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  • justmeina
    Hi Jim (and Don, it looks like?...) Looks like a small group so far. Hopefully this will be of interest to more and they ll be joining shortly. Lee.
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 2, 2010
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      Hi Jim (and Don, it looks like?...) Looks like a small group so far. Hopefully this will be of interest to more and they'll be joining shortly.

      Lee.
    • jimcatano
      Hi, Lee. Just you and I so far. I don t know if this is the best vehicle for activism for Diamond Fork. I think the only realistic political action at this
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 7, 2010
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        Hi, Lee. Just you and I so far. I don't know if this is the best vehicle for activism for Diamond Fork. I think the only realistic political action at this point would be to help defend these kids who got busted and anyone who was cited while the sign was up.

        Getting approval for nude soaking up there is going to take some heavy-duty political work.

        Say, do we know each other?

        --- In SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com, "justmeina" <justmeina@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Jim (and Don, it looks like?...) Looks like a small group so far. Hopefully this will be of interest to more and they'll be joining shortly.
        >
        > Lee.
        >
      • Captain Curmudgeon
        ... I wouldn t say that. The group has 20 members, but what they might be willing to do is unknown. I m R.O. Despain, Captain Curmudgeon, known to all my
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 7, 2010
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          At 03:15 PM 1/7/2010, Jim wrote:
          >Hi, Lee. Just you and I so far.

          I wouldn't say that. The group has 20 members, but what they might
          be willing to do is unknown.

          I'm R.O. Despain, Captain Curmudgeon, known to all my family,
          friends, employers, and most of my neighbors as a nudist / naturist /
          naturalist. So, I have no problem with being identified as such wherever.

          > I don't know if this is the best vehicle for activism for Diamond Fork.

          It's a start and it does make it clear what we're hoping for. Maybe
          a good place to post a notice of our existence is

          http://www.soakersforum.com/3/viewforum.php?f=15

          and see if we can get Spike and Shae to join with us. Might also be
          a good idea to get in touch with Bob Morton of NAC, and Janae Bird of
          The Church of the Gathering of What is Real.

          > I think the only realistic political action at this point would be
          > to help defend these kids who got busted and anyone who was cited
          > while the sign was up.

          Maybe. We need to do this at a minimum.


          >Getting approval for nude soaking up there is going to take some
          >heavy-duty political work.

          No doubt. Can we get to know some of the key players for Diamond
          Fork in a non-confrontational way? Forest Service folk and Utah
          County governement types?

          Naturally,
          R.O.
          PS. About to post some links to the SLWeekly and Catalyst accounts
          of the incident.
        • Lee
          Well, it looks like others joined, but excepting R.O. haven t said anything yet. I noticed it was announced to NudeUtah and I see some familiar e-mail id s on
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 9, 2010
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            Well, it looks like others joined, but excepting R.O. haven't said anything yet.  I noticed it was announced to NudeUtah and I see some familiar e-mail id's on the membership list.

             

            I'm not sure what we can do to help those now facing legal challenges, and we probably both know the reality of the cultural and resulting legal climate in this state.

             

            According to Ken, we have to have met at a nude karaoke event, and although I'm not getting a visual..,

             

            Lee.

             

            From: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jimcatano
            Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 3:16 PM
            To: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SaveDiamondFork] Re: Hi

             

             

            Hi, Lee. Just you and I so far. I don't know if this is the best vehicle for activism for Diamond Fork. I think the only realistic political action at this point would be to help defend these kids who got busted and anyone who was cited while the sign was up.

            Getting approval for nude soaking up there is going to take some heavy-duty political work.

            Say, do we know each other?

            --- In SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com, "justmeina" <justmeina@...> wrote:

            >
            > Hi Jim (and Don, it looks like?...) Looks like a small group so far.
            Hopefully this will be of interest to more and they'll be joining shortly.
            >
            > Lee.
            >

            No virus found in this incoming message.
            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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          • andy_the_russell
            I think there are those of us who are willing to jump in on any action that would help out Diamond Fork. We need more voices. Personally, I m not sure how to
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 9, 2010
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              I think there are those of us who are willing to jump in on any action that would help out Diamond Fork. We need more voices. Personally, I'm not sure how to be that voice. I'll tell you that we went up to DF on New Year's Eve, had the place pretty much to ourselves all day, and weren't hassled by law enforcement for our natural enjoyment. Beautiful up there this time of year. I didn't see any garbage around the pools, though most everything was covered in fresh snow.
              I think we all joined this group in hopes that we would catch early word of anything we can do to help.
              -Andy

