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Isaac Asimov died from AIDS

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  • Chris Hayden
    I had never heard this before yesterday when I was reading Entertainment Weekly Magazine and they had the pictures of a number of famous people who died from
    Message 1 of 25 , Jun 23, 2006
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      I had never heard this before yesterday when I was reading
      Entertainment Weekly Magazine and they had the pictures of a number of
      famous people who died from AIDS or HIV complications.

      Had anyone heard it before in the Sci Fi fan press or other?

      What was the big secret--'til now anyway?
    • md_moore42
      No -- it was noted in Locus magazine. I think that his wife publicized it. ... of
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 23, 2006
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        No -- it was noted in Locus magazine. I think that his wife publicized
        it.

        --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hayden" <Frofidemus@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I had never heard this before yesterday when I was reading
        > Entertainment Weekly Magazine and they had the pictures of a number
        of
        > famous people who died from AIDS or HIV complications.
        >
        > Had anyone heard it before in the Sci Fi fan press or other?
        >
        > What was the big secret--'til now anyway?
        >
      • md_moore42
        Here s the reference. http://www.locusmag.com/2002/Issue04/Letter.html Letter from Janet Asimov Editor s note: The true cause of Isaac Asimov s death in 1992,
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 23, 2006
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          Here's the reference.
          http://www.locusmag.com/2002/Issue04/Letter.html

          Letter from Janet Asimov

          Editor's note: The true cause of Isaac Asimov's death in 1992, from
          complications of HIV infection contracted from a 1983 blood
          transfusion during bypass surgery, was made public in March with
          advance publicity of a book, It's Been a Good Life, a one-volume
          autobiographical collection compiled by Janet Jeppson, Asimov's
          widow, who reveals the situation in the book. Locus Magazine's April
          issue ran the story with the following passage included: "Asimov
          reportedly wanted to reveal he had AIDS but was talked out of it at
          the time by his second wife, Janet Jeppson." The following is a
          letter from Janet (Jeppson) Asimov.


          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          ----------

          Dear Locus,

          I hope no one will believe that, according to the article in Locus,
          Isaac Asimov "wanted to reveal he had AIDS but was talked out of it
          at the time by his second wife, Janet Jeppson." A few years after
          Isaac's bypass surgery, he had some symptoms that made me read the
          medical journals---and then I wanted him tested for HIV. The
          internist and cardiologist said I was wrong. Testing was done only
          when he was seriously ill and in the hospital for surgery on his by
          then infected heart valves. The surgery was cancelled, and the
          doctors told us not to reveal Isaac's HIV. I argued with the doctors
          privately about this secrecy, but they prevailed, even after Isaac
          died. The doctors are dead now, and when Prometheus books asked me to
          write "It's Been a Good Life", Isaac's daughter and I agreed to go
          public on the HIV.


          Janet Asimov
          4 April 2002



          --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hayden" <Frofidemus@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I had never heard this before yesterday when I was reading
          > Entertainment Weekly Magazine and they had the pictures of a number
          of
          > famous people who died from AIDS or HIV complications.
          >
          > Had anyone heard it before in the Sci Fi fan press or other?
          >
          > What was the big secret--'til now anyway?
          >
        • Chris Hayden
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 24, 2006
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            <<What I am saying is these doctors killed a best selling author
            through negligence and there was no megasuit for megamillions?

            And what about Asimov himself? They killed him! He just accepted it
            quietly? Was he too sick to write or tell about what happened? Did
            he just give up (like Eazy E?)

            --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "md_moore42" <md_moore42@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Here's the reference.
            > http://www.locusmag.com/2002/Issue04/Letter.html
            >
            > Letter from Janet Asimov
            >
            > Editor's note: The true cause of Isaac Asimov's death in 1992, from
            > complications of HIV infection contracted from a 1983 blood
            > transfusion during bypass surgery, was made public in March with
            > advance publicity of a book, It's Been a Good Life, a one-volume
            > autobiographical collection compiled by Janet Jeppson, Asimov's
            > widow, who reveals the situation in the book. Locus Magazine's
            April
            > issue ran the story with the following passage included: "Asimov
            > reportedly wanted to reveal he had AIDS but was talked out of it at
            > the time by his second wife, Janet Jeppson." The following is a
            > letter from Janet (Jeppson) Asimov.
            >
            >
            > --------------------------------------------------------------------
            --
            > ----------
            >
            > Dear Locus,
            >
            > I hope no one will believe that, according to the article in Locus,
            > Isaac Asimov "wanted to reveal he had AIDS but was talked out of it
            > at the time by his second wife, Janet Jeppson." A few years after
            > Isaac's bypass surgery, he had some symptoms that made me read the
            > medical journals---and then I wanted him tested for HIV. The
            > internist and cardiologist said I was wrong. Testing was done only
            > when he was seriously ill and in the hospital for surgery on his by
            > then infected heart valves. The surgery was cancelled, and the
            > doctors told us not to reveal Isaac's HIV. I argued with the
            doctors
            > privately about this secrecy, but they prevailed, even after Isaac
            > died. The doctors are dead now, and when Prometheus books asked me
            to
            > write "It's Been a Good Life", Isaac's daughter and I agreed to go
            > public on the HIV.
            >
            >
            > Janet Asimov
            > 4 April 2002
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hayden" <Frofidemus@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I had never heard this before yesterday when I was reading
            > > Entertainment Weekly Magazine and they had the pictures of a
            number
            > of
            > > famous people who died from AIDS or HIV complications.
            > >
            > > Had anyone heard it before in the Sci Fi fan press or other?
            > >
            > > What was the big secret--'til now anyway?
            > >
            >
          • md_moore42
            Ah, now you ask questions beyond what I ve read. I would have to check the dates against the history of AIDS. There was a 1 to 2 year period when there was
            Message 5 of 25 , Jun 25, 2006
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              Ah, now you ask questions beyond what I've read. I would have to
              check the dates against the history of AIDS. There was a 1 to 2 year
              period when there was no blood test for AIDS and the folks who ran the
              blood donor centers refused to stop paying blood donors or do any kind
              of vetting. It's possible that is when he received the tainted blood.
              There were occasionally suits in this era. Difficult to win, I would
              imagine. Who do you sue: the doctors who ordered blood for a dying
              man; the blood centers who refused to notify the public that there was
              a problem out there (that is who was usually sued). When there is no
              test, the issue is sort of moot.

