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Re: existentialism and communism

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  • Deeptanshu Jha
    The current system of prevailing class antagonism strangles the individual, with shallowed minds trained more to distraction than to contemplation and abstract
    Message 1 of 9 , May 8, 2006
      The current system of prevailing class antagonism strangles the
      individual, with shallowed minds trained more to distraction than to
      contemplation and abstract thought. Property mortgage, house rent,
      stock market, class politics, endless commercialization, heavy
      taxation, overproduction... how much space does this leave the
      individual to the fullfilment of his soul?

      Now, let us propound an alternative, on of those endless 'what ifs?'
      to end this debate and resort to commitment, the act beyond the word
      ( a tribute to sartre there).

      All materialistic inequality is removed. The individual transcends
      the government. He is left to himself. No Distraction. His
      obligations are only to himself, as all men have been equated on a
      class basis, his relationship with another individual will be beyond
      any motive of profit. The success of anyone will be solely the
      result of his merit as he has no priviliges of stature to propell
      him. This will not breed difference or classes. There shall be men
      in different fields, pursuing excellence for the fulfilment of their
      soul. What shall the poet hold in envy of the artist's success or a
      chemist to hold for the physicist. Where men compete on intellect,
      proposing, contradicting, progressing, collectively moving towards
      the "fulfilment of the soul" : it will be the idealization of all
      human pursuits.



      --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@...> wrote:
      >
      > I can only agree with you iwith your statement that man being a
      creation with concience and wisdom. But that is there all there is
      to it. We live with our inherent, physical limitations to our
      cababilities. In spite of our conciousness and hundred thousands of
      years evolutions we still live with different physical
      characterstics with each other. Black, white, tanned, short, tall.
      The variations extend to the level of intellegence, physical
      strength and so on. Marx refered to the division of class only in
      terms of trade , occupations and wealth..
      >
      > I am not sure how much i can agree when we say a classless
      society is the most ideal one. Human beings are different from
      other on several fronts. For animals the living pattern within the
      same species is the similar to each other.They eat the same food,
      use one kind of den, and so on. However as for human beings once
      the basic needs are achieved then two individuals go different
      directions in search of fullfiment of his soul .
      >
      > Let us hypothitically assume we created a society with similar
      materaistic abundance-food, shleter, clothing. Do you honestly
      believe the individuals will be satisfied. ?
      > At this stage their needs take on a different plateu. Some of
      them might go after spirituality. While other go in persuit of art
      music or literature. If not any of these, then something that is
      giving them meaning to life . This is essentially human nature. No
      amount of material wealth cannot fill these vacum .
      >
      > Here, following on their quest for fullfilment that is still
      unknown to him will give rise to the establishment of classes- this
      time it si only on a different level. That is, same people,
      identical wealth but with different pursuits.The saga of classes is
      likely to go on...
      >
      > Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@...> wrote:
      > Good reply. But you cite that "the structure of planets, living
      > things and non-living things on earth- they all follow a pattern
      > that is dictated by natural selection". However, these things are
      > not a part continuous evolution. The planets, the sun, the moon
      they
      > have been (since the time the process initiated) following the
      same
      > course over their history. The plants, the animals, they are the
      > neccesarily the same as they were 1000 years ago. The difference
      is
      > that these objects are not gifted with consciousness, they have
      not
      > conceptualized any such thing and their behavior, living habits,
      > have remaned stagnant over the centuries. But what about human
      > beings? No. Human beings evolve, from cave man, stone age, mideval
      > times, etc to this age. And an analysis of this process shows, as
      > marx stated: "The history of all hitherto existing society is the
      > history of class struggle. " Guess I have already said enough on
      > that in my previous thread.
      >
      >
      > --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hierarchy is a nautral phenomon. The universe cannot do away
      with
      > it. Look at the structure of planets, living things and non-
      living
      > things on earth- they all follow a pattern that is dictated by
      > natural selection. As for humans, vibrancy is the essense of
      their
      > existence. Taste, culture, dominance and subjugation- you name
      > everything- rule the charactristic of human bieng. As said we
      have
      > varying needs and those needs have to be provided by others. You
      or
      > I cannot be self contained-
      > >
      > > You wrote-" Marx only reported what he observed, that classes
      > are continually restructuring the hierarchy by overthrowing the
      > class above them"
      > >
      > > True, but each time a class is overthrown another one will be
      > replaced by the abscence of it. Changes defenetely are a cyclical
      > process. For a while we may exist as a classless society. Then
      soon
      > this will be replaced by a different sect who takes control of
      > least demanding workforce whose contribution to society is
      minimal.
      > >
      > > Because machines alone cannot do everything for us.
      > >
      > > In the end it is the material need that keeps us going as a
      > progressesive sociey. You t take the material element away- Then
      you
      > could be right. we live in a classless society.
      > >
      > > But can it happen ?
      > > Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@> wrote:
      > > "Classless society is a myth"? And on what grounds to do you
      > purport
      > > that. Communism is not a system of government. It is notasmuch
      an
      > > economic system either. It is a study of evolution. It was the
      > first
      > > scientific analysis of historical progress. . This will
      eventually
      > > lead to the stage when only one class is left. Then no
      government
      > > will be required to protect the interests of the ruling class.
      > >
      > > In mideaval times tell a feudal lord... the poet, the artisan,
      the
      > > middle class shall take his place in the hierarchy "a myht",
      with
      > > the same confidence he would proclaim.
      > >
      > > Tsar Nicholas II never thought that a quarryman from siberia
      would
      > > succeed his empire.
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > A classless society is a myth. As long humans have needs of
      > varied
      > > kind, then someone has to provide them. Hence different trades
      and
      > > professions with variable remunerations. If you classify the
      > > different occupations as classes then let it be. It is something
      > we
      > > have to live with. Communism does not dictate individual alone
      is
      > > responsible for his actions as opposed to Sartrean thoughts.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > "S.M.Jaffar" <jaffar_sm@> wrote:
      > > > I do not think there is a basic difference betwee the
      > two.What,
      > > at
      > > > present, divides them is the concept of an authoritarian
      > > dictatorship
      > > > introduced by Stalin in a communist system.Communism envisages
      > > > withering away of the state after the end of class conflict
      > > > worldwide.At this stage man will be really free and
      individually
      > > > responsible.S.M.Jaffar
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ---------------------------------
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      > > > Visit your group "Sartre" on the web.
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      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
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      of
      > > Service.
      > > >
      > > >
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      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on
      > Yahoo!
      > > FareChase
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      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      > >
      > >
      > > Visit your group "Sartre" on the web.
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > Service.
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
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      (and
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      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      >
      > Visit your group "Sartre" on the web.
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      Service.
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • mohd sageer
      What shall the poet hold in envy of the artist s success or a chemist to hold for the physicist. . Your statement is interesting... but what is contentious
      Message 2 of 9 , May 12, 2006
        "What shall the poet hold in envy of the artist's success or a
        chemist to hold for the physicist. ".

