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RE: Is Butler's "Parable" series coming true?

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  • Nyaze
    Duck! The wheel spins cyclically. All that remains a mystery is why people forget that. America can t stay on top forever and when a nation goes belly-up, it
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 30, 2004
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      Duck!

      The wheel spins cyclically. All that remains a mystery is why people
      forget that. America can't stay on top forever and when a nation goes
      belly-up, it goes in predictable ways. Nationalism, division,
      horrible economy, wars... There are differing theories on why but I
      like to think that nations, like individual organisms, have a life
      cycle and, like an organism which slowly dies as its chromosomal
      thread is bit by bit chipped away through division, finally the cells
      can't remember what to do with themselves anymore. They don't know
      their purpose and so they die, going back to the basic state they
      came from. What is America anyway? Land of opportunity? Land of the
      land grab? Or just a washed up old broad with a flickering torch?

      Purpose creates power. You must have power for life. The question of
      America's decline is the question of its search for meaning. It's
      national agenda so to speak. We've done the war thing. The age of
      colonialism is theoretically over. What's left to do? The moon?

      Been there already, but no matter what, here we go again.



      > > In a message dated 11/28/2004 12:48:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      > > SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com writes:
      > > RE: Is Butler's "Parable" series coming true?
      > >
      > > I was just wondering what other books subscribers have read that
      appear to
      > > be coming true.
      > >
      > > Tracey
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Nora [mailto:njem@e...]
      > > Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 6:58 PM
      > > To: SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [SciFiNoir Lit] Is Butler's "Parable" series coming true?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I was just re-reading one of OB's "Parable" books, and was struck
      by the
      > > similarities between the world she posits in the future and the
      reality of
      > > today:
      > >
      > > -The economy is in a state of gradual collapse -- it's becoming
      harder and
      > > harder for the middle class to survive, own property, etc., and
      the poor
      > are
      > > outright struggling for basic necessities such as health care.
      > >
      > > -The cost of gas is getting so high that eventually people will
      have to
      > stop
      > > driving.
      > >
      > > -Fundamentalist Christianity is on the rise, and beginning to
      take control
      > > of public policy -- particularly with regard to women's behavior,
      the
      > > education of children, etc.
      > >
      > > Scary...
      > >
      > > Nora
      > >
      > > Carole McDonnell <>< <>< <><
      > > www.geocities.com/scifiwritir/OreoBlues.html
      > > "A Man of Sorrows, Acquainted with Grief." Isaiah 53, The Bible.
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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    • Cornelius Badie
      I can only give the reply that most in my hood would give to such an agreeable statement: True Dat... Tracey deMorsella (formerly Tracey Minor)
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 30, 2004
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        I can only give the reply that most in my 'hood would give to such an agreeable statement: "True Dat..."

        "Tracey deMorsella (formerly Tracey Minor)" <tdlists@...> wrote:While your digging your hole, I have been digging mine. I fear we don't
        have much time. I hope I am way off base. I wish I could have the bliss of
        ignorance, but I do not. Foreigners or one targeted group is usually simply
        the first to be persecuted in an evolving fascist regime. After September
        11, it was simply Arab Muslims who were first, soon, if not already it will
        be anybody who is "against us" as the Dominionist leaders of our country
        like to say.

        If someone perceives the attack of politician use of religion for power as
        an attack on Christians, I think they are unlikely to believe that anything
        wrong is being does and will not likely take seriously any view I have on
        the issue then that person is unlikely to share any beliefs with me about
        what I think is really going on. I have too much to do in too little time to
        try to change that person's mind. He or she has every right to have those
        beliefs.

        Tracey

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Cornelius Badie [mailto:cwbadie@...]
        Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 7:15 PM
        To: SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [SciFiNoir Lit] Re:RE: Is Butler's "Parable" series coming
        true?




        Very observant also Tracey, but how a bout taking it one step further? How
        about anything that is too foreign to the social engineering called American
        culture is picked upon. You onlt have to spend time outside the country
        (with 'open eyes and mind' of course) to see just how ugly we can be to
        outsiders when you return. Political prisoners are not always foreigners
        either. Think about how over the years those who thought differently of the
        'American Way' were either persecuted, imprisoned or exterminated.
        ...Nuff said. I think I've finished digging my hole...

