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Re: [Sci-Fi_Armor] Fantasy mechs in combat

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  • Grauwolf
    Greetings Thrudd and All, ... Wow! Hhhhmmmm --- So are the ~ ONLY ~ limits that these inventions be “Steam Punkish” or since it is a Fantasy setting are
    Message 1 of 8 , May 2, 2008
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      Greetings Thrudd and All,

      > I'm looking for ideas on what sorts of things they will come up with. <

      Wow! Hhhhmmmm --- So are the ~ ONLY ~ limits that these inventions be “Steam Punkish” or since it is a Fantasy setting are they also allowed to be even further augmented by ~~~ Magik???

      THAT could certainly push the design and construction envelope into a whole different dimension. For Example --- A Guided Missile would be beyond the abilities of Steam Tech. However, if a minor demon/spirit was entrapped in the unit and subject to the will and commands of a Necromancer or Wizard then that limit would vanish. --- I guess that the same could be said for a Mech that was actually a Giant Iron or Steel Golem. That would pretty much eliminate all of those convenient exposed Steam Hose Targets.

      So I guess that the real question would be just how big of a can of worms are you willing to open here??? --- I think that it sure sounds like FUN!

      > Dan suggested Steam blasts and slippery oil would help deter. Slippery oil can be partly countered using spiked gloves and boots. <

      Actually, what they used on those old ACW Ironclads was called “Slush”. Grease Fat from cooking. I think that your Spiked Gloves and Boots would find it even tougher to find a purchase on greased iron plate then plain old soft leather. Climbing Spikes, etc only work on porous  surfaces or ones that they can puncture easily. Such as wood, etc. --- Think of a cat trying to climb a glass door. ~~~ But add a bit of ~ MAGIK ~ a Spider Climb Spell, etc and that limitation vanishes as well.

      >Steam blasts can be countered by making Chinese peasant style hats for protection. <
      > This is countered by thicker clothing <

      One of the things about Steam Punkish type stuff is that most of that Vintage Age Tech was run on rather Low Pressure Steam. (They just didn’t have the materials to build reliable High Pressure Boilers and piping back in the Victorian Age.) LP steam tends to be VERY Wet. And at the same time it is still --- well -- Boiling HOT. Thick clothing would only trap this boiling hot water next to your skin. --- Ever been cooking and slosh a pot of hot water onto your hands while wearing kitchen mittens??? --- Pretty much the same effect.

      Just a minor point of note. --- There was only one case during the entire ACW of a successful boarding action conducted against an ironclad. That was the seizure of the then privateer ironclad ram MANASSAS by Lt. AF Warley who at gunpoint ran off her civilian crew and commandeer the ship for use by the Confederacy. --- Not really a fair example since the civilians thought that they were all on the SAME side at the time! --LOL


      Keep It FUN!

      Dan G


      SCI-FI ARMOR
      --- Because the Multiverse is NOT a friendly place.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sci-Fi_Armor/






      Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
    • thrudd2003
      Hey, sorry about the long wait for a reply, life happens. I am using the 1st ed. AD&D as a system but did not ask for spell ideas for two reasons. 1. this is a
      Message 2 of 8 , May 12, 2008
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        Hey, sorry about the long wait for a reply, life happens.

        I am using the 1st ed. AD&D as a system but did not ask for spell
        ideas for two reasons.

        1. this is a sci-fi armour group, it wouldn't take people long to get
        tired of us talking about the comparative merits of a grease spell vs
        spider climb. If you like fantasy gaming we can talk on GMMastery (or
        if you have a group you'd like to recommend).

        2. Magic is a klunk. A way of overcoming obstacles that you don't
        want to spend too much time dealing with, as such I like fantasy
        gaming and magic. But for detail I like to limit magic as much as
        possible. Magic is for quick decisions on the fly, tech or physics is
        for planning ahead.

        Part of the reason I prefer mechs to golems.

        For instance to see how a steampunk idea can grow it's own
        complications I'll outline an encounter we had in game.

        The players are part of the attacking forces and have (had) four
        zepplins at their disposal. they know that the defenders haven't
        joined up with their gnomes yet and so probably have no air defenses
        they decide to take a zepplin on a flyover for reconnaissance.