        Your statement is interesting... but what is contentious here is "do the poet and chemist pursue their field of activity for a living ?...will the state provide them for their daily existence ? If so at what rates ? Does physicist get higher pay than that of a poet ? or vice versa ?

        See, we are back to square one....

        Nobody seems to come up a theory that pragmatically make it possible economcial equality among people....



        Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@...> wrote:
        The current system of prevailing class antagonism strangles the
        individual, with shallowed minds trained more to distraction than to
        contemplation and abstract thought. Property mortgage, house rent,
        stock market, class politics, endless commercialization, heavy
        taxation, overproduction... how much space does this leave the
        individual to the fullfilment of his soul?

        Now, let us propound an alternative, on of those endless 'what ifs?'
        to end this debate and resort to commitment, the act beyond the word
        ( a tribute to sartre there).

        All materialistic inequality is removed. The individual transcends
        the government. He is left to himself. No Distraction. His
        obligations are only to himself, as all men have been equated on a
        class basis, his relationship with another individual will be beyond
        any motive of profit. The success of anyone will be solely the
        result of his merit as he has no priviliges of stature to propell
        him. This will not breed difference or classes. There shall be men
        in different fields, pursuing excellence for the fulfilment of their
        soul. What shall the poet hold in envy of the artist's success or a
        chemist to hold for the physicist. Where men compete on intellect,
        proposing, contradicting, progressing, collectively moving towards
        the "fulfilment of the soul" : it will be the idealization of all
        human pursuits.