        "Tracey deMorsella (formerly Tracey Minor)" <tdlists@...> wrote:

        Very observant!

        However, I have to disagree with your statement:
        " -- anything vaguely Christian being picked on but other religions being
        accepted"

        I think that there are a few Muslims and Jews who would disagree. There are
        Muslims rotting in American prisons for years now with no charge and no
        access to a lawyer. I have also heard of Sikhs and Hindus being persecuted
        here as well. I have not heard of that happening to Christians in America.

        I think that Evangelistic Zealots who embrace racism, pursue an agenda to
        accelerate the coming of "the endtime", who justify torture and war, who
        insist that only their way is the right way and all other deserve the worse
        and are evil, who are against abortion but for capital punishment knowing
        that a large number of innocent people are being executed---- are the
        "people being picked on"

        I know well respected Christian spiritual leaders who "pick on" those
        "Christians" who embrace these ironically, very non-Christian philosophies
        and practices. The God I have read about and studied would not want these
        things done in his name.

        I do not think the average Christian is the target of those are criticizing
        the use of evangelism to control, make profit, gain power, kill, and make
        war.

        I hope that the real Christian leaders in our country will one day be able
        to get religion out of the corporate, military, and political world so that
        people can get back to the practicing their faith and not being pawns in a
        power grab that will likely lead to Armageddon.

        Tracey



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Oreoblues@... [mailto:Oreoblues@...]
        Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 8:56 AM
        To: SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SciFiNoir Lit] Re:RE: Is Butler's "Parable" series coming
        true?



        The Bible.

        Prophecies that Jerusalem would be the cause of much regional fighting in
        the
        Middle East and that the whole world will be concerned and burdened about
        that little city, that Jewish folks will be hated by all countries, and that
        possibly the end of the world will revolve around Israel and the middle
        east.
        Interesting considering that when the prophets wrote all this stuff Israel
        was a
        small little country no one heard about.

        The prophecy that the Anti-christ will give everyone a mark --- in their
        hand
        or forehead which they must use to buy or sell. No doubt the bio-chip will
        lead to that.

        That the gospel of Jesus Christ would be preached around the world, that
        prophets of the gospel would be seen all around the world at the same time
        telling
        this message. Interesting considering that Jesus was a nobody wrongfully
        executed by the state and buried in an unmarked grave and that idea of folks
        all
        over the world seeing something the same time happened way before television
        was invented.

        The rise of people calling good evil and calling evil good.

        The hatred of good people and the hatred of Christians -- anything vaguely
        Christian being picked on but other religions being accepted, the rise of
        abortions (Also a native American end-time prohpecy) Creches, prayers and
        religious
        symbols used to be public for hundreds of years in the US and Canada and
        thousands in Europe but now they are forbidden.

        If the Bible is fiction, those guys certainly hit the mark!

        -Carole

        In a message dated 11/28/2004 12:48:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com writes:
        RE: Is Butler's "Parable" series coming true?

        I was just wondering what other books subscribers have read that appear to
        be coming true.

        Tracey

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Nora [mailto:njem@...]
        Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 6:58 PM
        To: SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SciFiNoir Lit] Is Butler's "Parable" series coming true?



        I was just re-reading one of OB's "Parable" books, and was struck by the
        similarities between the world she posits in the future and the reality of
        today:

        -The economy is in a state of gradual collapse -- it's becoming harder and
        harder for the middle class to survive, own property, etc., and the poor are
        outright struggling for basic necessities such as health care.

        -The cost of gas is getting so high that eventually people will have to stop
        driving.

        -Fundamentalist Christianity is on the rise, and beginning to take control
        of public policy -- particularly with regard to women's behavior, the
        education of children, etc.

        Scary...

        Nora

        Carole McDonnell <>< <>< <><
        www.geocities.com/scifiwritir/OreoBlues.html
        "A Man of Sorrows, Acquainted with Grief." Isaiah 53, The Bible.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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      • Cornelius Badie
        Egad!!! Pease excuse the typos... Cornelius Badie wrote: I wouldn t say it s coming true. If we look hard enough into anysituation, we can
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 30, 2004
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          Egad!!! Pease excuse the typos...

