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Looking for the Scottish origin of George Gray

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  • Dave Fisher
    George Gray was one of 150 Dunbar prisoners transported to Boston in 1650 in the Unity, and thence transported to the lumber plantations around Berwick, ME.
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 9, 2007
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      George Gray was one of 150 Dunbar prisoners transported to Boston in
      1650 in the 'Unity,' and thence transported to the lumber plantations
      around Berwick, ME. His presence there and subsequent genealogy is
      well documented. At one time it was stated on Wikipedia that he came
      from Lanark, but the entry was later removed as "Not Notable." I can
      find no information about him on the Lanark/Lanarkshire websites. My
      guess is that any such information originated in American records or
      writings, probably in the York County, ME area. Any info?

      Dave Fisher
    • Mark Sutherland-Fisher
      Dave, Your search is effectively before most ordinary people were recorded so unless you stumble across his baptism in one of the few parishes with legible
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 9, 2007
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        Dave,
        Your search is effectively before most ordinary people were recorded so
        unless you stumble across his baptism in one of the few parishes with
        legible records pre 1700 or you find him in some military muster roll, it is
        highly unlikely you will find any reference to him in Scotland.

        Earlier there was an email about a couple who emigrated in 1685. It was from
        Brenda and this is the reply I tried to send to the list then:

        Brenda,

        I am sorry to say but I think your family folklore has been invented by some
        of your ancestors to make their ancestors sound more interesting.

        Firstly Oliver Cromwell fought the armies of King Charles I 40 years before
        they emigrated so if he had been in Cromwell�s army he would have been a
        very old man in his 60�s at the time of emigration to America. Secondly, it
        is unlikely that Protestants would have left England and move to Scotland.
        Cromwell�s England was staunch Protestant like Scotland. Given that Cromwell
        slaughtered a Scottish army under Charles II at Worcester on 3rd September
        1651 and Cromwell was hated in Scotland so I cannot see supporters of
        Cromwell fleeing to Scotland. Far more likely your ancestors were simple
        economic migrants which would explain why they paid for their passage. They
        sound Dutch so they may have come to England or Scotland when Charles II
        came back from exile in 1660.

        Sorry if it spoils a good story.

        I know it is hard for those of you in North America to understand but
        generally when someone left Scotland or England to emigrate or as either a
        common criminal or "political prisoner" being transported, the general
        attitude was good riddance and thank goodness that's one or more less mouths
        to feed. Most people were too concerned with the problems of just surviving
        from day to day in what was a relatively poor country (even most aristocrats
        in Scotland were very poor by comparison with their English or French
        counterparts) so people leaving or being transported was really only of
        interest to their immeidate families.

        However on the other side of the pond it was a different matter and most of
        the immigrants wanted to record somewhere who they were and where they came
        from. However unless as is the case with your ancestor, who was recorded as
        a "political prisoner", a Royalist, being transported, in my experience the
        overwhelming majority who claim to have been transported or exiled for
        supporting this king or that religion were simply making it up and were
        either economic migrants or common criminals given the chance to be
        transported rather than hung. As I have said to many disappointed American
        descendants when confronting them with the court papers in London of their
        ancestor's far from noble reason for transportation, if you were transported
        as a common criminal and 30 years later by luck and hard toil had risen to
        be someone of importance in colonial society, what would you tell yuor
        children and grandchildren, that you were a common criminal or a heroic
        warrior punished for your political or religious beliefs. I know which I
        would choose and after all the last thing they would expect is that 350
        years later their distant descendants could either fly to Britain in 5 hours
        or do research without even leaving their own homes!!

        To anyone researching an ancestor who migrated to the North America for any
        reason between 1650 and 1775 (when transportation to the American colonies
        stopped) my advice is always to exhaust every possible source on your side
        of the pond before trying on this side because 99% of times, all the likely
        information is in North America not in the UK. Our records from that time
        are almost non-existent and at best very patchy and generally relate only to
        the very important or the very wicked.

        Mark




        >From: "Dave Fisher" <fishrdnc@...>
        >Reply-To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
        >To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Looking for the Scottish origin of George
        >Gray
        >Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:29:52 -0000
        >
        >George Gray was one of 150 Dunbar prisoners transported to Boston in
        >1650 in the 'Unity,' and thence transported to the lumber plantations
        >around Berwick, ME. His presence there and subsequent genealogy is
        >well documented. At one time it was stated on Wikipedia that he came
        >from Lanark, but the entry was later removed as "Not Notable." I can
        >find no information about him on the Lanark/Lanarkshire websites. My
        >guess is that any such information originated in American records or
        >writings, probably in the York County, ME area. Any info?
        >
        >Dave Fisher
        >

        _________________________________________________________________
        MSN Hotmail is evolving � check out the new Windows Live Mail
        http://ideas.live.com
      • Brenda Green
        Thank you Mark for the interesting information. More than likely you are right about my ancestor...I didn t actually believe the tales but I put it out there
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 9, 2007
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          Thank you Mark for the interesting information. More than likely you are right about my ancestor...I didn't actually believe the tales but I put it out there for anyone that has information to contact me. Funny how stories originate huh?
          Well, it has been researched and the manifest found but all that was listed was the fact that they paid their passage and was on the boat in Scotland when it sailed, and lived through the hard voyage to America. But, I am trying to find out any particulars about them, such as: where did they come from, last known home of record, why did they immigrate, how were they listed i.e. prisoners, economic or otherwise.
          Here on this side, we don't have information about these things...just what the manifest tells us or what is transcribed from such documents.
          Again, I just loved the information about our 'family story', it was interesting and most enlightening!
          Thanks,
          Bren

          Mark Sutherland-Fisher <msf10@...> wrote: Dave,
          Your search is effectively before most ordinary people were recorded so
          unless you stumble across his baptism in one of the few parishes with
          legible records pre 1700 or you find him in some military muster roll, it is
          highly unlikely you will find any reference to him in Scotland.

