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Re: Fwd: Project Update #12: 28mm Steampunk Inspired Heavy Weapons &

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  • Grauwolf
    Greetings Terry, Gunner and ALL, ... Well, I don t reckon it would be all that hard to ~ terrify ~ a bunch of collage types. LOL And I know that a STEAM cannon
    Message 1 of 9 , May 17, 2013
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      Greetings Terry, Gunner and ALL,

      > Mythbusters did try and failed. MIT then did a follow up and produced a working steam cannon but were so terrified by the results they refused to public ally release the how to although I believe there is a YouTube video of test firing it <

      Well, I don't reckon it would be all that hard to ~ terrify ~ a bunch of collage types. LOL And I know that a STEAM cannon would work. ANY type of confined and channeled expanding gas (if in sufficient quantity) will push a projectile out of a tube. THAT ain't Rocket Science. Will it make for a feasible weapon??? Especially one that would/could be taken into a battlefield as a self-contained field unit??? Well, . . . I doubt it strongly.

      IMO (as an old Snipe very familiar with the properties, principles and realities of STEAM) you are looking at a whole host of problems.

      1) The Volume and Pressure requirements to push even a small bore artillery projectile any distance would still require a MUCH larger boiler (and its attendant paraphernalia) than I see featured on your piece.
      2) To do so as a rapid fire Gatling type (as I'm assuming again from your multi-barreled image) would require that they be even far more so in order to provide same for any sort of cycle rate. = I'm thinking something close to the size of a locomotive boiler ~ might ~ get ya close for a short spurt.
      3) The Weight of all this (and its Baggage Train of required water, coal, etc tenders) would make for some darn tough hauling over anything short of rails. = Not very field ready.
      4)A Field Piece that requires time for its boilers to build up steam rather than being able to be quickly thrown into action would not find much favor among any battlefield commanders.
      5) Steam is Highly Corrosive. Especially if the water source is not purified and the mineral content is reduced to near nil. (Which, of course, in the field its highly unlikely to happen.) This would be amplified every time a barrel was fired and the bore was left damp and exposed to the air. Which it would be every time, even for the short term between firings of any cycle rate. = This cannon would be Bore Shot in very short order.

      I could go on, but what's the point? Yeah, I KNOW! VSF/Steampunk is all ~ Tekno-Fantasy ~ so NONE of this ever matters, but . . . well, Old Snipes just can't help themselves I guess. LOL

      Just an ~ Aside ~ = Whenever I think to myself about something that I stumble over or dream up >WOW, THAT could be Soooo Darn COOL!< I then start picking it apart. My first thought is = WHY hasn't anybody ever actually done THIS before??? = The Reality often CRUSHES my Fantasy pretty darn quick. <sigh!> This either then forces me to labor even harder at actually making it WORK, or resign myself to accepting the item's PURE Tekno-Fantasy nature. The choice is then = Am I doing Fantasy OR Reality??? And IF I do ~ this ~ as acceptable Fantasy, how far am I willing to let the Fantasy take over my Reality??? . . . One VERY TOUGH Call! . . . And probably the primary reason I've given up on the VSF Steam-Tekno-Fantasy realms. . . .

      But now ~> DIESEL! <~ HECK, you can do darn near ANYTHING with THAT!!!

      (Yeah, Right!) LOL

      Keep It FUN!

      Dan G
    • david schnyer
      just thinking about that baggage train and the logistics of keeping it supplied gives me a headache. even a simple .30 air cooled browning keeps a couple of
      Message 2 of 9 , May 17, 2013
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        just thinking about that "baggage train" and the logistics of keeping it supplied gives me a headache.
        even a simple .30 air cooled browning keeps a couple of guys busy humping ammo, in addition to the gunner and and loader, and that steam gun and its support would be a choice target for opposing artillery, cavalry raiders and plain old pissed off infantry wielding bayonets, so you end up tieing up troops to defend the steamer who could be better employed manning additional gunpowder artillery or assaulting after a barrage. for the navy, that steam could be better employed keeping the ship moving, hopefully avoiding enemy fire.
        "gunner"
        From: Grauwolf <grauwulf@...>
        To: Sci-Fi_Armor@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 11:01 AM
        Subject: [Sci-Fi_Armor] Re: Fwd: Project Update #12: 28mm Steampunk Inspired Heavy Weapons &
         