          Cornelius Badie <cwbadie@...> wrote:
          I wouldn't say it's coming true. If we look hard enough into anysituation, we can find the similarities we seek. I do, however agree with her character's philosophy. We waste time thinking too much about ourselves but not about us. Mopst important, we, myself included, don't spend enough time on our children. They are the ones who will have to deal with the damage we've done. One thing that bothers me about m'Lady Octavia's story is once again we have taken a powerful idea and wrapped it in an obscuring cloud of religion. I think the character realizes the damaging effect it could cause, but considering her background, she was probably using the only vehicle she knew at the time. I did like how she characterized God as something more internal, but past experience made me shiver involuntarily at what could happen if her words are taken out of context and distorted.

          Oreoblues@... wrote:
          The Bible.

          Prophecies that Jerusalem would be the cause of much regional fighting in the
          Middle East and that the whole world will be concerned and burdened about
          that little city, that Jewish folks will be hated by all countries, and that
          possibly the end of the world will revolve around Israel and the middle east.
          Interesting considering that when the prophets wrote all this stuff Israel was a
          small little country no one heard about.


          CW: Well that maybe true, but because of Christianity, quite a few people don't like the Jews. We also tend to forget that Christianity as a whole is still based upon the same premise as Judaism


          The prophecy that the Anti-christ will give everyone a mark --- in their hand
          or forehead which they must use to buy or sell. No doubt the bio-chip will
          lead to that.


          CW: I have to admit, that does frighten me, but if the tradeoff is better health and less crime, cool. Also take into consideration that we live in an entropic universe. If they try use such things to control or bring order in a place that tends toward disorder, it naturally, whether prophesied or not, will get worse.


          That the gospel of Jesus Christ would be preached around the world, that
          prophets of the gospel would be seen all around the world at the same time telling
          this message. Interesting considering that Jesus was a nobody wrongfully
          executed by the state and buried in an unmarked grave and that idea of folks all
          over the world seeing something the same time happened way before television
          was invented.

          The rise of people calling good evil and calling evil good.

          The hatred of good people and the hatred of Christians -- anything vaguely
          Christian being picked on but other religions being accepted, the rise of
          abortions (Also a native American end-time prohpecy) Creches, prayers and religious
          symbols used to be public for hundreds of years in the US and Canada and
          thousands in Europe but now they are forbidden.

          If the Bible is fiction, those guys certainly hit the mark!

          -Carole


          CW: Most good thinkers do...


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        • Tracey deMorsella (formerly Tracey Minor)
          I am glad someone brought the religious aspect up. I loved the book but that bother me as well. Tracey ... From: Cornelius Badie [mailto:cwbadie@yahoo.com]
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 1, 2004
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            I am glad someone brought the religious aspect up. I loved the book but
            that bother me as well.

            Tracey

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Cornelius Badie [mailto:cwbadie@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:28 AM
            To: SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SciFiNoir Lit] Re:RE: Is Butler's "Parable" series coming
            true? CW: Hmmm...
            Egad!!! Pease excuse the typos...

            Cornelius Badie <cwbadie@...> wrote:
            One thing that bothers me about m'Lady Octavia's story is once again we have
            taken a powerful idea and wrapped it in an obscuring cloud of religion. I
            think the character realizes the damaging effect it could cause, but
            considering her background, she was probably using the only vehicle she knew
            at the time. I did like how she characterized God as something more
            internal, but past experience made me shiver involuntarily at what could
            happen if her words are taken out of context and distorted.

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          • Nora
            ... Hmm... I don t see the problem with it. I don t believe it was Butler s intention to create a perfect religion or a utopia. I think she tried to show
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 1, 2004
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              > From: Cornelius Badie [mailto:cwbadie@...]
              > One thing that bothers me about m'Lady Octavia's story is
              > once again we have
              > taken a powerful idea and wrapped it in an obscuring cloud of
              > religion. I
              > think the character realizes the damaging effect it could cause, but
              > considering her background, she was probably using the only
              > vehicle she knew
              > at the time. I did like how she characterized God as something more
              > internal, but past experience made me shiver involuntarily at
              > what could
              > happen if her words are taken out of context and distorted.