        I'd already come up with source of methane (less lift but also less
        volatile than hydrogen), I gave them smallish gasbags to fill and
        declared them to be leaky as all get out so they need to be painted
        with some form of resin on a regular basis, all of this gives us a
        rigid structure filled with large numbers of gasbags covered in
        climbing nets, the outside structure is fairly open to the air to give
        the workers fresh air and avoid asphyxiation. Powered by mechanical
        propellers geared up from muscle power zeppelins are short range
        flyers usable during calm weather. I stole the pneumatic guns from
        "last exile" (I haven't found an english version of the show) so the
        thing is well defended by riflemen who can't be used as assault troops
        since their rifles are dependent upon the onboard compressor. I
        replaced the underslung gondola with walkways and balconies throughout
        the structure. For keeping the thing upright I put water filled
        weight tanks on the bottom to be emptied when they need to rise.

        When the zepplin approached the castle (Thorold) it was unexpecteddly
        met by pegassi mounted soldiers using crossbows. Pegassi are winged
        critters and so have limitations a bit like airplanes, a minimum
        speed, penalty to hit and bonus to defence. The zepplin is a
        comparatively stable firing platform. The Thorold forces quickly
        figured out that they were outgunned and opted to land knights on the
        zepplin. This meant putting the knight on the back of the pegassus,
        climbing above the plane of the zepplin and swooping in under fire and
        having the knight jump off as they go over the railed balconies on
        the top. The knights of course found themselves outnumbered but hit
        on the idea of cutting the gasbags and so brought the thing down.
        Both sides are now counting their dead and coming up with better
        defences and tactics for the future. The mission was an expensive
        partial success for the PCs.

        I am looking for fantasy/steampunk and have introduced the idea of a
        "spark" from "Girl Genius" webcomic, where a person goes mildly insane
        and can invent wild stuff for one shot devices. There is little
        cooperation between the Tech guys and magic guys but they can be
        ordered to help each other if a high up can be convinced to stick her
        neck out.

        A ground assault that results in a boarding action of a mech aided by
        the mechs relatively slow movement compared to a naval ship, and the
        numerous failures of the tech, I expect that there will be a few
        successful ones and then the attrition will get too high.

        Guided missiles sound cool. Strapping bombs on trained animals might
        bee workable too.

        As for steam, I'm thinking of having steam driven compressors to run
        hydraulics. What sort of hydraulic fluid (non-compressible) might be
        available to a quasi dark ages society?



        --- In Sci-Fi_Armor@yahoogroups.com, Grauwolf <grauwulf@...> wrote:
        >
        > Greetings Thrudd and All,
        >
        > > I'm looking for ideas on what sorts of things they will come up
        with. <
        >
        > Wow! Hhhhmmmm --- So are the ~ ONLY ~ limits that these inventions
        be "Steam Punkish" or since it is a Fantasy setting are they also
        allowed to be even further augmented by ~~~ Magik???
        >
        > THAT could certainly push the design and construction envelope
        into a whole different dimension. For Example --- A Guided Missile
        would be beyond the abilities of Steam Tech. However, if a minor
        demon/spirit was entrapped in the unit and subject to the will and
        commands of a Necromancer or Wizard then that limit would vanish. ---
        I guess that the same could be said for a Mech that was actually a
        Giant Iron or Steel Golem. That would pretty much eliminate all of
        those convenient exposed Steam Hose Targets.
        >
        > So I guess that the real question would be just how big of a can
        of worms are you willing to open here??? --- I think that it sure
        sounds like FUN!
        >
        > > Dan suggested Steam blasts and slippery oil would help deter.
        Slippery oil can be partly countered using spiked gloves and boots. <
        >
        > Actually, what they used on those old ACW Ironclads was called
        "Slush". Grease Fat from cooking. I think that your Spiked Gloves and
        Boots would find it even tougher to find a purchase on greased iron
        plate then plain old soft leather. Climbing Spikes, etc only work on
        porous surfaces or ones that they can puncture easily. Such as
        wood, etc. --- Think of a cat trying to climb a glass door. ~~~ But
        add a bit of ~ MAGIK ~ a Spider Climb Spell, etc and that limitation
        vanishes as well.
        >
        > >Steam blasts can be countered by making Chinese peasant style
        hats for protection. <
        > > This is countered by thicker clothing <
        >
        > One of the things about Steam Punkish type stuff is that most of
        that Vintage Age Tech was run on rather Low Pressure Steam. (They
        just didn't have the materials to build reliable High Pressure
        Boilers and piping back in the Victorian Age.) LP steam tends to be
        VERY Wet. And at the same time it is still --- well -- Boiling HOT.
        Thick clothing would only trap this boiling hot water next to your
        skin. --- Ever been cooking and slosh a pot of hot water onto your
        hands while wearing kitchen mittens??? --- Pretty much the same effect.
        >
        > Just a minor point of note. --- There was only one case during the
        entire ACW of a successful boarding action conducted against an
        ironclad. That was the seizure of the then privateer ironclad ram
        MANASSAS by Lt. AF Warley who at gunpoint ran off her civilian crew
        and commandeer the ship for use by the Confederacy. --- Not really a
        fair example since the civilians thought that they were all on the
        SAME side at the time! --LOL
        >
        >
        > Keep It FUN!
        >
        > Dan G
        >
        >
        > SCI-FI ARMOR
        > --- Because the Multiverse is NOT a friendly place.
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sci-Fi_Armor/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
        Try it now.
        >
      • cbitondo
        A steampunk-fantasy siege!? WOW, that is so freaking awesome! If I lived near you, I would SO join up! Anyway, you asked for ideas, so here goes. Warning,
        Message 3 of 8 , May 13, 2008
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          A steampunk-fantasy siege!? WOW, that is so freaking awesome! If I
          lived near you, I would SO join up!