        Greetings Terry, Gunner and ALL,

        > Mythbusters did try and failed. MIT then did a follow up and produced a working steam cannon but were so terrified by the results they refused to public ally release the how to although I believe there is a YouTube video of test firing it <

        Well, I don't reckon it would be all that hard to ~ terrify ~ a bunch of collage types. LOL And I know that a STEAM cannon would work. ANY type of confined and channeled expanding gas (if in sufficient quantity) will push a projectile out of a tube. THAT ain't Rocket Science. Will it make for a feasible weapon??? Especially one that would/could be taken into a battlefield as a self-contained field unit??? Well, . . . I doubt it strongly.

        IMO (as an old Snipe very familiar with the properties, principles and realities of STEAM) you are looking at a whole host of problems.

        1) The Volume and Pressure requirements to push even a small bore artillery projectile any distance would still require a MUCH larger boiler (and its attendant paraphernalia) than I see featured on your piece.
        2) To do so as a rapid fire Gatling type (as I'm assuming again from your multi-barreled image) would require that they be even far more so in order to provide same for any sort of cycle rate. = I'm thinking something close to the size of a locomotive boiler ~ might ~ get ya close for a short spurt.
        3) The Weight of all this (and its Baggage Train of required water, coal, etc tenders) would make for some darn tough hauling over anything short of rails. = Not very field ready.
        4)A Field Piece that requires time for its boilers to build up steam rather than being able to be quickly thrown into action would not find much favor among any battlefield commanders.
        5) Steam is Highly Corrosive. Especially if the water source is not purified and the mineral content is reduced to near nil. (Which, of course, in the field its highly unlikely to happen.) This would be amplified every time a barrel was fired and the bore was left damp and exposed to the air. Which it would be every time, even for the short term between firings of any cycle rate. = This cannon would be Bore Shot in very short order.

        I could go on, but what's the point? Yeah, I KNOW! VSF/Steampunk is all ~ Tekno-Fantasy ~ so NONE of this ever matters, but . . . well, Old Snipes just can't help themselves I guess. LOL

        Just an ~ Aside ~ = Whenever I think to myself about something that I stumble over or dream up >WOW, THAT could be Soooo Darn COOL!< I then start picking it apart. My first thought is = WHY hasn't anybody ever actually done THIS before??? = The Reality often CRUSHES my Fantasy pretty darn quick. <sigh!> This either then forces me to labor even harder at actually making it WORK, or resign myself to accepting the item's PURE Tekno-Fantasy nature. The choice is then = Am I doing Fantasy OR Reality??? And IF I do ~ this ~ as acceptable Fantasy, how far am I willing to let the Fantasy take over my Reality??? . . . One VERY TOUGH Call! . . . And probably the primary reason I've given up on the VSF Steam-Tekno-Fantasy realms. . . .

        But now ~> DIESEL! <~ HECK, you can do darn near ANYTHING with THAT!!!

        (Yeah, Right!) LOL

        Keep It FUN!

        Dan G

      • Grauwolf
        Greetings Gunner, Terry, and ALL, ... Perfect Point, Gunner! If one really needed to make use of a Steam Cannon (Say, because of a huge shortage of gunpowder.
        Message 3 of 9 , May 18, 2013
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          Greetings Gunner, Terry, and ALL,

          for the navy, that steam could be better employed keeping the ship moving, hopefully avoiding enemy fire. <

          Perfect Point, Gunner!

          If one really needed to make use of a Steam Cannon (Say, because of a huge shortage of gunpowder. ??? I'm reaching here) the best place for it would be one that already has a ready source of large volumes of high pressure steam. = A steam powered ship or land bunker with attached steam plant. 

          Even then, on a ship, the gun would best be served by having its own boiler and system separate from the propulsion systems to prevent hampering the ship's movement just to fire the guns. Of course, this would add greatly to the ship's overall weight and reduced maneuverability for each gun mounted, so a trade-off would must be forced to increase the propulsion systems and/or even reduce any armor. I greatly doubt that you would find a host of ship's captains rushing to command a ship made huge, sluggish, and vulnerable simply by the choice of weapons mounted. 