              --- In SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com, "Lee" <justmeina@...> wrote:
              >
              > Well, it looks like others joined, but excepting R.O. haven't said anything
              > yet. I noticed it was announced to NudeUtah and I see some familiar e-mail
              > id's on the membership list.
              >
              >
              >
              > I'm not sure what we can do to help those now facing legal challenges, and
              > we probably both know the reality of the cultural and resulting legal
              > climate in this state.
              >
              >
              >
              > According to Ken, we have to have met at a nude karaoke event, and although
              > I'm not getting a visual..,
              >
              >
              >
              > Lee.
              >
              >
              >
              > From: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jimcatano
              > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 3:16 PM
              > To: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [SaveDiamondFork] Re: Hi
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi, Lee. Just you and I so far. I don't know if this is the best vehicle for
              > activism for Diamond Fork. I think the only realistic political action at
              > this point would be to help defend these kids who got busted and anyone who
              > was cited while the sign was up.
              >
              > Getting approval for nude soaking up there is going to take some heavy-duty
              > political work.
              >
              > Say, do we know each other?
              >
              > --- In SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:SaveDiamondFork%40yahoogroups.com> , "justmeina" <justmeina@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Jim (and Don, it looks like?...) Looks like a small group so far.
              > Hopefully this will be of interest to more and they'll be joining shortly.
              > >
              > > Lee.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.129/2605 - Release Date: 01/07/10
              > 00:35:00
              >
            • sumoleguy@mail.com
              I am acquainted with the Forest Service Ranger at Spanish Fork. I m not sure how much I can influence agency actions as once it becomes political, decisions
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 10, 2010
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                I am acquainted with the Forest Service Ranger at Spanish Fork. 
                 
                I'm not sure how much I can influence agency actions as once it becomes political, decisions are often made at a higher level.
                 
                I'm certainly willing to give him a call but would like clarification on what we want him to do (other than maintain the status quo).
                 
                Aaron


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Captain Curmudgeon <rod@...>
                To: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, Jan 7, 2010 5:10 pm
                Subject: [SaveDiamondFork] Hi

                 
                At 03:15 PM 1/7/2010, Jim wrote:
                >Hi, Lee. Just you and I so far.

                I wouldn't say that. The group has 20 members, but what they might
                be willing to do is unknown.

                I'm R.O. Despain, Captain Curmudgeon, known to all my family,
                friends, employers, and most of my neighbors as a nudist / naturist /
                naturalist. So, I have no problem with being identified as such wherever.

                > I don't know if this is the best vehicle for activism for Diamond Fork.

                It's a start and it does make it clear what we're hoping for. Maybe
                a good place to post a notice of our existence is

                http://www.soakersf orum.com/ 3/viewforum. php?f=15

                and see if we can get Spike and Shae to join with us. Might also be
                a good idea to get in touch with Bob Morton of NAC, and Janae Bird of
                The Church of the Gathering of What is Real.

                > I think the only realistic political action at this point would be
                > to help defend these kids who got busted and anyone who was cited
                > while the sign was up.

                Maybe. We need to do this at a minimum.

                >Getting approval for nude soaking up there is going to take some
                >heavy-duty political work.

                No doubt. Can we get to know some of the key players for Diamond
                Fork in a non-confrontational way? Forest Service folk and Utah
                County governement types?

                Naturally,
                R.O.
                PS. About to post some links to the SLWeekly and Catalyst accounts
                of the incident.

              • Jim Catano
                ... Like me, they may not be real sure how to proceed from this point. I d like to support these kids who got busted and help them get their charges dismissed
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 10, 2010
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                  Lee wrote:

                  Well, it looks like others joined, but excepting R.O. haven't said anything yet. 

                  Like me, they may not be real sure how to proceed from this point.  I'd like to support these kids who got busted and help them get their charges dismissed or acquitted.  Same for anyone else cited since that Forest Service sign went up over 3 years ago.  Is anyone aware of any?