              Hmm... I don't see the problem with it. I don't believe it was Butler's
              intention to create a perfect religion or a utopia. I think she tried to
              show that to fight amorality *or* zealotry, you need something more than
              laws or guns. Spirituality is a part of the human condition; I was
              delighted to see a science fiction novel address that aspect, because SF
              skips over it far too often. I believe it's one of the things that we as
              African-Americans can bring to SF; historically we are a deeply spiritual
              people, and recent experience in America has lent a rational flavor to that
              spirituality. In these days of growing extremes on all fronts of American
              religion -- everything from complete secularism/atheism to apocalyptic
              evangelicalism -- I believe we could all use a dose of balance. The
              "Parable" books show one possible way that balance could help to heal many
              of our society's flaws. Isn't that what the "speculative" part of
              speculative fiction is supposed to be about?


              Nora
            • Astromancer
              Touche`...but far too often spirituality is misinterpreted as religious believe. Maybe it is, but I ve always been taught it was something different. I will
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 1, 2004
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                Touche`...but far too often spirituality is misinterpreted as religious believe. Maybe it is, but I've always been taught it was something different. I will admit, Butler's interpretation is a lot closer to how I feel about gods....Nope, not an atheist

                Nora <NJ@...> wrote:
                > From: Cornelius Badie [mailto:cwbadie@...]
                > One thing that bothers me about m'Lady Octavia's story is
                > once again we have
                > taken a powerful idea and wrapped it in an obscuring cloud of
                > religion. I
                > think the character realizes the damaging effect it could cause, but
                > considering her background, she was probably using the only
                > vehicle she knew
                > at the time. I did like how she characterized God as something more
                > internal, but past experience made me shiver involuntarily at
                > what could
                > happen if her words are taken out of context and distorted.

                Hmm... I don't see the problem with it. I don't believe it was Butler's
                intention to create a perfect religion or a utopia. I think she tried to
                show that to fight amorality *or* zealotry, you need something more than
                laws or guns. Spirituality is a part of the human condition; I was
                delighted to see a science fiction novel address that aspect, because SF
                skips over it far too often. I believe it's one of the things that we as
                African-Americans can bring to SF; historically we are a deeply spiritual
                people, and recent experience in America has lent a rational flavor to that
                spirituality. In these days of growing extremes on all fronts of American
                religion -- everything from complete secularism/atheism to apocalyptic
                evangelicalism -- I believe we could all use a dose of balance. The
                "Parable" books show one possible way that balance could help to heal many
                of our society's flaws. Isn't that what the "speculative" part of
                speculative fiction is supposed to be about?


                Nora



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              • Laileana
                No, they have not. Not at all. Everything closes down for Christian holidays-while I have to ask special permission to even be considered. Lois Tracey
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 1, 2004
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                  No, they have not. Not at all. Everything closes down for Christian holidays-while I have to ask special permission to even be considered.
                  Lois

                  "Tracey deMorsella (formerly Tracey Minor)" <tdlists@...> wrote:

                  I was shocked by that statement myself. While The Dominionist politicos
                  have been criticized for embracing violence, war, torture, and political
                  power in a country in which up until now advocated freedom of religion and
                  separation of church and state. Christians themselves, living in America
                  have not been persecuted here for their beliefs live people of other faiths.

                  Tracey

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Laileana [mailto:laileana@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:35 AM
                  To: SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SciFiNoir Lit] Re:RE: Is Butler's "Parable" series coming
                  true? CW: Hmmm...






                  The hatred of good people and the hatred of Christians -- anything vaguely
                  Christian being picked on but other religions being accepted,

                  ****That is totally untrue. My non-christian religion is picked by
                  christians and not at all accepted.

                  Lois




                  Forgive me Father for I am Sin, I am a child of lust and a Witch of the
                  wind....




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                • belsidus2000
                  ...
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                    --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, Oreoblues@a... wrote:
                    > The Bible.