          Unfortunately, I think that all of this would all hold true again for any VSF Aether/Space type battleships as well. Even equipped with Solar Flash Boilers (if these VSF-ers have such advanced metallurgic skills) you would be dealing with Speed and Mass versus Direction of Travel issues. And those Flash Boilers would make for very vulnerable targets. 

          VSF Steam Powered Tanks would all be faced with these very same issues. 

          Yeah, I'm just not seeing any great benefit here for ANY branch of the military for a Steam Powered Cannon. . . . At least, not without a WHOLE LOT of Tekno-Fantasy running the show.

          So, help us out here, Terry. What do YOU see as the real benefits for a Steam Cannon over a conventional Gunpowder Cannon of any sort??? 
           
          Keep It FUN!
          Dan G

          SCI-FI ARMOR
          --- Because the Multiverse is NOT a friendly place.
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sci-Fi_Armor/
          "Never Give Up! -- Never Surrender!"
        • Terry Sofian
          First off steam ships had a large number of systems besides propulsion that were steam powered and a steam cannon would just be another one and it would use
          Message 4 of 9 , May 19, 2013
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            First off steam ships had a large number of systems besides propulsion that were steam powered and a steam cannon would just be another one and it would use less than some of the others. Rudders were truned with steam and even if a turret was electrically or hydraulically powered steam drove these systems to begin with.
             
            I don't think steam cannons have much place although I do use the Perkins rapid fire steam cannon and the Eads steam mortar in Hive Queen and Country. Their rapid rates of fire make up for their short ranges, up until the end of the American Civil War.
             
            Some of my Venusians and Martians might well use steam cannons if they lack the chemistry to make powder.
             
            Terry
          • Grauwolf
            Greetings Terry and ALL, ... You re right. Ships use steam for more than just getting around. Reduced steam pressure is used in a number of secondary systems
            Message 5 of 9 , May 25, 2013
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              Greetings Terry and ALL,

              > First off steam ships had a large number of systems besides propulsion that were steam powered and a steam cannon would just be another one and it would use less than some of the others. Rudders were truned with steam and even if a turret was electrically or hydraulically powered steam drove these systems to begin with. <

              You're right. Ships use steam for more than just getting around. Reduced steam pressure is used in a number of secondary systems to do everything from powering pumps, heating and purifying water for the showers, to blowing the ship's whistle. However, that doesn't make it an unlimited resource.

              When a ship is designed, ALL of those desired subsystems PLUS those of main propulsion have to be factored into the construction to determine the required size, number and capacity of the boilers that will provide those needs. Then the size and weight of ALL of those subsystems that will provide for the requirements to FEED those boilers get factored in. (Which is a hell of a LOT on their own!) This is where most of the ship's actual tonnage comes from. The older the ship, the greater the tonnage required to meet those ~ BASIC ~ needs. That is why, whenever and wherever possible EVERYTHING gets paired down to the bone. Nothing is allowed to go to waste. Not even the condensate or heat from those secondary subsystems which gets returned to those boilers for reuse.

              Think of a ship's steam plant as being more of closed loop ORGANIC system rather than a purely MECHANICAL unit.

              The BASIC problem with a Steam Cannon is that for every shot fired you loose ALL of the steam, energy, and heat that the boilers are providing. Thus the boilers have to keep drawing on a ~cold~ resource and rebuilding ALL of that pressure and volume to push out those projectiles basically from scratch every single time. Think of it like your home water heater. What happens when you run the shower too long??? Try as it might, the ~ boiler ~, that is your water heater, can not keep up with the demand. If you want longer and Longer showers, you have to put in bigger and BIGGER water heater/boilers. AND you have to FEED those BIGGER water heater/boilers with a LOT MORE water and fuel.

              Thus I would say that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for any ship's steam plant to ever be able to provide for the basic needs of the ship as well as those demands placed on it by a very wasteful Steam Powered Cannon. ESPECIALLY any steam plant designed and built with technology available during the Victorian/Edwardian era.