          Anyway, you asked for ideas, so here goes. Warning, this one's long.
          When I think of "steampunk mecha", I immediately picture one thing: a
          six-legged steampunk hybrid between a Star Wars AT-TE and a LOTR
          Oliphant, belching smoke and fire from a smokestack in the back, which
          I call an "Ironclad elephant". Put a turreted steam cannon on its
          back, and put riflemen all around in its war-saddle and in the head.
          You could even put on some of those demon-spirit-guided missiles that
          Grauwolf mentioned. Just off the top of my head, I can think of five
          ways to take one out:
          1) board the Ironclad Elephant and either wreck the mechanics or
          detonate the boiler.
          2) kill the crew and take it over.
          3) Attack and destroy two or more legs on one side. I say two or
          more, because it can still walk with one leg disabled.
          4) shoot it with a steam-cannon or demon-spirit-guided missile,
          penetrate the armor, and hit the boiler or wreck the mechanics.
          Give it to the bad guys to try and break the siege, and let the
          players go "oh ****!" :D
          5) ground pressure! Walking things need relatively firm ground to
          step on, so if it hits deep mud or powder snow, it may become stuck.
          The counter to this is "snow shoes" that enlarge the surface area of
          each foot. Pit traps could also disable an Ironclad Elephant, if you
          know you may be attacked by them.

          You can also kill it with the Ancient Bone-Saber of Zuma-kalis,
          Hackmaster +12, or The Vorpal Sword That Went Snicker-Snack. Well,
          not really. Gnomish inventions are famously unreliable. You could
          probably poke it with a pillow and kill it...

          One other nifty steampunk mecha that I can think of would be
          powered/armored infantry. Trouble is, a single armored infantry is
          too small to fit a boiler to run itself. How do you solve that?
          Build a big mobile boiler, and power a platoon of armored infantry
          with it via 100-foot-long pressure cables. Obviously, if you cut the
          pressure cable or destroy the mobile boiler, you take them out.
          However, the powered/armored infantry are strong, and carry seriously
          scary-big swords and other oversize weapons. I'm picturing something
          like a 10-foot greatsword or a 200lb chain-flail. Yep, ouch-time
          until you run out of steam.

          A few other steam-powered armor that you may consider:
          1) steam-powered ram. A tracked vehicle with a steam-piston for
          battering down doors and walls. If a steam-piston can accelerate a
          multi-ton jet aircraft to 200 knots in under a second, I'd bet it
          could flatten a door or two.
          2) steam-powered APC. A tracked vehicle with gun-ports for infantry
          to shoot through. Kind of like the original land ironclads, except
          smaller and tracked.
          3) steam-powered tank. A tracked vehicle with a steam-cannon,
          ballista, or catapult for wrecking hostile fortifications and
          mechanical contraptions.
          4) steam-powered sapper. A steam-powered tunnel-digging machine for
          digging underneath city walls and other fortifications, or an
          earth-mover for establishing trenches and fortifications. If
          operating underground, use a remote boiler and steam-cable to bring
          power in without burning up all the oxygen.