                  We might be able to help with their defense by providing evidence that the current lewdness law is enforced selectively and unfairly.  For example, women's breasts are not supposed to be visible below a line across the top of the areola.   Well, just about any bikini (and many formally dresses) violate that rule by exosing the inside our outside edge of the breast.  Many male and female bathing suits (especially those used in competitive swimming) violate the law about exposing parts of the buttocks.  If we could assemble some photographs of such "offenses" happening without legal consequence right here in Utah, it could help in the defense of those cases.

                  The bigger problem of getting the lewdness law changed is a much tougher nut to crack.  I'm not sure exactly how to go about it.

                  I guess the first thing to do would be to get all naturists talking.  On this list so far, do we have representation for all the known Utah naturist groups?  Feel free to speak up, everyone. 

                  According to Ken, we have to have met at a nude karaoke event

                  That's probably it.  I'm sure we'd recognize each other.  Jim

                • Jim Catano
                  ... That s what I d hoped this list would become....a rallying point for such action. I d certainly be willing to turn over ownership of the list to someone
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 10, 2010
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                    Andy wrote:

                    I think there are those of us who are willing to jump in on any action that would help out Diamond Fork.

                    That's what I'd hoped this list would become....a rallying point for such action.  I'd certainly be willing to turn over ownership of the list to someone with more of an activist bent than I have.  Anyone out there want to "interview?" 

                    We need more voices. Personally, I'm not sure how to be that voice.

                    That's the same dilemma I face.   

                    I'll tell you that we went up to DF on New Year's Eve, had the place pretty much to ourselves all day, and weren't hassled by law enforcement for our natural enjoyment.

                    Do most of the cases of people getting harassed at DF happen at night when the police are looking for underage drinking and drugs?  Maybe I've just been lucky because I only spent one night up there and it was mostly in a tent.  Is that when the busts are happening? 

                    I didn't see any garbage around the pools

                    I think most of the crap I've hauled out of DF (many bagsfull over the years) was left there by the youthful overnight contingent. 


                    I think we all joined this group in hopes that we would catch early word of anything we can do to help.

                    I've got some Google Alerts set in hopes of picking up anything new in the press or websites.  Is any here personally linked to any of the court proceedings?   Jim

                  • Jim Catano
                    ... Which one? Jones? ... If it s Jones, he s told me he is just going to conform to Utah law and FS policy which, since the North and South units have merged
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 10, 2010
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                      I am acquainted with the Forest Service Ranger at Spanish Fork. 
                      Which one?  Jones?

                       
                      I'm not sure how much I can influence agency actions as once it becomes political, decisions are often made at a higher level.
                      If it's Jones, he's told me he is just going to conform to Utah law and FS policy which, since the North and South units have merged into one unit, is going to include an anti-nudity policy.  Before, they didn't have one. 
                       

                       
                      I'm certainly willing to give him a call but would like clarification on what we want him to do (other than maintain the status quo).
                      Sure, find out what you can.  

                    • Lee
                      From: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Catano Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:32 AM To:
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 10, 2010
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                        From: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Catano
                        Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:32 AM
                        To: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [SaveDiamondFork] Re: Hi

                         
                        > Like me, they may not be real sure how to proceed from this point.

                        That seems to be the big question. I haven't a clue.

                        > I'd like to support these kids who got busted and help them get their
                        charges
                        > dismissed or acquitted.  Same for anyone else cited since that Forest
                        Service
                        > sign went up over 3 years ago.  Is anyone aware of any?

                        I am not. I do not personally know anyone involved at any point.

                        > We might be able to help with their defense by providing evidence
                        > that the current lewdness law is enforced selectively and unfairly.