          Earlier there was an email about a couple who emigrated in 1685. It was from
          Brenda and this is the reply I tried to send to the list then:

          Brenda,

          I am sorry to say but I think your family folklore has been invented by some
          of your ancestors to make their ancestors sound more interesting.

          Firstly Oliver Cromwell fought the armies of King Charles I 40 years before
          they emigrated so if he had been in Cromwell’s army he would have been a
          very old man in his 60’s at the time of emigration to America. Secondly, it
          is unlikely that Protestants would have left England and move to Scotland.
          Cromwell’s England was staunch Protestant like Scotland. Given that Cromwell
          slaughtered a Scottish army under Charles II at Worcester on 3rd September
          1651 and Cromwell was hated in Scotland so I cannot see supporters of
          Cromwell fleeing to Scotland. Far more likely your ancestors were simple
          economic migrants which would explain why they paid for their passage. They
          sound Dutch so they may have come to England or Scotland when Charles II
          came back from exile in 1660.

          Sorry if it spoils a good story.

          I know it is hard for those of you in North America to understand but
          generally when someone left Scotland or England to emigrate or as either a
          common criminal or "political prisoner" being transported, the general
          attitude was good riddance and thank goodness that's one or more less mouths
          to feed. Most people were too concerned with the problems of just surviving
          from day to day in what was a relatively poor country (even most aristocrats
          in Scotland were very poor by comparison with their English or French
          counterparts) so people leaving or being transported was really only of
          interest to their immeidate families.

          However on the other side of the pond it was a different matter and most of
          the immigrants wanted to record somewhere who they were and where they came
          from. However unless as is the case with your ancestor, who was recorded as
          a "political prisoner", a Royalist, being transported, in my experience the
          overwhelming majority who claim to have been transported or exiled for
          supporting this king or that religion were simply making it up and were
          either economic migrants or common criminals given the chance to be
          transported rather than hung. As I have said to many disappointed American
          descendants when confronting them with the court papers in London of their
          ancestor's far from noble reason for transportation, if you were transported
          as a common criminal and 30 years later by luck and hard toil had risen to
          be someone of importance in colonial society, what would you tell yuor
          children and grandchildren, that you were a common criminal or a heroic
          warrior punished for your political or religious beliefs. I know which I
          would choose and after all the last thing they would expect is that 350
          years later their distant descendants could either fly to Britain in 5 hours
          or do research without even leaving their own homes!!

          To anyone researching an ancestor who migrated to the North America for any
          reason between 1650 and 1775 (when transportation to the American colonies
          stopped) my advice is always to exhaust every possible source on your side
          of the pond before trying on this side because 99% of times, all the likely
          information is in North America not in the UK. Our records from that time
          are almost non-existent and at best very patchy and generally relate only to
          the very important or the very wicked.

          Mark




          >From: "Dave Fisher"
          >Reply-To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
          >To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Looking for the Scottish origin of George
          >Gray
          >Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:29:52 -0000
          >
          >George Gray was one of 150 Dunbar prisoners transported to Boston in
          >1650 in the 'Unity,' and thence transported to the lumber plantations
          >around Berwick, ME. His presence there and subsequent genealogy is
          >well documented. At one time it was stated on Wikipedia that he came
          >from Lanark, but the entry was later removed as "Not Notable." I can
          >find no information about him on the Lanark/Lanarkshire websites. My
          >guess is that any such information originated in American records or
          >writings, probably in the York County, ME area. Any info?
          >
          >Dave Fisher
          >

          _________________________________________________________________
          MSN Hotmail is evolving – check out the new Windows Live Mail
          http://ideas.live.com




          Yahoo! Groups Links






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Brenda
          Thanks Dave for looking, I really appreciate it! Bren
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 9, 2007
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            Thanks Dave for looking, I really appreciate it!
            Bren



            --- In ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Fisher"
            <fishrdnc@...> wrote:
            >
            > George Gray was one of 150 Dunbar prisoners transported to Boston in
            > 1650 in the 'Unity,' and thence transported to the lumber plantations
            > around Berwick, ME. His presence there and subsequent genealogy is
            > well documented. At one time it was stated on Wikipedia that he came
            > from Lanark, but the entry was later removed as "Not Notable." I can
            > find no information about him on the Lanark/Lanarkshire websites. My
            > guess is that any such information originated in American records or
            > writings, probably in the York County, ME area. Any info?
            >
            > Dave Fisher
            >
          • Eleanor Hall
            Mark, Interesting insights. You mention court papers in London of their ancestor s far from noble reason for transportation. Where are these papers? Are any
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 14, 2007
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              Mark,

              Interesting insights. You mention "court papers in
              London of their ancestor's far from noble reason for
              transportation." Where are these papers? Are any of
              them online, and if so, how can they be accessed?