              --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hayden" <Frofidemus@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > <<What I am saying is these doctors killed a best selling author
              > through negligence and there was no megasuit for megamillions?
              >
              > And what about Asimov himself? They killed him! He just accepted it
              > quietly? Was he too sick to write or tell about what happened? Did
              > he just give up (like Eazy E?)
              >
              > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "md_moore42" <md_moore42@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Here's the reference.
              > > http://www.locusmag.com/2002/Issue04/Letter.html
              > >
              > > Letter from Janet Asimov
              > >
              > > Editor's note: The true cause of Isaac Asimov's death in 1992, from
              > > complications of HIV infection contracted from a 1983 blood
              > > transfusion during bypass surgery, was made public in March with
              > > advance publicity of a book, It's Been a Good Life, a one-volume
              > > autobiographical collection compiled by Janet Jeppson, Asimov's
              > > widow, who reveals the situation in the book. Locus Magazine's
              > April
              > > issue ran the story with the following passage included: "Asimov
              > > reportedly wanted to reveal he had AIDS but was talked out of it at
              > > the time by his second wife, Janet Jeppson." The following is a
              > > letter from Janet (Jeppson) Asimov.
              > >
              > >
              > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              > --
              > > ----------
              > >
              > > Dear Locus,
              > >
              > > I hope no one will believe that, according to the article in Locus,
              > > Isaac Asimov "wanted to reveal he had AIDS but was talked out of it
              > > at the time by his second wife, Janet Jeppson." A few years after
              > > Isaac's bypass surgery, he had some symptoms that made me read the
              > > medical journals---and then I wanted him tested for HIV. The
              > > internist and cardiologist said I was wrong. Testing was done only
              > > when he was seriously ill and in the hospital for surgery on his by
              > > then infected heart valves. The surgery was cancelled, and the
              > > doctors told us not to reveal Isaac's HIV. I argued with the
              > doctors
              > > privately about this secrecy, but they prevailed, even after Isaac
              > > died. The doctors are dead now, and when Prometheus books asked me
              > to
              > > write "It's Been a Good Life", Isaac's daughter and I agreed to go
              > > public on the HIV.
              > >
              > >
              > > Janet Asimov
              > > 4 April 2002
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hayden" <Frofidemus@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I had never heard this before yesterday when I was reading
              > > > Entertainment Weekly Magazine and they had the pictures of a
              > number
              > > of
              > > > famous people who died from AIDS or HIV complications.
              > > >
              > > > Had anyone heard it before in the Sci Fi fan press or other?
              > > >
              > > > What was the big secret--'til now anyway?
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Chris Hayden
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 27, 2006
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                <<When there is no test a good lawyer proves there should have been a
                test.


                --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "md_moore42" <md_moore42@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > ). When there is no
                > test, the issue is sort of moot.
                >
                > ---
              • md_moore42
                Ok, I looked it up for you. http://www.aegis.com/topics/timeline/ Several parents of hemophiliac children did sue. It was the death of children that caused
                Message 7 of 25 , Jun 27, 2006
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                  Ok, I looked it up for you. http://www.aegis.com/topics/timeline/
                  Several parents of hemophiliac children did sue. It was the death of
                  children that caused the blood banks to finally move. As long as it
                  was a gay disease (in the U.S.), the-powers-that-be didn't really care.

                  I'm not disagreeing with you. That's why I ignore the diatribes
                  against "trial lawyers". They are the only reason that many injustices
                  get addressed in this country. However, even they didn't have a lever
                  until Ryan White and Rock Hudson died.

                  --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hayden" <Frofidemus@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > <<When there is no test a good lawyer proves there should have been a
                  > test.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "md_moore42" <md_moore42@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > ). When there is no
                  > > test, the issue is sort of moot.
                  > >
                  > > ---
                  >
                • Carole McDonnell
                  I remember it being the diseases of the three H s. Homosexuals, Haitians, and hemophiliacs. Am trying to remember, but wasn t there some scandal with how the
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jun 28, 2006
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                    I remember it being the diseases of the three H's. Homosexuals,
                    Haitians, and hemophiliacs.

                    Am trying to remember, but wasn't there some scandal with how the tests
                    were performed. Something about the French having a better test and the
                    Americans only using their inferior version. Hard to remember these
                    things when so much time has passed by.

                    --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "md_moore42" <md_moore42@...>
                    wrote:
                    As long as it
                    > was a gay disease (in the U.S.), the-powers-that-be didn't really
                    care.
                    >
                  • Chris Hayden
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jun 28, 2006
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                      <<None of this still answers the question of why Asimov or his wife
                      didn't go off on them in the media or sue themselves.

                      He got it through a bad transfusion. Was Asimov too sick? Why
                      didn't his wife and family?



                      --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Carole McDonnell"
                      <Oreoblues@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I remember it being the diseases of the three H's. Homosexuals,
                      > Haitians, and hemophiliacs.
                      >
                      > Am trying to remember, but wasn't there some scandal with how the
                      tests
                      > were performed. Something about the French having a better test
                      and the
                      > Americans only using their inferior version. Hard to remember
                      these
                      > things when so much time has passed by.
                      >
                      > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "md_moore42" <md_moore42@>
                      > wrote:
                      > As long as it
                      > > was a gay disease (in the U.S.), the-powers-that-be didn't
                      really
                      > care.
                      > >
                      >
                    • md_moore42
                      There s no requirement to sue after all. Why should that have been his family s automatic reaction? Especially for a man who was dying after a long
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jun 28, 2006
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                        There's no requirement to sue after all. Why should that have been
                        his family's automatic reaction? Especially for a man who was dying
                        after a long productive life?

                        For all I know, they did consult a lawyer; but personally I don't
                        care for the automatic response that says "you made a mistake. I'm
                        going to sue you."


