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Trial of nude soakers

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  • jimcatano
    Does anyone know the details about when the kids who were arrested for nude soaking at DF is happening? I heard it was this month. I m wondering what we can
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 5, 2010
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      Does anyone know the details about when the kids who were arrested for nude soaking at DF is happening? I heard it was this month. I'm wondering what we can do to support their defense.
    • orcoba_2007
      I ve made a couple of attempts to send a reply to this thread via email, bit it ain t happening for some reason; I ll try posting here directly instead... To
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 9, 2010
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        I've made a couple of attempts to send a reply to this thread via email, bit it ain't happening for some reason; I'll try posting here directly instead...

        To my knowledge, at least one of them has already agreed to a plea bargain and accepted a charge of disorderly conduct and a $100 fine, in lieu of facing an expensive court battle over the much more serious charge of lewdness. I certainly can't blame them (and I wouldn't be surprised if that had been part of the prosecution's strategy to begin with); unfortunately though, without every one of the defendants' willingness to stand up and fight the charges altogether, it tends to undermine the effectiveness of any of the remaining individuals to put up a cohesive defense and have all charges dismissed. When news of the incident broke, I had hoped to round up everyone charged and work on a battle plan, but I only managed to establish contact with three of them. 
         
        Utah is a tough state for naturists and nude soakers, obviously...but my hope is that along with  a dedicated local effort involving individuals and grass-roots groups, such as this Yahoo forum, a push for changes  can be made gather momentum...a cause which NAC is committed to being a part of.

        Don Zirbel
        Board of Directors,
        Naturist Action Committee
        www.naturistaction.org 
         


        --- In SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com, "jimcatano" <jimcatano@...> wrote:
        >
        > Does anyone know the details about when the kids who were arrested for nude soaking at DF is happening? I heard it was this month. I'm wondering what we can do to support their defense.
        >

      • Lee
        Well, I m glad you ve made some direct contact. That s good and good to know. And no, I m not surprised by the plea bargain either - and no doubt it was part
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 9, 2010
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          Well, I'm glad you've made some direct contact.  That's good and good to know.

           

          And no, I'm not surprised by the plea bargain either - and no doubt it was part of the strategy, it's a part of what they do, and following a 6 MONTH legal battle of my own over a TRAFFIC  TICKET in Utah County that they had absolutely NO CHANCE on from day one (the ordinance clearly said I had to be pulling a trailer and I was driving an old econobox that could never pull a trailer even if it tried), I'm not at all surprised at any tactic that group would use.

           

          Let me know how/if I can help,

           

          Lee.

           

          From: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of orcoba_2007
          Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:39 AM
          To: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SaveDiamondFork] Re: Trial of nude soakers

           

           

          I've made a couple of attempts to send a reply to this thread via email, bit it ain't happening for some reason; I'll try posting here directly instead...

          To my knowledge, at least one of them has already agreed to a plea bargain and accepted a charge of disorderly conduct and a $100 fine, in lieu of facing an expensive court battle over the much more serious charge of lewdness. I certainly can't blame them (and I wouldn't be surprised if that had been part of the prosecution's strategy to begin with); unfortunately though, without every one of the defendants' willingness to stand up and fight the charges altogether, it tends to undermine the effectiveness of any of the remaining individuals to put up a cohesive defense and have all charges dismissed. When news of the incident broke, I had hoped to round up everyone charged and work on a battle plan, but I only managed to establish contact with three of them. 
           
          Utah is a tough state for naturists and nude soakers, obviously...but my hope is that along with  a dedicated local effort involving individuals and grass-roots groups, such as this Yahoo forum, a push for changes  can be made gather momentum...a cause which NAC is committed to being a part of.

          Don Zirbel
          Board of Directors,
          Naturist Action Committee
          www.naturistaction.org 
           


          --- In SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com, "jimcatano" <jimcatano@...> wrote:

          >
          > Does anyone know the details about when the kids who were arrested for
          nude soaking at DF is happening? I heard it was this month. I'm wondering what we can do to support their defense.
          >

          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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        • jimcatano
          Thanks, Don, for all your extra efforts in behalf of our state. I hate to see people who are completely innocent cop a plea out of fear or for convenience. I
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 9, 2010
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            Thanks, Don, for all your extra efforts in behalf of our state.