              Eleanor Hall

              --- Mark Sutherland-Fisher <msf10@...> wrote:

              > Dave,
              > Your search is effectively before most ordinary
              > people were recorded so
              > unless you stumble across his baptism in one of the
              > few parishes with
              > legible records pre 1700 or you find him in some
              > military muster roll, it is
              > highly unlikely you will find any reference to him
              > in Scotland.
              >
              > Earlier there was an email about a couple who
              > emigrated in 1685. It was from
              > Brenda and this is the reply I tried to send to the
              > list then:
              >
              > Brenda,
              >
              > I am sorry to say but I think your family folklore
              > has been invented by some
              > of your ancestors to make their ancestors sound more
              > interesting.
              >
              > Firstly Oliver Cromwell fought the armies of King
              > Charles I 40 years before
              > they emigrated so if he had been in Cromwell’s army
              > he would have been a
              > very old man in his 60’s at the time of emigration
              > to America. Secondly, it
              > is unlikely that Protestants would have left England
              > and move to Scotland.
              > Cromwell’s England was staunch Protestant like
              > Scotland. Given that Cromwell
              > slaughtered a Scottish army under Charles II at
              > Worcester on 3rd September
              > 1651 and Cromwell was hated in Scotland so I cannot
              > see supporters of
              > Cromwell fleeing to Scotland. Far more likely your
              > ancestors were simple
              > economic migrants which would explain why they paid
              > for their passage. They
              > sound Dutch so they may have come to England or
              > Scotland when Charles II
              > came back from exile in 1660.
              >
              > Sorry if it spoils a good story.
              >
              > I know it is hard for those of you in North America
              > to understand but
              > generally when someone left Scotland or England to
              > emigrate or as either a
              > common criminal or "political prisoner" being
              > transported, the general
              > attitude was good riddance and thank goodness that's
              > one or more less mouths
              > to feed. Most people were too concerned with the
              > problems of just surviving
              > from day to day in what was a relatively poor
              > country (even most aristocrats
              > in Scotland were very poor by comparison with their
              > English or French
              > counterparts) so people leaving or being transported
              > was really only of
              > interest to their immeidate families.
              >
              > However on the other side of the pond it was a
              > different matter and most of
              > the immigrants wanted to record somewhere who they
              > were and where they came
              > from. However unless as is the case with your
              > ancestor, who was recorded as
              > a "political prisoner", a Royalist, being
              > transported, in my experience the
              > overwhelming majority who claim to have been
              > transported or exiled for
              > supporting this king or that religion were simply
              > making it up and were
              > either economic migrants or common criminals given
              > the chance to be
              > transported rather than hung. As I have said to many
              > disappointed American
              > descendants when confronting them with the court
              > papers in London of their
              > ancestor's far from noble reason for transportation,
              > if you were transported
              > as a common criminal and 30 years later by luck and
              > hard toil had risen to
              > be someone of importance in colonial society, what
              > would you tell yuor
              > children and grandchildren, that you were a common
              > criminal or a heroic
              > warrior punished for your political or religious
              > beliefs. I know which I
              > would choose and after all the last thing they would
              > expect is that 350
              > years later their distant descendants could either
              > fly to Britain in 5 hours
              > or do research without even leaving their own
              > homes!!
              >
              > To anyone researching an ancestor who migrated to
              > the North America for any
              > reason between 1650 and 1775 (when transportation to
              > the American colonies
              > stopped) my advice is always to exhaust every
              > possible source on your side
              > of the pond before trying on this side because 99%
              > of times, all the likely
              > information is in North America not in the UK. Our
              > records from that time
              > are almost non-existent and at best very patchy and
              > generally relate only to
              > the very important or the very wicked.
              >
              > Mark
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > >From: "Dave Fisher" <fishrdnc@...>
              > >Reply-To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
              > >To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
              > >Subject: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Looking for the
              > Scottish origin of George
              > >Gray
              > >Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:29:52 -0000
              > >
              > >George Gray was one of 150 Dunbar prisoners
              > transported to Boston in
              > >1650 in the 'Unity,' and thence transported to the
              > lumber plantations
              > >around Berwick, ME. His presence there and
              > subsequent genealogy is
              > >well documented. At one time it was stated on
              > Wikipedia that he came
              > >from Lanark, but the entry was later removed as
              > "Not Notable." I can
              > >find no information about him on the
              > Lanark/Lanarkshire websites. My
              > >guess is that any such information originated in
              > American records or
              > >writings, probably in the York County, ME area.
              > Any info?
              > >
              > >Dave Fisher
              > >
              >
              >
              _________________________________________________________________
              > MSN Hotmail is evolving – check out the new Windows
              > Live Mail
              > http://ideas.live.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScottishWarPrisoners/join
              > (Yahoo! ID required)
              >
              >
              >
              mailto:ScottishWarPrisoners-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
            • Mark Sutherland-Fisher
              Eleanor, I dont know if they are online or not. The Guildhall in London houses the court records for the period pre 1775 dealing with the Criminal Assizes
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 15, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Eleanor,
                I dont know if they are online or not. The Guildhall in London houses the
                court records for the period pre 1775 dealing with the Criminal Assizes
                throughout England, giving details of accused persons, their alleged crimes,
                appointments and reappointments of judges and juries, notes on the trials
                (not transcripts of evidence) and where convicted, sentence and then details
                of transportation including often ship, captain, to whom in america they had
                been sold (i.e. estate owner) and for how much.

                When I last examined these around 8 years ago, it was the original documents
                and I had to wear gloves to avoid acid from my fingers damaging the velum
                paper on which they were written.