                        --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hayden" <Frofidemus@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > <<None of this still answers the question of why Asimov or his wife
                        > didn't go off on them in the media or sue themselves.
                        >
                        > He got it through a bad transfusion. Was Asimov too sick? Why
                        > didn't his wife and family?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Carole McDonnell"
                        > <Oreoblues@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I remember it being the diseases of the three H's. Homosexuals,
                        > > Haitians, and hemophiliacs.
                        > >
                        > > Am trying to remember, but wasn't there some scandal with how the
                        > tests
                        > > were performed. Something about the French having a better test
                        > and the
                        > > Americans only using their inferior version. Hard to remember
                        > these
                        > > things when so much time has passed by.
                        > >
                        > > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "md_moore42" <md_moore42@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > As long as it
                        > > > was a gay disease (in the U.S.), the-powers-that-be didn't
                        > really
                        > > care.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Carole McDonnell
                        I agree with you about our culture s automatic reaction to sue. But the dying after a long productive life bit is kinda weird. No matter how long and
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jun 28, 2006
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                          I agree with you about our culture's automatic reaction to sue. But
                          the "dying after a long productive life" bit is kinda weird.

                          No matter how long and productive one's life is, one doesn't want to
                          die. Life is always too short for those who have had productive lives.
                          Now if he were a depressive and was in some ways always longing for
                          death...now that's a different story. But you can't say that someone
                          should be pragmatic about the length of his life when he's been given a
                          death sentence.

                          -C

                          --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "md_moore42" <md_moore42@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > There's no requirement to sue after all. Why should that have been
                          > his family's automatic reaction? Especially for a man who was dying
                          > after a long productive life?
                        • Nora
                          ... I m not sure I agree with that, Carole. Not to debate theology with you -- you d win hands-down =) -- but I see no reason why a person can t come to an
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jun 28, 2006
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                            > No matter how long and productive one's life is, one doesn't want to
                            > die. Life is always too short for those who have had productive lives.
                            > Now if he were a depressive and was in some ways always longing for
                            > death...now that's a different story. But you can't say that someone
                            > should be pragmatic about the length of his life when he's been given a
                            > death sentence.

                            I'm not sure I agree with that, Carole. Not to debate theology with you --
                            you'd win hands-down =) -- but I see no reason why a person can't come to an
                            acceptance of death, or even a positive outlook on it, particularly if they
                            believe there's something to look forward to afterward. Isn't that the one
                            commonality of every faith -- that it provides some comfort for the fear of
                            death? I feel no fear of death at this point in my life, and I'm only in my
                            thirties. I'm not suicidal; I want to enjoy my life while it lasts, and
                            accomplish quite a bit more along the way. I *am* afraid of dying badly --
                            something very painful or humiliating (yes, I expect to retain some vanity
                            even unto death =P) for example. But once the messy part is over with, I
                            have to admit I'm really curious to find out what comes after. I can't help
                            it. I'll never get into space or live half of the adventures that I write
                            about in my novels, but death is the one great mystery we'll all get to
                            experience. If Asimov felt anything similar, then I see no reason why he
                            would have been angry about his death even if it was hastened by a mistake.

                            (Now, if I get hit by a bus on my way home ya'll, somebody send this email
                            to my mama. =P)

                            Nora
                          • Carole McDonnell
                            I wasn t talking about acceptance of death actually. My point was specifically about whether Person A could say that Persom B would or should be pragmatic
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jun 28, 2006
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                              I wasn't talking about acceptance of death actually.

                              My point was specifically about whether Person A could say that
                              Persom B would or should be pragmatic about the end of Person B's
                              life.

                              It's the "someone else" factor.

                              As for wanting to die, I'm sure many people have accepted death. And
                              some have raged against the dying of the light. But I suspect that
                              when someone has written many stories and probably wants to write
                              many more, they would be a bit stressed to suddenly be told that they
                              really have lived a long life. Again it's the "someone else" judging
                              the worth of another person's life. And judging it by the year factor.

                              This is not about whether accepting the afterlife in a positive
                              manner. I personally would like nothing better than to die and go to
                              heaven and be with Christ, but isn't that the point? That we cannot
                              use ageism to say "well this person has lived a long life." So I've
                              accepted the joys of after-death. It wasn't death I had the problem
                              with but with people thinking that once a person -- productive or not-
                              - has reached a certain age, then life doesn't matter to them
                              anymore. The young hate life sometimes -- as I often do. And the old
                              love it. Or they fear death and resent it when it comes. Age and
                              should not be the decisive factor about whether one should sue in a
                              wrongful death case. Nor for that matter should that other vague
                              bugaboo "quality of life" be judged by someone else.

                              We don't want a fascist world ruled by young people who think that
                              old people should be rational and positively go gently into that good
                              night just because the old person is ...old. -C


                              --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, Nora <njem@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > No matter how long and productive one's life is, one doesn't want
                              to
                              > > die. Life is always too short for those who have had productive
                              lives.
                              > > Now if he were a depressive and was in some ways always longing
                              for
                              > > death...now that's a different story. But you can't say that
                              someone
                              > > should be pragmatic about the length of his life when he's been
                              given a
                              > > death sentence.
                              >
                              > I'm not sure I agree with that, Carole. Not to debate theology
                              with you --
                              > you'd win hands-down =) -- but I see no reason why a person can't
                              come to an
                              > acceptance of death, or even a positive outlook on it, particularly
                              if they
                              > believe there's something to look forward to afterward. Isn't that
                              the one
                              > commonality of every faith -- that it provides some comfort for the
                              fear of
                              > death? I feel no fear of death at this point in my life, and I'm
                              only in my
                              > thirties. I'm not suicidal; I want to enjoy my life while it
                              lasts, and
                              > accomplish quite a bit more along the way. I *am* afraid of dying
                              badly --
                              > something very painful or humiliating (yes, I expect to retain some
                              vanity
                              > even unto death =P) for example. But once the messy part is over
                              with, I
                              > have to admit I'm really curious to find out what comes after. I
                              can't help
                              > it. I'll never get into space or live half of the adventures that
                              I write
                              > about in my novels, but death is the one great mystery we'll all
                              get to
                              > experience. If Asimov felt anything similar, then I see no reason
                              why he
                              > would have been angry about his death even if it was hastened by a
                              mistake.
                              >
                              > (Now, if I get hit by a bus on my way home ya'll, somebody send
                              this email
                              > to my mama. =P)
                              >
                              > Nora
                              >
                            • Nora
                              ... I didn t get the impression he was saying that. It seemed he was suggesting that Asimov *could* have been content with his death, that s all. ... But
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com
                                > [mailto:SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carole McDonnell
                                > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:16 PM
                                > To: SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [SciFiNoir Lit] Re: Isaac Asimov died from AIDS
                                > I wasn't talking about acceptance of death actually.
                                > My point was specifically about whether Person A could say that
                                > Persom B would or should be pragmatic about the end of Person B's
                                > life.
                                > It's the "someone else" factor.