          If any of you have ever played the "worms" computer games, here are a
          few "biological weapons" worth considering:
          1) Sheep! This cute, furry, huggable critter cheerfully prances
          across the battlefield towards its target, only to violently explode
          on impact. You can also load the sheep into a sheep-apult to clear
          deep trenches, walls, and other obstacles.
          2) Homing Pidgeon! Not the brightest birds around, but useful for
          carrying mail, messages, and high explosives.
          3) Banana Bomb! Anyone who has mixed potassium with water in a chem
          lab knows how violent the reaction can be. And the squishy fruit of
          doom lots of potassium, and the human body has lots of water. A
          slight chemical change to destabilize the potassium in your basic
          banana, and a shipment of humanitarian aid becomes a deadly
          booby-trap. Spontaneous human combustion, anyone?

          -Carl
        • Dan
          Greetings Thrudd, Carl and All, ... tired of us talking about the comparative merits of a…..
          Message 4 of 8 , May 16, 2008
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            Greetings Thrudd, Carl and All,

            > 1. this is a sci-fi armour group, it wouldn't take people long to get
            tired of us talking about the comparative merits of a….. <

            From our Home Page --- " If you like your military mayhem spiced with a big old twist of SCIENCE FICTION or  ~~>> FANTASY <<~~ zestiness, then this just might be the place for you."

            In orderto reflect the vast scope of ALL possible forms of military combat that might be experienced ANYWHERE within the infinite variations of the Multiverse, and as such be of interest to ANY and/or ALL of our Members there has only ever existed ONE Rule -----

            Keep It FUN!

            > 2. Magic is a klunk. A way of overcoming obstacles that you don't
            want to spend too much time dealing with …… <

            When you enter a darkened room do you instinctively grope for a light switch?

            If you had spent your entire life surrounded by Magik and/or supernatural creatures in place of our modern technology would you still be groping for that switch? Or would you equally as instinctively be uttering a Word Of Power or some such instead?

            What we might perceive as  "Klunk" or a shortcut Other Worlders would only consider perfectly normal and natural. In fact, they might even perceive the LACK of magical embellishments and a dependency apon purely Mechanical Technology as being very crude,  inefficient and even vulgar. --- We are all products of our environments and our conditioning.

            Just My Two Bits --- But --- As they say, YOU are the Man In Charge! So we'll play by your guidelines and see just what kind of devilry we can unleash from these --- Infernal Machines!!! <evil grin>
             
            I like Carl's ideas! I think that we should all  go play at his house! --LOL


            Keep It FUN!

            Dan G

            SCI-FI ARMOR
            --- Because the Multiverse is NOT a friendly place.
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sci-Fi_Armor/ 


          • Dan
            Greetings Thrudd and All, ... hydraulics. What sort of hydraulic fluid (non-compressible) might be available to a quasi dark ages society
            Message 5 of 8 , May 17, 2008
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              Greetings Thrudd and All,

              > As for steam, I'm thinking of having steam driven compressors to run
              hydraulics. What sort of hydraulic fluid (non-compressible) might be
              available to a quasi dark ages society <

              Easy answer = Water. Another = Rendered animal or vegetable oils.
              The drawbacks are that all such oils coagulate at colder temperatures.
              Conversely they tend to create extreme fire hazards when heated and/or
              reduced to a spray or mist such as in a pressurized leak. But are
              still workable within limits. --- The hardest part would be in
              manufacturing the high pressure seals required for the pumps and at
              all of the fittings to achieve a truly workable hydraulic machine of
              any real strength. --- Plus the required high grade metals and parts
              with castings lacking in any forms of imperfections that would help
              keep your machines from simply exploding and thus destroying
              themselves and everyone anywhere near them.

              The same pretty much goes for any form of air compressor that would be
              capable of firing even small projectiles for more than a yard or two
              with even a slim chance of penetration. Crossbows would be far more
              preferable in my book. --- Any chance of those Gnomes "inventing"
              gunpowder??? A million and one handy uses for gunpowder!

              > When the zepplin approached the castle (Thorold) it was
              unexpecteddly met by pegassi mounted soldiers using crossbows. <

              As a renowned vampire slayer was often noted to have said. --- "Some
              times, the Old Ways are still the most reliable ones."