                    <I guess you are referring to the Book of Revelations. It is well
                    settled by Theologians and Biblical Scholars that the book was
                    written (by an unknown author who used the name John) to steel
                    Christians to face the persecution of the Roman Emperors in the First
                    or 2nd Century AD. The events spoken of have already come to pass--

                    I know this will not satisfy anyone looking for armies of 200 million
                    locust riding warriors to gather for the battle of Armageddon--has
                    anyone every wondered how an army that large exceeding the total
                    number of the world's armed forces could even fit in the area?--but
                    there it is--

                    >
                    > Prophecies that Jerusalem would be the cause of much regional
                    fighting in the
                    > Middle East

                    <Jerusalem and the surrounding area of Palestine-- has been the cause
                    of much regional fighting in the Middle East for over 2,000 years--
                    the cause is less theological than it's strategic position along the
                    land route from Asia to Africa--one of the reasons it was chosen by
                    King David for his capitol city--it allowed him to collect tribute
                    from the caravans passing back and forth.

                    In short, to make such a prophecy does not require prophetic gifts,
                    just a knowlege of what has gone before

                    and that the whole world will be concerned and burdened about
                    > that little city, that Jewish folks will be hated by all countries,
                    and that
                    > possibly the end of the world will revolve around Israel and the
                    middle east.
                    > Interesting considering that when the prophets wrote all this stuff
                    Israel was a
                    > small little country no one heard about.

                    <Au contraire--when they wrote it the whole of their world--The
                    Mediterranean world or the world of the Roman Empire, knew all about
                    it--at the time Palestine was a frontline or buffer state in a
                    struggle between the Roman Empire and the Parthians to control the
                    area--one reason why Roman domination was so heavy--

                    In case you think I am gleaning this from some Secular Humanist
                    treatise, it all comes from the Interpreter's Bible>
                    >
                    > The prophecy that the Anti-christ will give everyone a mark --- in
                    their hand
                    > or forehead which they must use to buy or sell. No doubt the bio-
                    chip will
                    > lead to that.

                    <He was referring to economic and religious domination of the
                    Mediterranean World by the Romans ("The Beast" not the Anti Christ)--
                    by the way, the character the "AntiChrist" appears nowhere in the
                    Book of Revelations>
                    >
                    > That the gospel of Jesus Christ would be preached around the world,
                    that
                    > prophets of the gospel would be seen all around the world at the
                    same time telling
                    > this message. Interesting considering that Jesus was a nobody
                    wrongfully
                    > executed by the state and buried in an unmarked grave and that idea
                    of folks all
                    > over the world seeing something the same time happened way before
                    television
                    > was invented.

                    <Again, this John was trying to tell the Christians that their
                    sacrifices would not be in vain, but that their cause would triumph>
                    >
                    > The rise of people calling good evil and calling evil good.

                    <Hardly new>
                    >
                    > The hatred of good people and the hatred of Christians -- anything
                    vaguely
                    > Christian being picked on but other religions being accepted,

                    <This to me is one of the ugliest sides of organized Christianity--
                    everywhere I look there are churches. There are several radio
                    stations devoted only to Christian programming. There are whole Tv
                    networks devoted to Christian programming and such programming is on
                    a good part of every Sunday morning. Bibles are available everywhere
                    for free.

                    Candidates for office trumpet their church membership.
                    Yet some Christians claim they are being persecuted. They do not
                    know what persecution is.>

                    the rise of
                    > abortions (Also a native American end-time prohpecy) Creches,
                    prayers and religious
                    > symbols used to be public for hundreds of years in the US and
                    Canada and
                    > thousands in Europe but now they are forbidden.

                    <You can set up a creche or a religious symbol on any private piece
                    of property you wish. Again, I cannot look in any direction and not
                    see a chruch steeple or a cross.
                    >
                    > If the Bible is fiction, those guys certainly hit the mark!
                    >
                    > -Carole

                    <Prophecies of doom and the end of the world are almost as old as
                    mankind. If we accept the word of the Bible without question we
                    would also have to accept that part that says, "No man knoweth the
                    hour"--but everybody forgets that part.

                    I think this plays into our own senses of mortality--I remember being
                    a child in the 50's and my great grandmother looking earnestly into
                    my eyes and saying--"Son, there will never be another census."

                    Terrified, I went to my preacher grandfather, who just
                    clucked, "Maybe not for her."
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