                I suggest you look at the guildhall website, which you should get from
                Google.
                Hope this helps
                Mark


                >From: Eleanor Hall <eleahall@...>
                >Reply-To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
                >To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: RE: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Finding criminals who were transported
                >Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:28:16 -0800 (PST)
                >
                >Mark,
                >
                >Interesting insights. You mention "court papers in
                >London of their ancestor's far from noble reason for
                >transportation." Where are these papers? Are any of
                >them online, and if so, how can they be accessed?
                >
                >Eleanor Hall
                >
                >--- Mark Sutherland-Fisher <msf10@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Dave,
                > > Your search is effectively before most ordinary
                > > people were recorded so
                > > unless you stumble across his baptism in one of the
                > > few parishes with
                > > legible records pre 1700 or you find him in some
                > > military muster roll, it is
                > > highly unlikely you will find any reference to him
                > > in Scotland.
                > >
                > > Earlier there was an email about a couple who
                > > emigrated in 1685. It was from
                > > Brenda and this is the reply I tried to send to the
                > > list then:
                > >
                > > Brenda,
                > >
                > > I am sorry to say but I think your family folklore
                > > has been invented by some
                > > of your ancestors to make their ancestors sound more
                > > interesting.
                > >
                > > Firstly Oliver Cromwell fought the armies of King
                > > Charles I 40 years before
                > > they emigrated so if he had been in Cromwell�s army
                > > he would have been a
                > > very old man in his 60�s at the time of emigration
                > > to America. Secondly, it
                > > is unlikely that Protestants would have left England
                > > and move to Scotland.
                > > Cromwell�s England was staunch Protestant like
                > > Scotland. Given that Cromwell
                > > slaughtered a Scottish army under Charles II at
                > > Worcester on 3rd September
                > > 1651 and Cromwell was hated in Scotland so I cannot
                > > see supporters of
                > > Cromwell fleeing to Scotland. Far more likely your
                > > ancestors were simple
                > > economic migrants which would explain why they paid
                > > for their passage. They
                > > sound Dutch so they may have come to England or
                > > Scotland when Charles II
                > > came back from exile in 1660.
                > >
                > > Sorry if it spoils a good story.
                > >
                > > I know it is hard for those of you in North America
                > > to understand but
                > > generally when someone left Scotland or England to
                > > emigrate or as either a
                > > common criminal or "political prisoner" being
                > > transported, the general
                > > attitude was good riddance and thank goodness that's
                > > one or more less mouths
                > > to feed. Most people were too concerned with the
                > > problems of just surviving
                > > from day to day in what was a relatively poor
                > > country (even most aristocrats
                > > in Scotland were very poor by comparison with their
                > > English or French
                > > counterparts) so people leaving or being transported
                > > was really only of
                > > interest to their immeidate families.
                > >
                > > However on the other side of the pond it was a
                > > different matter and most of
                > > the immigrants wanted to record somewhere who they
                > > were and where they came
                > > from. However unless as is the case with your
                > > ancestor, who was recorded as
                > > a "political prisoner", a Royalist, being
                > > transported, in my experience the
                > > overwhelming majority who claim to have been
                > > transported or exiled for
                > > supporting this king or that religion were simply
                > > making it up and were
                > > either economic migrants or common criminals given
                > > the chance to be
                > > transported rather than hung. As I have said to many
                > > disappointed American
                > > descendants when confronting them with the court
                > > papers in London of their
                > > ancestor's far from noble reason for transportation,
                > > if you were transported
                > > as a common criminal and 30 years later by luck and
                > > hard toil had risen to
                > > be someone of importance in colonial society, what
                > > would you tell yuor
                > > children and grandchildren, that you were a common
                > > criminal or a heroic
                > > warrior punished for your political or religious
                > > beliefs. I know which I
                > > would choose and after all the last thing they would
                > > expect is that 350
                > > years later their distant descendants could either
                > > fly to Britain in 5 hours
                > > or do research without even leaving their own
                > > homes!!
                > >
                > > To anyone researching an ancestor who migrated to
                > > the North America for any
                > > reason between 1650 and 1775 (when transportation to
                > > the American colonies
                > > stopped) my advice is always to exhaust every
                > > possible source on your side
                > > of the pond before trying on this side because 99%
                > > of times, all the likely
                > > information is in North America not in the UK. Our
                > > records from that time
                > > are almost non-existent and at best very patchy and
                > > generally relate only to
                > > the very important or the very wicked.
                > >
                > > Mark
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > >From: "Dave Fisher" <fishrdnc@...>
                > > >Reply-To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
                > > >To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
                > > >Subject: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Looking for the
                > > Scottish origin of George
                > > >Gray
                > > >Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:29:52 -0000
                > > >
                > > >George Gray was one of 150 Dunbar prisoners
                > > transported to Boston in
                > > >1650 in the 'Unity,' and thence transported to the
                > > lumber plantations
                > > >around Berwick, ME. His presence there and
                > > subsequent genealogy is
                > > >well documented. At one time it was stated on
                > > Wikipedia that he came
                > > >from Lanark, but the entry was later removed as
                > > "Not Notable." I can
                > > >find no information about him on the
                > > Lanark/Lanarkshire websites. My
                > > >guess is that any such information originated in
                > > American records or
                > > >writings, probably in the York County, ME area.
                > > Any info?
                > > >
                > > >Dave Fisher
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >_________________________________________________________________
                > > MSN Hotmail is evolving � check out the new Windows
                > > Live Mail
                > > http://ideas.live.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScottishWarPrisoners/join
                > > (Yahoo! ID required)
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >mailto:ScottishWarPrisoners-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > >
                > >