                                I didn't get the impression he was saying that. It seemed he was suggesting
                                that Asimov *could* have been content with his death, that's all.

                                > As for wanting to die, I'm sure many people have accepted death. And
                                > some have raged against the dying of the light. But I suspect that
                                > when someone has written many stories and probably wants to write
                                > many more, they would be a bit stressed to suddenly be told that they
                                > really have lived a long life. Again it's the "someone else" judging
                                > the worth of another person's life. And judging it by the year factor.

                                But aren't you doing that, by suggesting that a writer, or someone who's
                                lived a full life (whether real or perceived), should be unhappy about the
                                approach of death? As you say, it has nothing to do with age. I think it
                                has nothing to do with artistry/profession, either. Even the best writers
                                can reach a point at which they feel they've told enough stories, or told
                                the right stories, and can therefore die in good conscience. If I recall,
                                Yukio Mishima (in his thirties or early forties, I think) killed himself in
                                part because he'd completed his magnum opus, and felt that he'd done enough
                                to make himself worthy of an honorable death.

                                > This is not about whether accepting the afterlife in a positive
                                > manner. I personally would like nothing better than to die and go to
                                > heaven and be with Christ, but isn't that the point? That we cannot
                                > use ageism to say "well this person has lived a long life." So I've
                                > accepted the joys of after-death. It wasn't death I had the problem
                                > with but with people thinking that once a person -- productive or not-
                                > - has reached a certain age, then life doesn't matter to them
                                > anymore. The young hate life sometimes -- as I often do. And the old
                                > love it.

                                That's a big assumption, Carole, and I think you know it can't be true for
                                *all* old people.

                                Or they fear death and resent it when it comes. Age and
                                > should not be the decisive factor about whether one should sue in a
                                > wrongful death case. Nor for that matter should that other vague
                                > bugaboo "quality of life" be judged by someone else.

                                I think it can't be denied that Asimov lived *well* during his years,
                                accomplishing much and gaining international fame. Granted, Asimov himself
                                may not have considered his accomplishments to be worth much -- though
                                there's no evidence of this -- so you're right in that no one can say how he
                                really felt about his life. Even his wife may not be sure. But I don't
                                think it's far off base to say that in comparison with most people, he'd
                                lived an extraordinary life.

                                > We don't want a fascist world ruled by young people who think that
                                > old people should be rational and positively go gently into that good
                                > night just because the old person is ...old. -C

                                I can't speak for MD Moore, but I really don't think he was suggesting mass
                                euthanasia on anyone over 65. =) And do you consider those cultures of the
                                world which *do* espouse elderly suicide to all be fascist? The Inuit, for
                                example?

                                Nora
                              • Carole McDonnell
                                This is what MMoore said: There s no requirement to sue after all. Why should that have been his family s automatic reaction? Especially for a man who was
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                  This is what MMoore said:

                                  "There's no requirement to sue after all. Why should that have been
                                  his family's automatic reaction? Especially for a man who was dying
                                  after a long productive life?

                                  For all I know, they did consult a lawyer; but personally I don't
                                  care for the automatic response that says 'you made a mistake. I'm
                                  going to sue you.'"

                                  I was focusing on the "especially for a man who was dying after a
                                  long productive life."

                                  Perhaps I read it wrong. Basically, I'm still getting over being
                                  forced to pull the plug on my mother two years ago when everyone was
                                  saying I should sign the DNR because she had lived a long productive
                                  life. Mama was a nice little old lady who was 71 but I would've
                                  liked to have her for another 20 years and I was very resentful of
                                  some outsiders telling me not to give her a chance to live and using
                                  the old "well she's lived a long productive life" so perhaps we
                                  shouldn't rage so much against the dying of the light...and those who
                                  had helped put that light out.

                                  In addition, because I have a multiply disabled son and people are
                                  always telling me that I should put him away in a home and that I
                                  shouldn't hope for a miraculous recovery because his life is good
                                  enough as it is, I just have an axe to grid about people judging how
                                  long or how well they think someone else's life is.

                                  If Isaac had said, "I won't sue because I have had a long productive
                                  life," then I'd be cool with it. It would've been Isaac's opinion of
                                  his own life. But when someone A says that someone B can not fight
                                  for his life, or fight against those who are taking his life, then I
                                  get pissed at it. We as a culture are always thinking we can judge
                                  other folks' lives...and we're always shoulding on people. What if
                                  Isaac had said, "I am not happy to be dying," would we be pissed that
                                  he didn't accept his death? It seems that some of us would be.
                                  Because we're all-knowing and we have it like that. But alas, I'm not
                                  wise about how other folks should react to their own lives. And I
                                  don't use the "after all, they lived a good productive life" to knock
                                  people into grave or into submission to the evils of life.

                                  PErhaps he should've sued. Perhaps he would've won. Then that old
                                  bugaboo "a long productive life" wouldn't be such an easy excuse to
                                  shuffle the old so easily into their graves.

                                  -C

                                  PS: I like you Nora but I've got to say I think you're trying to
                                  misunderstand what I said. Or maybe I'm not being clear. <-- this
                                  last part included as a kind of etiquette but not something I really
                                  believe, BTW.