            I hate to see people who are completely innocent cop a plea out of fear or for convenience. I think it's totally unnecessary as I can't see these kids getting convicted by any judge or jury with that sign having been there especially since it was at night and they were underwater. They weren't even technically "nude" if they weren't visible by the public.

            I bet they could have even successfully counter sued for damages from police harassment and entrapment (those cops KNEW that sign had been there for years) or have sued the Forest Service for posting misleading information. This is like some section of road posted at 55 mph where the local cops hand out tickets telling people they should have know the road was only built for 45.

            I've made several attempts to contact the defendants to volunteer our support and help, but they have not responded. Since the outcome of the trial will really have little impact on our ability to use the springs without harassment, however, I've given up on trying to help them.

            Some really fun things could have been brought up at the proceedings. Go to any swimming pool you can find people in violation of Utah's lewdness laws which state, for example, that no part of the female breast below the areola can be exposed, but just look at how many swim tops expose the inside or outside edge of the breast all the way down. Many high school prom dresses do, too. The law states that no part of the buttocks can be visible. Even some men's swimsuits violate that. Just go to a swim competition.

            In short, there's a lot that could have been done here, but apparently these kids don't think they need help from the naturists or view it as a liability. Too bad we can't all pull together more often.

            I'd love to see Utah enact some sane policies (like allowing nude soaking on the even days of the month) or after hours, but the likelihood of that happening is zilch from my perspective. That's doubly true in Utah County (note the double Utah) as it's the most politically conservative in the nation and the most heavily dominated by a religious majority with some very uptight views on modesty. Salt Lake City looks like a bastion of liberalism in comparison.

            Oh, well. We tried. Thanks again. Jim
          • Jim Catano
            Sorry, Don. I don t know my Yahoo didn t inform me that posts were pending to approve. I just posted the following there: ===== Thanks, Don, for all your
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 9, 2010
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              Sorry, Don.  I don't know my Yahoo didn't inform me that posts were pending to approve.  I just posted the following there:
              =====

              Thanks, Don, for all your extra efforts in behalf of our state.

              I hate to see people who are completely innocent cop a plea out of fear or for convenience.  I think it's totally unnecessary as I can't see these kids getting convicted by any judge or jury with that sign having been there especially since it was at night and they were underwater.  They weren't even technically "nude" if they weren't visible by the public. 

              I bet they could have even successfully counter sued for damages from police harassment and entrapment (those cops KNEW that sign had been there for years) or have sued the Forest Service for posting misleading information.  This is like some section of road posted at 55 mph where the local cops hand out tickets telling people they should have know the road was only built for 45. 

              I've made several attempts to contact the defendants to volunteer our support and help, but they have not responded.  Since the outcome of the trial will really have little impact on our ability to use the springs without harassment, however, I've given up on trying to help them.

              Some really fun things could have been brought up at the proceedings.  Go to any swimming pool you can find people in violation of Utah's lewdness laws which state, for example, that no part of the female breast below the areola can be exposed, but just look at how many swim tops expose the inside or outside edge of the breast all the way down.  Many high school prom dresses do, too.  The law states that no part of the buttocks can be visible.  Even some men's swimsuits violate that.  Just go to a swim competition. 

              In short, there's a lot that could have been done here, but apparently these kids don't think they need help from the naturists or view it as a liability.  Too bad we can't all pull together more often. 

              I'd love to see Utah enact some sane policies (like allowing nude soaking on the even days of the month) or after hours, but the likelihood of that happening is zilch from my perspective.  That's doubly true in Utah County (note the double Utah) as it's the most politically conservative in the nation and the most heavily dominated by a religious majority with some very uptight views on modesty.  Salt Lake City looks like a bastion of liberalism in comparison. 

              Oh, well.  We tried.  Thanks again.  Jim

              On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:38 AM, orcoba_2007 <orcoba@...> wrote:
               

              I've made a couple of attempts to send a reply to this thread via email, bit it ain't happening for some reason; I'll try posting here directly instead...