                _________________________________________________________________
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              • Dave Fisher
                Eleanor, Court records might be interesting, separating knavery from nobility. Here s a little tidbit regarding my Battle of Dunbar ancestor after he had been
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 15, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Eleanor,

                  Court records might be interesting, separating knavery from
                  nobility. Here's a little tidbit regarding my Battle of Dunbar
                  ancestor after he had been in America for a while:

                  "Wee present Geo. Gray and Saraih his wife for liveing in fornication
                  before they came into the bands of Wedlocke. Jury. The Court fines
                  the Delinquents three pounds and oficers fees or to receive 10
                  stripes apiece. Att a County Court houlden at Wells (Maine) the
                  secund day of July 1672 presentments made and given in to the sayd
                  Court by the Grand Inquest."
                  Pg 239 [4:2:10] York County Court Book Two.

                  BTW, in 1672 Sarah was 14 and G.G. about 50. I guess they got over
                  it, as they well populated New England with Grays. Looks like they
                  were jumping-the-gun a little.

                  Dave

                  --- In ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Sutherland-Fisher"
                  <msf10@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Eleanor,
                  > I dont know if they are online or not. The Guildhall in London
                  houses the
                  > court records for the period pre 1775 dealing with the Criminal
                  Assizes
                  > throughout England, giving details of accused persons, their
                  alleged crimes,
                  > appointments and reappointments of judges and juries, notes on the
                  trials
                  > (not transcripts of evidence) and where convicted, sentence and
                  then details
                  > of transportation including often ship, captain, to whom in america
                  they had
                  > been sold (i.e. estate owner) and for how much.
                  >
                  > When I last examined these around 8 years ago, it was the original
                  documents
                  > and I had to wear gloves to avoid acid from my fingers damaging the
                  velum
                  > paper on which they were written.
                  >
                  > I suggest you look at the guildhall website, which you should get
                  from
                  > Google.
                  > Hope this helps
                  > Mark
                  >
                  >
                  > >From: Eleanor Hall <eleahall@...>
                  > >Reply-To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
                  > >To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Subject: RE: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Finding criminals who were
                  transported
                  > >Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:28:16 -0800 (PST)
                  > >
                  > >Mark,
                  > >
                  > >Interesting insights. You mention "court papers in
                  > >London of their ancestor's far from noble reason for
                  > >transportation." Where are these papers? Are any of
                  > >them online, and if so, how can they be accessed?
                  > >
                  > >Eleanor Hall
                  > >
                  > >--- Mark Sutherland-Fisher <msf10@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Dave,
                  > > > Your search is effectively before most ordinary
                  > > > people were recorded so
                  > > > unless you stumble across his baptism in one of the
                  > > > few parishes with
                  > > > legible records pre 1700 or you find him in some
                  > > > military muster roll, it is
                  > > > highly unlikely you will find any reference to him
                  > > > in Scotland.
                  > > >
                  > > > Earlier there was an email about a couple who
                  > > > emigrated in 1685. It was from
                  > > > Brenda and this is the reply I tried to send to the
                  > > > list then:
                  > > >
                  > > > Brenda,
                  > > >
                  > > > I am sorry to say but I think your family folklore
                  > > > has been invented by some
                  > > > of your ancestors to make their ancestors sound more
                  > > > interesting.
                  > > >
                  > > > Firstly Oliver Cromwell fought the armies of King
                  > > > Charles I 40 years before
                  > > > they emigrated so if he had been in Cromwell's army
                  > > > he would have been a
                  > > > very old man in his 60's at the time of emigration
                  > > > to America. Secondly, it
                  > > > is unlikely that Protestants would have left England
                  > > > and move to Scotland.
                  > > > Cromwell's England was staunch Protestant like
                  > > > Scotland. Given that Cromwell
                  > > > slaughtered a Scottish army under Charles II at
                  > > > Worcester on 3rd September
                  > > > 1651 and Cromwell was hated in Scotland so I cannot
                  > > > see supporters of
                  > > > Cromwell fleeing to Scotland. Far more likely your
                  > > > ancestors were simple
                  > > > economic migrants which would explain why they paid
                  > > > for their passage. They
                  > > > sound Dutch so they may have come to England or
                  > > > Scotland when Charles II
                  > > > came back from exile in 1660.
                  > > >
                  > > > Sorry if it spoils a good story.
                  > > >