                                  Carole McDonnell
                                  Wind Follower April 2007 Juno Books
                                  alternate email: carole.mcdonnell (at) gmail (dot)com
                                  www.geocities.com/scifiwritir/OreoBlues.html

                                  --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Nora" <njem@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I didn't get the impression he was saying that. It seemed he was
                                  suggesting
                                  > that Asimov *could* have been content with his death, that's all.
                                  >
                                • Yusuf Nuruddin
                                  Hmmmm. Not at all commenting upon nor trivializing any of your personal trials or tragedies concerning your deceased mom and your disabled son. But the idea
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                    Hmmmm. Not at all commenting upon nor trivializing any of your personal trials or tragedies concerning your deceased mom and your disabled son. But the idea which you are railing against --making life and death decisions about the elderly based upon the fact that they haved already lived a long and productive life figures into the answer of a conundrum that someone once posed to me: The secnario is that you and two family members were in an accident at sea, a capsized boat for example. Your elderly parent and young child (say your septuagenarian dad and your toddler daughter so that you don't personalize this too much) were both in danger of drowning. You as a proficient swimmer had the strength and ability to save one of them -- but only one. Which one would you save? And why? This was posed as a hypothetical question to people in a logic seminar to see what the basis of their decision would be.

                                    Carole McDonnell <Oreoblues@...> wrote:
                                    This is what MMoore said:

                                    "There's no requirement to sue after all. Why should that have been
                                    his family's automatic reaction? Especially for a man who was dying
                                    after a long productive life?

                                    For all I know, they did consult a lawyer; but personally I don't
                                    care for the automatic response that says 'you made a mistake. I'm
                                    going to sue you.'"

                                    I was focusing on the "especially for a man who was dying after a
                                    long productive life."

                                    Perhaps I read it wrong. Basically, I'm still getting over being
                                    forced to pull the plug on my mother two years ago when everyone was
                                    saying I should sign the DNR because she had lived a long productive
                                    life. Mama was a nice little old lady who was 71 but I would've
                                    liked to have her for another 20 years and I was very resentful of
                                    some outsiders telling me not to give her a chance to live and using
                                    the old "well she's lived a long productive life" so perhaps we
                                    shouldn't rage so much against the dying of the light...and those who
                                    had helped put that light out.

                                    In addition, because I have a multiply disabled son and people are
                                    always telling me that I should put him away in a home and that I
                                    shouldn't hope for a miraculous recovery because his life is good
                                    enough as it is, I just have an axe to grid about people judging how
                                    long or how well they think someone else's life is.

                                    If Isaac had said, "I won't sue because I have had a long productive
                                    life," then I'd be cool with it. It would've been Isaac's opinion of
                                    his own life. But when someone A says that someone B can not fight
                                    for his life, or fight against those who are taking his life, then I
                                    get pissed at it. We as a culture are always thinking we can judge
                                    other folks' lives...and we're always shoulding on people. What if
                                    Isaac had said, "I am not happy to be dying," would we be pissed that
                                    he didn't accept his death? It seems that some of us would be.
                                    Because we're all-knowing and we have it like that. But alas, I'm not
                                    wise about how other folks should react to their own lives. And I
                                    don't use the "after all, they lived a good productive life" to knock
                                    people into grave or into submission to the evils of life.

                                    PErhaps he should've sued. Perhaps he would've won. Then that old
                                    bugaboo "a long productive life" wouldn't be such an easy excuse to
                                    shuffle the old so easily into their graves.

                                    -C

                                    PS: I like you Nora but I've got to say I think you're trying to
                                    misunderstand what I said. Or maybe I'm not being clear. <-- this
                                    last part included as a kind of etiquette but not something I really
                                    believe, BTW.

                                    Carole McDonnell
                                    Wind Follower April 2007 Juno Books
                                    alternate email: carole.mcdonnell (at) gmail (dot)com
                                    www.geocities.com/scifiwritir/OreoBlues.html

                                    --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Nora" <njem@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I didn't get the impression he was saying that. It seemed he was
                                    suggesting
                                    > that Asimov *could* have been content with his death, that's all.
                                    >






                                    ---------------------------------
                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                    Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Nora
                                    ... I m not trying to misinterpret anything, Carole -- I was trying to correct what seemed to me to be a misinterpretation you were making. I think, and this
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carole McDonnell
                                      > If Isaac had said, "I won't sue because I have had a long productive
                                      > life," then I'd be cool with it. It would've been Isaac's opinion of
                                      > his own life. But when someone A says that someone B can not fight
                                      > for his life, or fight against those who are taking his life, then I
                                      > get pissed at it. We as a culture are always thinking we can judge
                                      > other folks' lives...and we're always shoulding on people. What if
                                      > Isaac had said, "I am not happy to be dying," would we be pissed that
                                      > he didn't accept his death? It seems that some of us would be.
                                      > Because we're all-knowing and we have it like that. But alas, I'm not
                                      > wise about how other folks should react to their own lives. And I
                                      > don't use the "after all, they lived a good productive life" to knock
                                      > people into grave or into submission to the evils of life.
                                      > PS: I like you Nora but I've got to say I think you're trying to
                                      > misunderstand what I said. Or maybe I'm not being clear. <-- this
                                      > last part included as a kind of etiquette but not something I really
                                      > believe, BTW.

                                      I'm not trying to misinterpret anything, Carole -- I was trying to correct
                                      what seemed to me to be a misinterpretation you were making.

                                      I think, and this is not meant as an attack in any way, that you have a lot
                                      of personal feelings tied up in this based on your own situations. I'm not
                                      saying you shouldn't personalize things; we all do this. I'm just saying
                                      you may be personalizing this in Asimov's case -- i.e., interpreting his
                                      situation through the lens of your loved ones -- while other people are
                                      speaking generally or hypothetically (since in Asimov's case *none* of us
                                      know the real deal). I don't think there's a problem with either
                                      interpretation, but I think that mixing the two can lead to
                                      misunderstanding, as it seems to be doing in this case.