                        I've long thought that generally one way to deal with the lewdness law is to
                        get it declared or at least seen as essentially "unenforceable" as written.
                        The legal system (and our culture) likes absolutes. They like statutes that
                        are written in absolute terms. The problem is you really can't write an
                        absolute anti-nudity statute that works. I've long wondered what would
                        happen if somebody, maybe even staged, were to complain about somebody else
                        being nude in a "PUBLIC locker room" (for example) and have that taken
                        through the courts. Of course one of the risks would be that the courts
                        would see through it and decline to let it proceed. I suspect if/when they
                        realized they'd be reluctant to let such challenges proceed and be heard.
                        My sense was that when I was charged with lewdness for being nude inside my
                        own house that this was the reason why they didn't pursue it very far. I
                        don't think they really believed that I was connected with organized
                        naturism (or that such organizations even actually existed - such is the
                        culture we're dealing with here) or was really any threat that way, but just
                        in case, they also didn't think it was worth the risk and bother. Had it
                        gone to trial, they would have been in for a bit of a surprise, I think. As
                        it was, it went away on a stupid diversion agreement - which if I'd read, I
                        would have not agreed to, but I was too out of it to read it, R.O., who
                        attended the hearing to support me, told me what it said when it was over -
                        I was way too out of it - and my attorney representation was quite frankly
                        SHITTY (another issue in Utah - it's hard to find GOOD representation for
                        these things). Still, a diversion agreement basically just means the charge
                        hangs out there for a period of time prior to and/or without even a plea or
                        anything else, and if nothing in the agreement is violated, then the charge
                        is simply dismissed. It my case, it has long since been dismissed. I
                        haven't yet, however, gone through the hassle of getting the record of the
                        charge expunged. If I were to get laid off and were looking for work, for
                        example, that's probably the first thing I'd have to actually get done as I
                        wouldn't want it hanging over me during a job search (and even though
                        they're not supposed to be able to use that against me anyway, but we all
                        know about those realities). I'd also regret having the record of the
                        charge still there if I were to be charged again for some reason, I'm sure.

                        Along these lines, it was my understanding from attorney Andy McCullough
                        that he felt like he had punched a hole in Utah's lewdness ordinance once by
                        taking a case to the Utah supreme court involving a couple that had sex
                        outdoors (and I fully realize, that our culture is more likely to understand
                        that than why somebody would take their clothes off, just because they
                        wanted to). Apparently the issue was that nobody saw them, except for the
                        cop that charged them, and he had to go to extraordinary measures to see
                        them. And, the supreme court decided that although that was clearly
                        "public", that was NOT the INTENT of the ordinance, as they had a
                        "reasonable expectation of privacy" (and hence the reason I used those words
                        when I first posted a response to the article). I can certainly see the
                        application to those charged at Diamond Fork. Perhaps, if we knew any of
                        them, or had a way to encourage them, they should contact Andy. In my case,
                        I did not use Andy as my attorney because one of his main things is
                        defending "adult businesses" and I doubted that would work well in my favor
                        given that the issue did involve minors (which in my mind is more
                        naturist-style nudity - "adults only" nudity, is easily construed as
                        something else and treated accordingly - and we know the culture that says
                        whatever goes on between "consenting adults" is a "whatever").

                        > The bigger problem of getting the lewdness law changed is a much tougher
                        nut to crack.
                        > I'm not sure exactly how to go about it.

                        Noting my previous comments, neither am I. I was told by several attorneys,
                        mostly outside the state, that in my case, if I had taken it all the way to
                        trial (and probably beyond), it could have potentially set a precedent that
                        naturism in one's own house (or probably generally in a private setting and
                        in my case/situation around one's own kids) was not illegal in Utah. The
                        problem was that they all thought the case might have to go to a regional
                        court, beyond the state, in order to finally get enough related precedent to
                        win it - and the estimated legal costs for that were at least 6 figures (not
                        to mention, though not likely, I potentially could have found myself in jail
                        awaiting the appeal(s)). This may be a part of the reality that we're
                        facing - MONEY. The reality is that our legal system is built on BIG MONEY,
                        and "justice" is for sale - to the highest bidder. It seems to be very hard
                        to find ANYONE (judges or anyone else) in the legal system who responds much
                        to reason - they respond to MONEY. The only exception I can think of to
                        that, and as was recently suggested, is they may also respond to public
                        pressure - of course they respond to that because it might threaten their
                        cozy jobs (so again MONEY). I think it would be hard in the state of Utah
                        to apply much public pressure. The public would not support us, to put it
                        mildly. It seems to me, that the public, especially here, often can't seem
                        to understand how we can shower in a locked private bathroom without being
                        embarrassed (the eyes roll). Just go to a public locker room and see their
                        behavior, for example. Many of the younger crowd won't even ENTRER a locker
                        room any more - and if/when they do, if they're aren't private changing
                        stalls they WON'T change clothes, and they surely WON'T shower. I have
                        actually been threatened myself - twice - for being nude in a public locker
                        room. Once, by an apparent recently returned Mormon missionary who said
                        "You are going to get charged for being nude in here like that" (at the
                        time, I was too much in shock to even reply to him - it had never even
                        occurred to me - it was a locker room, for hell's sake - only after did I
                        realize that there's no exception in the law for a "PUBLIC locker room").
                        And, a second time by a teenager who approached me while I was drying my
                        hair (nude, of course) and said "That offends me". In my best pretend
                        confused look I replied "What offends you?". And he replied "You, nude like
                        that.". I replied, "Oh, that, well you'll get used to it.". I thought his
                        friend that I guess was there for his moral support was going to come apart
                        laughing so hard.