                  > > > I know it is hard for those of you in North America
                  > > > to understand but
                  > > > generally when someone left Scotland or England to
                  > > > emigrate or as either a
                  > > > common criminal or "political prisoner" being
                  > > > transported, the general
                  > > > attitude was good riddance and thank goodness that's
                  > > > one or more less mouths
                  > > > to feed. Most people were too concerned with the
                  > > > problems of just surviving
                  > > > from day to day in what was a relatively poor
                  > > > country (even most aristocrats
                  > > > in Scotland were very poor by comparison with their
                  > > > English or French
                  > > > counterparts) so people leaving or being transported
                  > > > was really only of
                  > > > interest to their immeidate families.
                  > > >
                  > > > However on the other side of the pond it was a
                  > > > different matter and most of
                  > > > the immigrants wanted to record somewhere who they
                  > > > were and where they came
                  > > > from. However unless as is the case with your
                  > > > ancestor, who was recorded as
                  > > > a "political prisoner", a Royalist, being
                  > > > transported, in my experience the
                  > > > overwhelming majority who claim to have been
                  > > > transported or exiled for
                  > > > supporting this king or that religion were simply
                  > > > making it up and were
                  > > > either economic migrants or common criminals given
                  > > > the chance to be
                  > > > transported rather than hung. As I have said to many
                  > > > disappointed American
                  > > > descendants when confronting them with the court
                  > > > papers in London of their
                  > > > ancestor's far from noble reason for transportation,
                  > > > if you were transported
                  > > > as a common criminal and 30 years later by luck and
                  > > > hard toil had risen to
                  > > > be someone of importance in colonial society, what
                  > > > would you tell yuor
                  > > > children and grandchildren, that you were a common
                  > > > criminal or a heroic
                  > > > warrior punished for your political or religious
                  > > > beliefs. I know which I
                  > > > would choose and after all the last thing they would
                  > > > expect is that 350
                  > > > years later their distant descendants could either
                  > > > fly to Britain in 5 hours
                  > > > or do research without even leaving their own
                  > > > homes!!
                  > > >
                  > > > To anyone researching an ancestor who migrated to
                  > > > the North America for any
                  > > > reason between 1650 and 1775 (when transportation to
                  > > > the American colonies
                  > > > stopped) my advice is always to exhaust every
                  > > > possible source on your side
                  > > > of the pond before trying on this side because 99%
                  > > > of times, all the likely
                  > > > information is in North America not in the UK. Our
                  > > > records from that time
                  > > > are almost non-existent and at best very patchy and
                  > > > generally relate only to
                  > > > the very important or the very wicked.
                  > > >
                  > > > Mark
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > >From: "Dave Fisher" <fishrdnc@...>
                  > > > >Reply-To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > >To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > >Subject: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Looking for the
                  > > > Scottish origin of George
                  > > > >Gray
                  > > > >Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:29:52 -0000
                  > > > >
                  > > > >George Gray was one of 150 Dunbar prisoners
                  > > > transported to Boston in
                  > > > >1650 in the 'Unity,' and thence transported to the
                  > > > lumber plantations
                  > > > >around Berwick, ME. His presence there and
                  > > > subsequent genealogy is
                  > > > >well documented. At one time it was stated on
                  > > > Wikipedia that he came
                  > > > >from Lanark, but the entry was later removed as
                  > > > "Not Notable." I can
                  > > > >find no information about him on the
                  > > > Lanark/Lanarkshire websites. My
                  > > > >guess is that any such information originated in
                  > > > American records or
                  > > > >writings, probably in the York County, ME area.
                  > > > Any info?
                  > > > >
                  > > > >Dave Fisher
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >_________________________________________________________________
                  > > > MSN Hotmail is evolving – check out the new Windows
                  > > > Live Mail
                  > > > http://ideas.live.com
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScottishWarPrisoners/join
                  > > > (Yahoo! ID required)
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >mailto:ScottishWarPrisoners-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > Fixing up the home? Live Search can help
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                • Eleanor Hall
                  Dave, I heard or read somewhere that sex before marriage was not uncommon in Colonial days. Eleanor Hall ... === message truncated ===
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 15, 2007
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                    Dave,