                                      It's natural for people to judge other people's lives. This is a human
                                      thing, not a culture-specific thing. This is how we decide who our heroes
                                      and villains are. And when we hear about someone who's done exceptionally
                                      well in relation to the rest of us, it's natural for us to feel admiration
                                      (or envy!) of that person. In the case of Asimov, I'm not trying to sweep
                                      what happened to the man under the carpet, or shuffle him off to a grave --
                                      even though he's been in one for years now -- or dismiss his final
                                      suffering. It may be that you empathize more with that final suffering than
                                      I do, because you've had to see a loved one go through it. I have too -- in
                                      my case for a relatively young woman (47), who I also came to understand had
                                      lived a full life. So for me, the notion of living a full life means
                                      focusing on how a person has lived, rather than how they're dying/have died.
                                      All I'm saying is that there's many ways the concept can be interpreted,
                                      that's all.

                                      Nora
                                    • md_moore42
                                      I didn t intend to start such a firestorm. (smile) Isaac Asimov was both Jewish and an atheist, so I don t think that he was looking forward to heaven after
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                        I didn't intend to start such a firestorm. (smile)
                                        Isaac Asimov was both Jewish and an atheist, so I don't think
                                        that he was looking forward to heaven after dying.
                                        The business about accepting death was somewhat of a personal
                                        statement. (And I am 50, so you can't pin the young person accepting
                                        death for an older person on me.)
                                        I still think that Americans are too quick to sue when
                                        honest "mistakes" are made. No one is perfect. And in this case,
                                        the villantry is too wide-spread.

                                        His doctor would have been wrong NOT to order a transfusion to save a
                                        dying man.

                                        There was no test for AIDS at that time. I blame the blood centers
                                        for not making that fact known, but knowing that fact would not have
                                        saved him.

                                        Whoever donated was wrong to donate, but s/he might not have known of
                                        the illness.

                                        This isn't a case where an instrument was left in the patient's gut
                                        by a drunk doctor.


                                        --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Carole McDonnell"
                                        <Oreoblues@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I wasn't talking about acceptance of death actually.
                                        >
                                        > My point was specifically about whether Person A could say that
                                        > Persom B would or should be pragmatic about the end of Person B's
                                        > life.
                                        >
                                        > It's the "someone else" factor.
                                        >
                                        > As for wanting to die, I'm sure many people have accepted death.
                                        And
                                        > some have raged against the dying of the light. But I suspect that
                                        > when someone has written many stories and probably wants to write
                                        > many more, they would be a bit stressed to suddenly be told that
                                        they
                                        > really have lived a long life. Again it's the "someone else"
                                        judging
                                        > the worth of another person's life. And judging it by the year
                                        factor.
                                        >
                                        > This is not about whether accepting the afterlife in a positive
                                        > manner. I personally would like nothing better than to die and go
                                        to
                                        > heaven and be with Christ, but isn't that the point? That we cannot
                                        > use ageism to say "well this person has lived a long life." So I've
                                        > accepted the joys of after-death. It wasn't death I had the problem
                                        > with but with people thinking that once a person -- productive or
                                        not-
                                        > - has reached a certain age, then life doesn't matter to them
                                        > anymore. The young hate life sometimes -- as I often do. And the
                                        old
                                        > love it. Or they fear death and resent it when it comes. Age and
                                        > should not be the decisive factor about whether one should sue in a
                                        > wrongful death case. Nor for that matter should that other vague
                                        > bugaboo "quality of life" be judged by someone else.
                                        >
                                        > We don't want a fascist world ruled by young people who think that
                                        > old people should be rational and positively go gently into that
                                        good
                                        > night just because the old person is ...old. -C
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, Nora <njem@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > No matter how long and productive one's life is, one doesn't
                                        want
                                        > to
                                        > > > die. Life is always too short for those who have had productive
                                        > lives.
                                        > > > Now if he were a depressive and was in some ways always longing
                                        > for
                                        > > > death...now that's a different story. But you can't say that
                                        > someone
                                        > > > should be pragmatic about the length of his life when he's been
                                        > given a
                                        > > > death sentence.
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm not sure I agree with that, Carole. Not to debate theology
                                        > with you --
                                        > > you'd win hands-down =) -- but I see no reason why a person can't
                                        > come to an
                                        > > acceptance of death, or even a positive outlook on it,
                                        particularly
                                        > if they
                                        > > believe there's something to look forward to afterward. Isn't
                                        that
                                        > the one
                                        > > commonality of every faith -- that it provides some comfort for
                                        the
                                        > fear of
                                        > > death? I feel no fear of death at this point in my life, and I'm
                                        > only in my
                                        > > thirties. I'm not suicidal; I want to enjoy my life while it
                                        > lasts, and
                                        > > accomplish quite a bit more along the way. I *am* afraid of
                                        dying
                                        > badly --
                                        > > something very painful or humiliating (yes, I expect to retain
                                        some
                                        > vanity
                                        > > even unto death =P) for example. But once the messy part is over
                                        > with, I
                                        > > have to admit I'm really curious to find out what comes after. I
                                        > can't help
                                        > > it. I'll never get into space or live half of the adventures
                                        that
                                        > I write
                                        > > about in my novels, but death is the one great mystery we'll all
                                        > get to
                                        > > experience. If Asimov felt anything similar, then I see no
                                        reason
                                        > why he
                                        > > would have been angry about his death even if it was hastened by
                                        a
                                        > mistake.
                                        > >
                                        > > (Now, if I get hit by a bus on my way home ya'll, somebody send
                                        > this email
                                        > > to my mama. =P)
                                        > >
                                        > > Nora
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • md_moore42
                                        I m sorry for your loss. I went through much of the same with my mother. I had a different reaction than you because my mother did not want to be kept alive
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                          I'm sorry for your loss. I went through much of the same with my
                                          mother.

                                          I had a different reaction than you because my mother did not want to
                                          be kept alive artificially if she was truly gone.

                                          In my case, I was torn because the doctor wanted to remove the
                                          feeding tube and my sister hoped for a recovery. As the primary care
                                          giver, who knew her wishes, I was able to say that she wanted release
                                          because she had lived a productive life. We are coming from
                                          different experiences--that's all.