                        > I guess the first thing to do would be to get all naturists talking.

                        Probably, and that may be a trick in and of itself. It does make sense to
                        me as a reasonable starting point. I don't think historically/traditionally
                        we've been very united. We can't seem to agree much on what to unite over.
                        One would think that would be possible, but it certainly hasn't seemed to
                        happen so far.

                        > On this list so far, do we have representation for all the known Utah
                        naturist groups?

                        What do you consider a group? That in and of itself could be an interesting
                        discussion. I'm not convinced there's a great deal of commonality behind
                        the base motives for everyone behind exactly WHY we get naked. Not that I
                        don't suppose even TNS, for example, sometimes struggles with the same
                        issue. I've certainly noticed that the "sexier" nudity gets, the more
                        likely it is to be financially viable (and with all the rewards that go
                        along with that, which are many) - and that seems to be true anywhere,
                        including the historically traditional mainstay of naturism - Florida. And,
                        like I've already said, I think MONEY is often at the core of most things in
                        our little piece of the world (or the USA in general).

                        > I'm sure we'd recognize each other.

                        We very well may (but maybe not with clothes on? ;) - I get that all the
                        time, I'm incognito with clothes on ;))

                        Lee.
                      • Lee
                        From: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Catano Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:45 AM To:
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jan 10, 2010
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                          From: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Catano
                          Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:45 AM
                          To: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [SaveDiamondFork] Re: Hi

                          > Do most of the cases of people getting harassed at DF happen
                          > at night when the police are looking for underage drinking
                          > and drugs?  Maybe I've just been lucky because I only spent
                          > one night up there and it was mostly in a tent. 
                          > Is that when the busts are happening? 

                          That's an interesting question.

                          Nearly all of my visits to Diamond Fork were years ago, when the lower road
                          was closed - which made for much less traffic (people) there and much more
                          control over where those people were coming from and going to. My "routine"
                          became to post nudity warning signs on the way in, and be relatively more
                          cautious (hiking nude, I DON'T hike with clothes on, but I DO carry and use
                          a wrap when necessary) hiking in than hiking out. I was discrete about it,
                          but I remember walking out by a family wearing BYU t-shirts once and they
                          were relatively friendly about it, considering. I supposed they had been
                          warned.

                          As a general rule, I also only visited Diamond Fork during the day and
                          during the week. By and large, it was BIG TIME nudity accepting during my
                          visits, often shockingly so. I think the only time I saw anyone potentially
                          "official" there was one time I saw a forest service truck parked in the
                          parking lot - it was the only other vehicle in the parking lot, and the only
                          other person I saw anywhere in the area was soaking nude at the springs.

                          Still, I realized that I don't really like hot water much (I'd MUCH rather
                          hike) and the area (or hot springs generally) was simply too much of a
                          magnet for law enforcement. I felt safer simply hiking in the middle of
                          nowhere where NOBODY was and/or where I could see whoever might be there
                          coming.

                          Lee.
                        • Lee
                          From: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Catano Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:49 AM To:
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jan 10, 2010
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                            From: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Catano
                            Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:49 AM
                            To: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [SaveDiamondFork] Hi

                            > If it's Jones, he's told me he is just going to conform to Utah law and
                            > FS policy which, since the North and South units have merged into one
                            > unit, is going to include an anti-nudity policy.  Before, they didn't
                            > have one. 

                            That's a sad development. I was liking that the South unit didn't have an
                            anti-nudity policy.

                            It's a sad trend, and we seem to be losing much more often than winning :-(.

                            Lee.
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