              To my knowledge, at least one of them has already agreed to a plea bargain and accepted a charge of disorderly conduct and a $100 fine, in lieu of facing an expensive court battle over the much more serious charge of lewdness. I certainly can't blame them (and I wouldn't be surprised if that had been part of the prosecution's strategy to begin with); unfortunately though, without every one of the defendants' willingness to stand up and fight the charges altogether, it tends to undermine the effectiveness of any of the remaining individuals to put up a cohesive defense and have all charges dismissed. When news of the incident broke, I had hoped to round up everyone charged and work on a battle plan, but I only managed to establish contact with three of them. 
               
              Utah is a tough state for naturists and nude soakers, obviously...but my hope is that along with  a dedicated local effort involving individuals and grass-roots groups, such as this Yahoo forum, a push for changes  can be made gather momentum...a cause which NAC is committed to being a part of.

              Don Zirbel
              Board of Directors,
              Naturist Action Committee
              www.naturistaction.org 


               


              --- In SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com, "jimcatano" <jimcatano@...> wrote:
              >
              > Does anyone know the details about when the kids who were arrested for nude soaking at DF is happening? I heard it was this month. I'm wondering what we can do to support their defense.
              >

            • orcoba_2007
              Not a problem Jim...actually I thought it was a Yahoo glitch, since according to the home page the settings for this group indicate that messages are not
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 9, 2010
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                Not a problem Jim...actually I thought it was a Yahoo glitch, since according to the home page the settings for this group indicate that messages are not moderated and go straight to the board.

                Here in Oregon, we've had a loosely similar issue with a popular historic hot springs (Bagby) located within the Mt Hood National Forest. Recently, after decades of traditional nude use by soakers and well-tolerated by forest service officials, the Forest Service suddenly and quietly introduced a new policy making nudity a citable offense at the springs, citing an old Forest Order from 1992.  Apparently the change had been prompted by a couple of incidents involving lewd behavior, the official details of which are suspiciously vague, and a supposed increase in complaints from "family" users. (We educated them on the error of making a  "family" versus "nude" distinction.) Fortunately I live not too far from the hot springs and Forest Service headquarters, and I have been representing NAC in ongoing meetings and discussions with the Forest Service regarding a more amicable solution, and so far they are  on board and actually appreciative of the help. (I had put together a map of the springs which turned out to be far more detailed and current than the Forest Service's.) We are in the process of developing and proposing some alternatives to outright prohibition of nude use, including vegetative and structural screening and segregation of tubs to designate nude and textile use. The Forest Service in the meantime has agreed to allow continued traditional nude use pending a long-term resolution over a new policy. It would be nice if Utah County would take note of cooperative relationships such as this, but then again, Oregon law is much more naturist-friendly than Utah's, and it would appear that Utah County officials have their heads too far up their hind quarters to actually see much light anyway.

                The fight isn't over though. We're actively chewing over what can be done on a grassroots level to improve the long-term big picture for Utah naturism. I appreciate the dedication and assistance that folks from this group have already shown and I hope it continues to build. It often takes a setback such as Diamond Fork to ignite a serious call for change.

                Don
                Naturist Action Committee 

                 

                --- In SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com, Jim Catano <jimcatano@...> wrote:

                >
                > Sorry, Don. I don't know my Yahoo didn't inform me that posts were pending  to approve.

              • Lee
                From: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of orcoba_2007 Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:19 PM To:
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 9, 2010
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                  From: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of orcoba_2007
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:19 PM
                  To: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [SaveDiamondFork] Re: Trial of nude soakers

                   
                  > Not a problem Jim...actually I thought it was a Yahoo glitch,
                  > since according to the home page the settings for this group
                  > indicate that messages are not moderated and go straight to
                  > the board.

                  I moderate or have moderated a number of yahoo groups. Yahoo probably
                  flagged it as spam, based on some bizarre incantation (never figured out
                  what that spell is) which overrides the group settings.