                                          (Marian)

                                          --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Carole McDonnell"
                                          <Oreoblues@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > This is what MMoore said:
                                          >
                                          > "There's no requirement to sue after all. Why should that have been
                                          > his family's automatic reaction? Especially for a man who was dying
                                          > after a long productive life?
                                          >
                                          > For all I know, they did consult a lawyer; but personally I don't
                                          > care for the automatic response that says 'you made a mistake. I'm
                                          > going to sue you.'"
                                          >
                                          > I was focusing on the "especially for a man who was dying after a
                                          > long productive life."
                                          >
                                          > Perhaps I read it wrong. Basically, I'm still getting over being
                                          > forced to pull the plug on my mother two years ago when everyone
                                          was
                                          > saying I should sign the DNR because she had lived a long
                                          productive
                                          > life. Mama was a nice little old lady who was 71 but I would've
                                          > liked to have her for another 20 years and I was very resentful of
                                          > some outsiders telling me not to give her a chance to live and
                                          using
                                          > the old "well she's lived a long productive life" so perhaps we
                                          > shouldn't rage so much against the dying of the light...and those
                                          who
                                          > had helped put that light out.
                                          >
                                          > In addition, because I have a multiply disabled son and people are
                                          > always telling me that I should put him away in a home and that I
                                          > shouldn't hope for a miraculous recovery because his life is good
                                          > enough as it is, I just have an axe to grid about people judging
                                          how
                                          > long or how well they think someone else's life is.
                                          >
                                          > If Isaac had said, "I won't sue because I have had a long
                                          productive
                                          > life," then I'd be cool with it. It would've been Isaac's opinion
                                          of
                                          > his own life. But when someone A says that someone B can not fight
                                          > for his life, or fight against those who are taking his life, then
                                          I
                                          > get pissed at it. We as a culture are always thinking we can judge
                                          > other folks' lives...and we're always shoulding on people. What if
                                          > Isaac had said, "I am not happy to be dying," would we be pissed
                                          that
                                          > he didn't accept his death? It seems that some of us would be.
                                          > Because we're all-knowing and we have it like that. But alas, I'm
                                          not
                                          > wise about how other folks should react to their own lives. And I
                                          > don't use the "after all, they lived a good productive life" to
                                          knock
                                          > people into grave or into submission to the evils of life.
                                          >
                                          > PErhaps he should've sued. Perhaps he would've won. Then that old
                                          > bugaboo "a long productive life" wouldn't be such an easy excuse to
                                          > shuffle the old so easily into their graves.
                                          >
                                          > -C
                                          >
                                          > PS: I like you Nora but I've got to say I think you're trying to
                                          > misunderstand what I said. Or maybe I'm not being clear. <-- this
                                          > last part included as a kind of etiquette but not something I
                                          really
                                          > believe, BTW.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Carole McDonnell
                                          > Wind Follower April 2007 Juno Books
                                          > alternate email: carole.mcdonnell (at) gmail (dot)com
                                          > www.geocities.com/scifiwritir/OreoBlues.html
                                          >
                                          > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Nora" <njem@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I didn't get the impression he was saying that. It seemed he was
                                          > suggesting
                                          > > that Asimov *could* have been content with his death, that's all.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Carole McDonnell
                                          I was a black woman surrounded by white doctors at Mt Sinai all talking as if an old black woman didn t have anything else to do in the world and I should be
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                            I was a black woman surrounded by white doctors at Mt Sinai all
                                            talking as if an old black woman didn't have anything else to do in
                                            the world and I should be happy she had lived so long.

                                            And once again, I'm not saying death is good or death is bad. What
                                            I'm saying -- I REPEAT-- is that we should be very careful when we
                                            interpret how another person should be feeling about his/her life. I
                                            wish that to be understood. I'm talking about how the power structure
                                            (the young, the wealthy) uses words to dismiss the powerless and
                                            those who are considered marginal -- the old, the weak, those who
                                            have no say.

                                            Certainly if Isaac were younger, no one would say "well, his life was
                                            productive and long." So the difference in conversation and attitude
                                            towards death occurs because of age. And why should it? What if we're
                                            all meant to live to 120? And in Africa where the death penalty is 45-
                                            50 in some places, would we say to a dying 45 year old, "well you've
                                            had a "long life"? It just seems to be a way of quickly dismissing
                                            the grief an older person may have because of the approach of death.

                                            Again, it's not about death but about a young person pontificating
                                            about how an older person "should/might" feel about approaching
                                            death. To me it's like a white person saying what a black person
                                            should/might be thinking. Or a man saying what a woman should/might
                                            be thinking Who the heck is the young person to discuss the older
                                            person's take? The young person's viewpoint is colored by the fact
                                            that he's in a position of power and has not yet reached an older
                                            age. I remember an older woman talking about a person who had died at
                                            60. She shook her head and said, "Oh, and he was still a young man."

                                            It is quite possible that most older people think that "long and
                                            productive life" bit is a lotta crock, and that "society" ony uses
                                            that phrase because society's "cliched phrases" are created by the
                                            powerful...in this case, the powerful are the young and undying. -C


                                            --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "md_moore42" <md_moore42@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I'm sorry for your loss. I went through much of the same with my
                                            > mother.
                                            >
                                            > I had a different reaction than you because my mother did not want
                                            to
                                            > be kept alive artificially if she was truly gone.
                                            >
                                            > In my case, I was torn because the doctor wanted to remove the
                                            > feeding tube and my sister hoped for a recovery. As the primary
                                            care
                                            > giver, who knew her wishes, I was able to say that she wanted
                                            release
                                            > because she had lived a productive life. We are coming from
                                            > different experiences--that's all.
                                            >
                                            > (Marian)
                                          • Chris Hayden
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jun 30, 2006
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                                              <<Suing of course would be a civilized recourse--I would have wanted
                                              to kill everybody responsible as slowly and painfully as I could--we
                                              have substituted courts for private revenge--

