less mouths
      > > > to feed. Most people were too concerned with the
      > > > problems of just surviving
      > > > from day to day in what was a relatively poor
      > > > country (even most aristocrats
      > > > in Scotland were very poor by comparison with their
      > > > English or French
      > > > counterparts) so people leaving or being transported
      > > > was really only of
      > > > interest to their immeidate families.
      > > >
      > > > However on the other side of the pond it was a
      > > > different matter and most of
      > > > the immigrants wanted to record somewhere who they
      > > > were and where they came
      > > > from. However unless as is the case with your
      > > > ancestor, who was recorded as
      > > > a "political prisoner", a Royalist, being
      > > > transported, in my experience the
      > > > overwhelming majority who claim to have been
      > > > transported or exiled for
      > > > supporting this king or that religion were simply
      > > > making it up and were
      > > > either economic migrants or common criminals given
      > > > the chance to be
      > > > transported rather than hung. As I have said to many
      > > > disappointed American
      > > > descendants when confronting them with the court
      > > > papers in London of their
      > > > ancestor's far from noble reason for transportation,
      > > > if you were transported
      > > > as a common criminal and 30 years later by luck and
      > > > hard toil had risen to
      > > > be someone of importance in colonial society, what
      > > > would you tell yuor
      > > > children and grandchildren, that you were a common
      > > > criminal or a heroic
      > > > warrior punished for your political or religious
      > > > beliefs. I know which I
      > > > would choose and after all the last thing they would
      > > > expect is that 350
      > > > years later their distant descendants could either
      > > > fly to Britain in 5 hours
      > > > or do research without even leaving their own
      > > > homes!!
      > > >
      > > > To anyone researching an ancestor who migrated to
      > > > the North America for any
      > > > reason between 1650 and 1775 (when transportation to
      > > > the American colonies
      > > > stopped) my advice is always to exhaust every
      > > > possible source on your side
      > > > of the pond before trying on this side because 99%
      > > > of times, all the likely
      > > > information is in North America not in the UK. Our
      > > > records from that time
      > > > are almost non-existent and at best very patchy and
      > > > generally relate only to
      > > > the very important or the very wicked.
      > > >
      > > > Mark
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >From: "Dave Fisher" <fishrdnc@...>
      > > > >Reply-To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >Subject: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Looking for the
      > > > Scottish origin of George
      > > > >Gray
      > > > >Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:29:52 -0000
      > > > >
      > > > >George Gray was one of 150 Dunbar prisoners
      > > > transported to Boston in
      > > > >1650 in the 'Unity,' and thence transported to the
      > > > lumber plantations
      > > > >around Berwick, ME. His presence there and
      > > > subsequent genealogy is
      > > > >well documented. At one time it was stated on
      > > > Wikipedia that he came
      > > > >from Lanark, but the entry was later removed as
      > > > "Not Notable." I can
      > > > >find no information about him on the
      > > > Lanark/Lanarkshire websites. My
      > > > >guess is that any such information originated in
      > > > American records or
      > > > >writings, probably in the York County, ME area.
      > > > Any info?
      > > > >
      > > > >Dave Fisher
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >__________________________________________________________
      > > > MSN Hotmail is evolving – check out the new Windows
      > > > Live Mail
      > > > http://ideas.live.com
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScottishWarPrisoners/join
      > > > (Yahoo! ID required)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >mailto:ScottishWarPrisoners-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      >
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