                  > Here in Oregon, we've had a loosely similar issue with a
                  > popular historic hot springs (Bagby) located within the
                  > Mt Hood National Forest.

                  I visited Bagby, once (and wrote about that already and N-magazine published
                  it ( http://www.naturistsociety.com/magazine/detail.jsp?id=520 ), so no need
                  to repeat any of that here). I knew there was some legal ruckus there.
                  Good to know the details. Perhaps excepting the absence of much sun (I like
                  sun ;) it was a nice visit.

                  > It would be nice if Utah County would take note of cooperative
                  relationships
                  > such as this,

                  Wouldn't it though.

                  > but then again, Oregon law is much more naturist-friendly than Utah's,

                  No doubt about that. And although I'm not sure Utah law is exactly
                  "naturist-unfriendly" so much as simply "naturist ignorant" or maybe even
                  more like "naturist stupid". You probably heard the sheriff's
                  representative talking to Fox13 describing it as "exposing yourself".
                  That's the mentality here. They can't, or won't grasp that the whole
                  connotation of "exposing oneself" has NOTHING to do with anything I espouse,
                  practice or believe in (or consider naturism to be). (to say nothing of how
                  on earth you somehow turn a group of people skinny-dipping in a typically
                  not very clear watered hidden pool, in the middle of nowhere, AT NIGHT into
                  "exposing oneself")

                  > and it would appear that Utah County officials have their heads too far
                  > up their hind quarters to actually see much light anyway.

                  Indeed. And that is/will be quite an obstacle, I fear.

                  > The fight isn't over though.

                  I suppose it never will be, and although this is a pretty serious setback in
                  my mind, and despite the fact I personally very seldom went to Diamond Fork
                  anyway. Diamond Fork seemed to be about the last hold out here for this
                  sort of thing, and now that one has probably pretty much gone away too :-(.
                  (if you can get by the Utah County Sheriff's department, can you get by Fox
                  13's hidden cameras? - the eyes roll)

                  > We're actively chewing over what can be done on a grassroots level to
                  improve the
                  > long-term big picture for Utah naturism.

                  I want to help, if there can be something that can actually help. There are
                  a whole lot of folks in this state that need to seriously re-think things
                  (as evidenced by a state legislature that UNANIMOUSLY passes a resolution
                  making showering a public locker room a felony - not a single dissenting
                  vote for such idiocy).

                  > I appreciate the dedication and assistance that folks from this group have
                  already shown and I hope it continues to build.

                  Me too, and although I know there are some serious philosophical issues to
                  deal with that have caused disunity and issues even among those who claim to
                  be on the nude side of the cause.

                  I suppose the paranoid in me also needs to mention the reality that this
                  issue may have surfaced far enough and this yahoo group is wide open and its
                  presence posted on public news articles and is at least potentially, if not
                  even likely, infiltrated by those who would see things very differently.

                  > It often takes a setback such as Diamond Fork to ignite a serious call for
                  change.

                  It's a big setback, I hope it ignites something. It should be apparent that
                  what we've been doing isn't working.

                  Lee.
                • Popeye & Bangles
                  Lee - ...as evidenced by a state legislaturethat UNANIMOUSLY passes a resolution making showering a public locker room a felony - not a single dissenting vote
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 9, 2010
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                    Lee -

                    ...as evidenced by a state legislature that UNANIMOUSLY passes a resolution
                    making showering a public locker room a felony - not a single dissenting
                    vote for such idiocy...

                    I am compiling a list of "stupid legislature tricks" to send to my naturist friends in The Netherlands, and this seems to more than qualify.  Do you know when was this was passed?

                    - Nkdmn N. Cps



                    From: Lee <justmeina@...>
                    To: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 8:31:54 PM
                    Subject: RE: [SaveDiamondFork] Re: Trial of nude soakers

                     

                    From: SaveDiamondFork@ yahoogroups. com
                    [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of orcoba_2007
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:19 PM
                    To: SaveDiamondFork@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: [SaveDiamondFork] Re: Trial of nude soakers

                     

                    > Not a problem Jim...actually I thought it was a Yahoo glitch,
                    > since according to the home page the settings for this group
                    > indicate that messages are not moderated and go straight to
                    > the board.