                    I heard or read somewhere that sex before marriage was
                    not uncommon in Colonial days.

                    Eleanor Hall



                    --- Dave Fisher <fishrdnc@...> wrote:

                    > Eleanor,
                    >
                    > Court records might be interesting, separating
                    > knavery from
                    > nobility. Here's a little tidbit regarding my
                    > Battle of Dunbar
                    > ancestor after he had been in America for a while:
                    >
                    > "Wee present Geo. Gray and Saraih his wife for
                    > liveing in fornication
                    > before they came into the bands of Wedlocke. Jury.
                    > The Court fines
                    > the Delinquents three pounds and oficers fees or to
                    > receive 10
                    > stripes apiece. Att a County Court houlden at Wells
                    > (Maine) the
                    > secund day of July 1672 presentments made and given
                    > in to the sayd
                    > Court by the Grand Inquest."
                    > Pg 239 [4:2:10] York County Court Book Two.
                    >
                    > BTW, in 1672 Sarah was 14 and G.G. about 50. I
                    > guess they got over
                    > it, as they well populated New England with Grays.
                    > Looks like they
                    > were jumping-the-gun a little.
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    > --- In ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com, "Mark
                    > Sutherland-Fisher"
                    > <msf10@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Eleanor,
                    > > I dont know if they are online or not. The
                    > Guildhall in London
                    > houses the
                    > > court records for the period pre 1775 dealing with
                    > the Criminal
                    > Assizes
                    > > throughout England, giving details of accused
                    > persons, their
                    > alleged crimes,
                    > > appointments and reappointments of judges and
                    > juries, notes on the
                    > trials
                    > > (not transcripts of evidence) and where convicted,
                    > sentence and
                    > then details
                    > > of transportation including often ship, captain,
                    > to whom in america
                    > they had
                    > > been sold (i.e. estate owner) and for how much.
                    > >
                    > > When I last examined these around 8 years ago, it
                    > was the original
                    > documents
                    > > and I had to wear gloves to avoid acid from my
                    > fingers damaging the
                    > velum
                    > > paper on which they were written.
                    > >
                    > > I suggest you look at the guildhall website, which
                    > you should get
                    > from
                    > > Google.
                    > > Hope this helps
                    > > Mark
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > >From: Eleanor Hall <eleahall@...>
                    > > >Reply-To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >To: ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >Subject: RE: [ScottishWarPrisoners] Finding
                    > criminals who were
                    > transported
                    > > >Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:28:16 -0800 (PST)
                    > > >
                    > > >Mark,
                    > > >
                    > > >Interesting insights. You mention "court papers
                    > in
                    > > >London of their ancestor's far from noble reason
                    > for
                    > > >transportation." Where are these papers? Are any
                    > of
                    > > >them online, and if so, how can they be accessed?
                    > > >
                    > > >Eleanor Hall
                    > > >
                    > > >--- Mark Sutherland-Fisher <msf10@...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > Dave,
                    > > > > Your search is effectively before most
                    > ordinary
                    > > > > people were recorded so
                    > > > > unless you stumble across his baptism in one
                    > of the
                    > > > > few parishes with
                    > > > > legible records pre 1700 or you find him in
                    > some
                    > > > > military muster roll, it is
                    > > > > highly unlikely you will find any reference to
                    > him
                    > > > > in Scotland.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Earlier there was an email about a couple who
                    > > > > emigrated in 1685. It was from
                    > > > > Brenda and this is the reply I tried to send
                    > to the
                    > > > > list then:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Brenda,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I am sorry to say but I think your family
                    > folklore
                    > > > > has been invented by some
                    > > > > of your ancestors to make their ancestors
                    > sound more
                    > > > > interesting.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Firstly Oliver Cromwell fought the armies of
                    > King
                    > > > > Charles I 40 years before
                    > > > > they emigrated so if he had been in Cromwell's
                    > army
                    > > > > he would have been a
                    > > > > very old man in his 60's at the time of
                    > emigration
                    > > > > to America. Secondly, it
                    > > > > is unlikely that Protestants would have left
                    > England
                    > > > > and move to Scotland.
                    > > > > Cromwell's England was staunch Protestant like
                    > > > > Scotland. Given that Cromwell
                    > > > > slaughtered a Scottish army under Charles II
                    > at
                    > > > > Worcester on 3rd September
                    > > > > 1651 and Cromwell was hated in Scotland so I
                    > cannot
                    > > > > see supporters of
                    > > > > Cromwell fleeing to Scotland. Far more likely
                    > your
                    > > > > ancestors were simple
                    > > > > economic migrants which would explain why they
                    > paid
                    > > > > for their passage. They
                    > > > > sound Dutch so they may have come to England
                    > or
                    > > > > Scotland when Charles II
                    > > > > came back from exile in 1660.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Sorry if it spoils a good story.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I know it is hard for those of you in North
                    > America
                    > > > > to understand but
                    > > > > generally when someone left Scotland or
                    > England to
                    > > > > emigrate or as either a
                    > > > > common criminal or "political prisoner" being
                    > > > > transported, the general
                    > > > > attitude was good riddance and thank goodness
                    > that's
                    > > > > one or more less mouths
                    > > > > to feed. Most people were too concerned with
                    > the
                    > > > > problems of just surviving
                    > > > > from day to day in what was a relatively poor
                    > > > > country (even most aristocrats
                    > > > > in Scotland were very poor by comparison with
                    > their
                    > > > > English or French
                    > > > > counterparts) so people leaving or being
                    > transported
                    > > > > was really only of
                    > > > > interest to their immeidate families.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > However on the other side of the pond it was a
                    > > > > different matter and most of
                    > > > > the immigrants wanted to record somewhere who
                    > they
                    > > > > were and where they came
                    > > > > from. However unless as is the case with your
                    > > > > ancestor, who was recorded as
                    > > > > a "political prisoner", a Royalist, being
                    > > > > transported, in my experience the
                    > > > > overwhelming majority who claim to have been
                    > > > > transported or exiled for
                    > > > > supporting this king or that religion were
                    > simply
                    > > > > making it up and were
                    > > > > either economic migrants or common criminals
                    > given
                    > > > > the chance to be
                    > > > > transported rather than hung. As I have said
                    > to many
                    > > > > disappointed American
                    > > > > descendants when confronting them with the
                    > court
                    > > > > papers in London of their
                    >
                    === message truncated ===
                  • Rom
                    Common or no don t mean tweren t illegal. Or summat. ... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If you aren t someone s villain,
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 15, 2007
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                      Common or no don't mean tweren't illegal. Or summat.


                      > I heard or read somewhere that sex before marriage
                      > was
                      > not uncommon in Colonial days.
                      >
                      > Eleanor Hall


                      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                      "If you aren't someone's villain, you aren't defined well enough." - Tom
                      "I'm beginning to see why the others fear you." - Carolyn
                      "Oh, Bob? Do we have any openings this man might fit?" - Madeline Kahn
                      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



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                    • Mark Sutherland-Fisher
                      Eleanor, Sex before marriage was the norm in Scotland and probably England as well until Queen Victoria and her German morals kicked in! At a time when divorce
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 16, 2007
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                        Eleanor,
                        Sex before marriage was the norm in Scotland and probably England as well
                        until Queen Victoria and her German morals kicked in!

                        At a time when divorce was only for the rich and powerful, the only reason a
                        couple married was to have children and the only way they would know if they
                        could ahve children togther was to try. The normal practice in Scotland was
                        for a courting couple to have premarital sex and then as soon as the girl
                        discovered she was pregnant, they married. If they got the timing wrong,
                        they just announced that they had entered into an irregular marriage and if
                        they could afford it, paid the fee to the Kirk and then had their irregular
                        marriage recognised by the Kirk.