              Catapults or trebuchets firing burning balls of pitch at those slow
              moving zeppelins might make things pretty tough on your heroes.
              (Everything burns ~ Methane produces pretty bright green flashes when
              it goes ~ BOOM!) Twist-shooters firing huge bolts would punch some
              pretty mean holes in those unarmored gasbags. --- Or those pegasus
              mounted knights could simply drop inflammables or high corrosives from
              altitudes out of range of the zeppelin's weapons.

              So, Okay, VSF Tech weapons and systems are not very likely in a Quasi
              Dark Ages world. And in some cases might not be even as good as the
              local homegrown stuff. Often even being a poor substitute when you can
              throw in Fantasy Critters as well. In fact VSF Tech isn't always
              possible in Victorian Sci-Fi. ---

              So that leaves us with Steam Tech ~ FANTASY ~ Stuff. For which there
              are just TONS of that stuff all over the net. --- Me, I am real
              partial to Ornithopters and of course Land Ironclads. One of my very
              favorite haunts and resource for BILLIONS of ideas is ----

              Yours In A White Wine Sauce
              http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/

              Another item that you might find of interest is the SPELLJAMMER series
              of AD&D.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelljammer

              Yet another system that already incorporates much of the Fantasy and
              Low Tech warfare that you are interested in can be found in Games
              Workshop's WARHAMMER series.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_Fantasy_Battle


              Are ya sure that you wouldn't settle for a slightly used Ork AFV
              powered by four enslaved trolls running in giant hamster wheels??? It
              gets four miles to the goblin! (Just don't EVER forget to feed them!
              (the trolls - screw the gobs.) It has Cool BIG Spiked Crusher Rollers
              for smoothing out those "rough spots" found on every battlefield. It
              even has a fairly reliable Cyclops 400 Rock Chucker!! But the real
              selling point is the SLEDGE-A-MATIC 6000 GIANT Maul Hammer guaranteed
              to SPLAT anything that gets in its path!!! --- Best of all --- No
              pesky Steam Tech to impede operating efficiencies!!!!


              Keep It FUN!

              Dan G

              SCI-FI ARMOR
              --- Because the Multiverse is NOT a friendly place.
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sci-Fi_Armor/
            • cbitondo
              Are ya sure that you wouldn t settle for a slightly used Ork AFV powered by four enslaved trolls running in giant hamster wheels??? It gets four miles to the
              Message 6 of 8 , May 18, 2008
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                "Are ya sure that you wouldn't settle for a slightly used Ork AFV
                powered by four enslaved trolls running in giant hamster wheels??? It
                gets four miles to the goblin!"

                Hmm, You know how hybrids are all the rage these days. I bet you
                could at least double your fuel economy by adding in a magic-heated
                boiler and triple-expansion steam engine. Just remember that the
                magic crystal feeds on goblins too...

                Seriously, if you consider using both magic and technology in the same
                war machine, you can get much more interesting possibilities. I
                remember one of the simplest ones I thought of a long time ago was
                fireball-enchanted arrows that would explode on impact. Single-use
                only, of course. I must ponder this for a while.