                    I moderate or have moderated a number of yahoo groups. Yahoo probably
                    flagged it as spam, based on some bizarre incantation (never figured out
                    what that spell is) which overrides the group settings.

                    > Here in Oregon, we've had a loosely similar issue with a
                    > popular historic hot springs (Bagby) located within the
                    > Mt Hood National Forest.

                    I visited Bagby, once (and wrote about that already and N-magazine published
                    it ( http://www.naturist society.com/ magazine/ detail.jsp? id=520 ), so no need
                    to repeat any of that here). I knew there was some legal ruckus there.
                    Good to know the details. Perhaps excepting the absence of much sun (I like
                    sun ;) it was a nice visit.

                    > It would be nice if Utah County would take note of cooperative
                    relationships
                    > such as this,

                    Wouldn't it though.

                    > but then again, Oregon law is much more naturist-friendly than Utah's,

                    No doubt about that. And although I'm not sure Utah law is exactly
                    "naturist-unfriendl y" so much as simply "naturist ignorant" or maybe even
                    more like "naturist stupid". You probably heard the sheriff's
                    representative talking to Fox13 describing it as "exposing yourself".
                    That's the mentality here. They can't, or won't grasp that the whole
                    connotation of "exposing oneself" has NOTHING to do with anything I espouse,
                    practice or believe in (or consider naturism to be). (to say nothing of how
                    on earth you somehow turn a group of people skinny-dipping in a typically
                    not very clear watered hidden pool, in the middle of nowhere, AT NIGHT into
                    "exposing oneself")

                    > and it would appear that Utah County officials have their heads too far
                    > up their hind quarters to actually see much light anyway.

                    Indeed. And that is/will be quite an obstacle, I fear.

                    > The fight isn't over though.

                    I suppose it never will be, and although this is a pretty serious setback in
                    my mind, and despite the fact I personally very seldom went to Diamond Fork
                    anyway. Diamond Fork seemed to be about the last hold out here for this
                    sort of thing, and now that one has probably pretty much gone away too :-(.
                    (if you can get by the Utah County Sheriff's department, can you get by Fox
                    13's hidden cameras? - the eyes roll)

                    > We're actively chewing over what can be done on a grassroots level to
                    improve the
                    > long-term big picture for Utah naturism.

                    I want to help, if there can be something that can actually help. There are
                    a whole lot of folks in this state that need to seriously re-think things
                    (as evidenced by a state legislature that UNANIMOUSLY passes a resolution
                    making showering a public locker room a felony - not a single dissenting
                    vote for such idiocy).

                    > I appreciate the dedication and assistance that folks from this group have
                    already shown and I hope it continues to build.

                    Me too, and although I know there are some serious philosophical issues to
                    deal with that have caused disunity and issues even among those who claim to
                    be on the nude side of the cause.

                    I suppose the paranoid in me also needs to mention the reality that this
                    issue may have surfaced far enough and this yahoo group is wide open and its
                    presence posted on public news articles and is at least potentially, if not
                    even likely, infiltrated by those who would see things very differently.

                    > It often takes a setback such as Diamond Fork to ignite a serious call for
                    change.

                    It's a big setback, I hope it ignites something. It should be apparent that
                    what we've been doing isn't working.

                    Lee.


                  • Lee
                    2009 general session. See ( http://www.le.state.ut.us/~2009/bills/hbillint/HB0384.htm ) Lee. From: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 9, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment

                      2009 general session.  See ( http://www.le.state.ut.us/~2009/bills/hbillint/HB0384.htm )

                       

                      Lee.

                       

                      From: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Popeye & Bangles
                      Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 9:20 PM
                      To: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [SaveDiamondFork] ...showering a public locker room...

                       

                       

                      Lee -

                      ...as evidenced by a state legislature that UNANIMOUSLY passes a resolution
                      making showering a public locker room a felony - not a single dissenting
                      vote for such idiocy
                      ...