                        The majority of people pre Victorian times entered into irregular marriages
                        and as both marriages and baptisms had to be paid for to be recorded, the
                        great majority of ordinary people didnt register their marriages and
                        childrens births, which is why often people cant trace ancestors entries
                        inthe OPR in years where there are not gaps in the records.

                        Remember entire generations of men were regularly culled on the battlefield
                        and disproportionately large numbers of women died either in or as a
                        consequence of childbirth. A widower with young children would almost
                        immediately remarry, often to his wife's younger sister or cousin to provide
                        a new mother for his children and would then probably saddle the poor woman
                        with another handful of her own and if she died, he would get another. A man
                        was often having children with several wives over a 30 or 40 year period and
                        frequently was still fathering children when his older children were
                        themselves already having children.

                        The converse was also true. Often a widow left with young children perhaps
                        in her 20's or even as late as early 40's would acquire a new husband, often
                        a man young enough to be her son, who would have his eye on her farm or
                        property which would become his on marriage and then proceed to have even 2
                        or 3 children by her. I have seen cases of women previously widowed with
                        several children in their 40's having more children by their husbands in
                        their 20s and unsurprisingly such women rarely lived to be old and a few
                        years later the younger husband would be taking another wife after her
                        premature death, often as a consequence of a very late pregnancy or
                        childbirth. Within my own family I have numerous cases of multiple marriages
                        in both sexes where there wasn't a single divorce. that is why it is
                        essential you carefully analyse who the witnesses to any child's birth were.
                        almost always they were specially chosen by the father/parents.
                        Mark

                        _________________________________________________________________
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                      • Dave Fisher
                        My guess is that the Massachusetts Bay Colony and the York County Court (then part of the MBC) took a dimmer view of what the Scottish ex-prisoners took as a
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jan 16, 2007
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                          My guess is that the Massachusetts Bay Colony and the York County
                          Court (then part of the MBC) took a dimmer view of what the Scottish
                          ex-prisoners took as a norm. The court proceeding fell about halfway
                          between the establishment of the Puritan colony and the later Salem
                          witch trials.

                          Dave

                          --- In ScottishWarPrisoners@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Sutherland-Fisher"
                          <msf10@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Eleanor,
                          > Sex before marriage was the norm in Scotland and probably England
                          as well
                          > until Queen Victoria and her German morals kicked in!
                          >
                          > At a time when divorce was only for the rich and powerful, the only
                          reason a
                          > couple married was to have children and the only way they would
                          know if they
                          > could ahve children togther was to try. The normal practice in
                          Scotland was
                          > for a courting couple to have premarital sex and then as soon as
                          the girl
                          > discovered she was pregnant, they married. If they got the timing
                          wrong,
                          > they just announced that they had entered into an irregular
                          marriage and if
                          > they could afford it, paid the fee to the Kirk and then had their
                          irregular
                          > marriage recognised by the Kirk.
                          >
                          > The majority of people pre Victorian times entered into irregular
                          marriages
                          > and as both marriages and baptisms had to be paid for to be
                          recorded, the
                          > great majority of ordinary people didnt register their marriages
                          and
                          > childrens births, which is why often people cant trace ancestors
                          entries
                          > inthe OPR in years where there are not gaps in the records.
                          >
                          > Remember entire generations of men were regularly culled on the
                          battlefield
                          > and disproportionately large numbers of women died either in or as
                          a
                          > consequence of childbirth. A widower with young children would
                          almost
                          > immediately remarry, often to his wife's younger sister or cousin
                          to provide
                          > a new mother for his children and would then probably saddle the
                          poor woman
                          > with another handful of her own and if she died, he would get
                          another. A man
                          > was often having children with several wives over a 30 or 40 year
                          period and
                          > frequently was still fathering children when his older children
                          were
                          > themselves already having children.
                          >
                          > The converse was also true. Often a widow left with young children
                          perhaps
                          > in her 20's or even as late as early 40's would acquire a new
                          husband, often
                          > a man young enough to be her son, who would have his eye on her
                          farm or
                          > property which would become his on marriage and then proceed to
                          have even 2
                          > or 3 children by her. I have seen cases of women previously widowed
                          with
                          > several children in their 40's having more children by their
                          husbands in
                          > their 20s and unsurprisingly such women rarely lived to be old and
                          a few
                          > years later the younger husband would be taking another wife after
                          her
                          > premature death, often as a consequence of a very late pregnancy or
                          > childbirth. Within my own family I have numerous cases of multiple
                          marriages
                          > in both sexes where there wasn't a single divorce. that is why it
                          is
                          > essential you carefully analyse who the witnesses to any child's
                          birth were.
                          > almost always they were specially chosen by the father/parents.
                          > Mark
                          >
                          > _________________________________________________________________
                          > MSN Hotmail is evolving – check out the new Windows Live Mail
                          > http://ideas.live.com
                          >
                        • bob gillis
                          ... I think that the Puritans had a lot to do with it also. bob gillis
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jan 16, 2007
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                            Mark Sutherland-Fisher wrote:

                            >Eleanor,
                            >Sex before marriage was the norm in Scotland and probably England as well
                            >until Queen Victoria and her German morals kicked in!
                            >

                            I think that the Puritans had a lot to do with it also.

                            bob gillis
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