        --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@...> wrote:
        >
        > I can only agree with you iwith your statement that man being a
        creation with concience and wisdom. But that is there all there is
        to it. We live with our inherent, physical limitations to our
        cababilities. In spite of our conciousness and hundred thousands of
        years evolutions we still live with different physical
        characterstics with each other. Black, white, tanned, short, tall.
        The variations extend to the level of intellegence, physical
        strength and so on. Marx refered to the division of class only in
        terms of trade , occupations and wealth..
        >
        > I am not sure how much i can agree when we say a classless
        society is the most ideal one. Human beings are different from
        other on several fronts. For animals the living pattern within the
        same species is the similar to each other.They eat the same food,
        use one kind of den, and so on. However as for human beings once
        the basic needs are achieved then two individuals go different
        directions in search of fullfiment of his soul .
        >
        > Let us hypothitically assume we created a society with similar
        materaistic abundance-food, shleter, clothing. Do you honestly
        believe the individuals will be satisfied. ?
        > At this stage their needs take on a different plateu. Some of
        them might go after spirituality. While other go in persuit of art
        music or literature. If not any of these, then something that is
        giving them meaning to life . This is essentially human nature. No
        amount of material wealth cannot fill these vacum .
        >
        > Here, following on their quest for fullfilment that is still
        unknown to him will give rise to the establishment of classes- this
        time it si only on a different level. That is, same people,
        identical wealth but with different pursuits.The saga of classes is
        likely to go on...
        >
        > Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@...> wrote:
        > Good reply. But you cite that "the structure of planets, living
        > things and non-living things on earth- they all follow a pattern
        > that is dictated by natural selection". However, these things are
        > not a part continuous evolution. The planets, the sun, the moon
        they
        > have been (since the time the process initiated) following the
        same
        > course over their history. The plants, the animals, they are the
        > neccesarily the same as they were 1000 years ago. The difference
        is
        > that these objects are not gifted with consciousness, they have
        not
        > conceptualized any such thing and their behavior, living habits,
        > have remaned stagnant over the centuries. But what about human
        > beings? No. Human beings evolve, from cave man, stone age, mideval
        > times, etc to this age. And an analysis of this process shows, as
        > marx stated: "The history of all hitherto existing society is the
        > history of class struggle. " Guess I have already said enough on
        > that in my previous thread.
        >
        >
        > --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hierarchy is a nautral phenomon. The universe cannot do away
        with
        > it. Look at the structure of planets, living things and non-
        living
        > things on earth- they all follow a pattern that is dictated by
        > natural selection. As for humans, vibrancy is the essense of
        their
        > existence. Taste, culture, dominance and subjugation- you name
        > everything- rule the charactristic of human bieng. As said we
        have
        > varying needs and those needs have to be provided by others. You
        or
        > I cannot be self contained-
        > >
        > > You wrote-" Marx only reported what he observed, that classes
        > are continually restructuring the hierarchy by overthrowing the
        > class above them"
        > >
        > > True, but each time a class is overthrown another one will be
        > replaced by the abscence of it. Changes defenetely are a cyclical
        > process. For a while we may exist as a classless society. Then
        soon
        > this will be replaced by a different sect who takes control of
        > least demanding workforce whose contribution to society is
        minimal.
        > >
        > > Because machines alone cannot do everything for us.
        > >
        > > In the end it is the material need that keeps us going as a
        > progressesive sociey. You t take the material element away- Then
        you
        > could be right. we live in a classless society.
        > >
        > > But can it happen ?
        > > Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@> wrote:
        > > "Classless society is a myth"? And on what grounds to do you
        > purport
        > > that. Communism is not a system of government. It is notasmuch
        an
        > > economic system either. It is a study of evolution. It was the
        > first
        > > scientific analysis of historical progress. . This will
        eventually
        > > lead to the stage when only one class is left. Then no
        government
        > > will be required to protect the interests of the ruling class.
        > >
        > > In mideaval times tell a feudal lord... the poet, the artisan,
        the
        > > middle class shall take his place in the hierarchy "a myht",
        with
        > > the same confidence he would proclaim.
        > >
        > > Tsar Nicholas II never thought that a quarryman from siberia
        would
        > > succeed his empire.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > A classless society is a myth. As long humans have needs of
        > varied
        > > kind, then someone has to provide them. Hence different trades
        and
        > > professions with variable remunerations. If you classify the
        > > different occupations as classes then let it be. It is something
        > we
        > > have to live with. Communism does not dictate individual alone
        is
        > > responsible for his actions as opposed to Sartrean thoughts.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > "S.M.Jaffar" <jaffar_sm@> wrote:
        > > > I do not think there is a basic difference betwee the
        > two.What,
        > > at
        > > > present, divides them is the concept of an authoritarian
        > > dictatorship
        > > > introduced by Stalin in a communist system.Communism envisages
        > > > withering away of the state after the end of class conflict
        > > > worldwide.At this stage man will be really free and
        individually
        > > > responsible.S.M.Jaffar
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------------
        > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Visit your group "Sartre" on the web.
        > > >
        > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > > Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
        of
        > > Service.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------------
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------------
        > > > Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on
        > Yahoo!
        > > FareChase
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        > >
        > >
        > > Visit your group "Sartre" on the web.
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > Service.
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US
        (and
        > 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
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        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        >
        > Visit your group "Sartre" on the web.
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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