                      I am compiling a list of "stupid legislature tricks" to send to my naturist friends in The Netherlands, and this seems to more than qualify.  Do you know when was this was passed?

                      - Nkdmn N. Cps


                      From: Lee <justmeina@...>
                      To: SaveDiamondFork@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 8:31:54 PM
                      Subject: RE: [SaveDiamondFork] Re: Trial of nude soakers

                       

                      From: SaveDiamondFork@ yahoogroups. com
                      [mailto:SaveDiamondFork@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of orcoba_2007
                      Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:19 PM
                      To: SaveDiamondFork@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: [SaveDiamondFork] Re: Trial of nude soakers

                       

                      > Not a problem Jim...actually I thought it was a Yahoo glitch,
                      > since according to the home page the settings for this group
                      > indicate that messages are not moderated and go straight to
                      > the board.

                      I moderate or have moderated a number of yahoo groups. Yahoo probably
                      flagged it as spam, based on some bizarre incantation (never figured out
                      what that spell is) which overrides the group settings.

                      > Here in Oregon, we've had a loosely similar issue with a
                      > popular historic hot springs (Bagby) located within the
                      > Mt Hood National Forest.

                      I visited Bagby, once (and wrote about that already and N-magazine published
                      it ( http://www.naturist society.com/ magazine/ detail.jsp? id=520 ), so no need
                      to repeat any of that here). I knew there was some legal ruckus there.
                      Good to know the details. Perhaps excepting the absence of much sun (I like
                      sun ;) it was a nice visit.

                      > It would be nice if Utah County would take note of cooperative
                      relationships
                      > such as this,

                      Wouldn't it though.

                      > but then again, Oregon law is much more naturist-friendly than Utah's,

                      No doubt about that. And although I'm not sure Utah law is exactly
                      "naturist-unfriendl y" so much as simply "naturist ignorant" or maybe even
                      more like "naturist stupid". You probably heard the sheriff's
                      representative talking to Fox13 describing it as "exposing yourself".
                      That's the mentality here. They can't, or won't grasp that the whole
                      connotation of "exposing oneself" has NOTHING to do with anything I espouse,
                      practice or believe in (or consider naturism to be). (to say nothing of how
                      on earth you somehow turn a group of people skinny-dipping in a typically
                      not very clear watered hidden pool, in the middle of nowhere, AT NIGHT into
                      "exposing oneself")

                      > and it would appear that Utah County officials have their heads too far
                      > up their hind quarters to actually see much light anyway.

                      Indeed. And that is/will be quite an obstacle, I fear.

                      > The fight isn't over though.

                      I suppose it never will be, and although this is a pretty serious setback in
                      my mind, and despite the fact I personally very seldom went to Diamond Fork
                      anyway. Diamond Fork seemed to be about the last hold out here for this
                      sort of thing, and now that one has probably pretty much gone away too :-(.
                      (if you can get by the Utah County Sheriff's department, can you get by Fox
                      13's hidden cameras? - the eyes roll)

                      > We're actively chewing over what can be done on a grassroots
                      level to
                      improve the
                      > long-term big picture for Utah naturism.

                      I want to help, if there can be something that can actually help. There are
                      a whole lot of folks in this state that need to seriously re-think things
                      (as evidenced by a state legislature that UNANIMOUSLY passes a resolution
                      making showering a public locker room a felony - not a single dissenting
                      vote for such idiocy).

                      > I appreciate the dedication and assistance that folks from this group have
                      already shown and I hope it continues to build.

                      Me too, and although I know there are some serious philosophical issues to
                      deal with that have caused disunity and issues even among those who claim to
                      be on the nude side of the cause.

                      I suppose the paranoid in me also needs to mention the reality that this
                      issue may have surfaced far enough and this yahoo group is wide open and its
                      presence posted on public news articles and is at least potentially, if not
                      even likely, infiltrated by those who would see things very differently.

                      > It often takes a setback such as Diamond Fork to ignite a serious call for
                      change.

                      It's a big setback, I hope it ignites something. It should be apparent that
                      what we've been doing isn't working.

                      Lee.

                       

                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2678 - Release Date: 02/09/10 12:35:00

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