              > I don't think steam cannons have much place although I do use the Perkins rapid fire steam cannon and the Eads steam mortar in Hive Queen and Country. Their rapid rates of fire make up for their short ranges, up until the end of the American Civil War. <

              I'm familiar with Perkins cannon. =

              http://lateralscience.blogspot.com/2012/07/mr-perkins-extraordinary-steam-gun-of.html

              Extremely interesting for its time! But I would highlight the ~ basic ~ observation made at the end of this GLOWING article. =
              ->Meanwhile cartridge development was moving ahead -thanks to civilian sporting development for the most part. Percussion caps had come into being and the era of the "fixed" cartridge was in sight. These developments, together with the practical difficulties of working with steam under high pressure in the field, canceled out any acceptance of the steam gun. <-

              Though Eads (one of my personal favorite engineers of the era) built and engineered some DARN IMPRESSIVE weapons in his day (His HEAVY DUTY mortar boats among them) I am not familiar with ~ Eads Steam Mortar ~, nor can I find any information about such a weapon. ????

              > Some of my Venusians and Martians might well use steam cannons if they lack the chemistry to make powder. <

              Yeah, I would think that Venusians might just have a tough time dealing with ~ Keeping Their Powder Dry ~ to ever get a real handle on developing the full potential of gunpowder. LOL

              Keep It FUN!

              Dan G
            • david schnyer
              add to dan s remarks, even the various nuclear powered ships and submarines are still steam driven. the reactor is just another way of heating water to make
              Message 6 of 9 , May 25, 2013
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                add to dan's remarks, even the various "nuclear" powered ships and submarines are still steam driven. the reactor is just another way of heating water to make steam. too bad my father isn't around to discuss this, at the end of ww2 he was a first assistant engineer, striking for chief engineer.
                "gunner"

                From: Grauwolf <grauwulf@...>
                To: Sci-Fi_Armor@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:12 AM
                Subject: [Sci-Fi_Armor] Re: Fwd: Project Update #12: 28mm Steampunk Inspired Heavy Weapons &
                 
                Greetings Terry and ALL,

                > First off steam ships had a large number of systems besides propulsion that were steam powered and a steam cannon would just be another one and it would use less than some of the others. Rudders were truned with steam and even if a turret was electrically or hydraulically powered steam drove these systems to begin with. <

                You're right. Ships use steam for more than just getting around. Reduced steam pressure is used in a number of secondary systems to do everything from powering pumps, heating and purifying water for the showers, to blowing the ship's whistle. However, that doesn't make it an unlimited resource.

                When a ship is designed, ALL of those desired subsystems PLUS those of main propulsion have to be factored into the construction to determine the required size, number and capacity of the boilers that will provide those needs. Then the size and weight of ALL of those subsystems that will provide for the requirements to FEED those boilers get factored in. (Which is a hell of a LOT on their own!) This is where most of the ship's actual tonnage comes from. The older the ship, the greater the tonnage required to meet those ~ BASIC ~ needs. That is why, whenever and wherever possible EVERYTHING gets paired down to the bone. Nothing is allowed to go to waste. Not even the condensate or heat from those secondary subsystems which gets returned to those boilers for reuse.

                Think of a ship's steam plant as being more of closed loop ORGANIC system rather than a purely MECHANICAL unit.

                The BASIC problem with a Steam Cannon is that for every shot fired you loose ALL of the steam, energy, and heat that the boilers are providing. Thus the boilers have to keep drawing on a ~cold~ resource and rebuilding ALL of that pressure and volume to push out those projectiles basically from scratch every single time. Think of it like your home water heater. What happens when you run the shower too long??? Try as it might, the ~ boiler ~, that is your water heater, can not keep up with the demand. If you want longer and Longer showers, you have to put in bigger and BIGGER water heater/boilers. AND you have to FEED those BIGGER water heater/boilers with a LOT MORE water and fuel.

                Thus I would say that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for any ship's steam plant to ever be able to provide for the basic needs of the ship as well as those demands placed on it by a very wasteful Steam Powered Cannon. ESPECIALLY any steam plant designed and built with technology available during the Victorian/Edwardian era.