                -Carl

                --- In Sci-Fi_Armor@yahoogroups.com, "Dan" <grauwulf@...> wrote:
                >
                > Greetings Thrudd and All,
                >
                > > As for steam, I'm thinking of having steam driven compressors to run
                > hydraulics. What sort of hydraulic fluid (non-compressible) might be
                > available to a quasi dark ages society <
                >
                > Easy answer = Water. Another = Rendered animal or vegetable oils.
                > The drawbacks are that all such oils coagulate at colder temperatures.
                > Conversely they tend to create extreme fire hazards when heated and/or
                > reduced to a spray or mist such as in a pressurized leak. But are
                > still workable within limits. --- The hardest part would be in
                > manufacturing the high pressure seals required for the pumps and at
                > all of the fittings to achieve a truly workable hydraulic machine of
                > any real strength. --- Plus the required high grade metals and parts
                > with castings lacking in any forms of imperfections that would help
                > keep your machines from simply exploding and thus destroying
                > themselves and everyone anywhere near them.
                >
                > The same pretty much goes for any form of air compressor that would be
                > capable of firing even small projectiles for more than a yard or two
                > with even a slim chance of penetration. Crossbows would be far more
                > preferable in my book. --- Any chance of those Gnomes "inventing"
                > gunpowder??? A million and one handy uses for gunpowder!
                >
                > > When the zepplin approached the castle (Thorold) it was
                > unexpecteddly met by pegassi mounted soldiers using crossbows. <
                >
                > As a renowned vampire slayer was often noted to have said. --- "Some
                > times, the Old Ways are still the most reliable ones."
                >
                > Catapults or trebuchets firing burning balls of pitch at those slow
                > moving zeppelins might make things pretty tough on your heroes.
                > (Everything burns ~ Methane produces pretty bright green flashes when
                > it goes ~ BOOM!) Twist-shooters firing huge bolts would punch some
                > pretty mean holes in those unarmored gasbags. --- Or those pegasus
                > mounted knights could simply drop inflammables or high corrosives from
                > altitudes out of range of the zeppelin's weapons.
                >
                > So, Okay, VSF Tech weapons and systems are not very likely in a Quasi
                > Dark Ages world. And in some cases might not be even as good as the
                > local homegrown stuff. Often even being a poor substitute when you can
                > throw in Fantasy Critters as well. In fact VSF Tech isn't always
                > possible in Victorian Sci-Fi. ---
                >
                > So that leaves us with Steam Tech ~ FANTASY ~ Stuff. For which there
                > are just TONS of that stuff all over the net. --- Me, I am real
                > partial to Ornithopters and of course Land Ironclads. One of my very
                > favorite haunts and resource for BILLIONS of ideas is ----
                >
                > Yours In A White Wine Sauce
                > http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/
                >
                > Another item that you might find of interest is the SPELLJAMMER series
                > of AD&D.
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelljammer
                >
                > Yet another system that already incorporates much of the Fantasy and
                > Low Tech warfare that you are interested in can be found in Games
                > Workshop's WARHAMMER series.
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_Fantasy_Battle
                >
                >
                > Are ya sure that you wouldn't settle for a slightly used Ork AFV
                > powered by four enslaved trolls running in giant hamster wheels??? It
                > gets four miles to the goblin! (Just don't EVER forget to feed them!
                > (the trolls - screw the gobs.) It has Cool BIG Spiked Crusher Rollers
                > for smoothing out those "rough spots" found on every battlefield. It
                > even has a fairly reliable Cyclops 400 Rock Chucker!! But the real
                > selling point is the SLEDGE-A-MATIC 6000 GIANT Maul Hammer guaranteed
                > to SPLAT anything that gets in its path!!! --- Best of all --- No
                > pesky Steam Tech to impede operating efficiencies!!!!
                >
                >
                > Keep It FUN!
                >
                > Dan G
                >
                > SCI-FI ARMOR
                > --- Because the Multiverse is NOT a friendly place.
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sci-Fi_Armor/
                >
              • Dan
                Greetings Carl and All, ... could at least double your fuel economy by adding in a magic-heated boiler and triple-expansion steam engine. Just remember that
                Message 7 of 8 , May 25, 2008
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                  Greetings Carl and All,

                  > Hmm, You know how hybrids are all the rage these days. I bet you
                  could at least double your fuel economy by adding in a magic-heated
                  boiler and triple-expansion steam engine. Just remember that the
                  magic crystal feeds on goblins too... <

                  Yeah, I blame all of my twisted "Hybrid" notions on those ever
                  creative prehistoric adaptive-engineering super geniuses --- The
                  FLINTSTONES. --LOL

                  > Seriously, if you consider using both magic and technology in the
                  same war machine, you can get much more interesting possibilities. <

                  That has always been my point!

                  Like the Flintstones if you live your life surrounded by Supernatural
                  Critters and Magik you would NATURALLY be adapting these things and
                  implementing them into ~ ALL ~ of your creations. I have always found
                  it a bit befuddling as to why Gamers/Writers/etc have no problem
                  accepting the notion of a bunch of talking, fireball spitting,
                  self-animated, glow-in-the-dark, etc, etc Magik Swords, but then bulk
                  at the very concept of even the simplest and most basic magically
                  enhanced or critter augmented MACHINE. --- ?????

                  In truth --- I think the very idea scares the piddle right out of them.

                  What do you All think????



                  Keep It FUN!

                  Dan G

                  SCI-FI ARMOR
                  --- Because the Multiverse is NOT a friendly place.
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sci-Fi_Armor/
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