                                              --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "md_moore42" <md_moore42@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > There's no requirement to sue after all. Why should that have
                                              been
                                              > his family's automatic reaction? Especially for a man who was
                                              dying
                                              > after a long productive life?
                                              >
                                              > For all I know, they did consult a lawyer; but personally I don't
                                              > care for the automatic response that says "you made a mistake.
                                              I'm
                                              > going to sue you."
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hayden" <Frofidemus@>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > <<None of this still answers the question of why Asimov or his
                                              wife
                                              > > didn't go off on them in the media or sue themselves.
                                              > >
                                              > > He got it through a bad transfusion. Was Asimov too sick? Why
                                              > > didn't his wife and family?
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Carole McDonnell"
                                              > > <Oreoblues@> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I remember it being the diseases of the three H's.
                                              Homosexuals,
                                              > > > Haitians, and hemophiliacs.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Am trying to remember, but wasn't there some scandal with how
                                              the
                                              > > tests
                                              > > > were performed. Something about the French having a better
                                              test
                                              > > and the
                                              > > > Americans only using their inferior version. Hard to remember
                                              > > these
                                              > > > things when so much time has passed by.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "md_moore42"
                                              <md_moore42@>
                                              > > > wrote:
                                              > > > As long as it
                                              > > > > was a gay disease (in the U.S.), the-powers-that-be didn't
                                              > > really
                                              > > > care.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • Chris Hayden
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jun 30, 2006
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                                                <<Particularly as awful, for the sufferer as well as for the family,
                                                as death from AIDS, especially back then, could be--

                                                --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Carole McDonnell"
                                                <Oreoblues@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I agree with you about our culture's automatic reaction to sue.
                                                But
                                                > the "dying after a long productive life" bit is kinda weird.
                                                >
                                                > No matter how long and productive one's life is, one doesn't want
                                                to
                                                > die. Life is always too short for those who have had productive
                                                lives.
                                                > Now if he were a depressive and was in some ways always longing
                                                for
                                                > death...now that's a different story. But you can't say that
                                                someone
                                                > should be pragmatic about the length of his life when he's been
                                                given a
                                                > death sentence.
                                                >
                                                > -C
                                                >
                                                > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "md_moore42" <md_moore42@>
                                                > wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > There's no requirement to sue after all. Why should that have
                                                been
                                                > > his family's automatic reaction? Especially for a man who was
                                                dying
                                                > > after a long productive life?
                                                >
                                              • Carole McDonnell
                                                Ah civilization! Another way in which the powers that be proscribe and control the emotions and behavior of the masses. We would think it horrendously
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Jun 30, 2006
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                                                  Ah civilization! Another way in which the powers that be proscribe
                                                  and control the emotions and behavior of the masses.

                                                  We would think it horrendously uncivilized if Isaac went out and
                                                  stabbed the AIDS company or some AIDS victim to death.

                                                  In much the same way we are trained to think that an old person would
                                                  be "civilized" to accept the "long and productive life" crap.

                                                  That's what I dislike about civilization, it has a certain delicacy
                                                  of hint, and mellowness of sneer which forces people to pretend or to
                                                  repress themselves in order to be considered wise, accepting,
                                                  evolved, understanding and civilized.

                                                  Sorry to dislike civilization so much but as a black woman I've had a
                                                  lot of encounters with the "shoulding" semantics of the white/young
                                                  power structure.
                                                  -C
                                                  --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hayden" <Frofidemus@...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > <<Suing of course would be a civilized recourse--I would have
                                                  wanted
                                                  > to kill everybody responsible as slowly and painfully as I could--
                                                  we
                                                  > have substituted courts for private revenge--
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "md_moore42" <md_moore42@>
                                                  > wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > There's no requirement to sue after all. Why should that have
                                                  > been
                                                  > > his family's automatic reaction? Especially for a man who was
                                                  > dying
                                                  > > after a long productive life?
                                                • Chris Hayden
                                                  ... a
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Jun 30, 2006
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    <<It has been theorized that black women created civilization, or at
                                                    least agriculture which made it possible-->

                                                    --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Carole McDonnell"
                                                    <Oreoblues@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Ah civilization! Another way in which the powers that be proscribe
                                                    > and control the emotions and behavior of the masses.
                                                    >
                                                    >>>
                                                    > Sorry to dislike civilization so much but as a black woman I've had
                                                    a
                                                    > lot of encounters with the "shoulding" semantics of the white/young
                                                    > power structure.
                                                    > -C
                                                    > ---
                                                  • Carole McDonnell
                                                    Possible. But I think that civilization as it happens to be at any one moment is ruled over by the powerful. So perhaps back in the day: women, the elderly,
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Jun 30, 2006
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Possible. But I think that civilization as it happens to be at any
                                                      one moment is ruled over by the powerful. So perhaps back in the day:
                                                      women, the elderly, etc...had power. But now, --generally-- western
                                                      civilization is mainly controlled by the young (20-50) Movies, art,
                                                      economics, philosophy, cultural values are geared towards them and
                                                      created by them.

                                                      In the western world civilization is pretty much ruled over by young
                                                      whites who dictate fashion, etc. Just had a thought: Remember "White
                                                      Man's Burden"? Consider, if the fashion world was ruled over by black
                                                      women, the color palette of most clothing, the way the butt of pants
                                                      were made, the hair styles would all be sooo different.

                                                      And consider if older people were the ones being courted in
                                                      movies...most of the actors would be over 45. I remember watching
                                                      movies in the seventies where most of the popular stars were 45+

                                                      Consider if politicians weren't trying to connect to the young, would
                                                      old people really care about abortion to the extent.

                                                      Consider all the to-do about the dangers of silicone implants!
                                                      (Female issue) But not one peep about the dangers of the horrible
                                                      stuff they put in black women's hair products. (Black female issue
                                                      and we black female aren't the driving force.)

                                                      Or fat people. So many diet pills, and so many things on TV that
                                                      helps us disguise our age because to be old is to be used up and
                                                      unimportant and none of us want that.
                                                      -C


                                                      --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hayden" <Frofidemus@...>
                                                      wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > <<It has been theorized that black women created civilization, or
                                                      at
                                                      > least agriculture which made it possible-->
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