                > I don't think steam cannons have much place although I do use the Perkins rapid fire steam cannon and the Eads steam mortar in Hive Queen and Country. Their rapid rates of fire make up for their short ranges, up until the end of the American Civil War. <

                I'm familiar with Perkins cannon. =

                http://lateralscience.blogspot.com/2012/07/mr-perkins-extraordinary-steam-gun-of.html

                Extremely interesting for its time! But I would highlight the ~ basic ~ observation made at the end of this GLOWING article. =
                ->Meanwhile cartridge development was moving ahead -thanks to civilian sporting development for the most part. Percussion caps had come into being and the era of the "fixed" cartridge was in sight. These developments, together with the practical difficulties of working with steam under high pressure in the field, canceled out any acceptance of the steam gun. <-

                Though Eads (one of my personal favorite engineers of the era) built and engineered some DARN IMPRESSIVE weapons in his day (His HEAVY DUTY mortar boats among them) I am not familiar with ~ Eads Steam Mortar ~, nor can I find any information about such a weapon. ????

                > Some of my Venusians and Martians might well use steam cannons if they lack the chemistry to make powder. <

                Yeah, I would think that Venusians might just have a tough time dealing with ~ Keeping Their Powder Dry ~ to ever get a real handle on developing the full potential of gunpowder. LOL

                Keep It FUN!

                Dan G

              • Max
                Spoken like a machinist mate. Don t forget two turbo generators, four main feed pumps, four booster pumps, two circulating pumps, a high pressure air
                Message 7 of 9 , May 31, 2013
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                  Spoken like a machinist mate. Don't forget two turbo generators, four main feed pumps, four booster pumps, two circulating pumps, a high pressure air compressor for gas ejection for the gun mounts, four fuel oil pumps, four fuel oil heaters, two evaporators (fresh water makers), two DA feed tanks, two sets of air ejectors, the galley kettles, and probably a few more steam users I don't remember. Multiply this times four for a carrier (plus catapults), cruiser or battleship. Lots of steam.

                  Steam still rocks and used for many applications because superheated, high-pressure steam has tremendous power. Not so sure about a steam cannon though. I would think gun powder would work best.

                  Darn. Thinking again. Sorry.

                  Max in MI


                  --- In Sci-Fi_Armor@yahoogroups.com, "Grauwolf" <grauwulf@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Greetings Terry and ALL,
                  >
                  > > First off steam ships had a large number of systems besides propulsion that were steam powered and a steam cannon would just be another one and it would use less than some of the others. Rudders were truned with steam and even if a turret was electrically or hydraulically powered steam drove these systems to begin with. <
                  >
                  > You're right. Ships use steam for more than just getting around. Reduced steam pressure is used in a number of secondary systems to do everything from powering pumps, heating and purifying water for the showers, to blowing the ship's whistle. However, that doesn't make it an unlimited resource.
                  >
                  > When a ship is designed, ALL of those desired subsystems PLUS those of main propulsion have to be factored into the construction to determine the required size, number and capacity of the boilers that will provide those needs. Then the size and weight of ALL of those subsystems that will provide for the requirements to FEED those boilers get factored in. (Which is a hell of a LOT on their own!) This is where most of the ship's actual tonnage comes from. The older the ship, the greater the tonnage required to meet those ~ BASIC ~ needs. That is why, whenever and wherever possible EVERYTHING gets paired down to the bone. Nothing is allowed to go to waste. Not even the condensate or heat from those secondary subsystems which gets returned to those boilers for reuse.
                  >
                  > Think of a ship's steam plant as being more of closed loop ORGANIC system rather than a purely MECHANICAL unit.
                  >
                  > The BASIC problem with a Steam Cannon is that for every shot fired you loose ALL of the steam, energy, and heat that the boilers are providing. Thus the boilers have to keep drawing on a ~cold~ resource and rebuilding ALL of that pressure and volume to push out those projectiles basically from scratch every single time. Think of it like your home water heater. What happens when you run the shower too long??? Try as it might, the ~ boiler ~, that is your water heater, can not keep up with the demand. If you want longer and Longer showers, you have to put in bigger and BIGGER water heater/boilers. AND you have to FEED those BIGGER water heater/boilers with a LOT MORE water and fuel.
                  >
                  > Thus I would say that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for any ship's steam plant to ever be able to provide for the basic needs of the ship as well as those demands placed on it by a very wasteful Steam Powered Cannon. ESPECIALLY any steam plant designed and built with technology available during the Victorian/Edwardian era.
                  >
                  > > I don't think steam cannons have much place although I do use the Perkins rapid fire steam cannon and the Eads steam mortar in Hive Queen and Country. Their rapid rates of fire make up for their short ranges, up until the end of the American Civil War. <
                  >
                  > I'm familiar with Perkins cannon. =
                  >
                  > http://lateralscience.blogspot.com/2012/07/mr-perkins-extraordinary-steam-gun-of.html
                  >
                  > Extremely interesting for its time! But I would highlight the ~ basic ~ observation made at the end of this GLOWING article. =
                  > ->Meanwhile cartridge development was moving ahead -thanks to civilian sporting development for the most part. Percussion caps had come into being and the era of the "fixed" cartridge was in sight. These developments, together with the practical difficulties of working with steam under high pressure in the field, canceled out any acceptance of the steam gun. <-
                  >
                  > Though Eads (one of my personal favorite engineers of the era) built and engineered some DARN IMPRESSIVE weapons in his day (His HEAVY DUTY mortar boats among them) I am not familiar with ~ Eads Steam Mortar ~, nor can I find any information about such a weapon. ????
                  >
                  > > Some of my Venusians and Martians might well use steam cannons if they lack the chemistry to make powder. <
                  >
                  > Yeah, I would think that Venusians might just have a tough time dealing with ~ Keeping Their Powder Dry ~ to ever get a real handle on developing the full potential of gunpowder. LOL
                  >
                  > Keep It FUN!
                  >
                  > Dan G
                  >
                • Grauwolf
                  Greetings Max and ALL, ... LOL! Yeah, I guess us Snipes, who are use to dealing with the REALITIES of steam, just don t make for very good Steampunks. LOL Not
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 1, 2013
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                    Greetings Max and ALL,

                    > Spoken like a machinist mate. Don't forget two turbo generators, four main feed pumps, four booster pumps, two circulating pumps, a high pressure air compressor for gas ejection for the gun mounts, four fuel oil pumps, four fuel oil heaters, two evaporators (fresh water makers), two DA feed tanks, two sets of air ejectors, the galley kettles, and probably a few more steam users I don't remember. Multiply this times four for a carrier (plus catapults), cruiser or battleship. Lots of steam. <

                    LOL! Yeah, I guess us Snipes, who are use to dealing with the REALITIES of steam, just don't make for very good Steampunks. LOL

                    Not that I have anything against Tekno-Fantasies, I LOVE them in fact! BUT I sure do wish that some folks would actually take a few minutes to LOOK at a REAL steam system (preferably one lit-off and running) BEFORE they go on about how such VSF stuff could ~ really work! ~. It might just cut down a bit on all of those steam powered laptop Babbage machines, steam powered autonomous Geisha robots, and even steam powered tanks, walkers, and weapon systems.

                    > Steam still rocks and used for many applications because superheated, high-pressure steam has tremendous power. <

                    No two ways about it. STEAM is some GREAT stuff! . . . it just has its own VERY REAL limits. If ya want to go beyond them . . . well then, I'm sorry, but you're stuck with PURE FANTASY no different than that found within the STAR WARS or any other advanced Tekno-Fantasy universe. Just that VSF uses a lot more funny British accents! LOL

                    Yeah, like I said, Snipes just don't make for very good Steampunks! . . . THAT'S why I switched to DIESEL! LOL

                    Hey, Max!
                    I noticed on one of your older post's signatures ~> Still modeling in MI. <~ So I've been meaning to ask,=

                    What are you modeling???
                    Are you a Scratch & Basher or a Kit Builder???
                    Your own Raw Designs or Scaled Replicas???

                    Just wondering as one old S&Ber who really wishes that he could find the ~ free ~ time to get back to it all!!!

                    Keep It FUN!

                    Dan G
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